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timatkn	04/14/2022 08:31AM   jwmiller39: "seems awfully silly that oars would be illegal in the bwca. I always thought it was funny that vexilars are allowed into the bwca in the winter because they technically have a [brushless] motor in them. So with that, you are allowed to bring a motor of sorts, but are not able to bring an oar. Makes a lot of sense. " It’s hard to find the actual by laws/rules anymore, but if I remember correctly it’s about using a mechanical advantage to make work easier. Sails, oars, motors, chain saws, wheels, bikes, snowmobiles etc…It’s intentionally vague as new mechanical advantages can be developed. So the by-laws cover them all. I believe at one time when specific devices were mentioned instead of mechanical advantage devices there was a year or two there was an explosion of snowmobile use in the BWCAW as an example. Maybe you can make a case to outlaw a vexilar? I’ve never drug one out but it seems to fall more under electrical devices than mechanical advantage. T
Jakthund	04/14/2022 12:28PM   I think I might disagree that oars are not allowed. Looking at the regulations, motorized is defined (293.6): (a) Mechanical transport, as herein used, shall include any contrivance which travels over ground, snow, or water on wheels, tracks,skids, or by floatation and is propelled by a nonliving power source contained or carried on or within the device. (b) Motorized equipment, as herein used, shall include any machine activated by a nonliving power source, except that small battery powered, hand-carried devices such as flashlights, shavers, and Geiger counters are not classed as motorized equipment. I think the key is that a mechanical advantage does not equal mechanized' Per Webster, the relevant definition of mechanize is: - to equip with machinery especially to replace human or animal labor The power source is still provided by a person, thus it is not mechanized. I think part (b) also answers the vexilar question. https://winapps.umt.edu/winapps/media2/wilderness/NWPS/documents/FS/FS_Wilderness_Regulations.pdf
smokingbunny	04/14/2022 01:48PM   Per Federal Code 43 CFR § 6301.5 Definitions - Management of Wilderness Areas Mechanical transport means any vehicle, device, or contrivance for moving people or material in or over land, water, snow, or air that has moving parts. This includes, but is not limited to, sailboats, sailboards, hang gliders, parachutes, bicycles, game carriers, carts, and wagons. The term does not include wheelchairs, nor does it include horses or other pack stock, skis, snowshoes, non-motorized river craft including, but not limited to, drift boats, rafts, and canoes, or sleds, travois, or similar devices without moving parts. Would think that drift boats & rafts (both having oars) would be saying that oars are not prohibited. Cheers Jakthund: "I think I might disagree that oars are not allowed. Looking at the regulations, motorized is defined (293.6): (a) Mechanical transport, as herein used, shall include any contrivance which travels over ground, snow, or water on wheels, tracks,skids, or by floatation and is propelled by a nonliving power source contained or carried on or within the device. (b) Motorized equipment, as herein used, shall include any machine activated by a nonliving power source, except that small battery powered, hand-carried devices such as flashlights, shavers, and Geiger counters are not classed as motorized equipment. I think the key is that a mechanical advantage does not equal mechanized' Per Webster, the relevant definition of mechanize is: - to equip with machinery especially to replace human or animal labor The power source is still provided by a person, thus it is not mechanized. I think part (b) also answers the vexilar question. https://winapps.umt.edu/winapps/media2/wilderness/NWPS/documents/FS/FS_Wilderness_Regulations.pdf"
HighnDry	04/13/2022 10:30PM   Great dreads.....never have to worry about combing that out....
sedges	04/12/2022 10:25PM   I row my 16 footer pretty regularly. Easily keep up with tandems and skinny kayaks. The seat hangs from the outriggers. the oars are 7', could probably use 7' 6". It also works as a tandem sitting facing the stern on the bow seat. Partner in the stern seat can paddle or just steer.
andym	04/12/2022 12:02PM   We have a Spring Creek rowing rig with 6-7 foot oars for a alumacraft canoe because my wife likes to row. It is basically impossible for me to keep up with her with a paddle. Throw in 9 foot competition oars, a sliding seat, and an elite rower and the thing will fly. Canoes are pretty good rowing craft! They aren’t going to be as fast as a true shell but those are lousy in rough water. Maybe they are close to an open water shell and faster than a rowing skiff. But yeah, against the rules for the BW. And you want it that way because rowers would crush us all getting to campsites.
jhb8426	04/12/2022 08:23PM   I see these listed on CL from time to time. Might want to check with the Forest Service as to if they are allowed. I frankly don't know why not.
thegildedgopher	04/13/2022 09:10AM   People seem to spend a lot of time questioning the logic of the BWCA rules. In the end, the only people who need to justify the logic are the ones setting the rules. The rest of us just get to make the personal choice to follow them, or justify our reasons for breaking them to ourselves. My understanding: the BWCA isn't a non-motorized wilderness area, it's a non-mechanized wilderness area. Specific exceptions have been for motorboat travel on a few select lakes. Rowing mechanism does not equal motorboat, therefore there is no exception that allows it. In my opinion those exceptions will never be expanded to include additional mechanized forms of travel. If anything, it will move in a more restrictive direction in the future.
andym	04/13/2022 12:43PM   fadersup: "Looks fun, but we have a hard enough time missing rocks when facing forward." There are forward facing rowing rigs but they are sufficiently complex that they are clearly a machine.
sedges	04/12/2022 10:40PM   I agree, though portaging the extra stuff would not be worth it for me. I would not hesitate to use oars on a lake that allows motors, legal or not. I am not sure what the rules are about oars and sails on motorized lakes. Anyone want to track that down?
