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07/20/2023 10:37PM |
treehorn: "I think we all knew how this thread would go!!"
I must be dense for not seeing this when I posted.
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07/21/2023 08:03AM |
NEIowapaddler: "I hate to be "that guy", but it seems to me that carving stuff and then leaving it behind kinda violates the principle of LNT, doesn't it? Especially things like that sign. Or am I way off base in thinking that..."
No. You're not off base at all, imo. I cringe when I see crap like that up there. Save it for a State Park.
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07/21/2023 08:19AM |
Boppasteveg: "NEIowapaddler: "I hate to be "that guy", but it seems to me that carving stuff and then leaving it behind kinda violates the principle of LNT, doesn't it? Especially things like that sign. Or am I way off base in thinking that..."
No. You're not off base at all, imo. I cringe when I see crap like that up there. Save it for a State Park."
I think that hits on the issue. BWCA is not a state park. It is a designated wilderness area. Things that are appropriate and common in state parks are not in the BWCA.
That is also why we moved to remote lakes off Gunflint and go in the fall. Far fewer people and the "state park" crowd seems to like the Ely area better.
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07/21/2023 11:35AM |
bobbernumber3: "treehorn: "I think we all knew how this thread would go!!"
I must be dense for not seeing this when I posted."
While you are sadly correct, I do apologize for being one who pushed it this way.... I was honestly curious, not looking to start a debate. Should have known better.
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07/21/2023 01:32PM |
Barca: "bobbernumber3: "treehorn: "I think we all knew how this thread would go!!"
I must be dense for not seeing this when I posted."
While you are sadly correct, I do apologize for being one who pushed it this way.... I was honestly curious, not looking to start a debate. Should have known better. "
You never know where a converstion will go. Not your fault for asking your question.
I was just looking for ideas and thinking something would come up that I could use for winter camping. Last winter I whittled a shovel from cherry for cleaning out my stove. And LNT'ers... I did not pick up the shavings!!
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07/20/2023 05:32AM |
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07/15/2023 08:40PM |
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07/15/2023 10:42PM |
NEIowapaddler: "I hate to be "that guy", but it seems to me that carving stuff and then leaving it behind kinda violates the principle of LNT, doesn't it? Especially things like that sign. Or am I way off base in thinking that..."
_____________
Oh Christ!... go ahead and hijack my post with LNT BS. Yes, you are "THAT GUY"! I'm so glad I didn't sign the Oath of Dignity and Respect that I can rip into your comment....
Back to topic... what about the damn craft projects you guys make?? other than camp chairs, picnic tables and furniture.
_____________
Hey NEIP. Actually, I never thought about a left craft project being a LNT violation, but I always think about it when I see a rock cairn! Good point!
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07/16/2023 09:01AM |
bobbernumber3: "NEIowapaddler: "I hate to be "that guy", but it seems to me that carving stuff and then leaving it behind kinda violates the principle of LNT, doesn't it? Especially things like that sign. Or am I way off base in thinking that..."
_____________
Oh Christ!... go ahead and hijack my post with LNT BS. Yes, you are "THAT GUY"! I'm so glad I didn't sign the Oath of Dignity and Respect that I can rip into your comment....
Back to topic... what about the damn craft projects you guys make?? other than camp chairs, picnic tables and furniture.
_____________
Hey NEIP. Actually, I never thought about a left craft project being a LNT violation, but I always think about it when I see a rock cairn! Good point!"
Really
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07/16/2023 10:38AM |
Do what you want with dead and down limbs and sticks: just take it with you when you leave. If I find it, regardless of what it is, it will be the first wood on the fire.
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07/19/2023 09:01PM |
KawnipiKid: "Barca: "Just curious on the LNT bit... (to be clear, carving up driftwood doesn't bother me in the slightest.... plastic latrines seem a bit more modern).
Regardless, at what point does it stop being something that offends and something that's "old and neat"? I've never seen a post about the bleeping pictographs that those stinkin first nation people left... yet some stones stacked up in a cairn is absolute heresy... When does that stack become a priceless artifact?
The dichotomy is a bit ironic to me.
Happy paddling.
