Boundary Waters Quetico Forum :: Listening Point - General Discussion :: Adding to the BWCA?
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merlyn |
I don't mean displace any private owners and know it would have to be legislated, but even increasing the area by 1% could mean 10,000 acres under the "protection" of the BWCA. I know you can camp in the SNF, but I doubt it gets a fraction of the campers as the BWCA, campgrounds aside and the rules are less restrictive. This is just a thought and a request for opinions and discussion. Please don't beat me up if you disagree. |
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MikeinMpls |
Nice idea though. Mike |
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nofish |
The thing about over crowding is that the permit limit was already set up to help combat this issue so it brings up the question is why is the BWCA still over crowded? Were there always too many permits available but it worked because enough of them went unused? Are there enough people going in the BWCA without a permit at all? Are large single groups breaking up and occupying more than one campsite at a time? Are people staying longer than originally accounted for? I think those questions need to be answered in order to figure out a solution to the over crowding issue. I think the only way for more land to be added to the BWCA would require some chunk of land to exist that seasons like an obvious addition. It would likely have to currently be inaccessible to most recreation use. It would have no have no private landownership issues, and it would have to be free from any mining or logging interest. |
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Savage Voyageur |
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thegildedgopher |
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thistlekicker |
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mjmkjun |
thegildedgopher: "I understand it's been a wild year, but my fear would be that by the time a project like that gets approved and completed and sites are up and running (maybe years), the temporary spike in demand will have already passed us by. If I'm spending theoretical USFS dollars on anything, it's going to be to increase patrols and enforcement in the current wilderness. Personally I see rules violations as a much larger problem than over-crowding this summer. My 2 cents anyway." Well said. Which begs the question, where are the rangers and why aren't they handing out tickets or enforcing the rules in any sort of manner? Nobody wants Covid-19 so wear a mask and respect distancing like the rest of us are doing. (Well, "us" is probably only 50% of the population.) So wear gloves and tag the violation ticket to the damn tent. Ranger says, "Hasta la vista, Baby!" |
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inspector13 |
tonyyarusso: "...This is only about 45 minutes away from my parents' cabin, so I may have to go wander around back there some time and see what there is to see - looks like it's only a few miles from from-sure-legit-road, so we can just bike or walk it." I see someone with the name Yarusso bought land off Highway 2 near where the Dixie used to stand. Any relation? |
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MN_Lindsey |
Folks who have sworn off for years of the BWCA b/c they like the Q better are finding themselves back in the Q. Pair that with the DNR shutting down all reservations to the state parks which didn't open for new reservations until July, coupled with folks wanting to "do stuff" and social distance. ps. Noticed for the first time the names of the Vegetable lakes this year when staying on Alder and looking at the map. I got a kick out of that little pocket. |
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MikeinMpls |
nofish: "The thing to keep in mind is that you are proposing adding acreage to the BWCa to help alleviate overcrowding. If it were to be proposed for that reason alone it would likely get shot down because there are easier ways to limit overcrowding, most obvious would be to limit the number of permits. Rambling about this topic: Is the BWCA actually "crowded" this year, or are just a much higher percentage of permits being taken? I think the latter makes up much of the former. That said, I believe that there are likely more larger groups than usual, or groups merging on a particular lake to make a large group (Fourtown Lake two weeks ago.) I suppose there are groups that enter without a permit, and one large group entering a lake without a permit can certainly give the impression of overcrowding. But in the end, if more permits are being taken than in previous years, and the quota per EP remains the same, it could be argued that the BDub is only at capacity. But it sure feels crowded. Mike |
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Nigal |
MikeinMpls: "nofish: "The thing to keep in mind is that you are proposing adding acreage to the BWCa to help alleviate overcrowding. If it were to be proposed for that reason alone it would likely get shot down because there are easier ways to limit overcrowding, most obvious would be to limit the number of permits. I hope it settles down next year. Also could the increase be because the border is closed? I was supposed to go to Quebec this year but because it is closed I’m going back to the bwca. I’d hate to see the bwca become like Algonquin. |
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missmolly |
MikeinMpls: "nofish: "The thing to keep in mind is that you are proposing adding acreage to the BWCa to help alleviate overcrowding. If it were to be proposed for that reason alone it would likely get shot down because there are easier ways to limit overcrowding, most obvious would be to limit the number of permits. Mike, I always enjoy reading your posts. You're as down to earth as a red pine! |
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MikeinMpls |
missmolly: "MikeinMpls: "nofish: "The thing to keep in mind is that you are proposing adding acreage to the BWCa to help alleviate overcrowding. If it were to be proposed for that reason alone it would likely get shot down because there are easier ways to limit overcrowding, most obvious would be to limit the number of permits. Awww shucks. Thanks! Mike |
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mutz |
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Duckman |
Printing online, pick up windows rather than wandering through the outfitter store, no video and talking to staff. It’s almost like a transition step between real life and the wilderness that new people are missing out on. |
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egknuti |
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jwartman59 |
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K52 |
brp: "One way to “add” to the BWCA would be to make motor lakes electric motor only. Maybe you don't like the motor lakes but a lot of people do. Some of my favorite memories is fishing with my son on Basswood. How about if you don't like the motor lakes leave tham to the people that enjoy them and utilize the vast majority of lakes that don't allow them. I'd like to think that there's plenty of room for both. |
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RunningFox |
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inspector13 |
