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07/11/2022 09:06AM |
I do have to say I was impressed with their lashings, not going to lie. Still no excuse for what they did.
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07/11/2022 10:06AM |
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07/11/2022 10:16AM |
afromaniac: "I worked for the DNR in the metro area for a couple summers. Sounds nuts but we used to love trash bags. Always a bill or a piece of mail in there somewhere. A fun conversation to have with the citizen, "Hello, we found something of yours in the park. You can meet the officer there to retrieve it." "
That is what I was hoping in the situation I mentioned.
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07/11/2022 03:47PM |
afromaniac: "I worked for the DNR in the metro area for a couple summers. Sounds nuts but we used to love trash bags. Always a bill or a piece of mail in there somewhere. A fun conversation to have with the citizen, "Hello, we found something of yours in the park. You can meet the officer there to retrieve it." "
Ha! I love when the good guys win.
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07/05/2022 03:12PM |
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06/24/2022 12:11PM |
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06/21/2022 12:38PM |
Mattbrome: "I can remember watching the video every year as a kid growing up when we would go. We always called it the "bear" video as we all laughed at the scene where the couple would scare away a bear. Now it is far more relaxed and reliant on each leader to have reviewed the rules with members of the group and to make it a point to follow them.
On another note I have seen several suggestions on reporting the incident to the USFS. Does anyone have experience with this? What is the best way to report? We arrived on Wednesday June 8 and stayed 2 nights there. Like I mention in the video it was obvious the site had been occupied on either Monday or Tuesday June 6 or 7 when the damage occured. I am basing this on the fact that no rain water had accumulated in the oily pan left on the fire grate and they had rain Sunday June 5."
I paddled by that site early afternoon on June 6th and I could see that table thing from the water and the camp was unoccupied. Can't speak to the garbage, but it is likely the table was there prior to June 6th.
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06/21/2022 01:06PM |
shock: "i'd be happy to see a table ,(start the ripping) providing it was made from down/dead wood. many sites have rocks form to chairs , those stay up all the time.there use to be picnic tables in the BW and canoe rest. but YES this guys were slobs.leaving a pan/cutting board behind WTF. unfortunately i know TB has seen worse."
Agree. No need to destroy a useful table — the damage had already been done. Creating a table out of LIVE wood is another thing entirely.
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06/21/2022 02:43PM |
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06/21/2022 02:46PM |
The last picnic table I saw was on clove Lake in 1994. That's about the same time I saw the last canoe rest.
We could start a long discussion about man-made items that some might favor. In the end, none of it is permitted inside the wilderness. Outside of the wilderness- have a good time!
Tom
PS- (editorial time) barbless hooks are amazing. I started pinching off the barbs when going to Quetico. I don't lose more fish and can easily remove the hooks from fish. People really aught to try it. The barbed hook method was a marketing ploy by manufacturers. They get caught in fish mouths, nets, people and you have to tear them out of whatever they get caught in. They are truly awful.
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06/22/2022 07:22AM |
timatkn: "Hey what can I say I am a science guy…all of your “thoughts” are based on emotion and personal bias…which is very common. “I see this” or “I feel this way” just don’t pass the muster in research and science and is a common denominator for science deniers. There are 50-60 studies at least, more every year.
T"
Oh, sorry I used words like 'thoughts', 'feel' and 'I see this'.
Most of what you wrote is complete bullshit BTW. I'm a science guy too. And much of science is based on observation. The barbless hooks killing more fish is the biggest BS statement I've read on this forum in two years. Sorry man your science is flawed.
In your own post you say that barbless hooks kill more fish. Two sentences later you say there are studies that show the opposite. What science is that?
A barbed hook goes in flesh just as well as a barbless hook, it's going the other way that is the problem. Simple science there. And the DNR study did show fish damage to fish being caught with lures, especially when caught more than once so yes, damage to their mouths does happen.
And we'll agree to disagree.
Tom
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06/21/2022 03:29PM |
I can't help but think about Quetico and how it requires a long visit with a ranger to obtain your permit. The late Quetico ranger, Janice Matichuk, would spend upwards of an hour going over the rules and etiquette of the wilderness. I think of her presentation every time I douse a fire or dispose of fish entrails. Those meetings with the rangers are invaluable in maintaining a wilderness. Most outfitters do a great job of making sure their campers are educated, but other outfitters are going to have to step up their game in the U.S. or I'm afraid the government will inevitably get more involved in the permit process. This type of behavior is not sustainable long term.
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06/21/2022 04:16PM |
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06/21/2022 04:22PM |
This was our experience last September picking up a boat and permit at a well-known outfitter. We were never asked if we had seen the videos and were not asked to view them. We were not quizzed on LNT rules or any of the video content like in prior years at various outfitter permit pickups. The outfitter was not busy, we were the only ones there, although it was less than an hour from closing time. I support outfitters and am not dumping on them. Still, we were shocked there was no attempt made to follow the requirements.
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06/27/2022 08:09AM |
Spikes/ nails pounded into live trees, random axe carvings, birch trees completely stripped of their bark. More and more live trees cut down so someone can have a better view or hang their hammock. New tent pads made.
Almost always unburned garbage in the fire grate, food dumped on the ground, fish carcasses left in camp.
Noisy neighbors blasting music and partying until 4am. The list goes on.
It gets old. The group "leader" is not doing their job.