P.S. The head of the 4 wood in shallow water on Lake Insula 25+ years ago was bizarre. "
Barca,
There's no irony here. What's old and neat or offends is pretty clear, whether a person agrees or not. The Wilderness act of 1964 set the stage and the BWCA Act of 1978 established the rules. In the BW, human traces from before 1978 are officially old and neat and to be left alone. This includes pictographs (as sacred as a church, in my opinion) and lots of other stuff from trash/midden piles of old cans to remnants of vehicles and cabins, to logging-era stuff. After 1978, anything that is left by humans is relevant to LNT. The campsite fire grates, plastic latrines and ancillary related stuff (maintained portage and latrine trails, forest service cutting of widow-makers, etc.) are not left "traces;" they are the public infrastructure improvements that define campsites and support public health and safety. They consolidate into specific locations the necessary traces of campfires and crapping we leave. I agree that not every trace left is an LNT violation. To me, a cairn left to mark a portage trail after a wildfire is very different than one of those new age balanced rock piles some people seem to think of as art or whatever. I don't touch the first. I always undo the second. Neither is a priceless artifact and neither ever will be. Pictographs were priceless historic artifacts hundreds of years before we came along. They always will be. "
+1
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07/16/2023 11:21AM |
stonewoodstream: "Sketching, yes. Solitude is excellent for artistic release. The same for photography and journaling/writing.
Do what you want with dead and down limbs and sticks: just take it with you when you leave. If I find it, regardless of what it is, it will be the first wood on the fire.
"
+1 Well said.
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07/20/2023 09:35AM |
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07/17/2023 10:51AM |
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07/20/2023 11:49AM |
Speckled: "
I've come across a few different little wood carving projects...they don't bother me. If I enjoyed it and it's not intrusive, then i'll leave it for the next visitor to enjoy. "
That’s a cute little carving!
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07/20/2023 12:16PM |
JohnGalt: "Speckled: "
I've come across a few different little wood carving projects...they don't bother me. If I enjoyed it and it's not intrusive, then i'll leave it for the next visitor to enjoy. "
That’s a cute little carving!"
Right and it's totally harmless, out of the way, not visually impacting anyone's experience...I don't get why folks would just throw it in the fire because it's against thier intrepretation of LNT.
I'm not even sure that carving up a dead piece of wood would even be against the rules. I see carving a small piece of dead wood about the same as cutting a dead branch off a downed tree in the woods. I walk back in the woods - I see evidence of the person prior. Saw marks vs knife marks on dead and downed wood. No difference.
I think like alot of things - you can remove common sense and just take something to the Nth degree. What's next, no ash left in the fireplace, no cut wood left for the next camper, clean and remove all soot from the fire grate. No fish kept and eaten.
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07/15/2023 08:22AM |
Found this carved sign at the Bonsai Site a few years ago.
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07/15/2023 09:37AM |
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07/20/2023 08:12AM |
bobbernumber3: "NEIowapaddler: "I hate to be "that guy", but it seems to me that carving stuff and then leaving it behind kinda violates the principle of LNT, doesn't it? Especially things like that sign. Or am I way off base in thinking that..."
_____________
Oh Christ!... go ahead and hijack my post with LNT BS. Yes, you are "THAT GUY"! I'm so glad I didn't sign the Oath of Dignity and Respect that I can rip into your comment....
Back to topic... what about the damn craft projects you guys make?? other than camp chairs, picnic tables and furniture.
_____________
Hey NEIP. Actually, I never thought about a left craft project being a LNT violation, but I always think about it when I see a rock cairn! Good point!"
Somehow I find this hilarious and genius… sort of covers it all…from anger/outrage to some form of agreement…LOL
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07/19/2023 02:39PM |
Barca: "Just curious on the LNT bit... (to be clear, carving up driftwood doesn't bother me in the slightest.... plastic latrines seem a bit more modern).
Regardless, at what point does it stop being something that offends and something that's "old and neat"? I've never seen a post about the bleeping pictographs that those stinkin first nation people left... yet some stones stacked up in a cairn is absolute heresy... When does that stack become a priceless artifact?
The dichotomy is a bit ironic to me.
Happy paddling.
