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HayRiverDrifter	10/06/2023 10:18PM   I love these threads. Ben what brand of underwear do you recommend so as to not have bundling issues? I have always questioned the term Leave No Trace (LNT) when it comes to the BWCA. It really should be "Leave Only an Acceptable Trace Within the Rules" Acceptable Traces: Portage trails, Established camp sites, Fire grates, Rocks stacked around the fire grate, Latrines', A square of logs around the Fire grate. This is the vibe of the BWCA and most areas reflect this and it is what we have all come to expect. Unacceptable or questionable Traces: Furniture other than a square of logs around the fire grate, Possibly excessive firewood, Leftovers from cutting wood left within the Established camp site boundaries, Any stacking of rocks other than around the Fire Grate with the acceptation of a really cool row of stone chairs I say, stay within the rules and give people a bit of grace for having a different style of enjoying the wilderness. Do not let what others do steal your peace.
scat	10/09/2023 04:11PM   From a guy that has his laundry done at a laundromat, I can attest that undies are overrated, tho socks are essential in Chicago when it gets chilly and for exercising. Run low on sox that's when it's time to drop off a bag full of stinky stuff. Love all the nice women at the laundromat, I never knew what I was doing and it's a pleasure to have a professional do it. A t-shirt is folded to the size of a postage stamp, I couldn't do that. And they are all the happiest nicest people to chat with. I always go away thinking I want a job at the laundromat if they are that happy in their job. Cheers, scat
shock	10/25/2023 02:03AM   with a fire grate-latrine-sitting logs around the fire grate , is there really LNT
Argo	10/25/2023 07:22AM   shock: "with a fire grate-latrine-sitting logs around the fire grate , is there really LNT " I'm sure there are some, perhaps many, who utilize sitting logs. I'm personally not a fan and find they just obstruct the area where camp chairs could reside. They are likely the earliest example of LNT non-compliance - admittedly for a good reason. But their time has passed in my opinion.
arctic	10/16/2023 03:02PM   Many an old picnic table in the BWCA has been consumed by my saw, axe, and fires...
MikeinMpls	10/05/2023 03:13PM   Freeleo1: "As long as it was from cleaning up downed trees and making the site more usable, I probably wouldn't be too upset as long as the wood is not in the way of getting around the site. As for underwear, choosing the right kind is an important part of trip planning. Do they chafe? How long do they take to dry when on or off. How many pairs are necessary. And of course the all important, not getting in a bunch. " I go commando. There was a whole thread about this several years ago. A legitimate, serious discussion on the topic of wearing underwear while tripping. The thread was great...until somebody got their undies bunched because others were talking about undies. Mike
bhouse46	10/04/2023 09:15PM   Like others my early training about leave no trace did not include leaving firewood for the next camper. Hal would get after me for stepping on anything growing if there was a rock available, that was leave no trace. I am over Hal in my head but do watch where I walk, and I really enjoy finding and processing good firewood. I always leave enough for one night's fire or more. After one trip I began to worry I was violating LNT with the supply I would leave and have cut back. I might have more fun next trip and the exploring shorelines locating wood back from the shoreline is a great pastime when on solos. I don't fish but love fresh fish so if other folks like Savage Voyager want to coordinate, I go solo but have had some great trips sharing a night or so with folks who fish. I contribute plenty of firewood and am not a bad cook.
Minnesotian	10/05/2023 08:39AM   Telco: " I also frequently winter camp in the BWCA and wouldn't want to see this much wood on a cold day because cutting wood is one of the ways to stay warm. " Huh. Well, gonna go ahead and disagree with you on that one. Yer right, gathering firewood, splitting it, and then burning it does warm ya up 3 times, but to find a big pile of ready to go firewood for winter camping? Yeah, I'll gratefully take that. As for finding any wood at a campsite, like YaMarVa said, "Luckily, you get to create, choose, and control the vibes you feel."