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06/27/2022 02:08PM |
CanoeKev: "shock: "i'd be happy to see a table ,(start the ripping) providing it was made from down/dead wood. many sites have rocks form to chairs , those stay up all the time.there use to be picnic tables in the BW and canoe rest. but YES this guys were slobs.leaving a pan/cutting board behind WTF. unfortunately i know TB has seen worse."
Agree. No need to destroy a useful table — the damage had already been done. Creating a table out of LIVE wood is another thing entirely. "
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07/02/2022 10:00AM |
"
Thank goodness the majority of us have the decency to leave a campsite nicer than we found it.
Tony "
Actually this can then lead into the discussion of defining "nicer". And if you do alter a campsite from how you found it--which, granted, is nearly impossible to NOT do--how is that abiding by "leave no trace". What really is the difference from the camper who cuts and leaves a pile of fire wood for the convenience of the next campers--a practice that is often lauded on this forum as a thoughtful way to "pay it forward"--from another camper who takes those same dead/downed sticks and lashes them together with bark strips and leaves them as a table for future campers' convenience-- a practice that is often frowned upon as an unacceptable alteration.
This debate could go on forever.
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07/02/2022 10:48AM |
Don't be "certain" the cigar smokers left the mess unless you saw them paddle from that campsite.
As regards higher fees leading to less mess, I think about my neighbors in Maine, some rich, some poor, and some in the middle. The middle class, by dint of necessity (We can't hire servants.) and middle class values, are most likely to keep a tidy home. The homes of the rich are also tidy, but they don't do the work, so I don't concede them the credit. Those living in trailers are most likely to have cluttered yards, but some trailers are neat as Versailles. Most landlords/ladies who've charged less and more for apartments/homes will tell you that charging more generally means less mess.
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07/12/2022 03:24PM |
Pinetree: "missmolly: "afromaniac: "I worked for the DNR in the metro area for a couple summers. Sounds nuts but we used to love trash bags. Always a bill or a piece of mail in there somewhere. A fun conversation to have with the citizen, "Hello, we found something of yours in the park. You can meet the officer there to retrieve it." "
Found at least 3 names in the garbage. That is only a fraction of the stuff at the Wildlife Management area.
Ha! I love when the good guys win.""
The MN DNR got a confession from two individuals they have to clean it up by today and show a receipt of delivering items to the County Sanitary landfill and I am sure a fine is coming also.
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07/02/2022 11:17AM |
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07/02/2022 11:55AM |
Canoearoo: "I hate to say it, but I have seen worse. One site was covered in dirty diapers, food, poop (too lazy to walk up the trail to the toilet?) garbage and so on. It reminded me of a discusting porta potty. Took a long time to clean up"
That is so gross. Barf. & I thought the used tampon applicators I found were disgusting lmao.
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07/02/2022 11:19AM |
missmolly: "John, that foam you saw on the shoreline might have been natural. I've seen it on Crown Land lakes that might see one canoe a year.
Don't be "certain" the cigar smokers left the mess unless you saw them paddle from that campsite.
As regards higher fees leading to less mess, I think about my neighbors in Maine, some rich, some poor, and some in the middle. The middle class, by dint of necessity (We can't hire servants.) and middle class values, are most likely to keep a tidy home. The homes of the rich are also tidy, but they don't do the work, so I don't concede them the credit. Those living in trailers are most likely to have cluttered yards, but some trailers are neat as Versailles. Most landlords/ladies who've charged less and more for apartments/homes will tell you that charging more generally means less mess. "
Hi MissMolly
I figured the suds were natural when paddling the lake until I perused around the site after finding the soap at the fire grate & found the glistening sheen on the shoreline where they were doing the deed. It was surely not all soap suds on the lake, though there was a clear abundance of glistening suds around the site & trailing from it down the shoreline.
I came to my determination regarding that group in particular based on what I saw at the site - the number of tracks/wear was indicative of a large group, tread of footwear tracks gave me a hunch as to what the footwear 'looked like'/the type & these campers were wearing the footwear i had envisioned, & the dog tracks which I saw at the site indicated a 'working dog' breed (shepard/husky sized prints) which this large group had with them. Their gear selection also indicated they were not 'regulars'. If I was certain, I would have 'named & shamed' them with the photos I took haha, though I chose not to confront them as there were several groups there waiting for a tow at the time. If it had been one or two coincidences I wouldn't have thought it was them, though enough coincidences lead to statistical improbability. I let my outfitter know & informed them of the other party's outfitter so they could chat about it if they chose to ask the group & 'make a positive ID'.
I'm with you on the 'clutter gradient' haha. My old man used to say that if you want to see how a tenant will keep their apartment, look in the trunk of their car. Some of the people I've known with the least respect for the property of others have also been the wealthiest.
If a cost increase was a tax stamp or something with a defined spend for, e.g., more park rangers & could not be spent at the whims of bureaucrats I'd be much less apprehensive. Idk though that more cost = better stewards of the park. Another group larger than mine which was in for a few days said they saw the fire & they paddled right past it (former scouts in the group too) - I'm sure the parents of the group were not 'poor'/had gainful employment.
Imho, poor stewards of the park are often young/new to the park (e.g. folks leaving bushcraft junk) or if seasoned they were not led on their first trip by a responsible steward & formed bad habits (e.g. partially burnt trash). Bad habits are often learned/habits formed on that first trip. I blame group leaders, the buck stops with them. My first trip up as a young adult one member of the group started whacking a live tree even though I explained the rules to him clearly ahead of time - I chewed him out & he never went with me again, others in the group were respectful of the park & went on subsequent trips.