P.S. The head of the 4 wood in shallow water on Lake Insula 25+ years ago was bizarre. "
Barca,
There's no irony here. What's old and neat or offends is pretty clear, whether a person agrees or not. The Wilderness act of 1964 set the stage and the BWCA Act of 1978 established the rules. In the BW, human traces from before 1978 are officially old and neat and to be left alone. This includes pictographs (as sacred as a church, in my opinion) and lots of other stuff from trash/midden piles of old cans to remnants of vehicles and cabins, to logging-era stuff. After 1978, anything that is left by humans is relevant to LNT. The campsite fire grates, plastic latrines and ancillary related stuff (maintained portage and latrine trails, forest service cutting of widow-makers, etc.) are not left "traces;" they are the public infrastructure improvements that define campsites and support public health and safety. They consolidate into specific locations the necessary traces of campfires and crapping we leave. I agree that not every trace left is an LNT violation. To me, a cairn left to mark a portage trail after a wildfire is very different than one of those new age balanced rock piles some people seem to think of as art or whatever. I don't touch the first. I always undo the second. Neither is a priceless artifact and neither ever will be. Pictographs were priceless historic artifacts hundreds of years before we came along. They always will be.
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07/17/2023 08:04AM |
stonewoodstream: "Sketching, yes. Solitude is excellent for artistic release. The same for photography and journaling/writing.
Do what you want with dead and down limbs and sticks: just take it with you when you leave. If I find it, regardless of what it is, it will be the first wood on the fire.
"
Or at the very least, huck it as far as you can back into the woods to decompose with the other branches and twigs so it's out of site for the next campers.
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07/17/2023 04:15PM |
I usually carve a walking stick every year I go. Brought last year’s with me again this year as I quite liked it.
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07/18/2023 10:18PM |
Regardless, at what point does it stop being something that offends and something that's "old and neat"? I've never seen a post about the bleeping pictographs that those stinkin first nation people left... yet some stones stacked up in a cairn is absolute heresy... When does that stack become a priceless artifact?
The dichotomy is a bit ironic to me.
Happy paddling.
P.S. The head of the 4 wood in shallow water on Lake Insula 25+ years ago was bizarre.
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07/18/2023 11:10AM |
JohnGalt: "Both happy accidents haha. Forgot these when moving to Vera - Dunno if the ‘burn it with fire’ approach will work, though I guess throwing them in the lake works in this case. I won’t feel bad for leaving behind a nice fire poker stick though I also won’t be upset to see it burned.
I usually carve a walking stick every year I go. Brought last year’s with me again this year as I quite liked it. "
That is an interesting fire grate. I've never seen one like that before.
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07/18/2023 11:57AM |
dschult2:
That is an interesting fire grate. I've never seen one like that before."
I’m at the CCO campground for a week/two awaiting some equipment to be delivered. Not a FS grate. Was wondering if that would be noticed - figured it would, perceptive crowd.
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07/18/2023 08:21PM |
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07/20/2023 08:20AM |
I've come across a few different little wood carving projects...they don't bother me. If I enjoyed it and it's not intrusive, then i'll leave it for the next visitor to enjoy.
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07/20/2023 03:46PM |
We have come on camp sites where people have made benches, shelves, tri pod chairs and even left up clothes lines "for the next guy".
The ethic of "leave no trace" is that you leave the site taking everything with you that you brought. . .or made. . .while there.
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07/20/2023 03:29PM |
I have come across plenty of "art" left behind at campsites. Some of it is good. Most of them are bad examples of what happens from extreme boredom. All of it is subjective.
What defines an unnecessary cairn? They are unnecessary on the Superior Hiking Trail, that trail is clearly seen, even if the signage wasn't there. Are some of the portage landings in the BWCA tough to find? Sure, but I have yet to find one because I saw a cairn first. More then likely it is a sawed off tree I see first for those hard to find portages. If a cairn is kicked over in the woods, who will know?
Too all those who are so quick to burn a piece of left behind art at a campsite, what if the art symbolized the religion you worship? I have found a lot of Christian Crosses at campsites throughout North America. Two sticks, lash them together, hang up in a tree or leave in a conspicuous place. That's leaving a trace. Not trying to start anything, just wondering about how strong certain principals are when faced with a different scenario.