ForestDuff	10/03/2023 02:27PM   Nothing brings a smile to my face like arriving at a campsite with a pile of stacked split dry firewood. Especially in the fall and wintertime. Saves me time and energy. Nothing makes me shake my head more than arriving at a campsite with a bunch of rotted or green firewood strewn all about. One of my biggest camping pet peeves. And I usually drag it all back into the woods. Costs me time and energy.
scat	10/03/2023 08:33PM   Seamus might be short in stature but he has a keen eye for fashion. Never left a trace in his life he claims, tho I’ve never found the energy to discuss it with him. Not sure I trust him, tho he’s been a faithful doorman for twenty years or so. I’ve tried to connect, but he just stares ahead grits his teeth, clutches his shovel ever more tighter and says, why don’t you get a cute girlfriend loser, the last one kissed me on the cheek and wore a halter top. Wtf is a halter top…no clue
Deeznuts	10/03/2023 05:51PM   I think trash is more against LNT principles. I agree bushcraft furniture is a no go like stools isnt cool but I wouldn't complain about an ample supply of firewood. That being said, how do yall feel about utilizing a tree that's already been cut down to improve the campsite? On finger lake this past year there was a freshly(ish) cut birch that we used to replaced a sitting log by the fire grate. I know its against LNT but as least it didn't go to waste, right? I still question whether that was the right thing to do.
Speckled	10/04/2023 09:32AM   ForestDuff: "Nothing brings a smile to my face like arriving at a campsite with a pile of stacked split dry firewood. Especially in the fall and wintertime. Saves me time and energy. Nothing makes me shake my head more than arriving at a campsite with a bunch of rotted or green firewood strewn all about. One of my biggest camping pet peeves. And I usually drag it all back into the woods. Costs me time and energy. " This is exactly where I stand. If there's firewood, kindling and birch bark neatly stored - Perfect. I despise giant brush piles that seem to end up at so many campsites from campers dragging whole pine trees into camp and then de-limbing and processing. I too will take 30 minutes or so to drag it all back into the woods out of site. For me it's about aesthetics - a neat pile of split firewood is aesthetically pleasing to be a giant pile of brush isn't
canoemama3	10/04/2023 10:22AM   I wouldn’t be mad if there was a nice little pile of split wood leftover and left behind. But don’t get me started on foil and garbage left in the fire grate…
nctry	10/04/2023 08:28PM   canoemama3: "I wouldn’t be mad if there was a nice little pile of split wood leftover and left behind. But don’t get me started on foil and garbage left in the fire grate…" Exactly!
Ama62206	10/08/2023 03:50PM   I’m of the opinion that LNT is more about imported items, or over processed indigenous items left to damage the “wildernesses “ vibe of the place. A flattened spot on a log so you can set down a cup without it spilling, is a trace. The fireplace logs themselves are a trace. Both of which are both expected and desired by me, they say to me “welcome, stay here, you will like it” . A stack of processed firewood also says welcome for the night. Bushcraft anything, that says something else entirely, a bunch of pine boughs still green and soft laid out for “shelter” says sucker, a person who has bought into the mountain man myth of thriving in the wilderness with nothing but a bowie knife. In other words, to stay here it needs to be from here, and not processed into something foreign.
HighnDry	10/02/2023 11:42AM   nctry: "I’d quit wearing underwear if I got bunched that easy." Haha! On the other side of that, there's plenty of wood for a fire :)
Telco	10/02/2023 09:09AM   I was excited to see a 5-star rated site available on a recent solo trip. As a matter of fact, I had the whole lake to myself. I disembarked to check out the scene and while the physical site itself was indeed spectacular I had no interest in staying there. In between two trees about four feet apart was split wood stacked 3 feet high. There was a HUGE pile of kindling stacked neatly by the fire place and a second 3' tall stack of split wood next to it. Birch bark was layered neatly in a stack over a foot tall. They made a literal table out of sawed wood. Dudes, and I am pretty certain it was a large group of dudes, please chill out. I appreciate a small pile of dry kindling to get a fire started, which seems to be the consensus around here, and will certainly return the favor as it can literally be a life saver. I also frequently winter camp in the BWCA and wouldn't want to see this much wood on a cold day because cutting wood is one of the ways to stay warm. Not only did these wood gnomes leave a trace, they left bad energy at a great site. I encourage you to explore the lakes and woods if you have that much time on your hands. I moved on to a site that was only three-star reviewed, built a small fire, and it was perfect.