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07/12/2022 03:20PM |
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06/21/2022 03:37PM |
Some of it bothers me more than others. In this case, I think I would have only had a real problem and been left stating WTF at the cast iron pan as I come to realization that i'm carrying that stupid thing out.
The rest, the spear and fishing pole would have been disassembled and burned, small garbage added to my own little garbage collection and packed out and the table would have been left assembled, but moved back to a more discreet spot.
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07/05/2022 05:33PM |
airmorse: "myceliaman: "I’ve stated this before and caught serious flack for it. You should be required to either report to the outfitter or to a ranger station what site you stayed at and when. Accountability. There is zero accountability !!"
I'll go one further. Campsite reservations. "
That would wreck so much of the experience and feeling free and for many like myself you may want to see much of the BWCA as you can and your there to paddle until you get tired that day.
Were all talking about wrecked camps, but in reality, I think people are doing a better job of following rules ever. The slobs should not dictate what and where we can go. Also, bad weather you have a designated campsite, many times you have to hold up. You would be forced to move on no matter what the weather was.
What about people who leave early and have campsites designated for a week. Now nobody can use them.
There was time you went camping and they gave you a litter bag with a specific number for your trip. You were supposed to hang it by shore at your campsite.
People want to move around, and nature and weather dictates here you will end up that night.
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06/21/2022 04:54PM |
I'm sure whoever built it thought they were really doing a service to the next group. In the end, all they did was disregard the LNT principals that make the Boundary Waters a special place for all of us to visit.
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06/21/2022 06:46PM |
ockycamper: "We have found that you get a lot less of "that" kind of crowd when you move to the Gunflint area and away from Ely. . . .move to September/October as opposed to summer. . .and try to camp as remote as possible."
Hasn't been my experience, at all. They're everywhere, in every season now, and they go to every entry point, "remote" or not. Watched a guy on YouTube "teach" viewers how to cut down pine branches on live pines for fatwood. Watched a Joe Robinet video as he tossed aside a dead male white-winged crossbill, calling it a "cardinal", as if he couldn't care less. Watched another one with a guy cutting down 100 yr. old spruce in the boreal for his "fish table". Watched another guy "play" an ancient lake trout in August from many feet deep. Pull it in and "released it". The fish won't survive that yank through the thermoclime. People watch all that behavior, then they go emulate it. I try to remain optimistic, but some days are more difficult than other.
I hope Matt calls it in. I hope the USFS Ely District follows up on it.
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06/21/2022 06:42PM |
Please contact the USFS.
We can sit on this board and debate for weeks on end what we would feel or think about a bushcraft table, or how to approach that person who crafted it. But, in the end, you simply need to let the USFS what you found, when you found it, where you found it, and any evidence of the person who left it. Beyond that, it's just spitting in the wind.
here
and here:
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07/08/2022 08:33PM |
Thats only part of the garbage in one dumping.
Then be it the MN DNR or BWCA rangers-you ask what they do with all their money. So much is spent on damage control from a few bad pigs, but we all pay for it in a less pristine area and money that could have spent ElseWare.
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06/23/2022 10:14AM |
Hey, I care! I love those guys!!! ;-)
Thanks for the info.
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06/21/2022 08:13AM |
My wife and I took a group into Algonquin a couple of years ago. On our way out we found something similar at a site along a river. On the last portage out, we actually caught up to the two guys who had left it. They had woefully overpacked for the trip and thought that they were doing everyone a favor by leaving a few things behind.
We had a nice chat with them, explained the leave no trace ethic. They moved on, a bit chagrined. We moved on -- with their trash :), but the end result was a much cleaner campsite. There are probably more punitive measures that can/should be taken, but continual re-education might be the path forward as the BWCA hosts more visitors....just a thought.
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06/21/2022 09:07AM |
On another note I have seen several suggestions on reporting the incident to the USFS. Does anyone have experience with this? What is the best way to report? We arrived on Wednesday June 8 and stayed 2 nights there. Like I mention in the video it was obvious the site had been occupied on either Monday or Tuesday June 6 or 7 when the damage occured. I am basing this on the fact that no rain water had accumulated in the oily pan left on the fire grate and they had rain Sunday June 5.
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06/20/2022 02:18PM |
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06/20/2022 05:06PM |
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06/20/2022 05:32PM |
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06/20/2022 01:59PM |
Boot Lake Campsite Left In Shambles
And when we left, the follow up video...
Boot Lake Campsite Restored
To Tom, wherever you are, you and your group should be ashamed. Thanks for the free cast iron pan (which I got home and shined up like new).
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06/20/2022 02:19PM |
It was also clear they had cleaned up supper down by the shore as there were a few cups of rice and also noodles dumped in the water at the landing.
In 2020 my wife and I went on a trip through Agnus you could hear a radio playing loudly down the lake. We also had lots of trash in the latrine and a dirty diaper left in the fire pit.
You just have to wonder what people are thinking....
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06/20/2022 04:22PM |
Most importantly you got a nice prize. The cast iron skillet is a nice reward for your efforts and worth some money too.
I bet Tom don’t have a b@@ner now especially since there is at least even chances someone from their group might find this thread.
Tom,( not the one with a bo@@ner).
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06/20/2022 03:25PM |
Mattbrome: "...You just have to wonder what people are thinking...."
