Boundary Waters Quetico Forum :: Listening Point - General Discussion :: Noobs
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mjmkjun |
treehorn: "mjmkjun: "It's curious that an outfitter would outfit newbies with bentshaft or bent blade paddles. Recommending straight, lightweight paddles for the inexperienced would be a no-brainer. " agreed, but my post was based on comments of many newcomers using those paddles backward. why is this? bcuz they were not shown the proper way to paddle with this new design, perhaps? one can't hold a straight paddle backward, eh? |
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andym |
Stumpy: "working 7 years at an outfitter in the 70s & 80s, I think I've seen it all. There’s a great book about the dumb things customers say in bookstores and it sold a lot of copies. BWCA camping won’t have as big a market but I bet a book like that would find some appreciative readers. |
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Stumpy |
If I type all the stories, I want it in a book, and I want to get paid. |
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AmarilloJim |
colddriver: "Love the quotes lol |
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x2jmorris |
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Soledad |
Craig K: "LOL, I've been (car) camping all my life. What a crazy trip that was! I remember your boys' sleeping bags were soaked and you gave them yours and you went without on the last night. Must have been a long night. You always remember your first! |
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treehorn |
mjmkjun: "It's curious that an outfitter would outfit newbies with bentshaft or bent blade paddles. Recommending straight, lightweight paddles for the inexperienced would be a no-brainer. " Why is this? As long as you're holding it the right way, isn't it simply a superior way to paddle, beginner or not? |
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missmolly |
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andym |
I don’t bother to correct people unless I have another reason to be in a conversation with them. The couple on Polly paddled up to our campsite to make sure they knew where they were. They did. Which is good because map reading is more important than how you hold a paddle. |
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Soledad |
I was thinking about this the other day after helping a group of nine folks from Georgia find the Kawishiwi river. They had just crossed Farm Lake and were paddling backwards into the waves because they couldn't turn the canoes. It wasn't all that windy, but it was a little wavy on that side of the lake. They were using bent shaft paddles and everyone of them were backwards. Not a big deal, but you could tell pretty quick that their canoe experience was lacking. Anyway, they were looking for a portage. There aren't any portages at all on Farm Lake. You could tell pretty quick that their map reading skills were lacking. We stopped to help and gave them as much advice as I could think of. They were heading into Gabro Lake, and I told them that they should try to find a site on Clear lake instead since it was after 1:00 and then try to get a site on the lower triangle or Gabro the next day. This sort of stuff happens often by our cabin. One year, a group made it across the lake and promptly turned broadside to the waves and flipped. They and their gear went over. They were so mad! They asked us to bring them back to the boat access. We talked with them and convinced them to stay one night in the BWCA. They did and then paddled out the next day and went home. I get a kick out of first timers. I love to help them, but I always wonder how their trip was and if they overcame all of the challenges presented to them. I understand how folks can find themselves in over their heads pretty quickly in the BWCA. It is a challenging and wild place, different than most places in the good ol' USA. With cell/sat phones, SPOT devices, etc., I would bet there will be more and more calls for help. Also, outfitters need to do a better job telling their clients which way a bent shaft paddle is to be used. |
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schweady |
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Spartan2 |
But I was a newbie. I had been in a canoe on the Red Cedar River, which flows quietly through the Michigan State University Campus. My camping experience was limited to a few childhood sessions at YMCA camp or scout camp and I don't think I was ever in a canoe then. I was blessed that my first trip was with a partner who had some experience, but I was also not really prepared mentally for what I was going to go through. I can still remember when we stopped at Camp Easton for lunch on the day before our trip and Doug Bobo (the camp owner and director) looked at the map of our proposed trip, and turned to me and said, "Lynda, this isn't like canoeing on the Red Cedar!" I began to shake in my tennis shoes. We all have to learn how to do a canoe trip if, indeed, we want to do one. And if everyone in the party is a newbie, I just shudder to think about all of the things that can go wrong. To this day, many years later, I am still thankful that I had an experienced guide and teacher when I went on my first adventure. And yes, the outfitter should SHOW those folks how to use their paddle correctly. (Tried to add a link to our first trip, "How It All Began", but it didn't work.) |
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nctry |
Gotta hand it to them for not breaching and flipping. |
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mschi772 |
