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06/10/2021 08:04AM |
airmorse: "This isn't about "new" people going to the BWCA and not knowing the rules. This is a example of complete and total lack of respect and a feeling that people can get away with anything and not be responsible for their actions.
Unfortunately the USFS doesn't have the manpower to oversee. It would be nice to see more DNR and a few troopers assigned to the BW."
+2
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06/09/2021 09:57PM |
We saw huge groups of campers, no campsites were open on Ensign. We heard gun shots from a neighboring campsite after dark. Never have I witnessed this before. Trash all over the campsite, towels in the woods, fishing lures and line by the lake. Just sad.
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06/09/2021 10:25PM |
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06/10/2021 10:43AM |
This may be a good time to relearn the old skills in preparation for the next "dark ages": It may be sooner than you think. Not predicting, just saying. Knowledge never hurts.
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06/10/2021 07:25AM |
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06/09/2021 11:00PM |
Also the nerve of a group trying to talk someone into leaving a campsite they are already established in because they have more people? That is just way out of line on etiquette! I guess they figured they were more important! Something like that would have really made me mad and would have negatively affected that trip for me. I hope you were able to get past it and find your groove after that again.
Ryan
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06/10/2021 09:07AM |
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06/10/2021 10:59AM |
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06/10/2021 11:51AM |
We picked and packed out the garbage, cut up and split the trees that had been cut down around the camp, carried the brush way back into the woods, and rebuilt the log benches to "hide" the charcoaled part.
The site is in great shape now...hopefully it can stay that way.
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06/10/2021 12:15PM |
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06/10/2021 12:29PM |
Wayouttroy: "I think all people have an inter voice that says “am I doing or about to do the right thing? Call it common sense or Gods spirit speaking,I feel we have all experienced this feeling. I feel every body has some common sense , some just don’t know how to apply.I wonder how the person who defaces trees in the BWCA or on any public land would feel if someone would do that to there back yard trees?"
This is called your conscience. People have perfected the art of ignoring it...
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06/10/2021 12:56PM |
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06/20/2021 01:36PM |
chessie: "This is so sad, and not new. Probably just worse in past 1-2 years. I honestly think axes in BW ought to be forbidden.
The worst "mess" we've ever encountered was on Ensign, and this was in ~1998. Upon entering the lake from a portage, we saw a MOTORIZED boat go by (we reported this to rangers later). It was getting well into evening - so we grabbed the only open site we saw. There was crap everywhere - literally. A dirty diaper, fishing pole, food waste, parts to a pack, etc. It was just gross. The next morning we had the best otter watching during a.m. coffee on the rocks we've ever had :) ! The guys at a neighboring site told us the previous party had left our site "in a hurry" because wolves came into their camp. I highly doubt that happened. More likely the left over THC joint we found on the fire grate had something to do with their idiocy.
I can forgive a certain amount of newbie naivete - but not this wanton destruction. Maybe it's time a group like this put our minds together to come up with some proactive / actionable / doable ideas and make a proposal. ??"
Not trying to be a troll by any means but I heard a great bit one time in regards to THC usage. It was something along the lines of, "A person's character and years of good or bad habits define that individual. THC doesn't do much in regards to whether that individual is lazy, motivated, etc." I can honestly say that I know hundreds of great, caring, passionate, nature-loving men and women who use THC regularly and, 10 times out of 10, would clean up camp, follow the Leave-No-Trace code, and even provide firewood (deadwood - not cutting into a live tree) for the next party. In summary, THC has nothing to do with people leaving a mess and acting like degenerates.
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06/20/2021 02:45PM |
DRob1992: "chessie: "This is so sad, and not new. Probably just worse in past 1-2 years. I honestly think axes in BW ought to be forbidden.
