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Boundary Waters Quetico Forum :: Listening Point - General Discussion :: Group Size exemption?
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| Author | Message Text | ||
| sedges |
That said, I like the limits where they are. |
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| Cricket67 |
Jackfish: "Michwall2: "Never heard of this one before." I heard this from a Scout leader who says they heard it from a unit commissioner last night that "the Northern Tier experience" makes exceptions to the 9 limit. This didn't sound right at all to me...just thought I would ask here to confirm. I'm wondering if there is some program where they do not go into the BWCA but stay just outside of it? I'm just guessing. |
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| Stumpy |
Need more kids exposed to the wilderness. I've done dozens of trips with 3 people in some of the 17 foot aluminums, and all had to paddle. Works well with the middle guy sitting on a well packed duluth pack. My first trip ever had 11 of us & 4 Alumicraft canoes. I once guided a family of 9 (Which kid was supposed to be told he/she couldn't come ??) At camp, we had a designated kid who was supposed to run off in the woods & hide, if a ranger showed up. Was a great trip. |
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| Minnesotian |
tumblehome: " Yep, I have seen the same thing. I was on the south shore of Conmee on a solo trip and came across about 20 kids. Not having interacted with anyone for about 5 days, suddenly being surround by that many people all asking me questions about solo canoeing, what I ate, seeing any bears, etc... was a tad overwhelming but fun. |
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| user0317 |
tumblehome: "The thing about Stumpy is he likes to get people riled up. If they say you can’t do it he says ‘Go for it!’ He’s just an old cramudgeon. I've seen this in the Q as well. Massive canoes full of kids. I think we counted 27. My ears aren't shy but that must have been the most curses per minute that I have ever heard. We were leap-frogging this group and I was initially nervous about getting stalled behind them, or having someone inadvertently paddle off with one of my packs. They were very quick and efficient however. We parted ways on Maria and we saw no one else until the return leg of our trip. |
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| Savage Voyageur |
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| yogi59weedr |
What is a misanthrope? My quess is a lady ant whose last name is hrope |
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| Savage Voyageur |
brp: "Banksiana: "brp: "I went on a dog sledding trip in the BWCA winter of ‘99/00. About ten years ago, we had a group of eight guys. No way could we put four canoes, eight guys and gear in one boat. The johnboats are not rated for that many passengers or the weight. We needed two tow boats. That means two drivers and eight campers for a total of ten. We still could have had another guy. This is because tow operators are not considered part of your group. They are licensed to tow groups. If you look on the side of any tow boat, you will see a tow boat sticker. This is the only exception to the rule because they are not part of a group. It’s no different than a group of nine campers going over a motorized portage. Someone has to operate the motorized portage machine. They are licensed to do it. Kind of a gray rule. Another example is two rangers showing up to check permits at your campsite of nine campers. That makes eleven people. Then a game warden shows up at the same time. That makes twelve. All is good because they are doing their job and not part of your group. |
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| Pinetree |
billconner: "Back on topic a little, IIRC I have read at the time they reduced from 10 to 9, the plan was to reduce to 6 (and I'd guess 3 canoes) but the Scouts fought it - kind of would make their trips difficult - so compromised on 9 and 4. IIRC." They talked a long time for 3 canoes and 8 people,but don't remember 6. |
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| tumblehome |
Zulu: "A group of group 25 is possible and legal if 9 members were expecting, some with twins and triplets. Unlikely but possible." And that Zulu, is indeed the ONLY exception! But then we get into when is a fetus a human. And let me certainly assure you, we ain't going there. Tom |
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| billconner |
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| Stumpy |
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| mirth |
It's not like Philmont where BSA owns the land and arbitrarily sets the crew size. Our troop had back-to-back trips where a dad last minute could go with his son but the crew was already at 12. Philmont happily took the dad's money and sent him on trail. It's amazing what pizza for the office staff can do. |
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| Blatz |
Stumpy: "I'm in favor of it. And why should the Scouts be the only ones to get an exemption? Church groups will want it etc., etc., etc. It would open up a can of worms if it where allowed only for Scouts. |
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| Pinetree |
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| THEGrandRapids |
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| tumblehome |
Even two groups meeting up on a lake exceeding nine is a violation. |
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| Cricket67 |
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| Banksiana |
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| Michwall2 |
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| Jackfish |
Michwall2: "Never heard of this one before." ^^^ What he said. ^^^ No exemptions allowed. Cricket, who informed you? |
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| cyclones30 |
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| tumblehome |
Quetico has a limit, too, but the Atikokan school wilderness program has an exemption of some sort because I’ve seen 20 kids in flotillas and giant canoes in the Q. |
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| heavylunch |
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| Pinetree |
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| cmanimal |