I do wish that people with such limited skills and experience would find someone more experienced to go with and learn from instead of trying to figure it all out on their own. They'd be so much safer and learn so much more and faster. I can't help but think of how many groups are going out there so eager yet ill-prepared, and here I am with all my experience trying to get any of my friends to join me for trips like pulling teeth. |
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alpinebrule |
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Wables |
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WhiteWolf |
Respect all around. |
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jillpine |
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airmorse |
True, but we were also more respectful of others and of our surroundings. |
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andym |
For helping beginners, I once did teach two newcomers how to hold their bent shaft paddles. They were sure the outfitter told them the other way. BTW, we were on Polly at the time. So they made it pretty far holding them backwards. We had a lot of camping experience and a good bit of canoeing experience and we’re still glad to go on our first trip with experienced friends. And have had no greater joy than sharing what we’ve learned with friends and family on later trips. |
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MikeinMpls |
andym: "Every once in a while, I like to commit the ultimate sacrilege on an internet site: suggesting a book. Because newcomers don’t know what to ask, a book can be really useful. Cliff Jacobsen has written some good ones. Reading one of his basic canoe camping books before our first trip helped me. While you can find everything online, a book is organized. To name drop just a bit...I was fortunate to go on two trips with Cliff Jacobson when I was in high school. Both were through school groups where Cliff was one of the science teachers. Of every one of my friends who went on those trips, I'll bet I am the only one who still trips regularly. Cliff was quirky, but he knew his stuff, and I am blessed to have knowledge instilled by one of the greats. I remember on one of the trips he was beta testing a Cannondale tent. Yes, a Cannondale tent. Those exist only on "vintage" photo pages now. Incidentally, Cliff invited me to go on one of his Canada trips the summer after I graduated college. For family reasons, I was unable to go. I am still bummed about that. I think reading his book is a great idea for newbies and outfitters should encourage it. Mike |
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dschult2 |
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mjmkjun |
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outsidethebox |
Information may be increasing but intelligence remains a constant-at best...actually, intelligence is likely on the decline. |
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Cc26 |
dschult2: "We were all new at one point so honest mistakes really don't bother me at all. What really irritates me is that in this day and age of vast internet resources, especially YouTube is that some people won't bother to do the research of what skills they're going to need or the places that they will be going. My thoughts exactly. Youtube is your friend - home repairs, outdoors, knot tying, literally anything you could want to research and learn how to do step by step - there is a video or twenty on it. Even browsing around on here helps me before every trip - I'm still learning tips and tricks |
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R1verrunner |
It was very obvious that they had no clue. Bent shafts backwards. some standing, some in the canoes at the end of one of the portages with a what do we do now look. All their PDFs strapped to their packs. And yes they were not wearing or going to put them on. I gave them some advice the women were very receptive. The men gave us the what do you know look. What do a couple of old farts know. Seem to take it better when we told them we had over 50 years of coming to the BWCA. When they shoved off the PFD were still strapped to their packs. I told them at least their packs would be found. Deer in the head lights moment. Wished them luck told them about some good camping sites. Off we went. We were all new at one point. |
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THEGrandRapids |
I grew up canoeing river systems, not whitewater, not float plane access only wilderness, just basic rivers that meandered no more than a crappy half day walk back to the nearest highway. My first trip in the BWCA I think I did get laughed at for how I packed. I loaded that sucker down. We were rocking an umbrella for sun as well as a little sail down wind. I had two groups pointing and taking pictures. Don't be an elitist. Don't be a gatekeeper. Help when you can, you never know one of those "noobs" may be the one that finds your SOS and hits the button when you have a heart attack. |
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andym |
What could be interesting on a site like this is a pinned post with links to key threads for beginners to read. |
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Captn Tony |
Sad part is I still don’t know how to post after all these years! |
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Northwoodsman |
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MagicPaddler |
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Blatz |
Cc26: "True, but lots of people don't know what they need to know. It's usually the people who saw up with just money and clothes that don't do the research needed .dschult2: "We were all new at one point so honest mistakes really don't bother me at all. What really irritates me is that in this day and age of vast internet resources, especially YouTube is that some people won't bother to do the research of what skills they're going to need or the places that they will be going. |
