Boundary Waters Quetico Forum :: Listening Point - General Discussion ::
|
Author | Message Text | ||
JWilder |
In the OP, I gave you the worst-case scenario. The probability of it unfolding just like I laid it out would be extremely rare. But is not out of the realm of possibility. The concerns raised based on the OP are my concerns as well. I would never work for an employer that isn't somewhat flexible with a new employee, especially in a management position as the one under question. Negotiations are inevitable. There may be an assumption that if you are looking for a new job, you are not happy with your current employment. In my situation, this is not the case. I operate best when uncomfortable. I have been in my current position for 10 years. I have been in this field for 21 years. I am only 39 years old. There is a LOT of gas left in the tank. It is time for that next move. My family is all in. We spend about 24 -30% (if not more) of our life working. You better like what you do!! You better feel meaning and purpose for all of that time and energy spent!! So what really happened? How did it really play out? The process is still unfolding. Time will tell, and so will I when it is finished. Wait for it!! JW |
||
DRob1992 |
|
||
RunningFox |
And the nights are not full enough And life slips by like a field mouse Not shaking the grass Ezra Pound |
||
JWilder |
Canoearoo: "What do you do for a job? " In general; Public Works. Specifically; stormwater treatment and enforcement, construction inspection, water and wastewater utilities. |
||
Canoearoo |
|
||
Cc26 |
|
||
mgraber |
|
||
HowardSprague |
|
||
merlyn |
" Budget the luxuries first" Robert A. Heinlein |
||
schweady |
|
||
PineKnot |
Unas10: "A solo trip involves you alone. The job prospects involve your family's well-being. The choice to be made reveals your priorities. In a similar thought process, what does your wife think? How old are your kids? What do they think? If you're lucky, your wife supports your decision either way...then again, maybe not? If she's happy, you're happy. If she's not happy, well, good luck with that.... |
||
analyzer |
HowardSprague: "Red flags. If they are unwilling to make such easy accommodations with you now, how unwilling will they be once they know you are in the job and need the paycheck every week and are even more in a position of power over you? agreed. |
||
JWilder |
A job in your field of profession opened in a location much closer to where you live. This position is a step or two up from the one you currently hold. It also provides more opportunity, and yes, an increase in salary. It is posted on March 23 and closes on April 20th. You are one of the top candidates and get an interview. Interviews are conducted the week of April 26th. You are notified on 30th that you are THE top candidate and they offer you the job. They are having staffing issues and want you to start ASAP, in exactly two weeks, Monday 17th. You inform them that you would love to accept the position for all of the reasons you applied. But there is one "little" conflict, and that is your planned “vacation” you have had booked since the end of January. You bargain and ask to have your start date pushed back to Tuesday June 1st, the day after Memorial day. They are adamant that with the pressure of the business that they need a person on staff the week of May 17th. One more thing. IF you accept the position. You will be on probation for at least 90 days. No time off. Aside from not knowing how much vacation you will have. You may or may not be able to book a fall trip. It is all up in the air. It is quite possible there will be no trip for you in 2021. Oh yeah, you enjoy your current job. But you really are itching to make some advancement and create a little more opportunity and convenience for yourself and your family. Who knows when this type of opportunity will come around again this close to home. Take it or leave it? What would you do? |
||
Speckled |
If they're completely unwilling to budge and work with you on your already planned vacation...it doesn't seem like a place you'd want to work. Sounds like management is unreasonable and it would be hell working there. So in short, I'd comprimse with the above and if they're unwilling, i wouldn't accept and i'd move on. I say that knowing nothing about your field of work and frequency of opportunity. It may be a tougher call than that. |
||
Northwoodsman |
I actually was in a similar situation in 2019. I had a BWCA trip planned for mid May and another trip to MN planned for July. I had a job offer on March 28th. My new employer allowed me to take both weeks off paid. Not only that but 11 months later I had a medical emergency and they gave me another 7 weeks off with pay. |
||
bwcadan |
|
||
Stumpy |
Speckled: "I would tell them I can start on the 17th, but have an already planned trip May 23rd to May 29th. Let them know you're fine taking it unpaid, as you likely would not have accrued vacation by that point (if that's how thier vaca works). +2 |
||
OldTripper |
How much to you like your current job and coworkers? What kind of "feel" do you have about this new prospect? From what you describe it sounds like it's definitely a step in the right direction career-wise. Me? I'm not sure I'd want to start a new job by forcing my new employer to make his schedule bend around mine. Personally I'd feel like I'm starting off on the wrong foot. Sounds like to tried that negotiation and it didn't go well. If I wanted the new job badly enough I'd take it under their terms and skip my trip. It's only one trip... |
