Boundary Waters Quetico Forum :: Listening Point - General Discussion :: New Cell Tower Near Gunflint Lake
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pamonster |
But remember the BWCA is part of the National Forrest System so to say people have no business there, even if tongue & cheek, is fundamentally incorrect. It is there for all of us. Our ways in which we enjoy it are, and should be, up to our own digressions . Within the confines of the parks regulations of course. Someone using a phone annoying you is completely your prerogative, not their wrongdoing. That said, I can sympathize with the traditionalist ways many of us prefer to visit the park. To you I say don't let someone else take your enjoyment. You can still take that small step back in time if you allow yourself. Allow that person chatting on their phone up there to bother you 0% and you'll have a much better day. |
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nofish |
Portage99: "It seems on this thread there is an assumption that the majority of local people want the tower. Isn't it possible that some people live in the area because they like the remoteness and lack of technology? I don't have the answer, just curious. " In my opinion it should be the locals decision. If the majority want the tower then put it in, if they don't want then leave things alone. They are the ones who benefit from it so let them make the decision. Non locals who may visit once or twice a year shouldn't have a voice in the discussion. |
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Minnesotian |
How far of a range would a 200' tower get? I can see this tower being able to cover a lot of the Gunflint Trail corridor. How tall are the towers around Ely that people can get reception from while on the north end of Pipestone Bay? That distance is about 15 miles or so. |
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MikeinMpls |
One side....Here's what I fear (rant on): considering the incredible amount of people tripping into the BWCA last summer who had no business being there, I wonder if a cell phone tower like this will only encourage more people to venture out beyond their means. Example: the Fourtown Lake debacle with the group abandoning their canoes and calling the sheriff for a ride home. Those trippers knew they had the backup of a cell phone to call for extraction. Had they not had cell service, maybe they would have been more responsible in their decision to abandon ship. And...then we have the potential for noise as music, streaming, and phone conversations will become a norm. At dusk, I don't want to hear a phone go off and a guy talking to his buddy while he fishes. That noise will carry clear across a lake. (rant off) The other side: I am aware that some of the BWCA is already covered by cell signal. And I am aware that cell coverage will likely save lives. I also understand that this tower will be of great use to the locals. I respect that. There certainly are benefits. Overall, it's "progress" and there will be no stopping it. Mike |
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burrow1 |
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jamdemos |
I understand the need for cell coverage and will welcome it at our property for communication purposes as long as it does not impede the beautiful view around us, currently use an InReach for texting necessary messages or for emergencies. |
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colddriver |
Probably too late, but they could do something like this.... There are tons of cell sites people pass everyday and the general public has no idea. Flag poles, light poles, roof top sites, on top of water towers, carriers have TOW's (Tower on wheels). But soon enough I predict cell towers will be obsolete you will not see them. they will be as rare as a payphone someday.... |
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Zwater |
colddriver: " That is really cool. Great idea... but wait, where did all that metal for the tower come from? |
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Zwater |
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A1t2o |
In reality, I get it. To be in contact on the gunflint would be nice in case something like a flat tire happens. Progress always wins, so why bother getting upset about it. I just won't tell anyone that the possibility of getting ahold of me exists and simply leave my phone on airplane mode to be used as a camera only. If that doesn't work then limited battery life will do the trick. |
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thegildedgopher |
A1t2o: "I just won't tell anyone that the possibility of getting ahold of me exists and simply leave my phone on airplane mode to be used as a camera only." That's the long and short of it, really. We can wax all day about what we think should be done, but this is just the nature of the beast. Communication and technology infrastructure on the edges of the BWCA are going to continue to advance, period. Progress will come more slowly than in urban areas, of course, but it will march forward nonetheless. I imagine the signals from cell towers are going to get stronger over time, as well. These signals don't exactly respect wilderness boundaries. More and more, as trippers we are going to have to choose to cut the signal. |
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adam |
I appreciate not having technology when in the woods, but it was bound to happen. Nothing will piss me off more though if I have to wait to land at a portage while some moron finished a phone call, email, or text message. |
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Minnesotian |
pamonster: "I'm fine with it. But I can also set my phone down at home and am probably one of the rare folks under 40 not on social media....If I don't want it I wont use it. I've also been on several trips that I've had cell service here and there. I agree. You took the words right out of my mouth. And with a lot more grace then I could muster together. |
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pamonster |
Minnesotian: "pamonster: "I'm fine with it. But I can also set my phone down at home and am probably one of the rare folks under 40 not on social media....If I don't want it I wont use it. I've also been on several trips that I've had cell service here and there. |
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bwcadan |
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Birdknowsbest |