The worst "mess" we've ever encountered was on Ensign, and this was in ~1998. Upon entering the lake from a portage, we saw a MOTORIZED boat go by (we reported this to rangers later). It was getting well into evening - so we grabbed the only open site we saw. There was crap everywhere - literally. A dirty diaper, fishing pole, food waste, parts to a pack, etc. It was just gross. The next morning we had the best otter watching during a.m. coffee on the rocks we've ever had :) ! The guys at a neighboring site told us the previous party had left our site "in a hurry" because wolves came into their camp. I highly doubt that happened. More likely the left over THC joint we found on the fire grate had something to do with their idiocy.
I can forgive a certain amount of newbie naivete - but not this wanton destruction. Maybe it's time a group like this put our minds together to come up with some proactive / actionable / doable ideas and make a proposal. ??"
Not trying to be a troll by any means but I heard a great bit one time in regards to THC usage. It was something along the lines of, "A person's character and years of good or bad habits define that individual. THC doesn't do much in regards to whether that individual is lazy, motivated, etc." I can honestly say that I know hundreds of great, caring, passionate, nature-loving men and women who use THC regularly and, 10 times out of 10, would clean up camp, follow the Leave-No-Trace code, and even provide firewood (deadwood - not cutting into a live tree) for the next party. In summary, THC has nothing to do with people leaving a mess and acting like degenerates."
+1000
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06/14/2021 03:24PM |
I saw a lot of green branches, green beaver wood, and green trees cut down and attempted to be burned. What kind of idiot looks at a 5" live standing pine tree in camp and thinks "Firewood!"
I picked up a lot of trash in the camps I stayed at on LLC and Crooked the last two weeks.
I also saw 15 people in 7 canoes together, obviously in a group, on Crooked. The Rangers were there earlier in the week and they were checking people, so at least they are trying.
Joe
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06/20/2021 08:31PM |
DRob1992: "This introvert is impressed: I cannot say that I know hundreds of people that well! Neither you nor I can say how THC affected those specific individuals. I did not intend to imply that all folks who smoke pot are messy. Rather, upon learning that the party hastily packed up and abandoned their camp late into the night because a "pack of wolves" invaded their campsite gave me pause, especially upon finding the pot 'leftovers' -- in any event -- the more important gist is what to do about the worsening problem as noted in the original post.chessie: "This is so sad, and not new. Probably just worse in past 1-2 years. I honestly think axes in BW ought to be forbidden.
The worst "mess" we've ever encountered was on Ensign, and this was in ~1998. Upon entering the lake from a portage, we saw a MOTORIZED boat go by (we reported this to rangers later). It was getting well into evening - so we grabbed the only open site we saw. There was crap everywhere - literally. A dirty diaper, fishing pole, food waste, parts to a pack, etc. It was just gross. The next morning we had the best otter watching during a.m. coffee on the rocks we've ever had :) ! The guys at a neighboring site told us the previous party had left our site "in a hurry" because wolves came into their camp. I highly doubt that happened. More likely the left over THC joint we found on the fire grate had something to do with their idiocy.
I can forgive a certain amount of newbie naivete - but not this wanton destruction. Maybe it's time a group like this put our minds together to come up with some proactive / actionable / doable ideas and make a proposal. ??"
Not trying to be a troll by any means but I heard a great bit one time in regards to THC usage. It was something along the lines of, "A person's character and years of good or bad habits define that individual. THC doesn't do much in regards to whether that individual is lazy, motivated, etc." I can honestly say that I know hundreds of great, caring, passionate, nature-loving men and women who use THC regularly and, 10 times out of 10, would clean up camp, follow the Leave-No-Trace code, and even provide firewood (deadwood - not cutting into a live tree) for the next party. In summary, THC has nothing to do with people leaving a mess and acting like degenerates."
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06/10/2021 12:52PM |
airmorse: "This isn't about "new" people going to the BWCA and not knowing the rules. This is a example of complete and total lack of respect and a feeling that people can get away with anything and not be responsible for their actions.
Unfortunately the USFS doesn't have the manpower to oversee. It would be nice to see more DNR and a few troopers assigned to the BW."
Yes. People feel entitled to do whatever, without regard to others.