||
Ohiopikeman |
Sacrificing a one week solo trip for the benefits you will achieve from the new job is an easy decision for me - - take the job. Even if you can't get a BWCA trip done this year, you've still got 52 weekends with a number being long weekends were you can get your canoe fix in on your local rivers and creeks. Granted it's not the same as a BWCA trip, but still can be immensely enjoyable. I missed only one BWCA trip with my group since 1991; it was the year that I started a new job in 1994 and the circumstances were similar to yours. I took the job and it worked out great.... no regrets. Good luck with whatever you decide. Dave |
||
gopher2307 |
|
||
mschi772 |
|
||
airmorse |
|
||
Savage Voyageur |
|
||
JWilder |
I will take the opportunity this weekend to spend some time on my property, cleaning up my woods, preparing for the hummingbirds and orioles, and walking with my dogs. And oh yeah, my daughter’s confirmation is this Sunday. Much to be thankful for. I would like to defend the WWYD series I started. It was kind of grouped in with the other BWCA related “games” that fill time during the non-paddling season. No harm. No foul. It is all in good fun. The scenarios shared were REAL. They offered real situations we may all have experienced, or some day will. Some people may use a thing or two they learned. I know I did. When strange lights appear in the distance, I’m lighting it up:) It is time. Let’s get out there and dip our paddles in the water. JW |
||
GopherAdventure |
No need to defend the WWYD series of posts. It’s fun dealing in the hypothetical and hearing others responses. That’s what this forum is all about. To quote the kids these days...”haters are gonna hate”. If someone wants to spend 3 minutes of their day bashing the WWYD series, let them. There’s lots of other minutes in the day for that person to hopefully put some positivity out into the world. I for one, loved the WWYD series. I would check back often just to see everyone’s responses, and I learned some things too. That’s what this site is all about, gaining new skills and knowledge that we may have to use in the field someday. I’m sorry to hear the job didn’t work out, but it sounds like you’re taking it in stride and moving on. It’s time to enjoy the paddle season! Best Wishes, Tony |
||
thegildedgopher |
mschi772: "For me, personally, a hiring employer that is unwilling to honor important plans made before hiring is a red flag to me. My job is not my life, and I am wary of employers that try to cross the line into making themselves the highest priority in empliyees' lives. Deal breaker for me. A BWCA trip isn't some casual 3-day weekend whim. It's a bigger deal and, for most of us, is planned well in advance." This is my thought process for the most part. My concern is not for this trip, which is small potatoes in the grand scheme. It’s for my future happiness working for a company that doesn’t seem to be displaying much empathy. I have made career moves in ladder-climbing mode that had major negative impacts on my well-being and family life. A career change is always a bit of a coin-toss and there are no guarantees. But if they’re giving you these obvious clues up front, you can’t say there were no warning signs. |
||
Wharfrat63 |
mschi772: "For me, personally, a hiring employer that is unwilling to honor important plans made before hiring is a red flag to me. My job is not my life, and I am wary of employers that try to cross the line into making themselves the highest priority in empliyees' lives. Deal breaker for me. A BWCA trip isn't some casual 3-day weekend whim. It's a bigger deal and, for most of us, is planned well in advance." +1 here. My perspective is to tell them you have a prior commitment. When they ask you to cancel the commitment , I would ask the question "if I made commitment to you and cancelled for something better, you would not be happy and you may question my integrity. This is a family matter that I must attend to." Don't tell them it is a vacation. Just say it is a family matter. Because it is important to your family that you are mentally ready for a new job! |
||
airmorse |
I took a new job a few years ago for all the reasons you gave. I explained to my new employer that I had a vacation planned and wished to take it. We agreed that I would start after my vacation. I also explained to my new employer that I wanted to give my current employer a minimum of 30 days notice. Which was also agreed to. Some employers are more agreeing to your terms than others. If they want you bad enough they will agree to your terms. DO NOT BACK DOWN. If they are still unwilling, then use that to your advantage, and bargain for something else. Your canceled vacation for say a sign on bonus, or an extra weeks vacation the following year, or an increase in starting pay. Remember it's a game. Employers want the most they can get from an employee for the least amount of pay. And employees want the most pay/benefits they can get for the least amount of work. It's all a big game. If they do not agree to give you something for YOUR sacrifice I'd probably pass on the job. |
||
woodsandwater |
|
||
Unas10 |
|
||
analyzer |