2. Outfitters need it to compete esp post covid. A lot of the younger generation wont go somewhere without service. Many do but I think there are more than dont. To attract customers, and new customers, service is needed. Im sure it cant hurt safety there either. 3. Its coming via tower or via satellite whether you like it or not. There are companies that plan blanketing the sky with satellites so everyone can essentially get service anywhere. (see Elon Musk's company Starlink for more info.) I dont know when that is happing, but its gonna happen. You can always choose to leave your phone at home if you wish. |
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fadersup |
The coverage creep might actually be good for small business owners or folks that don't think their job allows them to spend any serious amount of time flying blind in the woods. This will open up doors for some. Agree with Adam, just don't let me hear you talking on the phone unless you're calling for a helicopter! |
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tumblehome |
adam: " Finally, A MOD spouting!! Love it. They are human afterall!! Tom PS, cell tower at the edge of the BWCA= death by a thousand cuts. On Gabbro you can see the nice bright flashing light on top of the tower near Fall Lake. For some reason people think we have no say, we do. |
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Portage99 |
adam: " Wow, now I’m not gonna sleep tonight. That’s the scariest story I’ve ever heard. |
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nctry |
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mutz |
It may just be my opinion, but a 200 ft tower that may or may not have a light, or a cell phone ringing at a portage will mean absolutely nothing if one person has a heart attack at that portage and his/her life is saved because their is cell service. I cannot believe that anyone who lives with no cell service, would say the day after a medical emergency went bad and someone died that they were still glad they didn’t have cell service. |
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nofish |
However, if someone is prone to doing stupid things or being rude and inconsiderate they'll find a way to be that way with or without cell phones. Every nuisance a cell phone may bring is already in the BWCA. People bring radios, people have loud conversations, people are already getting in over their head. I don't really see it moving the needle on these annoyances all that much. If you're like me and don't want to be in contact with the outside world then we have the option of turning the phone off or leaving it in the car. However, there are people who live and work in the area and who could really benefit from cell service. It seems a bit self righteous for me to have an opinion on what services they are allowed to have. |
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tumblehome |
We need a road network to transport personal to and from emergencies. Humans are constantly carving away what the wilderness is supposed to be. When someone says they are indifferent, you have to see the cumulative effect. If one reduction in wilderness is made annually, in 100 years, the effects are substantial. Tom |
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Portage99 |
I watched the transition over the years. In the beginning, it was not acceptable to take your phone into the woods with the ringer on. That was about 15 years ago. Now it’s a free-for-all. It’s just the world we live in. It’s really not as easy as leaving your cell phone at home. Once there’s cell phone coverage throughout the area, it will change the experience. How are you interpret that change depends on your value system. We did somehow managed to survive without cell phones for multiple centuries. Everybody is entitled to their opinion and values and I try to respect that. For me, I know I’m taking a risk going into a wilderness area in terms of a health emergency. However, I get what you’re saying. I especially feel for the outfitters. We went through this with scout camps. Kids won’t go anywhere without their cell phones. They’re also completely dependent on them to function. I took a group of college students on a trip. Some of the students came back and said they were in a super remote area and started panicking. They said they were lucky to make it back to the hotel. The other instructor and I were baffled because there was nowhere remote around us. We were in an urban area. It turns out they happen to be in an area where their cell phones didn’t work. Once we realize where they had been, we had to laugh. It was not remote, was very busy, and all they would’ve had to do is ask somebody. They were completely reliant upon their phone to navigate and communicate. They were terrified when they couldn’t get a signal and didn’t know how to make it back to the hotel. Because of the use of technology, they also are losing the ability to do basic calculations, tell time the old fashion way… There’s no going back now. Plus, we are facing an over population situation. It’s harder and harder to find solitude and actual quiet. Plus, fewer people care about solitude and quiet. |
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billconner |
We have sat phone service already, so right now its just a matter of cost and I suspect the cost of sat phone will decrease substantially incoming years. |
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WIMike |
Here's the link to the CBS Minnesota article but the basic facts are the same as the link in the OP. |
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brp |
make the area available to people that it wouldn’t be otherwise. Notice we are not complaining about radio, ham radio, sat phones being useable in the BWCA.....is this just a matter of “our time” type of thinking? If people bring their phones to use as cameras and have the ability to communicate in an emergency, then the BWCA just became a lot safer. I hope there is etiquette and the feel and norms of the area are maintained. My thinking would be different if the tower was taller and had a light. |
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Portage99 |
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Portage99 |
nofish: "Portage99: "It seems on this thread there is an assumption that the majority of local people want the tower. Isn't it possible that some people live in the area because they like the remoteness and lack of technology? I don't have the answer, just curious. " Right. So what’s the consensus? |
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heavylunch |
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Jaywalker |