They are thinking only of themselves. Not sure what the answer is, but I believe that making even deeper cuts into the number of permits available and charging people a per person/per day rate as is the case in Quetico would be a big help.
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06/20/2022 03:38PM |
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06/20/2022 04:56PM |
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06/20/2022 05:51PM |
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06/20/2022 06:27PM |
When I arrived the dozens of cut brush sticks that were later used to build the table were piled up, obviously green. Ticked me off. There were a couple of carved bow and arrow things left near the fire. I packed out the laces and a few other things I found that were not natural. Everything else you found must have been subsequent campers. Which means two groups left the same site in bad shape.
It is so disheartening to find crap left all over the place. Especially when it is so easy to leave a clean camp.
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06/20/2022 09:42PM |
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06/21/2022 06:14AM |
Frenchy19: "Mattbrome: "...You just have to wonder what people are thinking...."
They are thinking only of themselves. Not sure what the answer is, but I believe that making even deeper cuts into the number of permits available and charging people a per person/per day rate as is the case in Quetico would be a big help. "
I said it a few years ago but less permits, mandatory barbless hooks, no live bait, and higher daily fees will help keep out the riff raff. The BW is no wilderness but imo the proliferation of YouTube channels showing “bushcraft” does a lot to contribute to the cutting of live trees, building things etc.
If the powers that be don’t wake up imo the BW will soon resemble a fished out trashed up state park.
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06/21/2022 07:15AM |
TomT: "Frenchy19: "Mattbrome: "...You just have to wonder what people are thinking...."
They are thinking only of themselves. Not sure what the answer is, but I believe that making even deeper cuts into the number of permits available and charging people a per person/per day rate as is the case in Quetico would be a big help. "
I said it a few years ago but less per
I don't have a problem in principle with the fee structure if I'm being objective. But I assumed there would be a significant discount for under 18s as there is under the traditional fee schedule. Is that not the case? mits, mandatory barbless hooks, no live bait, and higher daily fees will help keep out the riff raff. The BW is no wilderness but imo the proliferation of YouTube channels showing “bushcraft” does a lot to contribute to the cutting of live trees, building things etc.
If the powers that be don’t wake up imo the BW will soon resemble a fished out trashed up state park. "
Funny that you say that. We just might find a bushcraft video of these yahoos on this date at this very site on YouTube eventually. I wouldn't put it by them.
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06/21/2022 11:06AM |
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06/21/2022 07:54AM |
Live bait? Too easy to decimate a fish population. Use it in state parks but a healthy fishery in the BW is needed. There’s a stark difference in the quality of fishing in the BW vs Quetico. What’s the difference? Less people no barbs no bait.
Hey I’m good with whatever becomes of the BW because it’s not on my radar for doing trips anymore. And if they close the northern border I’ll do something else. I’ve been going to the BW since 1983 and I’m not a fan of what it’s become.
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06/21/2022 07:46AM |
TomT: "Frenchy19: "Mattbrome: "...You just have to wonder what people are thinking...."
They are thinking only of themselves. Not sure what the answer is, but I believe that making even deeper cuts into the number of permits available and charging people a per person/per day rate as is the case in Quetico would be a big help. "
I said it a few years ago but less permits, mandatory barbless hooks, no live bait, and higher daily fees will help keep out the riff raff. The BW is no wilderness but imo the proliferation of YouTube channels showing “bushcraft” does a lot to contribute to the cutting of live trees, building things etc.
If the powers that be don’t wake up imo the BW will soon resemble a fished out trashed up state park. "
The statement about barbless hooks and live bait is completely without merit in my opinion. There is no data-driven correlation between these things and abuse of the wilderness. The vast majority of anglers using these two methods are great stewards of our resources, end of story.
Fewer permits and higher fees -- maybe. The worst of the worst will just say "I don't need a permit anyway" because this is the attitude of the entitlement that goes hand-in-hand with the kind of behavior the OP documented. In the meantime you've limited access to the wilderness for all the good people too. What does that accomplish?
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06/21/2022 07:38AM |
Barney: "Now, men, the key to wilderness survival is whittlin'. Everything a man needs to survive is provided by good, ol' Mother Nature, as long as a man has his whittlin' knife."
A Weeb-Woe Scout: "Gee, Barney, what can you whittle?"
Barney: "That's an excellent question. Now, if a man has his trusty, whittlin' knife, he can feed himself by whittlin' a fishing pole. 'Where will he prepare and eat that fish?' you may ask. Well, he can whittle a table. 'And how will he survive the night?' you may also ask. Well, he can whittle himself a Mongolian Death Spear, identical to the one used by Attila the Hun. Follow closely as I proceed to demonstrate the essentials of wilderness whittlin'."
Barney proceeds to cut off the tip of his thumb.
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06/21/2022 08:48AM |
HighnDry: "Thanks for cleaning up that site. It's not a welcome you'd expect when landing at a BWCA camp! I hope you were able to pass along what you found to the USFS. Education is important for folks to learn the do's and don'ts of the backcountry.
My wife and I took a group into Algonquin a couple of years ago. On our way out we found something similar at a site along a river. On the last portage out, we actually caught up to the two guys who had left it. They had woefully overpacked for the trip and thought that they were doing everyone a favor by leaving a few things behind.