On the first morning of our recent trip, a group of three young men pulled up and started fishing right in front of our site, which is outside of courteous imo, but whatever. However, they blathered on constantly for almost 45m on a very still morning - while we were sitting there eating breakfast.
My take at the time was that they were just clueless idiots, but my wife reminded me that plain disregard for others is pervasive and growing. What we're seeing in the BWCA is just a sliver of what I consider to be the general erosion of common courtesy.
And while I carry on about courtesy and decency, all I can think is "F' these people!" ;)
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06/10/2021 02:16PM |
I took the next two hours putting it back to where you would have never known what I did. I've been back to that site since and it looks spectacular.
To make matters worse, I was paddling around the lake for fun and found another campsite where they did the same thing. I didn't fix that one due to the time it takes to get them back in.
The legs on those fire grates are 2' or more long.
A lot of damage we see is peer pressure. One person in the group is the bad guy and the rest follow even when they know it's wrong.
Tom
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06/10/2021 02:19PM |
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06/26/2021 05:04PM |
Unfortunately we now live in the "ME" environment where rules are for everyone else except ME. I'm sure there have been studies on this and why its happening. I personally think its a byproduct of the internet where you can be invisible. I think it's the lack of face to face conversations driving this change. Road rage and poor driving decisions is probably also in this category.
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06/26/2021 06:31PM |
I think it started much earlier. I characterize it by how when I was in school and there was a problem where parents were involved, they wanted to know what I did wrong. My wife and I treated our boys similarly, but it seemed the majority of parents were quick to blame the teachers, administration, school board, or anyone but their own (privileged) kid. If you grow up with parents always holding you innocent, that sense of entitlement just grows.
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06/10/2021 04:48PM |
tumblehome: "I never wrote about the time I was on Gabbro some years back and the previous campers had pulled the fire grate out of the ground. Yes you heard me right.
I took the next two hours putting it back to where you would have never known what I did. I've been back to that site since and it looks spectacular.
To make matters worse, I was paddling around the lake for fun and found another campsite where they did the same thing. I didn't fix that one due to the time it takes to get them back in.
The legs on those fire grates are 2' or more long.
A lot of damage we see is peer pressure. One person in the group is the bad guy and the rest follow even when they know it's wrong.
Tom"
Gabro area gets some real losers whom will trash just about anything. Some do it so others don't use That campsite.
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06/10/2021 06:59PM |
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06/26/2021 08:37PM |
okinaw55: "I get tired of drugs and alcohol being blamed for bad behavior. Is it a factor? You bet it is, especially with meth. Many people in this thread nailed it when they mention that people no longer have morals. They know what they are doing is wrong but they simply don't care.
Unfortunately we now live in the "ME" environment where rules are for everyone else except ME. I'm sure there have been studies on this and why its happening. I personally think its a byproduct of the internet where you can be invisible. I think it's the lack of face to face conversations driving this change. Road rage and poor driving decisions is probably also in this category. "
Yes we have become more of a I world now throughout life you don't have to depend on others ass much and were in a I world when others are not considered when our actions affect others.
How many neighbors help neighbors anymore. Getting less and less.
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06/15/2021 02:59AM |
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06/27/2021 08:11AM |
tumblehome: "I never wrote about the time I was on Gabbro some years back and the previous campers had pulled the fire grate out of the ground. Yes you heard me right.
I took the next two hours putting it back to where you would have never known what I did. I've been back to that site since and it looks spectacular.
To make matters worse, I was paddling around the lake for fun and found another campsite where they did the same thing. I didn't fix that one due to the time it takes to get them back in.
The legs on those fire grates are 2' or more long.
A lot of damage we see is peer pressure. One person in the group is the bad guy and the rest follow even when they know it's wrong.
Tom"
I found a similar set up on the nice campsite on Wasini two years ago. The grate was out of the ground and a fair ways back into the woods with glass bottles broken everywhere. My group put the grate back and packed all the glass out, but it makes you wonder.