If you want to understand the numbers more and see how this BSA BWCA exemption myth happens, keep reading. All of the programs under the Northern Tier umbrella for the BSA do their registration through Charles L Sommers canoe base (Ely), but they also operate programs out of Atikokan, ON, and Bissett, MB. This gets you 4 different sets of land use regulations, and 2 seasons (simplified as liquid water, and solid water) which gets some changes in land use regulations, between those seasons. From my experience the make-up for most trips in MN is 1 staff member, 2 adults, and up to 6 scouts. and for Dog sled trips its 2 staff member, 2 adults, and up to 5 scouts. From the Norther Tier web site for canoe trips: "Crew size at Northern Tier is often determined by the location you are paddling. In Ely, MN – crews can be from 6-8 participants. In the Atikokan, ON and Bissett, MB, crews can be up to 11 participants. " From the Norther Tier web site for winter trips: "You can choose to have a large crew, 9-11 participants or small crew, 6-8 participants for all of our standard Okpik programs. Dog Sled program crews are limited to 6-7 participants." The large crews for the winter program either stay on base or typically on flash lake or other adjacent lake not in BWCA. |
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| yogi59weedr |
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| yogi59weedr |
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| Stumpy |
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| Stumpy |
tumblehome: "The thing about Stumpy is he likes to get people riled up. If they say you can’t do it, he says ‘Go for it!’ He’s just an old curmudgeon. Q. " If you like, but I am not a misanthrope. |
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| Pinetree |
Stumpy: "tumblehome: "The thing about Stumpy is he likes to get people riled up. If they say you can’t do it, he says ‘Go for it!’ He’s just an old curmudgeon. Q. " Stumpy is a people lover. |
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| Stumpy |
billconner: "Back on topic a little, IIRC I have read at the time they reduced from 10 to 9, the plan was to reduce to 6 (and I'd guess 3 canoes) but the Scouts fought it - kind of would make their trips difficult - so compromised on 9 and 4. IIRC." This is true...I was part of that fight. |
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| billconner |
Stumpy: "billconner: "Back on topic a little, IIRC I have read at the time they reduced from 10 to 9, the plan was to reduce to 6 (and I'd guess 3 canoes) but the Scouts fought it - kind of would make their trips difficult - so compromised on 9 and 4. IIRC." I probably read it in one of your posts. :) |
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| nctry |
In sept 2012 on my forty day trip there were three groups of nine, 27 people traveling together. I think it was a collage deal. (I think the course was on if you can drive 65 in a 60 how many people can travel together without getting fined... haha.) |
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| brp |
We had 12 people….9 college students, 1 professor and 2 guides. This was through Outward Bound in Ely. My memory is that there was some kind of exemption, I know we were legal. I don’t know if OB had some special treatment, perhaps because it was educational, or maybe in winter there is flexibility. |
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| Cricket67 |
mirth: "The only thing I could see NTier doing would be running trips in BWCA-adjacent areas where the 9/4 limit doesn't apply.... They're already in the SNF, Flash lake is just South of the base and not in the BW and they use it all the time in winter for high adventure." This is my thought also. There are a couple of campsites outside the BW on Snowbank and I think a few on one of the lakes south of Moose. This might be what was being referenced. And for the record - I do not think there should be any exemption to the crew limit. For some background, we are in a position where we divided up everyone that was interested to two separate crews of 6 and 7, going in on two different entry points a week apart. I will be helping with both crews. Now we have had a few drop out and it was ask if we can combine the crews but we would still be at 10. |
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| Banksiana |
brp: "I went on a dog sledding trip in the BWCA winter of ‘99/00. The rule is nine. No exemptions. Good chance that you were probably in BWCA adjacent area. VOBS adheres to the rules; their continued existence depends upon it. |
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| heavylunch |
http://www.wilbers.com/ChronologyLong.htm |
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| MikeinMpls |
tumblehome: "I can say for certain there are no exemptions. Not for the scouts, church groups, stumpy. Nine is the limit. It's an easy violation for the USFS since it's easy to spot and there are no possible excuses. Which I saw last summer on Fourtown. Clearly or two or three groups met at one campsite, 14 people that I could see and count. I assumed all the groups arranged to get at least two permits, maybe more, then hang out all together in the daytime. However, after hearing that many parties were entering the BWCA without permits, I have to wonder... Mike |
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| Pinetree |
heavylunch: "I couldn't resist googling it. Pretty interesting chronology. Go to 1994 to see the change from 10 to 9. Site has good info even though it is really old. Yes seems like yesterday to us oldtimers when those discussions took place and number of canoes per permit were also decided. |
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| brp |
Banksiana: "brp: "I went on a dog sledding trip in the BWCA winter of ‘99/00. I am 99.9% sure that I have all of my facts correct. I will check the journal I made when I get a chance. So, if you have a group of 9 then you cannot get a tow because you’d be at at least 10….are the “no exemptions” people saying that is correct? |
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| Banksiana |
brp: " Unlikely that any 25hp boat could accommodate 10 people and three canoes. But yes, you would be out of compliance if you crammed 9 people and three canoes + driver on tow boat. |
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| Zulu |
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| Gaidin53 |
Ryan |
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| missmolly |
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