We had a nice chat with them, explained the leave no trace ethic. They moved on, a bit chagrined. We moved on -- with their trash :), but the end result was a much cleaner campsite. There are probably more punitive measures that can/should be taken, but continual re-education might be the path forward as the BWCA hosts more visitors....just a thought."
I'm not gonna say where, BUT...Hard to educate people when there is no review of the rules when you pick up your permit. I was shocked. Watched the 3rd video. Signed the permit and that was IT.
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06/21/2022 09:17AM |
TomT: "Gilded gopher, barbed hooks leads to way more fish mortality. If you don’t believe that, well it’s common sense friend.
Live bait? Too easy to decimate a fish population. Use it in state parks but a healthy fishery in the BW is needed. There’s a stark difference in the quality of fishing in the BW vs Quetico. What’s the difference? Less people no barbs no bait.
Hey I’m good with whatever becomes of the BW because it’s not on my radar for doing trips anymore. And if they close the northern border I’ll do something else. I’ve been going to the BW since 1983 and I’m not a fan of what it’s become. "
I'm not arguing those points, TomT. This is a discussion about LNT ethics, not about fish mortality. Slobs who don't practice LNT are no more or less likely to use barbed hooks or live bait. That was the entirety of my argument.
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06/21/2022 11:58AM |
"On another note I have seen several suggestions on reporting the incident to the USFS. Does anyone have experience with this? What is the best way to report? We arrived on Wednesday June 8 and stayed 2 nights there. Like I mention in the video it was obvious the site had been occupied on either Monday or Tuesday June 6 or 7 when the damage occured. I am basing this on the fact that no rain water had accumulated in the oily pan left on the fire grate and they had rain Sunday June 5."
I would report it to the USFS ranger district office or the main office. There's a list of phone numbers on the website somewhere.
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06/21/2022 07:00PM |
tumblehome: "I have destroyed homemade tables in the BWCA before. I always destroy anything man-made in camps except the latrine and firegrate.
The last picnic table I saw was on clove Lake in 1994. That's about the same time I saw the last canoe rest.
We could start a long discussion about man-made items that some might favor. In the end, none of it is permitted inside the wilderness. Outside of the wilderness- have a good time!
Tom
PS- (editorial time) barbless hooks are amazing. I started pinching off the barbs when going to Quetico. I don't lose more fish and can easily remove the hooks from fish. People really aught to try it. The barbed hook method was a marketing ploy by manufacturers. They get caught in fish mouths, nets, people and you have to tear them out of whatever they get caught in. They are truly awful."
I remember that picnic table on Clove Lake! Last one I remember, too. On that same trip there was one on Sag close to the outlet.
Mike
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06/21/2022 07:33PM |
shock: "i'd be happy to see a table ,(start the ripping) providing it was made from down/dead wood. many sites have rocks form to chairs , those stay up all the time.there use to be picnic tables in the BW and canoe rest. but YES this guys were slobs.leaving a pan/cutting board behind WTF. unfortunately i know TB has seen worse."
Someone see's this and they just get more ideas and think it's okay to break the rules. They see the table and decide to build something else. The next group adds to the collection, etc. The best thing we can do is destroy the evidence, break the chain, and provide a good example.
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06/21/2022 08:09PM |
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06/21/2022 08:20PM |
TomT: "Gilded gopher, barbed hooks leads to way more fish mortality. If you don’t believe that, well it’s common sense friend.
"
I use barbless hooks, but the devils advocate in me can’t leave this statement alone.
The current research studies do not support your statement that barbed hooks lead to way more fish mortality. It is situational at best, but not based on science at all.
Quetico Park admitted this as well when they banned barbed hooks. They stated the research doesn’t support it in reducing fish mortality but they were tired of making emergency extractions due to fisherman with a barbed hook buried into their body. Barbless reduced costs was their reason for banning barbed hooks.
Believe it or not in some studies barbless hooks actually increase mortality since they have less resistance and can go in deeper thus causing more arterial damage. A 2016 Mille Lacs walleye study showed barbless had a higher delayed hooking mortality than barbless…thus reversing the ruling to make Mille Lacs barbless.
In the end the research shows it’s a wash since it depends on more where the fish is hooked and what type of hook does more damage in each specific instance.
Sometimes barbless is better, sometimes barbed is better at reducing mortality. 10-20 years ago many places started banning barbed hooks but you’ve seen a reversal or a slow down in this due to the mounting evidence.
MN DNR looking at barbless research
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06/21/2022 09:28PM |
Can you really say with a straight face that barbed hooks are less harmful to a fish when releasing the hook(s) from their mouth? You can’t
Is there no ‘conclusive’ evidence that barbless hooks are less prone to fish mortality only because there is not sufficient studies, thus not ‘conclusive’ evidence?
Any human being that has caught fish over the years with both barbless and barbed hooks will know that barbless hooks are removed much more easily. I don’t need a study for that.
Two weeks ago I removed a Rapala from a large northern pike over 30” and I was elated to know my hooks were barbless and the lure was removed quickly. I have done the same with barbed hooks on lures and it’s not pretty getting three treble hooks with three hooks each out of the mouth of those razor teeth. That’s conclusive!
If Quetico banned barbs because of chronic injuries to people and the difficulty in removing the hooks from flesh, would a reasonable person not say that it is the same when embedded in the flesh of a fish?