Like all of you, I have seen a lot of stupid LNT violations, but I did just find a new one (for me.) The entire camp kitchen and one of the tent pads were covered in cut green Balsam Boughs as a "camp carpet." *FACE PALM* What thoughts went through their heads? One too many survival videos? I get the idea, but our campsites are so stressed as they are. It's already looking busy. I guess we'll see how this goes.
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06/27/2021 09:34AM |
billconner: "Okinaw-
I think it started much earlier. I characterize it by how when I was in school and there was a problem where parents were involved, they wanted to know what I did wrong. My wife and I treated our boys similarly, but it seemed the majority of parents were quick to blame the teachers, administration, school board, or anyone but their own (privileged) kid. If you grow up with parents always holding you innocent, that sense of entitlement just grows. "
+ a billion
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06/22/2021 08:13AM |
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07/22/2021 08:51AM |
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07/22/2021 08:07AM |
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06/10/2021 07:18AM |
Unfortunately the USFS doesn't have the manpower to oversee. It would be nice to see more DNR and a few troopers assigned to the BW.
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06/10/2021 01:30PM |
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06/10/2021 02:01PM |
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06/11/2021 01:54PM |
The most recent signs of misuse I have seen are trees trimmed of branches in order (I think) to make hanging hammocks easier.
Better and more education of LNT will help but not stop the problem. The world is full of a holes and unfortunately some of them go camping.
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06/15/2021 04:31PM |
dschult2: "Unfortunately it's like this all over and not really anything new. I wonder if it will ever get so bad that state and federal governments will finally start allocating more funds for enforcement."
Given the types of people controlling so many governments right now, I'd expect that as these natural areas get destroyed, they're pleased and looking forward to them being trashed beyond repair so that it is easier for them and their corporate overlords to convince the public to end their protections and just move-in, strip the resources, and develop the land.
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06/16/2021 10:41AM |
I don't want to feel like there are "police" around every corner out there, even if I'm doing everything right. I don't want to be checked at every camp site I stay at, or once every few days.
Permit issuers, whether forest service directly or cooperating outfitters, can be pretty lax about making sure a group knows the rules. They don't want to hassle people or come across as suspicious, so in my experience, they trust people and want them to have a good time. Requiring people to even watch the video is quite rare in my experience.
I guess I'd rather be hassled on the front end, with the FS or an outfitter lecturing us about LNT, than hassled when I'm camping.
And of course there is no amount of education that will get through to some very rude people. They're unfortunately always going to be among us.
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06/17/2021 10:11PM |
BWCA has been around a long time ignorance of the rules or ethical considerations just doesn't fly.
Yes been on Gabro a decade ago and a large group had music blasting wide open.
Peter lake opening fishing season one year a bunch had a beer keg and were yelling the F---- word to get off their lake.
Yes idiots been around forever. Sometimes you have to show idiots the way out.
Yes education and PEER pressure is big and I really think the vast majority do a much better job than 35 years ago.
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06/18/2021 05:26PM |
The icing on the cake was when we went to start a fire there were still embers in the fire grate. No attempt had been made to dowse the fire before the last group left.
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06/18/2021 05:49PM |
airmorse: "This isn't about "new" people going to the BWCA and not knowing the rules. This is a example of complete and total lack of respect and a feeling that people can get away with anything and not be responsible for their actions.I hope that., when and if, they raise the rates for going into the bwcaw ; the funding goes toward "policing" behaviors and not beurocratic b.s.
Unfortunately the USFS doesn't have the manpower to oversee. It would be nice to see more DNR and a few troopers assigned to the BW."
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06/20/2021 08:50AM |
The worst "mess" we've ever encountered was on Ensign, and this was in ~1998. Upon entering the lake from a portage, we saw a MOTORIZED boat go by (we reported this to rangers later). It was getting well into evening - so we grabbed the only open site we saw. There was crap everywhere - literally. A dirty diaper, fishing pole, food waste, parts to a pack, etc. It was just gross. The next morning we had the best otter watching during a.m. coffee on the rocks we've ever had :) ! The guys at a neighboring site told us the previous party had left our site "in a hurry" because wolves came into their camp. I highly doubt that happened. More likely the left over THC joint we found on the fire grate had something to do with their idiocy.
