Boundary Waters Quetico Forum :: Listening Point - General Discussion :: Your take?
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Northwoodsman |
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Savage Voyageur |
Maiingan: "This won't happen on Isle Royale. People share campsites when needed and dogs are not allowed. I’ve been to Isle Royale and I remember this rule, and I camped with others there too. I had no problem with it because I knew the rule to share campsites. But the BWCA is not Isle Royale, it not Yellowstone, its not Denali, and it’s not spelled out for people. Everyone has a different set of rules. One person says no way, it would have ended badly, others say no problem. Spell out the rule or this will keep happening. |
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Finnboy |
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Minnesotian |
This sounds like an older person who was embarrassed by the continence of their body, was facing an emergency, chose the path to what is permitted for defecation in the BWCA (taking a dump in a latrine), and covered for his embarrassment by blustering at something he thought he could control, mainly the actions of a dog, to cover for something he couldn't control, his bowels. The guy was embarrassed that he had to drop a duce in a strangers house and acted like John Wayne to cover for his embarrassment. There is an old joke my wife and I share as we get passed/cutoff/nearly run over by assholes on the roads...."Maybe they have to poop real bad." |
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missmolly |
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Captn Tony |
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Maiingan |
timatkn: "I was trying to make the point even the crunchy crowd shares in other places.Maiingan: "This won't happen on Isle Royale. People share campsites when needed and dogs are not allowed. But on the other hand maybe people were not so welcoming... so they had to make a rule letting people know they do not own the park. You are right in Chicago it would have turned out different. Almost 800 murders there last year. I was raised that you treat everyone the way you would want your Grandparents treated. Words I try to live by. |
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missmolly |
Doublelung76: "The perpetrator,let’s call him #2, should have been overly apologetic and very humble after the afore mentioned intrusion and expulsion of unstoppable excrement.Regardless of the behavior of the witness,we will call him K-9 in order to maintain anonymity." ^The author of this post, let's call him Funnybritches76, sure made me laugh.^ |
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OneMatch |
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timatkn |
Maiingan: "This won't happen on Isle Royale. People share campsites when needed and dogs are not allowed. What’s your point? It wasn’t Isle Royale…If it was Chicago it would of turned out different you need to buy something to use a restroom…same relevance to the OP…none :) T |
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bobbernumber3 |
uqme2: "If it were my camp, I'd have controlled my dog and perhaps even offered to secure the guy's boat for him thinking it my good deed for the day. +1... thanks for reading my mind! |
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bobbernumber3 |
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tobiedog |
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Marley |
This reminds me of a few years ago when my wife and I were camping on Sandpoint in Voyageurs National Park. A boat pulled up to our site and a women and her dog got out while the man stayed with the boat. She hardly looked at us but said “my dog needs to go to the bathroom”. She disappeared in the direction of our privy while her dog proceeded to pee on everything including our tent. The shocked look on my wife’s face was priceless. I couldn’t stop laughing. The guy in the boat couldn’t even look at us. Sometimes it’s best to look for the humor. |
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bobbernumber3 |
RunningFox: " ... and very few motor boat parking spots. Still a man with a plan and a can wouldn't have had to land. |
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jamdemos |
OneMatch: "I would have written down (or taken a pic) of his boat number info and reported him to the USFS when I took out." For what?? Rude behavior…although he was completely out of line it wasn’t illegal, no need to bother the USFS, just understand people suck sometimes. Ignore them and try not to let it get to you. |
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Doublelung76 |
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Blatz |
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missmolly |
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missmolly |
Minnesotian: " Hey, you're a little like me: When someone whooshes past me on the road, I say, "That's the world's foremost brain surgeon, off to save a desperate child in need of life-saving surgery. No wonder they're speeding." |
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Spartan2 |
missmolly: "My first assumption in reading this anecdote was that it was a skirmish in the war between those want mining/motorboats/developed shorelines and those who want canoes/quiet/wilderness. After reading the entire thread and cognitively chewing on this for days, i'm sticking with my first assumption, which is that a guy with a motorboat, in declaring usage of the bathroom, was declaring that Basswood belongs to the motorboaters and canoeists need to step aside. " You may very well be correct. But if that is the case, it is not going to change, no matter how many new guidelines the Forest Service comes up with. |
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Savage Voyageur |