egknuti: "There was some talk, maybe ten years ago, about adding to the Bwca, but it never went anywhere. There are many areas outside the bwcaw that can provide excellent outdoor wilderness experiences. Some people get caught up in the idea of “being in the boundary waters.” There’s so many places just outside this imaginary line that can rival the bwcaw in fishing and solitude. These areas should be promoted. I’ve spent many nights on lakes just outside the bwcaw without a soul around with good fishing as well. " I remember seeing the wish list. Adding the adjacent Vegetable Lakes area is one thing; but the Seven Beaver Lake area? My secret spots would be ruined. |
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CoffeeInTheWoods |
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rtallent |
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inspector13 |
I didn’t know about the cabin. Too bad. What year did it get burned down? I remember seeing an abandoned boat and wondered how someone got it there though. |
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unshavenman |
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LindenTree |
inspector13: Adding the adjacent Vegetable Lakes area is one thing; but the Seven Beaver Lake area? My secret spots would be ruined. Steve, remember that old cabin you had to boat to on Seven Beavers Lake? I stayed in it a couple times, then someone burned it down. |
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3Ball |
Not too long ago there were many posts about the age of the users increasing and the need to assure the continued use of what is the current wilderness. Also, I am just tired of conflict. |
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scat |
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mychurchmyhome |
Extremely high volume of users this season. It is a national phenomenon. Parks and Forest in Western States were closing due to not being able to keep up with resource damage and garbage... |
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LindenTree |
inspector13: " We used to be able to drive to Seven Beavers, winter and summer. One time someone left a boat in the middle of the landing in the winter. My buddies truck high centered on it and got hung up really bad. He had to cut it up under his truck to get off it. He was driving to the cabin in the winter, the cabin was across the lake, near where the USFS snowmobile shelter is now. (This was 30+ years ago) Cabin was burned down 30 - 35 years ago. My buddy fixed up and stayed in it on weekends, someone squatted in it all summer and when my buddy came up to use it they got into a big fight. Someone burned it down after that confrontation, the cabin was on USFS land, and in fair shape when it burned. |
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inspector13 |
I didn’t know you could drive there. I thought that road was for railroad use only. I got in there via canoe launched from the Skibo public water access about 20 years ago. |
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jillpine |
LindenTree: "inspector13: " That's quite a tale. Enjoy hearing these stories. You should write a little novel, LindenTree. These are interesting! My friend did some botany work in the Sand Lake SNA - said in his three decades of "tromping around, looking", that particular work was in some of those most challenging bog and alder terrain he'd ever passed. This was in 2015 in one of the surveys being done to catalog flora associated with the St. Louis River headwaters area, as part of the PolyMet mining process. |
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GopherAdventure |
inspector13: " I can’t find this area on the maps, is this in the Isabella area? |
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inspector13 |
GopherAdventure: "inspector13: " LindenTree: "Gopher adventure, Seven Beaver Lake is located around 15 miles north of Brimson and 15 miles east of Hoyt Lakes, the lake covers around 3 sections." And as jillpine (Beth) states it is in the headwaters of the St. Louis River a little more than 5 miles southwest of the Sand Lake SNA. That's why I was bit perplexed to see that area on the Friends wish list of land to someday add to the BWCAW. |
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LindenTree |
inspector13: " I was only in there 3 times or so and it was 30+ years ago so I really can't remember how we got there. It seems like I remember crossing some tracks somewhere but it is really foggy in my memory, and way before I started working for the Forest Service. There were 3 or more boats stashed at the landing so others used it as well. I believe your right, those roads are only to be used for official Railroad business, I know it took a high clearance 4 wheel drive to get in there and it was still sketchy. Probably took 1 to 1.5 hours to get back there after crossing the RR tracks. I have no idea if you can drive there now, but I would guess no. Gopher adventure, Seven Beaver Lake is located around 15 miles north of Brimson and 15 miles east of Hoyt Lakes, the lake covers around 3 sections. |
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merlyn |
RunningFox: "Merlyn for President. The larger our population, now at 330 million, the larger our parks need be if we are to preserve pervading solitude. " I would be a horrible pres. but still better than the choices we have now |
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tonyyarusso |
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brp |
Nobody wants to be on the motor lakes. I think and electric only requirement would make the motor lakes more tolerable and have the effect of expanding the BWCA. There is The Rain Forrest Trust that uses private money to buy critical rain forest acreage. I wonder if an instrument like that could be used slowly acquire adjacent properties, return them to a natural state? This wouldn’t take any political lift. I can see a scenario where the trust would pay an owner, firing from the hip here, $50,000 and then in 50 years the property is handed over to the trust....something like that. |
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Savage Voyageur |
brp: "One way to “add” to the BWCA would be to make motor lakes electric motor only. Nobody wants to be on the motor lakes. I think and electric only requirement would I for one would not want to be on a lake like Sag or any of the other huge lakes with only a trolling motor. Battery goes dead on the other side of the lake and you could be in serious trouble. Ever tried to row or paddle a 18’ Fishing boat that has no oar locks? Again a big safety issue for boaters in my opinion. Then there is the tow boat service that most outfitters would loose out on. Think about Moose lake. It has a lot of rental cabins that outfitters and people rent to fishermen who want to use a motorboat. These rules about motor use lakes were estimated at the start of the BWCA. It would literally take an act of Congress to change this law. |
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egknuti |
inspector13: "egknuti: "There was some talk, maybe ten years ago, about adding to the Bwca, but it never went anywhere. There are many areas outside the bwcaw that can provide excellent outdoor wilderness experiences. Some people get caught up in the idea of “being in the boundary waters.” There’s so many places just outside this imaginary line that can rival the bwcaw in fishing and solitude. These areas should be promoted. I’ve spent many nights on lakes just outside the bwcaw without a soul around with good fishing as well. " Oh yes, I forgot about that area! |