mirth	10/02/2023 11:18AM   nctry: "I’d quit wearing underwear if I got bunched that easy." LOL Ben.... I stayed at a well gnomed site on Iron for two nights last year. Between the constant wind and keeping the fire going from get-up to bedtime we depleted that supply pretty well.
Chieflonewatie	10/02/2023 11:20AM   Funny
Telco	10/02/2023 11:45AM   nctry: "I’d quit wearing underwear if I got bunched that easy." I just paddled to a different site and shared my thoughts on Listening Point. Do what you like with your undies, but I'm not going to feel bad about taking LNT in the BWCA seriously.
amhacker22	10/02/2023 03:19PM   nctry: "I’d quit wearing underwear if I got bunched that easy." So good.
plander	10/02/2023 02:28PM   In September 2020 we were on Knife Lake where we spent a couple nights at site 2187 on Robbins Island. Upon arrival to the site we found some hand crafted furniture - two stools. We used them alright, but the night before we left the two stools made for a great fire. I really don’t like coming across stuff like that - antithetical to LNT.
scottiebaldwin	10/02/2023 05:06PM   This banter is actually fun and fairly benign. As I see it there are two ways to go and I see merit to both. I'd say that if you are currently reading this post and are a regular to this site you already believe in the Leave No Trace principle. That being said, both of the phrases that were coined by Erik & Adam from the Tumblehome podcast; "wood gnoming" (leaving processed wood) and "wood goblin-ing" (taking gnomed wood from campsites as you pass them) fall in the not-so-serious-to-me LNT territory. I can choose to not use the wood that has been gnomed and to process my own (which I have done) or to use it and give a knowing nod to those mystical gnomes in the woods for doing the dirty work for me. Either way, it's pretty harmless. I'd say though that making and leaving camp furniture crosses a line. But it's a slippery slope, right? Do I use the arranged logs at a camp site? Yes, and so do you. So it's safest to not march down the portage of pontification too fervently. Let's all relax and enjoy the fact that we seem to find this special place truly special and leave it at that. And besides that, what have Gnomes ever done to you? Now Trolls on the other hand... Good riddance!! ;-)
timatkn	10/02/2023 05:58PM   plander: "In September 2020 we were on Knife Lake where we spent a couple nights at site 2187 on Robbins Island. Upon arrival to the site we found some hand crafted furniture - two stools. We used them alright, but the night before we left the two stools made for a great fire. I really don’t like coming across stuff like that - antithetical to LNT. " Too Funny, you got upset over some wood furniture breaking leave no trace rules then you had a fire outside of and on top of the fire grate... Your solution to the perceived LNT violation was to ACTUALLY break the rules of the BWCAW :) Neither your fire nor the furniture upset me…just pointing out that when ya live in a glass house might not want to throw stones… T
Freeleo1	10/05/2023 01:38PM   As long as it was from cleaning up downed trees and making the site more usable, I probably wouldn't be too upset as long as the wood is not in the way of getting around the site. As for underwear, choosing the right kind is an important part of trip planning. Do they chafe? How long do they take to dry when on or off. How many pairs are necessary. And of course the all important, not getting in a bunch.