not signed in: "can someone verify the rule in the BWCA an occupied campsite is not open to use? with decades of BWCA use I have never seen such a rule - only the rule that 'can not exceed 9 people or 4 watercraft' " There is no printed rule, nothing mentioned on the video everyone has to watch concerning complete strangers in your camp. Only thing that is clearly stated is 9 people 4 canoe rule. So if its not spelled out clearly for everyone, we will continue to have stories like this. All I ask of the Forest Service is to spell it out clearly. Ether state that the campsite is only yours and no one else unless an emergency, or state that the campsite can handle up to the max person, boat number. Even then you would need a large campsite to handle a large group moving in. I’ve been to campsites that have one good, one not so good pad and that’s all. So, with the fact that some sites are small, it should be printed out what the expectations are. |
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timatkn |
Porkeater: "Savage Voyageur: " (Edited because it looked like I was specifically responding to Porkeater in a sarcastic manner—-sorry) This is more of a general response to those asking for clarification from the FS. I swear the 3 videos you are supposed to watch before picking up your permit address this issue. There was something in there about avoiding occupied campsites and that people go to this wilderness place for solitude. I think is another key item is that the BWCAW is a wilderness. People making comparisons to other outdoor areas where campsites are shared are forgetting the wilderness designation of the BWCAW. That is an important distinction. It really surprises me how anyone can think it is okay to go into an occupied campsite, it violates the inherent tenants of the wilderness experience and seems to be common sense…but as others have pointed out maybe the FS needs to spell this out better if so many are treating it like Isle Royale, SHT, or the Appalachian trail…all of which are completely different designations/areas. I am sensitive to this as we had a group of 9 men force their way into my wife’s and my site in 2009. It was initially very scary, then realized just a group of entitled ignorant A-Holes but weren’t going to cause us harm. None the less no one should feel that way even if for just a few minutes. To the OP…I would of handled it differently knowing the full story now (maybe you would too) but you did nothing wrong. I can tell you from experience It is very unsettling when someone just comes into your camp and makes demands vs. asks for permission. The motorboat guy had options and he chose poorly and handled his final option poorly. That’s on him not you. T |
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timatkn |
T |
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nctry |
As rude as it was, letting it get under your skin was your deal. But I agree the guy could have / should have gone somewhere else. |
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missmolly |
jillpine: "missmolly: ""The guy would not have set foot on shore at my camp." DEAL! |
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Porkeater |
timatkn: "Porkeater: "Savage Voyageur: " I didn't ignore a damn thing. It seems pretty clear to me that those asking these questions are the ones who agree that occupied campsites are just that, occupied. Why is it unreasonable to ask whether there is a rule that backs up what seems to be the appropriate behavior. Clearly not everyone watches or heeds the video if this pops up from time to time. It would be nice if there were published guidance to point to if there is a dispute rather than just saying, "hey, didn't you watch the video?" I actually did email the SNF office to ask this question yesterday. The response I received was basically what we all have been saying, that it's common courtesy and consistent with LNT to not bother people on an occupied site, but there is no specific rule. At least the FS employee didn't accuse me of not having common sense. |
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HayRiverDrifter |
Keep your dog safe and close to you. You are your dogs protector. |
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Porkeater |
timatkn: "Sorry Porkeater I had already edited my post as I realized it came off wrong. Wasn’t directed at you. I was editing it as yiu were responding. Hopefully my edits make more sense. This hit me personally from a previous scary experience I had. Once again nothing to do with you. I apologize. Thanks. All is good. |
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Speckled |
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tobiedog |
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papalambeau |
RunningFox: "My take? This says it all RunningFox. And I agree. Trees and corn fields aplenty! |
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treehorn |
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YetiJedi |
missmolly: "Yep, he was an oaf. Still, I'm glad you didn't escalate the conflict. He might have been packing and a thunderbox isn't worth dyin' over. " +1 agreed |
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cyclones30 |
I'd be much more inclined to help a paddler. If they "gotta go" for whatever reason by all means you can paddle up and ask and I'd even let you use my TP so you didn't have to find yours. Motor boat? You can be at another open site in....2 min? |
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bobbernumber3 |
Yes, odd that the guy seemed to march right into your site. But it seems the unrestrained dog added to the difficult situation and upset. And the threat by you of using the dog to remove him from camp was probably not a good call. |
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merlyn |
I would act differently for a medical emergency or bad weather but in this case the guy can s..t in his hat before I let him in my camp. |