Tom
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06/21/2022 09:51PM |
So yes with a straight face I can tell you the DNR caught hundreds of walleyes side by side with barbless and barbed and the barbless killed more. Numerous studies show the same thing. The reason being is barbless hooksets near gills do more damage…they tend to rip through the gills… while a barbed hooks tend to catch before the gills- doing less damage. Mouth damage is a low predictor for fish mortality...so I believe your observed examples but they look bad…just doesn’t really hurt the fish. Oh you can find studies the other way too…what that means though is it simply doesn’t matter what type of hook you use. To be honest the studies either way are usually statistically insignificant—-which is what I said to begin with.
If you want to save fish…quick hook sets or artificials keep hooks away from gills, wet your hands before touching fish, use proper line don’t play fish out, net them with a rubber coated net, don’t beach the canoe and land them in shallow warm water, minimize time you handle the fish and have them out of the water, and don’t pull fish you intend to release from deep cold water in warm weather. Those all make a difference but barbless…is just a feel good thing for the most part.
Keep using barbless…I use it too…easier to get out of the net/clothing/myself. You just aren’t going to see the MN DNR enforce barbless though. In fact they have recommended rolling back barbless restrictions based off the mounting research. Not because barbless is bad…just doesn’t matter. We shouldn’t be shaming people to use them either though.
T
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06/21/2022 11:09PM |
missmolly: "Those idiots aren't paddlers. They're cospaddlers, pretending it's still 1959. I'm pretty sure that Barney Fife was their Weeb-Woe Scout leader and here's the moment they learned their woodcraft:
Barney: "Now, men, the key to wilderness survival is whittlin'. Everything a man needs to survive is provided by good, ol' Mother Nature, as long as a man has his whittlin' knife."
A Weeb-Woe Scout: "Gee, Barney, what can you whittle?"
Barney: "That's an excellent question. Now, if a man has his trusty, whittlin' knife, he can feed himself by whittlin' a fishing pole. 'Where will he prepare and eat that fish?' you may ask. Well, he can whittle a table. 'And how will he survive the night?' you may also ask. Well, he can whittle himself a Mongolian Death Spear, identical to the one used by Attila the Hun. Follow closely as I proceed to demonstrate the essentials of wilderness whittlin'."
Barney proceeds to cut off the tip of his thumb.
"
ROTFL!! Well written Miss Molly! You scripted it so well I could picture the whole sequence of events. I’ll bet it was just like that for these yahoos. Thank goodness the majority of us have the decency to leave a campsite nicer than we found it.
Tony
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06/22/2022 07:32AM |
Tom and T, just how do they ascertain mortality? I caught a small bass years ago and it was badly hooked. When I released it, it floundered, but shortly afterward, I found it floating and I wasn't surprised because I had hurt it. However, that was my only "mortality" sighting in decades of fishing. I do release most fish in the water and when I photograph, it's usually one fast photo.
However, as a kid, my catching and releasing led to a score of more of bluegills floating and flipping on the surface. Maybe I am killing some fish and eagles or turtles are eating them, but I would think I'd see a few beyond that one bass over the decades, especially since I return to my favorite fishing holes day after day.
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06/22/2022 08:35AM |
I love science. I did research for Gatorade on anti-oxidants when I was in grad school. I can tell you to this day that my observations in our research would be anti-oxidants would reduce cell tissue damage and speed up recovery…but our double blinded studies never showed any statistical difference. That’s why we do studies. Observations are often flawed and biased…and Gatorade rightfully never advertised the benefits of adding anti-oxidants to their drinks and eventually stopped adding them in altogether. Just added that as it was a lesson for me I go back to all the time to check myself.
Tumblehome… Not trying to change people from using barbless. You think they benefit your fishing…then they benefit your specific situation with fishing. I said some studies show barbless helps, some show they are worse…it really depends on the type of fishing and where the fish is hooked. Not sure about your angst…despite your accusations I haven’t wavered or contradicted myself on this…when studies are mixed like this it means overall there is no statistical difference between the two types of hooks. There simply isn’t a body of evidence to support a ban on barbed hooks. Why else would the MN DNR advocate to take the restriction off of trout streams as the research has increased? The MN DNR was all set to ban barbs on Mille Lacs…until they did their 2016 delayed hooking mortality studies on walleyes.
My only argument is when people say essentially it’s a slam dunk that barbless is better for fish mortality…there just isn’t a legitimate body of evidence to support those thoughts right now. It’s just personal opinion. I agree with all of the counter points you said on getting hooks out, observed damage…I use barbless too… Barbless should be better…but it just isn’t.
T
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06/20/2022 04:37PM |
Please report it to the USFS there in Ely if you have not done so already.
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06/22/2022 08:45PM |
Here's what I'm wondering now: On some Crown Land lakes, my partner and I have averaged over a hundred fish per day. Some days, I've caught a hundred by myself. We visit the same spots over and over again, so if I were killing fish through catch and release, wouldn't I start seeing them after a few days? Or do they sink and not rise to the surface until they rot and bloat?
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06/22/2022 08:51PM |
missmolly: "T, thanks for explaining how they determined mortality.
Here's what I'm wondering now: On some Crown Land lakes, my partner and I have averaged over a hundred fish per day. Some days, I've caught a hundred by myself. We visit the same spots over and over again, so if I were killing fish through catch and release, wouldn't I start seeing them after a few days? Or do they sink and not rise to the surface until they rot and bloat? "
You’re are getting out of my comfort zone on commenting. I’d defer to a fish biologist. What I’ve heard is most fish sink, maybe later as you said they bloat and float. This has been seen on Mille Lacs in the past, where the shores get lined with dead delayed hooking mortality walleyes that apparently were okay. Although I’ve heard as walleye anglers have learned catch and release that number is much less.
