Boundary Waters Quetico Forum :: Listening Point - General Discussion :: Camp site accountability..
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billconner |
It's my guess is that all permit money and other income if any goes to a "general fund" and the budget for facilites and personell comes from general tax revenue, and the two are not related. |
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Stumpy |
jhb8426: "Nope, just Nope. Agree |
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billconner |
Camper fined |
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A1t2o |
Probably wouldn't help with the worst violators, but it could encourage some group members to speak up against violations and keep honest people from making mistakes. |
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Kiporby |
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myceliaman |
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tumblehome |
It looks real good on paper but in real life it fizzles before it starts. The USFS would have to implement a higher level of visitor movement tracking and it would not be popular, or practical. With that, I wish there was a way hold the abusers accountable. A group could be required to keep a USFS issued GPS tracker with them to monitor their route but could you imagine the fall out from that? Campsites could be issued numbers in writing at the site and groups would be required to write down the numbers and dates visited and send it back. I would do that but would the Youtubers? How long till the signs are destroyed. Who would the Fed's hire to do all the paperwork. Sigh. Educating these folks before they get in a canoe is probably the most cost effective way. Or more enforcement in the BWCA Tom |
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HangLoose |
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dustytrail |
A group might trash a site but are aware that a nearby site was vacant and report that one as the one used. Lots of mights. |
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TrailZen |
TZ |
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Boppasteveg |
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Unas10 |
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merlyn |
Lets face reality, a-holes will be a-holes no matter how many educational videos they watch or how many fines are imposed. They act the way they do because they have a screw you attitude and don't expect to get caught. Here is an example : Merlyn agrees to keep an eye on Horseshoe Lake June 10 to 16th. He DOES NOT confront violators or attempt to enforce any rules and makes no contact with campers other than a "Good Morning", no inspections, no permit checks etc. He has no authority to enforce anything. He goes about his normal berry picking, fishing, exploring, napping ways but when he does see a clear violation, a bon fire or a drone for example he gets on the Sat phone and calls it in and lets the rangers do the enforcement. Merlyn will also check out a recently vacated campsite with trash bag in hand. Snitch, tattletale, I don't want to get involved, I'm on vacation, not my business etc There are tons of reasons to shoot this idea down but unless politicians suddenly decide to make the funds available to the FS I don't see too many other alternative. I'll sign up. |
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Fishman53 |
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myceliaman |
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Savage Voyageur |
I like this saying… Animals don’t litter and destroy nature, people do. Be more like animals. |
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A1t2o |
Before we can say or do anything about the situation, I think we need to find out what the current situation is. I worry that the the money that is intended to manage the forests and wilderness is going towards bureaucracy and managing the forestry service itself instead. |
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merlyn |
I know it's just a band aid and it won't stop all the boneheads but I can't think of anything else I personally can do to make a difference. There will never be enough FS funding for wilderness area protection. Politicians look at them as a piggy bank waiting to be smashed open. |
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billconner |
merlyn: "I haven't thought this out completely so I'm sure there are a lot of holes in the plan but here goes-- how about some sort of "adopt a lake" group along the lines of the adopt a high way volunteers? I like the concept but numbers make it a challenge. Say you divided it up into groups of 50 camp sites. That's 44 groups (and 44 sat phones or maybe satellite communicators.). Memorial Day to Labor Day is 14 weeks. 616 volunteers at a week apiece. And should be double for groups of 25 sites - but still alot. At least two coordinator rangers just to manage. You'd think in the infrastructure trillions they could find maybe $2.5M / year for 25 or so more rangers. |
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myceliaman |
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myceliaman |
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Lionabe |
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A1t2o |
Lionabe: "That's all good to say, but the USFS has limited assets. They can't patrol everywhere at all times. In fact, the USFS is impacted by worker shortages just as much as any business in Ely or Grand Marais is! So it's great to say that more patrols are necessary, but sometimes that just isn't possible." Then what would it take to get more workers? Personally I don't think that just money is the answer. I think there needs to be more training and educational opportunities. I'm sure there are lots of people up in the iron range that would like a job, USFS or not. Maybe we need more campgrounds or other areas that can bring in more revenue to sustain the USFS in Minnesota. I think the USFS just needs more infrastructure to support the workers and make the working conditions better. |
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Dolpho |