Cook County commissioners yesterday gave the go-ahead for ATT to build a new cell tower near Gunflint Lake. It will be under 200 feet tall so will not be required to have lights. They also mention another tower that is already up there near Gunflint Lake but it doesn’t have space to accommodate ATT’s equipment so a new one will be built. WTIP News Article on New Cell Tower |
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inspector13 |
Yep. The existing tower is just before the overlook. |
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Trigger |
However there is a side that no one has brought up. Many on here have chimed in this summer about people breaking the rules with no recourse. Couldn’t cell phones allow real-time reporting of violations? Real time reporting may lead to real time follow up/enforcement.....as opposed to reporting issues days later when you leave the bush. By then the by trail is cold..... |
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Zwater |
Portage99: "nofish: "Portage99: "It seems on this thread there is an assumption that the majority of local people want the tower. Isn't it possible that some people live in the area because they like the remoteness and lack of technology? I don't have the answer, just curious. " Are you local to the Gunflint area? If not, it is none of your concern. If you are, just turn off your phone. Problem solved. |
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mjmkjun |
adam: " In agreement, but you know it's coming. Comparatively, It'll be a 'diminished' experience in 10 more years or so. Technology is friend and foe. |
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KarlBAndersen1 |
Portage99: "Plus, we are facing an over population situation. It’s harder and harder to find solitude and actual quiet. Plus, fewer people care about solitude and quiet." When I was a kid in grade school in the early 60s it was a constant conversation about how OVER POPULATED we were as we could see 200 million coming soon. It was an issue. A serious issue. Now that it's 328 million we never even hear the word. We will watch ALL wilderness disappear. Among other things. |
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fadersup |
KarlBAndersen1: "Portage99: "Plus, we are facing an over population situation. It’s harder and harder to find solitude and actual quiet. Plus, fewer people care about solitude and quiet." Merry Christmas kids! |
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sns |
I'm sure the topography would create lots of coverage shadows, regardless. |
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mschi772 |
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nofish |
Portage99: "nofish: "Portage99: "It seems on this thread there is an assumption that the majority of local people want the tower. Isn't it possible that some people live in the area because they like the remoteness and lack of technology? I don't have the answer, just curious. " I'm not a local gunflint resident so I don't have the answer. |
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colddriver |
SNS: As far as coverage goes, it's up to the RF engineer and system performance guys to point the antennas to get the coverage they need. It is very possible to not have any of the antennas pointing into the bwca. I would have to believe the forest service/law enforcement is responsible for the tower being put up as the cell carrier doesnt really care about the small fry(locals) demands or wants. ($) I have 18 years stacking these towers and installing antennas, I am now retired from climbing but there is sooooo much more that goes into where, why, how a tower goes up. Who's property will this tower be on? As the property owner will be paid anywhere 1200-2300$ a month for lease space??? Follow the money and will will find answers. Feel free to ask any q's Ps: when I started climbing the big talk was one day there will be no such thing as a cell tower it will all be satellite communication call anybody anywhere in the world anytime If you look the way the star link is going we're almost there this was predicted over 35 years ago... |
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billconner |
nofish: "Portage99: "It seems on this thread there is an assumption that the majority of local people want the tower. Isn't it possible that some people live in the area because they like the remoteness and lack of technology? I don't have the answer, just curious. " Would "locals decision" apply to mining also? |
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yogi59weedr |
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RunningFox |
KarlBAndersen1: "Portage99: "Plus, we are facing an over population situation. It’s harder and harder to find solitude and actual quiet. Plus, fewer people care about solitude and quiet." Karl, you and I must have had the same school curriculum. Just went thru another presidential election and heard nothing about population. We need a national conversation about the optimal population for our country. My personal preference would be under 250 million. Chamber of Commerce would undoubtedly be opposed to the conversation. But the ducks, deer, and fish would be on our side. I think we win with the right leaders. |
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Blatz |
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sns |
This is not my area of expertise, but in looking at maps of existing towers I think I have had reception about 15.5 miles away - on a hillside facing the tower (to the south). No idea about the height/topography variables...sounds like this new tower is likely to give a fair amount of coverage in the bwca. And not to hijack, but your other comment about star link is interesting. I've been wondering if/how that will change things. The equipment that beta testers are using is not exactly portable, but I wonder if eventually this will usher in a new type of sat phone and/or new types of inreach/spot devices for wilderness travelers. |
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mjmkjun |
billconner: "nofish: "Portage99: "It seems on this thread there is an assumption that the majority of local people want the tower. Isn't it possible that some people live in the area because they like the remoteness and lack of technology? I don't have the answer, just curious. " :-) |
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Savage Voyageur |
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Birdknowsbest |