Hammertime	04/12/2022 10:35PM   As a parent of 2 young children I think it would be perfect. The fact that these are illegal in the BW is ridiculous in my humble opinion.
DownStrm	04/12/2022 11:12PM   I can't wait to hear your rendition of "Row, Row, Row your Boat" on your next album. When can we start posting rowing pictures for the video? It will be even more popular than "Canoeing with Daddy."
Z4K	04/12/2022 11:31PM   Savage Voyageur: "I’ve seen one on Lake Four. " I saw two rigs like this on Lake Three in early July of 2017 and was blown away by how fast they were cruising. Has the regulation on this changed recently?
MikeinMpls	04/14/2022 01:03PM   One thing that I don't think has been mentioned is scenery and safety. I met a guy a long time ago who had a solo rowing set-up. Regardless of the technicality of the rules, he spoke enthusiastically about rowing LLC and Crooked and how much he loved the speed and efficiency. I asked him how he managaed to avoid water hazards...rocks, dead heads, etc. He said he just looked behind him often enough and felt as safe as he would be if he was paddling solo. I'd miss the scenery. I know where I've been...I would want to see where I'm going. I supposed one could fashion a rear-view mirror set-up, or maybe use a cycling mirror that attaches to glasses. I just don't think I could get used to it. Mike
andym	04/12/2022 11:16PM   Oars are considered a machine because they are a lever on a fixed fulcrum. Hence being disallowed in the BW. I can easily portage my wife’s canoe with the outriggers but would have a problem on narrow trails. Carbon fiber oars are quite light. A sliding seat would add some weight. But put two sliding seat setups in a tandem and that might be a real speedster. Would have to paint it red. It would seem fair to use oars or sails on a motor lake but I don’t know the rules. Wonder how a small foiling catamaran compares to a motorboat with a 25 horse engine. Hmmm
DownStrm	04/12/2022 11:19PM   cyclones30: "I agree in not thinking it would be allowed in the BW. But for anywhere else a cool rig " I wouldn't worry, the rangers aren't going to catch you in that canoe!
timatkn	04/13/2022 07:41AM   On a trip to lake 3 in 2000 we had a rowing canoe go by our camp. Seems to be a theme with this area. Must be a family or group that does this. I think it is pretty rare to see. Most likely the logistics of carrying it, but now I see it is considered a mechanical advantage and technically illegal so that is probably why too. T
A1t2o	04/13/2022 11:43AM   The rules state that anything that gives you a fixed mechanical advantage to travel is not allowed. For example, you could use a hand held sail, but not a fixed sail or rudder. This also applies to rowing, paddle boats, bicycles on land, and any new or crazy idea that someone comes up with and wants to try out in the boundary waters. The rule might seem a little dumb when you think about it from our perspective, but outsiders looking in might see the transportation issue a little differently and try different ideas. This rule just gives the FS the ability to reject different ideas that might be dumb, dangerous, or change the spirit of the boundary waters.
jwmiller39	04/13/2022 04:33PM   seems awfully silly that oars would be illegal in the bwca. I always thought it was funny that vexilars are allowed into the bwca in the winter because they technically have a [brushless] motor in them. So with that, you are allowed to bring a motor of sorts, but are not able to bring an oar. Makes a lot of sense.
em8260	04/13/2022 10:18PM   Jesus Christ, that hair....
scottiebaldwin	04/14/2022 03:24AM   Yeah, so... I'll pass. I'm not in that big a hurry to get anywhere while in the BWCA.
OneMatch	04/12/2022 10:10AM   Some of you may be following Ellen Falterman as she trains for her rowing adventure across the Atlantic. CW Goetz (The Camping Show) did a recent interview with her and she took him out in what appears to be a 17' Grumman set up with a pretty cool rowing rig. You can see moving crazy fast (Facebook link) here: Rowing A Canoe
Savage Voyageur	04/12/2022 11:17AM   Thats a nice setup there. I would like to try this. I’m just not sure if this is allowed to be used in the BWCA, although I’ve seen one on Lake Four.
cyclones30	04/12/2022 11:53AM   I agree in not thinking it would be allowed in the BW. But for anywhere else a cool rig
andym	04/13/2022 06:23AM   The rules have not changed. And while I’m not tempted to use oars for camping, I could see us day tripping on Lakes 1 to 4 with our rowing rig. My wife would love the motor free rowing space. Thinking about oars and sailboats on BWCA motor lakes: if they aren’t allowed then does it require a motor permit given that the FS considers them machines? If so, that would be one route to family camping with a rowboat. Although those permits are tough to get. Otherwise, one could rowboat camp on FS lakes that are outside the BW.
fadersup	04/13/2022 07:03AM   Looks fun, but we have a hard enough time missing rocks when facing forward.