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greywolf33 |
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mschi772 |
Bobcatmaster: "There was no hosting this character! He barged into campsite uninvited and declared he was using the latrine. My dog met him and attempted to discourage him by barking. This is a well trained animal who knew the intruder had not been invited!" I understand that but was covering some adjacent bases. This specific guy should be thankful he didn't get a beat-down for the initial trespass, nevermind his parting attitude. |
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Bobcatmaster |
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DRob1992 |
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Bobcatmaster |
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mschi772 |
I'm more than happy to share a site or resources with someone in need, but an attitude of entitlement quickly spoils my generosity. You don't get to trespass into my camp and start making demands. Know your place. You're a guest at my site, and I expect you to behave accordingly or you'll quickly stop being at my site at all. Having said all of that, if I were to host someone at my site in this way, I would immediately restrain my dog for as long as they are there for a variety of reasons. Actually, I wouldn't need to as my dog is on-leash in some way at all times in the wilderness, but I'd likely relocate and possibly shrink their range in order to give my guest and my dog plenty of space from each other. It's polite as many people are uncomfortable with dogs. It's safe for my dog as I don't trust people to conduct themselves properly with my dog. |
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Northwoodsman |
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KawnipiKid |
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Jaywalker |
OneMatch: "I would have written down (or taken a pic) of his boat number info and reported him to the USFS when I took out." +1. Forward with details to the local FS LEO. If he’s a regular trouble maker they might well know him. I’d say you handled it well. The guy was a jerk, but it doesn’t sound like he was in any way a threat. If it had been a group of guys, or he insisted on camping, of if you had youngsters in camp - that might be very different. But as you described it, you let a guy not crap his pants, you and your dog both gave him a good piece of your minds, and you have the satisfaction of having gotten under his skin and you got rid of him (hence the shouting). I’d say you won. |
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OCDave |
bobbernumber3: "Somehow, I think there is another side of this story or missing details... This was my first thought as well. I imagine coming ashore wasn't a casual thoughtless affair for the older gentleman. If he felt the need to land at an occupied site and announce he need to use the latrine, I suspect he had very little time for niceties at his arrival. The OP's "make use of it and leave our campsite!" response makes clear they had zero interest in offering good will or the slightest compassion for an individual who was clearly exhibiting a distress we have all shared. Moreover, it likely eliminated the opportunity for their trespasser to ask forgiveness on his return from his emergent visit to the latrine. We all share the BWCA. Seems petty to be stingy about a hole full of crap. That is my take. |
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lindylair |
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timatkn |
You just don’t enter a camp…you ask…if they are jerks and say no then you move on…If you don’t now you are an intruder and a bigger jerk! you don’t need a latrine to deuce in the woods. Plus he had a motor boat…drive to the next one for God’s sake if you are too weak and decrepit to deuce in the woods? He could of pulled over anywhere on the lake? Then the dog barking didn’t deter him? This guy must be some piece of entitlement… I am not sure what I would do if someone “told” me what they were going to do at my site? Certainly wouldn’t get a “hey nice guy, come on in with your great attitude” T |
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missmolly |
On Crown Land, there are no thunderboxes, but there are public toilets, aka low, flat rocks where birds and beavers find it easy to poop. That's where I poop too. Being public facilities, there's water right there for washing afterwards. Nice view too. Anyway, rude, old guy, I'll yell this so you can hear it: "QUIT BEING RUDE AND TRY SQUATTING SO YOU DON'T BOTHER GOOD FOLKS AND GOOD DOGS!!! TRY IT!!! YOU'LL LIKE IT!!!" I'm sure he heard that: I yelled really loud. |
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Kendis |
missmolly: "I would hate to use a thunderbox. Holes in the ground are full of spiders! Anyone who's squatted to poop can feel that squatting is how we are made to poop. It's so easy! If you're married to sitting or too stiff to squat, then sit on a log and cantilever your back porch. BWCA rules require you to use the latrine when at a designated campsite. If you aren't at a designated campsite you are required to cathole your waste at least 150 feet from shore. The same for wastewater from using soap. Using soap in a lake is prohibited. |
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missmolly |
Okay, what would you do? I ask partly because I'm working on a short story right now that was sparked by an anecdote a bwca.comer told about two guys in a canoe with an axe who declared they'd be sharing the bwca.comer's campsite. He pushed them away, triggering cussing. Would you push him off the shore too? |
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Savage Voyageur |