I'm 56, and have been at my current employment 9 years. One of the most important questions to me going in, was vacation flexibility. I've been going to the bwca for 50 years. It is a life passion for me. There is no where I'd rather be. One brother is an over the road union driver for UPS, the other is an over the "road" locomotive engineer for the BNSF. They both make low 6 figures, but neither one saw a June, July, or August vacation for 25-30 years. If all i want to do, is spend time in the caribbean, that would have worked, but not for someone who wants to spend his vacations in the boundary waters. They also didn't have a shot, at getting hunting season off either. I wouldn't have wanted to start at job at 48, that I would never see a summer vacation. In this what if, the one line says "pressure of the business". That line concerns me, and makes me want to run for the exits. Stress takes years off your life. I'm not sure I want a job that doesn't have any flexibility in time off, and great demand for my time. The job I have, while I can take a week off when I want to, when I'm here, it's highly stressful, and there is rarely a day I don't feel like quitting. It's not a good way to feel on a day in and day out bases. If you love your profession, that might be a different story. Lets say I'm a QB coach, and want to be an offensive coordinator for a college football team, and they want me to start a certain day, for recruiting or training camp, or whatever. There would be lots of pressure in that job, and they can't exactly have an interim when I'm gone. And yes, I would be extremely passionate about that career opportunity, and the ability to move up from QB coach to Offensive Coordinator. So yes, in that example, I would take the job, and put off my boundary waters trip. So I guess it depends a lot on whether it's just another dime-a-dozen JOB, or if it's a life passion career. |
||
TrailZen |
mschi772: "For me, personally, a hiring employer that is unwilling to honor important plans made before hiring is a red flag to me. My job is not my life, and I am wary of employers that try to cross the line into making themselves the highest priority in empliyees' lives. Deal breaker for me. A BWCA trip isn't some casual 3-day weekend whim. It's a bigger deal and, for most of us, is planned well in advance." I'm here, too. Perhaps it's easier for me to align with this point of view, having been retired for several years, but to those who say "the BWCA/Q will still be there next year" I respond "Yeah, but I may not!" TZ |
||
airmorse |
And thanks! |
||
analyzer |
airmorse: "So you applied for this opening...however you are satisfied at your current employer? So if you applied for the new Job then you are not real satisfied. So that is a discontinuity in your thought process. Love this. |
||
scotttimm |
My job doesn't pay crazy well, but has crazy good benefits and a great retirement plan. Plenty of vacation. I get to spend more time working from home and am here to be around the kids a lot. To me, that's worth making less than I would for a private company where I'd be swamped and stressed and never see my family. I value my quality of life more than money, but I'm still securing a comfortable retirement and look forward to enjoying the BWCA with my wife well into the future. I gave up on climbing the ladder a long time ago. Work to live...not live to work. On the flip side, my wife just took a teaching opportunity that is going to mean more work but twice the salary. We have kids approaching college, and have survived on much less for a long time now. She and I are both in our prime-earning years now, so it'll be a big boost when we are on fixed incomes. Also, admittedly, I'm looking forward to having the budget loosen up a bit. Plus this means we can help the kids with college expenses, etc. So I guess I'd say leave it, and my wife would say take it? Either way, it's a good problem to have. Good luck. |
||
GopherAdventure |
Unas10: "A solo trip involves you alone. The job prospects involve your family's well-being. The choice to be made reveals your priorities. True, however, it’s not like the person in this scenario is unemployed if they don’t accept the job. He/she still would have a job to fall back on, so I don’t think it would be selfish to decline the job and take the trip if the employer’s not willing to work with you. The company should think long term, if they really want this quality employee so badly, then they won’t hesitate to work with him/her to keep both parties happy. You’re not powerless in this situation. Ultimately the decision is yours, but you can’t underestimate the value of an employer that values work/life balance. Tony |
||
sns |
airmorse: "So you applied for this opening...however you are satisfied at your current employer? So if you applied for the new Job then you are not real satisfied. So that is a discontinuity in your thought process. I concur with almost all of this. The only bone I will pick is that in fact very often the best candidates for roles (professional level & up) are going to be the ones that are currently employed, engaged, loyal and happy with their current company. IF (and that may be a big if) you can convince that type of person to lift their head and look outside, they are so often your most desirable candidate. The loyal, highly-qualified person who does not have a current resume. Bingo. So I do not see this as a discontinuity at all (& it's in my professional wheelhouse). Otherwise, I will say airmorse is providing intelligent counsel here (beyond just playing our fun "What would you do while waiting for the ice to thaw" game). |