Savage Voyageur: "Started out with talking about cell towers, then switched to mining, star link, what next here folks? Squirrel. " Star link is relevant bc the question is about cell service. Via cell tower or satellite it will be everywhere in the near future. |
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Blatz |
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mutz |
billconner: "nofish: "Portage99: "It seems on this thread there is an assumption that the majority of local people want the tower. Isn't it possible that some people live in the area because they like the remoteness and lack of technology? I don't have the answer, just curious. " Would seem that since most of the jobs would probably go to locals, yes they should have a huge say in it. |
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AndySG |
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tumblehome |
Blatz: "A new cell tower isn't going to change anybody's trip. Someone talking on their phone is no different than someone talking to another person. If that bothers you, you need to go to a more remote place. " Well Crickey, We're trying to go to more remote places but technology is impeding our attempts. The BWCA is about the last 'remote' place in the US. I am not 'local' to The Grand Canyon, the redwoods of CA, the Everglades, but does that mean that I do not have a say in our wild places? Am I not allowed to attempt to form policy in places that are important to my heart but not close to where I live? Tom |
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billconner |
Blatz: " You're in charge of your own trip. You could trip like people from 100 years ago if you like. Wood and canvas canoe, canvas tent and packs, cast iron cookware. Your trip is how you make it. " Yeh, but no cans of beans! Drat. |
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Zwater |
tumblehome: "Blatz: "A new cell tower isn't going to change anybody's trip. Someone talking on their phone is no different than someone talking to another person. If that bothers you, you need to go to a more remote place. " Just shut off your phone or don't bring it. Very simple to leave technology behind. This is benefiting the locals, not people who vacation up there. Just a question, do you use an Inreach or SPOT device? |
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Portage99 |
KarlBAndersen1: "Portage99: "Plus, we are facing an over population situation. It’s harder and harder to find solitude and actual quiet. Plus, fewer people care about solitude and quiet." Yeah, sorry to have a little hijacking here. I have to teach this content in global health. It is horrifying actually. This year, I talked about the predictions for ocean fish species. I had one of my students demand to know why somebody wasn’t doing some thing about this. I didn’t have an answer. Guess everyone is counting on going to the moon? Makes me sad. |
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Zwater |
This will help the locals. I don't live up there and have no say in a 200 foot tower (that is outside the BWCA), just like nobody else does who does not live up there. Watch your own bobber... |
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TomT |
The good news is there are alternatives further up north where progress hasn't reached yet. That's if Canada will ever have us back. :) |
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BearBurrito |
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sns |
colddriver: " These Tree/Towers do look pretty good - I have one half a mile from me and there's another over at Afton Alps. If you know what you're looking for, they are pretty obvious, but if not, they can be easy to miss...which is the whole idea. Of course, there's a significant cost delta over the standard tower! |
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bottomtothetap |
colddriver: " This reminds me of how in the TV show "Hogan's Heroes" they once hid their radio antenna in plain site by shaping it like a swastika and mounting it on the roof of Colonel Klink's office. Klink even admired it and thanked the prisoners for their new respect of Nazi symbols! BTW...those of you who have posted here that you are "not on social media"--actually this IS social media. |
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Birdknowsbest |
bottomtothetap: "colddriver: " I would not call this site social media. It essentially only provides info on mostly bwca things related. It does not have the news or other aspects of regular social media like FB Instagram Twitter etc. |
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jhb8426 |
KarlBAndersen1: "When I was a kid in grade school in the early 60s it was a constant conversation about how OVER POPULATED we were as we could see 200 million coming soon..." Over population was the flavor of the day at the time. We have since moved on to other issues and causes. |
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A1t2o |
Zwater: "tumblehome: "Blatz: "A new cell tower isn't going to change anybody's trip. Someone talking on their phone is no different than someone talking to another person. If that bothers you, you need to go to a more remote place. " People not happy about the "invasive technology" are not worried about being connected themselves. It's their kids, co-workers, friends and family that they are going on a trip with that don't put their phones away. It's also other people they run into on portages or that they overhear from the next campsite over. And it's our spouses and other family members that insist on us keeping in touch because they worry. Once it becomes reasonable to stay in touch, it becomes expected and it is hard to fight against those expectations. It is a slippery slope. You can make the argument all you want about not relying on technology if you don't want to, but in reality it is so easy to just let smart phones become common place everywhere, bwca included, and so hard to put up any meaningful resistance for even your own trip. |
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Heyfritty |
Fritty |
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JWilder |
Heyfritty: "Maybe we can get a new message on the information boards at some entry points. “Set your phone sounds to a cricket chirp or some other natural sounds”. :) Loon call! |
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BWPaddler |
Outfitters and residents can join modernity, trippers can choose whether to use or not. It was bound to happen. |
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northallen |
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