I can forgive a certain amount of newbie naivete - but not this wanton destruction. Maybe it's time a group like this put our minds together to come up with some proactive / actionable / doable ideas and make a proposal. ??
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06/21/2021 06:36PM |
chessie: "DRob1992: "This introvert is impressed: I cannot say that I know hundreds of people that well! Neither you nor I can say how THC affected those specific individuals. I did not intend to imply that all folks who smoke pot are messy. Rather, upon learning that the party hastily packed up and abandoned their camp late into the night because a "pack of wolves" invaded their campsite gave me pause, especially upon finding the pot 'leftovers' -- in any event -- the more important gist is what to do about the worsening problem as noted in the original post. "chessie: "This is so sad, and not new. Probably just worse in past 1-2 years. I honestly think axes in BW ought to be forbidden.
The worst "mess" we've ever encountered was on Ensign, and this was in ~1998. Upon entering the lake from a portage, we saw a MOTORIZED boat go by (we reported this to rangers later). It was getting well into evening - so we grabbed the only open site we saw. There was crap everywhere - literally. A dirty diaper, fishing pole, food waste, parts to a pack, etc. It was just gross. The next morning we had the best otter watching during a.m. coffee on the rocks we've ever had :) ! The guys at a neighboring site told us the previous party had left our site "in a hurry" because wolves came into their camp. I highly doubt that happened. More likely the left over THC joint we found on the fire grate had something to do with their idiocy.
I can forgive a certain amount of newbie naivete - but not this wanton destruction. Maybe it's time a group like this put our minds together to come up with some proactive / actionable / doable ideas and make a proposal. ??"
Not trying to be a troll by any means but I heard a great bit one time in regards to THC usage. It was something along the lines of, "A person's character and years of good or bad habits define that individual. THC doesn't do much in regards to whether that individual is lazy, motivated, etc." I can honestly say that I know hundreds of great, caring, passionate, nature-loving men and women who use THC regularly and, 10 times out of 10, would clean up camp, follow the Leave-No-Trace code, and even provide firewood (deadwood - not cutting into a live tree) for the next party. In summary, THC has nothing to do with people leaving a mess and acting like degenerates."
I never claimed to know how THC affects each individual. There are many factors that determine the affect of THC on any given person - including a person's body weight, gender, mental health history, the amount of THC consumed, the strain of THC, consuming THC on an empty stomach versus full stomach, etc., etc. And you are right, the issue at hand is solving the worsening dillema of trash left behind. I doubt that we'll ever lick that issue entirely; although, I would love to imagine, just like you, a clean nature where each individual does his/her part in thoroughly cleaning up on every stop of every excursion.
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06/22/2021 09:47AM |
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06/22/2021 05:51AM |
Always say the dope never made me do anything stupid.
Drugs for recreation alter the state of mind that is why people use them.
If they don't why use them.
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06/22/2021 11:01AM |
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06/22/2021 09:27AM |
Savage Voyageur: "One comment and the next thing...Squirrel"
I think all the weed makes people lose track of their. Um. ... kkjbs...
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06/22/2021 10:00AM |
Captn Tony: "I thought this book was about campsite damage not the effects of thc?"
It definitely should be about campsite damage. One individual blamed THC for why one campsite was particularly trashed and I stated my disagreement with that stance. The focus going forward should absolutely be on Leaving No Trace. We each need to hold ourselves, and our trip partners/party, more accountable. Don't get me wrong, many people out there are excellent at picking up their trash and leaving each campsite spotless for the next party.
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06/22/2021 11:15AM |
Soledad: "So they got super stoned and thought dingos were going to eat their baby. They "high"-tailed it out of there. Checks out."
Lmao, sounds like some psychedelics may have been at play in this scenario.