Stumpy	11/03/2023 10:17AM   shock: "with a fire grate-latrine-sitting logs around the fire grate , is there really LNT " True
okinaw55	11/03/2023 09:02PM   Savage Voyageur: "I have to say if I pulled up to a campsite with a pile of wood I would be in 7th heaven. A pile of wood is very good energy. It gives me more energy to go catch fish, then fry them up over a camp fire made with the nice split wood. I also leave a pile of firewood at camps I go to. Our groups cook over the fire on most meals, that takes a lot of split wood. A pile of firewood might save a persons life someday in an emergency when they dump a canoe in cold water. A pile of wood is no different than a mountain cabin that climbers can stay at if they need shelter for the night or a storm. I learned to leave a pile of wood long ago when I was in Boy Scouts and believe they are still true today. " I'm with Savage on this one. Most importantly this: that firewood left behind could possibly save a life one day as was said. I think that trumps any possible argument about LNT.
nctry	10/02/2023 11:03AM   I’d quit wearing underwear if I got bunched that easy.
plander	10/02/2023 05:38PM   scottiebaldwin: "This banter is actually fun and fairly benign. As I see it there are two ways to go and I see merit to both. I'd say that if you are currently reading this post and are a regular to this site you already believe in the Leave No Trace principle. That being said, both of the phrases that were coined by Erik & Adam from the Tumblehome podcast; "wood gnoming" (leaving processed wood) and "wood goblin-ing" (taking gnomed wood from campsites as you pass them) fall in the not-so-serious-to-me LNT territory. I can choose to not use the wood that has been gnomed and to process my own (which I have done) or to use it and give a knowing nod to those mystical gnomes in the woods for doing the dirty work for me. Either way, it's pretty harmless. I'd say though that making and leaving camp furniture crosses a line. But it's a slippery slope, right? Do I use the arranged logs at a camp site? Yes, and so do you. So it's safest to not march down the portage of pontification too fervently. Let's all relax and enjoy the fact that we seem to find this special place truly special and leave it at that. And besides that, what have Gnomes ever done to you? Now Trolls on the other hand... Good riddance!! ;-) " Agree with all of this. My post was just to show the extent that some industrious folks will take it. I do use the furniture I come across (see pic below). And per those stools, one of my buddies was so compelled by their presence to fabricate a rake to clean house! I burn the furniture if I so choose. Leaving made made carved artifact crosses the line, but as said above it is a slippery slope. I have certainly notch a log or two to make it better to sit on. I’d say the biggest issues per LNT is the garbage left behind and the cutting down of live trees. Thus, to focus on the gray areas and not the black and white (egregious) when black and white occurs does seem a bit like wasted energy - like me writing this post. Per the original post, I’m happy to arrive at a site and find processed wood. It’s the first wood burned that’s for sure. More often than not, when we come to a site I find much in disarray (half burned logs, food, garbage, etc) that we have to get in order. I prefer the former. Per the latter, I usually wonder aloud “what the hell were these people doing here to leave the place in such a state”. As a result, my trips nowadays are more Quetico based where (at least in my experience) the sites are in much better shape.
plander	10/02/2023 06:07PM   timatkn: "plander: "In September 2020 we were on Knife Lake where we spent a couple nights at site 2187 on Robbins Island. Upon arrival to the site we found some hand crafted furniture - two stools. We used them alright, but the night before we left the two stools made for a great fire. I really don’t like coming across stuff like that - antithetical to LNT. " Too Funny, you got upset over some wood furniture breaking leave no trace rules then you had a fire outside of and on top of the fire grate... Your solution to the perceived LNT violation was to ACTUALLY break the rules of the BWCAW :) Neither your fire nor the furniture upset me…just pointing out that when ya live in a glass house might not want to throw stones… T" Nah, it didn’t upset me either. We had a laugh about it that’s for sure. Then we wondered about the hand tool wood working skills. The build of the stools were impressive. Other than that the site was in good shape, if I recall correctly. And we did find utility in those stools. It’s all good. But I had to burn them, and on top of the grate no less. I knew someone would point out that transgression… hahaha. Thanks for not busting my balls. Edit: Added a couple photos below. Utility of benches (pizza cutting) and my buddy making a broom. Those stools got him nervous about keeping the site clean.