I also have to heap some blame on the Forest service. Something really needs to be spelled out on the back of the permit, in the printed rules, in the video that you watch about coming into someone’s campsite. Most people I’ve talked to here and up there consider the campsite you are camping in as home. I’m not knocking at your door to use the bathroom. As Far as what I would do. I trip with 4 to 8 guys depending on the trip. So I would have no problem letting someone into camp to use the thunder box. Families with kids, all ladies in the group, young adults, totally different thing. So until someone addresses this, this behavior will continue. |
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Spartan2 |
missmolly: "I would hate to use a thunderbox. Holes in the ground are full of spiders! Anyone who's squatted to poop can feel that squatting is how we are made to poop. It's so easy! If you're married to sitting or too stiff to squat, then sit on a log and cantilever your back porch. When I was younger, I have camped on Crown Land, and also in Quetico. One of the reasons we made the change to the BWCA is because at an early age (early 40's) I developed arthritis and it became severe more quickly than for most people. Knees, feet, ankles, spine, shoulders, hands, etc. You name it. Squatting, an activity I had taken for granted, became painful and sometimes almost impossible. For me, the "thunderbox" (we always called it the "biffy",) saved wilderness camping for me, as it made it much more comfortable and lessened my chance of a painful fall. (Yup, had a couple of those when trying to squat.) So I disagree about the distastefulness of the box, as compared to the alternative for someone like me. Now, having said that, if I had an emergency while paddling and really needed the box, we would stop at a vacant campsite or find some deep woods if possible. We were lucky, as we did our traveling in the olden days when most people didn't basecamp, so in the paddling part of the day there was usually a campsite available. This never happened to us, but if a real emergency had developed and I had felt the need to approach an occupied site to ask to use the facilities, you can bet that I would have been most apologetic and very, VERY polite about it. I would have called up before putting my foot on the site, and only have come ashore if given permission. I think if I had done that, permission would probably have been granted by most campers, and it would have been a congenial meeting. At least I would hope so. A person barging into a campsite and announcing what they are about to do is just so foreign to my experiences that it takes my breath away. However, I can also remember a time when we did approach a campsite (for another reason) and ask to come on site. I thought we were very clear about our intentions and very polite. I later read a description of that same encounter posted here on this website and it was a story very much unlike what really happened. Totally fabricated in some areas, and overdramatized in others. So when people say that there are always two sides to any story, I find I am believing that more than I would have before I had that upsetting experience. NOT saying that Bobcatmaster isn't being completely clear and honest in his recollections of the event. I am sure this particular incident happened just as described. Rudeness is very hard to deal with, and personally, I am just glad to learn that the man took his leave and the situation didn't escalate. |
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missmolly |
Yeah, Squatting + Arthritis =/= A Good Poop |
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Argo |
You could also employ the clever charm offensive from the always irreverent Ricky Gervais. |
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bfurlow |
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timatkn |
bobbernumber3: "Somehow, I think there is another side of this story or missing details... I know we are only getting one side but the fact the guy even came into a site with a dog barking, then allegedly stayed there telling them to restrain the dog is very weird… |
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OgimaaBines |
Similar situation but different circumstances: i did a solo granite river trip this year, and made my way to a gorgeous island site with red pines on Sag around 10am. I found a 1.75 bottle of vodka with maybe a 1/2 liter left by the firegrate when I arrived. I had just finished getting my hammock and tarp up when I noticed a motor boat with two 30 something fellas coming in near my canoe. Assuming they'd been at the site the night before and were back for their forgotten bottle, I grabbed it and held it up to them and started making my way down. They asked if I was staying at the site and I said that I was. They said that they'd talked to the prior campers and were tying to get this site and that I'd "snuck in on them". I indicated it was a first come first serve kind of deal. They asked if I was on my own, and if they could join and could we party. I said "no, I'm out here to be on my own". They said they were a party of 6 and at a bad site I shrugged and I told them I'd be exiting tomorrow and they could try then. They stopped talking and sped off. This was the first conversation I'd had in about 5 days, so it kind of replayed in my head for a while. I got more frustrated as time went on, either they didn't know or care how things work out there. Though I did think it sort of funny that I greeted them by holding up a mostly drank 1.75 at 10am. |
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Maiingan |
RunningFox: "My take? In the old days, like when I was a younger? We would stop at one of the 20 resorts. Then when we were done with our business, we would get a beer and flirt with the swampies. |
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missmolly |
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Chieflonewatie |
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Porkeater |