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Captn Tony |
MagicPaddler: "A few years ago while on a solo I was at the end of my second and last carry and at the landing was 9 aluminum canoe. They were all tight against each other with the bow near shore. No one could get out and they were discussing what to do next. I just turn and walked in the water down to where I could set my canoe down and dropped my small pack in and grabbed my other pack from shore and loaded it. With no solid ground near I spread my legs and pulled the canoe through setting down in the seat. Put my feet up on the gunnels to drain and started paddling away and from the crowd behind me I hear the several voices say in unison “So that’s how your supposed to do it”. They were having a good time and so was I so all was good. " I got a good laugh at that quote, I’ve said “so that’s how you’re supposed to do it “ more then once in my life, in fact I’ve said it way too many times! |
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Captn Tony |
Decided that I’m not paying extra for renting bent shafts for noobs anymore! |
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Soledad |
Until you get to the part about putting a ground cloth inside the tent! Sheesh! ;) |
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THEGrandRapids |
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MikeinMpls |
My guess is that outfitted clients find the bent-shaft paddles pretty cool, and outfitters find they are a good "selling point" so-to-speak. But I am just floored by how many people use them backwards! From a strictly logical "what-does-it-look-like" point of view, it would appear that "backwards" use makes the most sense. So I get it. I am always so tempted to offer just a wee bit of advice to paddlers using them incorrectly, but I keep my mouth shut. Instead, I hope that seeing two experienced paddlers (my wife and I) using bent-shaft paddles correctly might register. Overall, not a big deal. As for other comments: yes, we were all noobs once, and I think that's a great perspective to take. My first trip ever to the Bdub I packed everything in an Army duffel bag. I was so cool: everything was labeled and organized and in really thin plastic garbage bags for protection. Everything got wet anyway. I've seen a lot of people fall in the water on portages, and invariably it was because those people did not want to get their feet wet. It is fun watching newer groups' reaction when I walk right into the water, a la MagicPaddler, and put the canoe in with nary a ripple. It feels nice when someone says "you look like you know what you're doing" and "looks like you've done this before." Mike |
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jhb8426 |
I've also advised people not to venture to Alton when Sawbill was rough. Met a family of 5 in two canoes on a windy day on Sawbill. Mom and dad and a 6-7 year old in one boat, 10 to 12 year old sons in the other. They were having trouble on Sawbill. We got to Alton at the same time. I advised them that Alton would be worse, and it surely was. We both turned back after observing the Alton launch conditions. The waves into the Alton launch were a foot high or more and higher as you went out. Mom and dad might have made it but the two boys would not have. I was glad they took my advice. |
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HighnDry |
Captn Tony: "MagicPaddler: "A few years ago while on a solo I was at the end of my second and last carry and at the landing was 9 aluminum canoe. They were all tight against each other with the bow near shore. No one could get out and they were discussing what to do next. I just turn and walked in the water down to where I could set my canoe down and dropped my small pack in and grabbed my other pack from shore and loaded it. With no solid ground near I spread my legs and pulled the canoe through setting down in the seat. Put my feet up on the gunnels to drain and started paddling away and from the crowd behind me I hear the several voices say in unison “So that’s how your supposed to do it”. They were having a good time and so was I so all was good. " |
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colddriver |
Another good I herd was from a kid in the outward bound program,chatted to the kids on a portage, most of them broke the law and this was there punishment a few weeks in the wilderness. Anyway at the end of the portage the one kid asked me what I did (how I broke the law) I laughed and said I'm on vacation!!!! He said you do this for fun? He was dumbfounded.... lol!!!!! |
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HighnDry |
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Gaidin53 |
My son and I still cringe and laugh about it! I probably walked a good 8 steps before the grinding stopped. Not sure if they were noobs and it wasn’t an outfitter rental canoe. Ryan |
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Craig K |
My first trip to the BWCA was in 2005 or 2006 and WOW did I make a LOT of mistakes. Definitely wasn't well prepared, good thing Soledad was part of the group I was in! It was a big learning experience for me (and my kids). Completely changed how I go camping. Must have liked it though as I have been on many BWCA trips since, even lead the Boys Scouts on a half a dozen or so trips up there. Currently planning on 7-1 trip to Lake Polly. If I haven't said it before Soledad, Thanks for taking the time to help out the "NOOBS" |