However I don’t see any practical way to enforce the rules in the field most of the time. To me the most effective way is preaching LNT through the permit process. Unless we have rangers lurking behind every tree watching our every move and actually witnessing destructive behavior what can they do? Visit your camp while you are there and decide You were responsible for the felled green tree or garbage next to the fire grate? I didn’t do it. Same for trying to track our campsite use and determine responsibility for condition of the site after the fact. Circumstantial evidence unless witnessed. Doubt that would hold up in court if contesting the ticket. I have had interactions with rangers in the past. All were pleasant and fun to talk with. At the same time the last thing I want is a police state of seeing rangers every day who are stopping by to see if I’m compliant. Be careful what you wish for. I try not to get too worked up over garbage left behind by slobs. I was a bit steamed tho when finding and hauling out 6 spent 1 lb propane canisters that I found thrown in a crevice of large rock on Williamson island on Insula. To me the only “important” violation is cutting down trees and playing billy bushcrafter. All else is fairly easy to remedy. Not that we should have to.. slobs will be slobs. Best bet is to try and get them to see the light through education. |
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Lionabe |
A1t2o: "Lionabe: "That's all good to say, but the USFS has limited assets. They can't patrol everywhere at all times. In fact, the USFS is impacted by worker shortages just as much as any business in Ely or Grand Marais is! So it's great to say that more patrols are necessary, but sometimes that just isn't possible." I actually agree with you. While there is a worker shortage, there are things that can be done to mitigate that issue. I was just pointing out that it is not as easy as just saying: "We need more patrols!" There is a lot more thought and action that needs to be done to dramatically lower the number of BWCA rule violators. |
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timatkn |
Fishman53: "Recognizing this is a discussion to improve campsite conditions, I did want to share my perspective. First time visitor to BWCA. My son and I just returned from Clearwater (EP 62) area. In preparing I read various posts on this site including those about camp conditions. I was expecting the worst, but was pleasantly surprised to find the sites we found were in good condition upon arrival. We made sure they were in the same condition upon departure. Now, there was a monofilament leader and a small bag of hooks found (that are now mine), but appeared to be a result of unintentional behavior. We did not find any conditions I would attribute to intentional acts. Now in a few years with more trips under my hat my eyesight could improve and perspective change, but we did not experience the camp conditions others have described on this site and are thankful. " Thanks for posting your perspective and I am glad you ran into relatively clean sites. To be honest I think most people do well, eventually you run into a site that is just ridiculously destroyed and it gets to ya. It is happening more but the 2 worst sites I ever saw was on Argo in 2009 and on Hudson in 2002…it isn’t new either. T |
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jhb8426 |
Don't need location tracking. Turned it off on my cell phone the day I got it. Obviously we're passed the date 1984, but no need to hurry the spirit of it. Already too much surveillance of where you are and when. |
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mjmkjun |
Assigned campsite(s) is a way but that proposal would not work because people are on the move. Voyageurs National Park has an assigned sites policy and I think that works because the area isn't as vast. I wonder if there's a trashing of campsites there? |
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whyzata |
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bottomtothetap |
myceliaman: "In my 150+ trips. I’ve seen one forestry person at hook island once. In September of 95 I saw a group of fire fighters going in and asked us if we were capable of getting ourselves out of cache bay. That’s it for me!! The inky way to solve this problem is to make folks accountable. Education sounds great but you can’t educate someone whom doesn’t. There comes a time the blind man says can’t you read.!!!" Compared to you, myceliaman, I must attract the rangers since in less than 30 trips I have crossed paths with them more than a half-dozen times. We were never found to be in any type of "violation" and all have been very pleasant encounters, other than a time we met a crew doing some maintenance as we crossed a portage: There was a guy--not uniformed and I suspect a volunteer--who just from his whole demeanor seemed like he was feeling his authority a bit as he demanded to see our permit. |
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colddriver |
jhb8426: "Nope, just Nope. There is no turning it off!! You might have pushed a button but I guarantee you it's not OFF by any means. |
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bhouse46 |
I for one would pay more for a permit if funds were used to support more rangers. From what I read they would only have to patrol entry areas. While most of us do it because it is the right thing, some need consequences. |
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mjmkjun |
bhouse46: "... Me too! Ranger presence is what's going to work best. Once word gets around that violators are paying hefty fines, it'll affect the trash going in. Pun intended. Although, I don't understand "they would only have to patrol entry areas." How would that be a gamechanger? Violators watch the films, smirk, and go on to do what they do. Rangers standing at the entry points are going to do any good unless you really believe handing out yet more pamphlets is going to change the mindset of that sort. They have to be caught in the act and ticketed--which involves fieldwork. Rangers love to be in the great outdoors too! It's funding that causes the scant Ranger presence. Yes, there are people out there who don't know the ethics and principles of LNT. Like, maybe 5. How could you not be aware of them when you just watched the films? Sorry for the rant. Shouldn't of drank that whole pot of coffee. :D |
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PeaceFrog |
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