Savage Voyageur: " I agree completely. This issue of uninvited guests in campsites has come up several times here, so it must be somewhat of a regular occurrence. I have looked and tried to find a definitive answer in the regs and other FS sources, and can't find anything. There should be some guidance about whether occupied campsites are considered off-limits to other users. |
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missmolly |
Chieflonewatie: "Sometimes when something is blatantly obvious you don't need to write the actual rule. If only this were true, but in litigious America, bleach and lye come with "Do not swallow. You will die. Really. No lie." warnings. |
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uqme2 |
Reversing roles, I'd have to be truly desperate as I'd fear someone might lighten my tackle box or something while I was, umm, vulnerable to such unsportsmanlike like conduct. |
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timatkn |
treehorn: "I guess everything has pretty much been covered here, but I'll add that I do feel like the dog should have been controlled/taken out of the equation. It's not totally clear if the dog was leashed or anything, but it seems like this interaction could have gone better if the dog wasn't hollering at the guy. OP seems to talk about it as a fairly well-trained dog that was defending its territory/people, but if that's the case, it should be able to be called off as well. So the adults in the room call the shots, not the animals. Allowing the guy to get back to his boat without having to fight off the dog would be a good thing. " I agree, to an extent, especially having the benefit of analyzing the situation after the fact. What I'd like to point out is in the heat of the moment, when someone enters your campsite uninvited, and since I have been in this situation, I can honestly say in the heat of the moment it probably initially appeared to be aggressive act...the comfort of that person entering your camp isn't your priority. There is a shock and disbelief you are trying to process. “What the heck is going hear?” To me, I read it differently, the guy had room to leave even though the dog was barking...albeit the dog was probably aggressively barking...but the guy still stopped to yell at them. A guy entering camp with a barking dog, not asking, stopping to yell are HUGE red flag behaviors. Maybe he had a bathroom emergency and it affected his behavior but I am not going to second guess anything the OP did as it is scary... If you haven't been in the situation it's hard to understand. I've had situations where people needed to use the latrine, help, directions, advice, even a visitor who just socialized. All of those went well because the group/person entering were polite and announced themselves so I am not some psycho that's afraid of people :) ...but I am going to reiterate when this happened to my wife and I it was disturbing. When I retold the story on this website I did it through the lens of knowing there wasn't any danger and did not retell how I felt at that the moment of time it was initially happening. I did not articulate the danger/fear we felt, I downplayed it after the fact. That's what most people do in these type of stories. Just keep that in mind. T |
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RunningFox |
In days of old, when men were bold, and toilets not invented, They dropped their load beside the road, and walked away contented. One million acres of land readily available. . .and a grown “man” can’t find a place to do his business in private without bothering strangers? So, I’m thinking that the dog wasn’t barking at him, but simply trying to explain in plain english how he (or she) routinely conducts his (or her) business when faced with similar circumstances. |
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Savage Voyageur |
timatkn: "Porkeater: "Savage Voyageur: " I would like to know exactly where it is stated where it says about avoiding occupied campsite. So please post a link to one of the three You Tube Forest service videos we all need to watch, stating exactly time stamp you are referring to. All three are easily looked up on You Tube. If there is a BWCA rules or regulations that states this please post that link. You say it’s common sense not to go into another occupied campsite and I agree with you. But like the old saying goes, common sense is not that common. So if I missed reading that or in the video or a published brochure please educate me. |
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uqme2 |
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treehorn |
RunningFox: "My take? Love it. And I think I agree. |
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PeaceFrog |
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bobbernumber3 |
Maiingan: "...You are right in Chicago it would have turned out different..." Two guys from Illinois meet in the BW. And this encounter is the result. |
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jillpine |
missmolly: ""The guy would not have set foot on shore at my camp." MM, I would like to read this story when done and published. Or email it to me if you don't publish it. I'll send you some MN maple syrup and wild rice in exchange. |
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Maiingan |
As they say on the Rez...white people problems. |
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not signed in |
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Hammertime |
Just shrug it off and carry on with the day. I can’t imagine ever stopping at a campsite to ask somebody to use their latrine and would be annoyed of someone did the same. You’re in the woods, figure it out. |
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OCDave |
From OP's perspective old man is rude intruder but, we don't know the equally true story from the aged distracted male visitor's side. Remember: "don't judge a man until you've portaged his canoe 320 rods in his soiled drawers" |