It’s complicated though. Fish species, water depth, water temps, air temps, health of the fishery, angler experience can all play a roll. For walleyes In cold water, cold weather delayed hooking mortality can be virtually zero as long as the hook doesn’t get into the gills. Same fishery in the heat of the summer I think it can rise to 12%. Smallmouth bass would be lower delayed hooking I would assume than walleye...but I am not aware of specific SMB studies so that’s a guess at best. Just referencing a 2007 Mille Lacs Walleye study…that study they used live bait and most studies show live bait has a slightly higher delayed hooking mortality so for your specfic situation I wouldn’t think you are hurting the fishery…plus it’s probably SMB so who cares :)
T
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06/25/2022 03:09PM |
Maybe a bear stole it from their campsite.
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07/02/2022 08:07AM |
Frenchy19: "Mattbrome: charging people a per person/per day rate as is the case in Quetico would be a big help. ""
I respectfully disagree.
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07/02/2022 07:58AM |
On 6/17 when passing through Ensign to complete a resupply I came across an empty campsite with an active untended fire... I was very perturbed by the condition in which the camp was left - they even left behind the remaining third from their bottle of dawn dish soap (ultra concentrated for good measure) which they'd been using in the lake (it sure explained the bubbly surface down the eastern shoreline).
Fortunately, I was a bit ahead of schedule & was able to clean it up.
I'm convinced I saw the perpetrators awaiting their tow at the Splash Lake portage. I took the dish soap from my trash bag & set it on the ground for them to see along with a long glare - they weren't too chatty/looking in my direction after that haha.
On my return trip I passed the site again & folks were there setting up camp - I was glad that I passed the site when I did so that the site's new residents weren't greeted with that situation.
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07/02/2022 08:08AM |
Savage Voyageur: "Thanks for cleaning up the mess. I’ve said it for years that the BWCA camping rates should be like what Quetico has. Every time I mentioned it someone pipes up and says it needs to be affordable for all. I agree somewhat and think increased fees might help with some of this. "
Because only people with lots of cash to throw around clean up after themselves & the 'unwashed masses of the poor' are just slobs?
The group I am certain trashed the site I cleaned up had oodles of nice gear & were smoking cigars on the crowded portage while awaiting their tow...
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07/04/2022 08:56AM |
Canoearoo: "I hate to say it, but I have seen worse. One site was covered in dirty diapers, food, poop (too lazy to walk up the trail to the toilet?) garbage and so on. It reminded me of a discusting porta potty. Took a long time to clean up"
For sure if that is the worse you have come across consider your self lucky.
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07/04/2022 09:13PM |
I seen the guys when I was going in on that portage. I didn't find enough about them but found they lived about 60 miles from the BWCA with a little investigation, and I think they were making a statement they didn't like the BWCA as it was set up. Yes there are pigs thruout the country.
I seen more than once like Gull Lake a group throws tin foil and cans around. Why? They are trying to discourage others from camping on that lake.
Also seen a group on North bay of Basswood deliberately stick poop and toilet paper in the ground where your four corners of a tent would be.
I got more stories- beer cans stuck at the portages north of Prairie portage in Quetico brought in via illegal snowmobile activity in the winter. They also cut down a big tree and had a taunting note on it by West Lake.
I believe some of those guys were caught along the border in the winter by various law enforcement people many years later after they were going in there for more than a decade.
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07/04/2022 09:26PM |
missmolly: "Those idiots aren't paddlers. They're cospaddlers, pretending it's still 1959. I'm pretty sure that Barney Fife was their Weeb-Woe Scout leader and here's the moment they learned their woodcraft:
Barney: "Now, men, the key to wilderness survival is whittlin'. Everything a man needs to survive is provided by good, ol' Mother Nature, as long as a man has his whittlin' knife."
A Weeb-Woe Scout: "Gee, Barney, what can you whittle?"
Barney: "That's an excellent question. Now, if a man has his trusty, whittlin' knife, he can feed himself by whittlin' a fishing pole. 'Where will he prepare and eat that fish?' you may ask. Well, he can whittle a table. 'And how will he survive the night?' you may also ask. Well, he can whittle himself a Mongolian Death Spear, identical to the one used by Attila the Hun. Follow closely as I proceed to demonstrate the essentials of wilderness whittlin'."
Barney proceeds to cut off the tip of his thumb. "
Yes, and Barney getting lost and his cooked chicken on his hot fire episode.
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07/05/2022 02:01PM |
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07/05/2022 05:17PM |
myceliaman: "I’ve stated this before and caught serious flack for it. You should be required to either report to the outfitter or to a ranger station what site you stayed at and when. Accountability. There is zero accountability !!"
I'll go one further. Campsite reservations.
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07/05/2022 09:31PM |
airmorse: "myceliaman: "I’ve stated this before and caught serious flack for it. You should be required to either report to the outfitter or to a ranger station what site you stayed at and when. Accountability. There is zero accountability !!"