||
missmolly |
|
||
MHS67 |
I like to do things in scenario's. #1 In the interview, after they offer you the job, you thank them for the confidence in your ability to do the job. At an appropriate time to bring up the vacation you have planned. They explained to you there position, and need you right away because of business issues. You come back with, I understand that this is an important position for the company and I will postpone my vacation till a latter date. #2. Again in the interview, After thanking them, tell them about your planned vacation. They explain there position for wanting you asap. You start to try and bargain with them, with more money, better benefits or whatever. Or just start to back peddle on the job. Right know you would have to be an extremely good interviewer not to show some attitude here!! Put yourself in the bosses position Now. Which person (scenario) would you want working for the company? In the end it's a decision only you can make. |
||
sns |
airmorse: "From an employer standpoint you are 100% correct. You are welcome! And while my point of view is generally the employer side, I think we could craft a cohesive and possibly coherent argument that it can be true from the employee side, too. However this will require another cocktail... ...to be continued... |
||
sns |
sns: "airmorse: "From an employer standpoint you are 100% correct. Ok, Cocktail Acquired. "Caring About Veering Off-Topic" has been Deactivated. Cohesion meter dodgy. So I think that the candidate in the aforementioned situation may be loyal, highly qualified, with not a thought in the world about updating the resume and considering something new. BUT (and I have had this conversation many times) - that's the time when you, the employee (on average) carry the Greatest Market Value. Ever hear the expression 'the best time to find a job is when you have one?' It's that, in a tuxedo. Or burrito. I forget. But the point is that the employee's value may (not always, of course) be inversely related to their interest in a change. As always, YMMV. Tomorrow I might even apologize for going so far afield from the original thread. But not tonight! |
||
mschi772 |
TrailZen: "mschi772: "For me, personally, a hiring employer that is unwilling to honor important plans made before hiring is a red flag to me. My job is not my life, and I am wary of employers that try to cross the line into making themselves the highest priority in empliyees' lives. Deal breaker for me. A BWCA trip isn't some casual 3-day weekend whim. It's a bigger deal and, for most of us, is planned well in advance." I spent many years not doing things I desperately wanted to do (like visit the BWCA), and the rationale every time was, "I'll do it next year." Next year, next year, next year. Every year I didn't go was another year of my life that I never went, and those years were adding up. You don't get a re-do on any of them, and we only have so many years before they're gone. My solution was to leave that career and start my own business as a means of ensuring that I could have the freedom I needed to not let another year slip into the past again. |
||
airmorse |
sns: "airmorse: "From an employer standpoint you are 100% correct. Agreed. |
||
RunningFox |
I recommend you do what your heart tells you, and not your head. What would you tell a friend to do? Do that and don’t look back. |
||
JWilder |
Here are the facts: Yes, there is a real job opportunity soon to be available (next week). The scheduled hours will be the same. 40 hours a week. The responsibility is more. But so is the wage. This is in the public sector. Not private. It is closer to home. Benefits and insurance will be similar. Here is what is "up in the air": How long the job will be posted. When interviews will be scheduled. When the proposed start date will be. I am familiar with the hiring process timeline, so I think it will be close to what I have assumed. I did make the employer out to be a bit negative. I don't believe that to be the case, but that was for the sake of this scenario. It does exist. And you have to be prepared for such conflicts. IF it did come down to the scenario in question. I believe there would be room for negotiation for sure. We would come to terms with something that would be beneficial to all parties involved. That includes a trip to the woods. Then I can come back and hit the ground running. If not. Red flag and I am out. I still have a great job. And oh yeah, a solo trip I need to start packing for... I will let you all know how it turns out. JW |
||
JimmyJustice |
|
||
JWilder |
|
||
analyzer |
JimmyJustice: " try not to say no too often because they may stop asking. " I wish someone had given me that advice about girls, when I was younger. |
||
Dreamer |
1. Do I really tolerate 50 weeks in a year for 2 that I live for? If what you do daily hold less purpose than a solo trip to the BWCA, then you need a new career. I love the BWCA and take two trips annually. But my life is lived in the other 50 weeks. I'd gladly sacrifice a camping trip (a beautiful hobby) for my real dreams. 2. Is my family my priority? Self explanatory... 3. What does my wife really think? I don't know if you're married or not, but if you are, listen to her, and read between the lines. She's probably right. 4. What do my parents think? Even all grown up, it's honoring to at least find out their thoughts. When you honor them, you invoke blessing on your life. 5. Finally, but most importantly, if you know the Lord, pray about it and ask Him to give you direction. He always gives wisdom to those who wait upon Him for wisdom. Blessings on your journey! |