There is no right or wrong answer to Camp Crafts left behind. It's up to me, the audience member, if I think it is good enough that it should be shared with the next audience member. If not, it ends with me.
Whenever I think of Camp Crafts left behind, I am reminded of the rock chairs on Ge-be-on-equat Lake. I don't know if they are still there, it's been a couple years, but I remember hearing about them and wanting to check them out. I ended up seeing them, enjoyed seeing them and the effort taken to get them in place, and thought someone else might enjoy seeing them, so I left them.
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07/20/2023 02:19PM |
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07/20/2023 03:29PM |
Speckled: "For the folks that are instantly burning any of the above small wood carvings as it's believed to be against the rules. Can you point to where in the rules it addresses this or is it simply your interpretation of the rules?
"
No one has stated it is against any regulation. And LNT is not a law in any books: it is a outdoorsman's ethic.
The basic fact is most people do not want to see sh*t left by someone else, be it empty beer cans, broken glass, used toilet paper, chewed sunflower shells, any other of a long laundry list of items, including wooden "crafts" left at a campsite.
If you create it, take it with you.
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07/20/2023 04:38PM |
Minnesotian: "Too all those who are so quick to burn a piece of left behind art at a campsite, what if the art symbolized the religion you worship? I have found a lot of Christian Crosses at campsites throughout North America. Two sticks, lash them together, hang up in a tree or leave in a conspicuous place. That's leaving a trace. Not trying to start anything, just wondering about how strong certain principals are when faced with a different scenario. "
So you would be okay with a stick Satanic Pentagram or and stick Islamic Crescent and Star, correct? Not trying to start anything, just wondering about how strong certain principals are when faced with a different scenario.
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07/20/2023 06:09PM |
Leave What You Find
Preserve the past: examine, photograph, but do not touch cultural or historic structures and artifacts.
Leave rocks, plants and other natural objects as you find them.
Avoid introducing or transporting non-native species.
Do not build structures, furniture, or dig trenches.
So I try to leave a site better then how I find it. Bushcraft/art is either burned or disassembled. If you like it so much to make it pack it out. I pack other folks trash out every year. Don't get me started on cutting on live trees because that's simply ignorant.
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07/22/2023 07:48AM |
ockycamper: "
That is also why we moved to remote lakes off Gunflint and go in the fall. Far fewer people and the "state park" crowd seems to like the Ely area better."
A ludicrous claim based on one experience. Seagull does not qualify as a "remote lake" by any serious paddler.
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07/22/2023 09:06AM |
Banksiana: "ockycamper: "
That is also why we moved to remote lakes off Gunflint and go in the fall. Far fewer people and the "state park" crowd seems to like the Ely area better."
A ludicrous claim based on one experience. Seagull does not qualify as a "remote lake" by any serious paddler."
I wouldn’t call Alpine or RR remote either. Ocky, stay off the main EPs in Ely and you can recieve the same experience as Gunflint.
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07/22/2023 02:57PM |
Cheers!
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07/22/2023 02:01PM |
bobbernumber3: "Barca: "bobbernumber3: "treehorn: "I think we all knew how this thread would go!!"
I must be dense for not seeing this when I posted."
While you are sadly correct, I do apologize for being one who pushed it this way.... I was honestly curious, not looking to start a debate. Should have known better. "
You never know where a converstion will go. Not your fault for asking your question.
I was just looking for ideas and thinking something would come up that I could use for winter camping. Last winter I whittled a shovel from cherry for cleaning out my stove. And LNT'ers... I did not pick up the shavings!!"
I have a Sierra Zip stove that eats shavings like that the same way I hammer a T-bone after an eight-day trip. I'll gladly use them!
I'll also clean up any cigarette butts, eggshells, empty spaghetti sauce cans, broken booze bottles, and any other human garbage that the “hate the concept of LNT” crowd leaves behind. Personally, I want my children and grandchildren to have the opportunity to see the BWCA without it having become someone else’s temporary “I really don’t care about it” playground and trash pit.
But that’s just me.
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07/22/2023 02:30PM |
I realize you are probably joking. . . .but are you really saying you don't feel an obligation to abide by LNT?