I'll go one further. Campsite reservations. "
Reservations is how it is done in the Sylvania Wilderness in the Michigan UP. Makes for a bit different experience but I think the system worked fine. Last year was my first trip there and I was a little apprehensive about the reservation system "ruining my freedom" that I seek (and get) from the BWCA by dictating to me where to camp. Conversely, I actually felt freedom from the pressure of finding a campsite and just enjoyed leisurly exploration of the lakes since I knew I'd have a site available no matter how late in the day we got there.
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07/05/2022 09:31PM |
airmorse: "myceliaman: "I’ve stated this before and caught serious flack for it. You should be required to either report to the outfitter or to a ranger station what site you stayed at and when. Accountability. There is zero accountability !!"
I'll go one further. Campsite reservations. "
Reservations is how it is done in the Sylvania Wilderness in the Michigan UP. Makes for a bit different experience but I think the system worked fine. Last year was my first trip there and I was a little apprehensive about the reservation system "ruining my freedom" that I seek (and get) from the BWCA by dictating to me where to camp. Conversely, I actually felt freedom from the pressure of finding a campsite and just enjoyed leisurly exploration of the lakes since I knew I'd have a site available no matter how late in the day we got there.
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07/06/2022 06:56AM |
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07/07/2022 03:56PM |
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07/07/2022 01:55PM |
Chieflonewatie: "It works in Sylvania because the park is so small and the lakes are not that large. It would never work in the BW.
"
I agree been to the Sylvania very different then the BWCA.
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07/07/2022 04:08PM |
treehorn: "IF - and that's a big if - a table like that was made from downed and dead wood, I see little difference between it, and the campfire log furniture that adorns almost every site up there, or even the rock walls around firepits that curb the wind. Man made items to make camp more comfortable. Yet we all happily tolerate the sitting logs & stumps & windbreaking rocks, but seem disgusted by the table. Kinda weird."
You got to draw the line somewhere and a table would be very disgusting and worse as you go further in. A State Park would be where the table belongs. I do accept a table if it is over 50 years old there.
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07/08/2022 12:02AM |
treehorn: "IF - and that's a big if - a table like that was made from downed and dead wood, I see little difference between it, and the campfire log furniture that adorns almost every site up there, or even the rock walls around firepits that curb the wind. Man made items to make camp more comfortable. Yet we all happily tolerate the sitting logs & stumps & windbreaking rocks, but seem disgusted by the table. Kinda weird."
or leaving a pile of firewood to make camp more comfortble for the next guy. That's a man made item that's not only tolerated, it's encouraged.
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07/08/2022 12:12AM |
treehorn: "IF - and that's a big if - a table like that was made from downed and dead wood, I see little difference between it, and the campfire log furniture that adorns almost every site up there, or even the rock walls around firepits that curb the wind. Man made items to make camp more comfortable. Yet we all happily tolerate the sitting logs & stumps & windbreaking rocks, but seem disgusted by the table. Kinda weird."
I am guessing it is tongue and cheek with some added dramatic effect to some extent…because I do get we don’t want to encourage people building stuff…you get to the “where do ya draw the line” area or out of control pretty quick…but I get your point tree horn…some the responses are a little psychotic…makes you think they roll into a nice site, day was going great, and then they see a table… freak out…”no not a table” “hulk smash” ruining their trip :) I am sure it is the former. I doubt it ruins the trip or in the whole scheme of things is actually a huge deal to them…reading vs. talking to someone you lose that…I’d be willing to bet if someone destroys a creation they enjoy/use it a little first ;)
T
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07/11/2022 04:45PM |
missmolly: "afromaniac: "I worked for the DNR in the metro area for a couple summers. Sounds nuts but we used to love trash bags. Always a bill or a piece of mail in there somewhere. A fun conversation to have with the citizen, "Hello, we found something of yours in the park. You can meet the officer there to retrieve it." "
Found at least 3 names in the garbage. That is only a fraction of the stuff at the Wildlife Management area.
Ha! I love when the good guys win."
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07/11/2022 09:25PM |
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07/12/2022 04:35PM |
T
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07/12/2022 07:10AM |
whyzata: "Never was a barbless hook fan but became one after fishing North Shore streams. Also, I leave my bait at home. Just more stuff to haul around. I Bring two or three poles and a small, 6" x 12" fishing kit. Seems to work well in keeping the weight down. Also, after a trip to Sylvania where barbless hooks are mandatory I was impressed with the fishery. The lakes are loaded with 2-5 pound Smallies and Largemouths and The Northern and Walleye population seems to be thriving also. So, I am a believer in the barbless hook policy.. "
It’s certainly possible the fishing is also good because it has low pressure and VERY restrictive regs. No live or dead bait, some lakes in Sylvania even have restrictions scented plastics and only artificial lures can be used. For bass it’s completely catch and release—it’s illegal to keep one single fish. For walleye, Northern and Lake trout the possession limit is one and that one fish has to be over 20”, 30”, 30” respectively. But even then many lakes in Sylvania are catch and release only for all species with special lake specific regs. It’s essentially managed as a trophy fishery and with those length and possession limits—-it on on a practical purpose makes walleye, Northern, Lakers catch and release as well. All of those of other regs are way more likley to be responsible for your observed health of the fishery—it’s a massive leap to attribute any of that to barbless with so many other restrictive regs. Most likley the length limits and the catch and release are main factors affecting the fishery according to the Michigan DNR. Those have more research and history to back them up.
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07/17/2022 03:15PM |
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06/20/2022 10:01PM |
Thanks for cleaning this up! Thank goodness there are more people like you than them to keep the BWCAW in good shape.
T