||
Unas10 |
RunningFox: " The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Jeremiah 17:9 Do NOT look just to your heart. I would wager that that advice has ended more marriages and lead to more bad decisions than any other well intentioned piece advice ever given. |
||
missmolly |
Unas10: "RunningFox: " My favorite prof in college agrees with Jeremiah. The prof said, again and again, that "feelings aren't facts." JWilder, as regards asking others, I think people do this too little...or rather they ask, but don't listen. Most of us have easy access to expertise. I know a guy who can fix anything. So, when something is broken, I solicit his advice. I have a sister who's great with money. So, when it comes to finances, I go to her. And so on. The key is to apply their advice rather than mistakenly thinking that we know better. In short, I defer to experts. |
||
JWilder |
Dreamer: "Questions I'd be asking myself... You have hit on some important points that have come up often in this thread. They are worthy of my feedback. 1) I like your thought process here! I will add that my current job is enjoyable and it brings real meaning and purpose. No need for a career change at all, just more of a leadership role responsibility. I look at all situations as opportunity. I am still at the age where I am excited about taking on the next challenge in life. Here it is presenting itself. 2) Family is priority. Most everything I do is for them. Even the things I do for myself will inadvertently impact them. Like a healthy 6 days in the bush:) 3) My wife is in the mix of all the decisions I make. She is my counselor. Most of my final decisions are OUR final decisions. She's great. The fact that I can solo travel should be proof of that! 4) Hmmm. Never thought to ask my parents. They trust OUR judgment and final decision-making. So, I gladly share with them the +'s and -'s of each scenario. But they will say to do what is best for your family. 5) This should be #1. JW |
||
Unas10 |
|
||
RunningFox |
Unas10: "RunningFox: " If people followed their head, they wouldn’t get married. Right? To begin with the odds of it lasting suck. Use your head and look at the divorce rates. Of course a gold digger might have an argument supporting the “use your head” approach. Chances are we never know our own head. Think about it, and you’ll see what I mean. |
||
RunningFox |
missmolly: "Unas10: "RunningFox: " Miss Molly, you are no doubt more educated than I. However, My best memories are of feelings, not facts. Sing we for facts? No offense intended. I can recite Ezra, not Jeremiah. Cause it feels better to me. And that’s a fact. |
||
nctry |
|
||
BearBurrito |
|
||
bhouse46 |
My thoughts. Will this workplace support the growth you seek in an environment you will feel good about or do their algorithms not fit yours? You have had conversations with folks representing this opportunity. These are times folks with jobs can shine through inquiring about the work environment and work processes. I like to walk through a work area or several if possible. A lot can be learned noting the buzz or lack of life being demonstrated. A question about the resources to getting the job done can say a lot about job satisfaction. And if you want to not get the job ask how a good idea developed on the floor gets to the decision makers... My point is you have a job in hand, make sure this new one is better and that is the task of the job seeker who will advance. Interviewing is a two way process and good employers appreciate that. The BWCA will likely still be there if this is the right job for you. |
||
scat |
|
||
Speckled |
Dreamer: "Questions I'd be asking myself... That's insightful and fairly thought provoking. |
||
KawnipiKid |
|
||
analyzer |
JWilder: "Canoearoo: "What do you do for a job? " I have a niece working on some sort of environmental engineering at the U of M. She is looking for an internship. She's very smart, and very likable. Do you have any internships available in your field? |
||
JWilder |
DRob1992: "Coming from a young man who wants nothing to do with a career, I'd say go on your trip - even if it means having to pass on your new job opportunity. Granted, I'm broke and living life on the road out of my RV. May not be wise accepting advise from someone who lives as spontaneous and carefree as me. With all do respect. What created your decision to want NOTHING to do with a career? Or even a job? What in your life provides you with meaning and purpose? Again. I only ask to understand. JW |
||
JWilder |
analyzer: "JWilder: "Canoearoo: "What do you do for a job? " Not currently. My recommendation is for her to contact the MPCA. If she hasn't already. I will think more on this. |
||
scotttimm |
GopherAdventure: "JW, +1 on all counts. I loved the series and hearing people's responses. You literally have to click on the thread to read it, so I'm not sure what the fuss was about. There were multiple threads where I learned something new, or thought about new strategies in tough situations...so think about it that way, you've made a mark and a difference with your idea, it was worth it! I was pulling for you with the new gig and the tough decision. I hope you are not taking it too hard. Don't let the bastards get you down. |
||
Canoearoo |
|
||
KawnipiKid |
|
||
nctry |
|