KawnipiKid	10/02/2023 09:02PM   I see both sides on this but I'm with Telco. When the physical presence of previous users is so prominent in a site, even with useful stuff, it takes away from the experience. Just as one person's trash is another's treasure, some folk's treasure feels like trash to others.
sns	10/02/2023 09:46PM   nctry: "I’d quit wearing underwear if I got bunched that easy." I just got back from the Quetico and what's underwear?
nctry	10/02/2023 10:11PM   Telco: "nctry: "I’d quit wearing underwear if I got bunched that easy." I just paddled to a different site and shared my thoughts on Listening Point. Do what you like with your undies, but I'm not going to feel bad about taking LNT in the BWCA seriously." Sorry to sound disrespectful. Just saying, think about the source of that wood’s possiblies. Years ago had a couple rangers stop by and clarify the wood I was enjoying was left by them cleaning up the place after a storm. Maybe in your sites case they were preparing for a longer stay and had to leave unexpectedly for an emergency or otherwise. Your bad energy could be you quick to judge without really knowing what the situation is. That’s all I was getting at… I don’t think any rules were broken as long as it was dead and down originally. I have a terrible sense of humor… I can’t help that… Sns, underwear, a garment known to carry a racing stripe to prevent leaving a trace on your britches.
Sparkeh	10/03/2023 05:32AM   This was most likely from rangers cleaning up blow downs and such. I'd take that site any day. Less work for me.
YaMarVa	10/03/2023 06:47AM   I get very happy when I see a wood gnome’s work upon arriving at a campsite. Luckily, you get to create, choose, and control the vibes you feel.
Telco	10/03/2023 07:13AM   nctry: "Sorry to sound disrespectful. Just saying, think about the source of that wood’s possiblies. Years ago had a couple rangers stop by and clarify the wood I was enjoying was left by them cleaning up the place after a storm. Maybe in your sites case they were preparing for a longer stay and had to leave unexpectedly for an emergency or otherwise. Your bad energy could be you quick to judge without really knowing what the situation is. That’s all I was getting at… I don’t think any rules were broken as long as it was dead and down originally. I have a terrible sense of humor… I can’t help that… Sns, underwear, a garment known to carry a racing stripe to prevent leaving a trace on your britches." Not a problem. It wouldn't be funny if there wasn't an element of truth to it. With a little more reflection, a site that's ideally suited for large groups is going to get at least 5x the traffic or more in a season then a smaller site with one ok pad, so I should probably adjust my expectations accordingly and keep learning what I like a little more with each trip. I haven't been on a trip with a large group before, but I can see four canoes pulling up and seeing half a chord of split wood and thinking that'll be good for a few days. I do think the bushcraft furniture is bad etiquette though. And I would be very surprised if that table was the work of a ranger clearing up after a blowdown.
bobbernumber3	10/03/2023 07:47AM   nctry: "I’d quit wearing underwear if I got bunched that easy." Sounds like a quote you've been saving to use at the right opportunity?
HighnDry	10/03/2023 09:17AM   I agree about the bushcraft furniture. That's something that can be dismantled and distributed discreetly in the woods if it's not burnt properly.
Savage Voyageur	10/03/2023 09:44AM   I have to say if I pulled up to a campsite with a pile of wood I would be in 7th heaven. A pile of wood is very good energy. It gives me more energy to go catch fish, then fry them up over a camp fire made with the nice split wood. I also leave a pile of firewood at camps I go to. Our groups cook over the fire on most meals, that takes a lot of split wood. A pile of firewood might save a persons life someday in an emergency when they dump a canoe in cold water. A pile of wood is no different than a mountain cabin that climbers can stay at if they need shelter for the night or a storm. I learned to leave a pile of wood long ago when I was in Boy Scouts and believe they are still true today.
SaganagaJoe	10/03/2023 12:39PM   I believe in LNT. If this had been me and my group (which this summer would look a lot like the group Telco describes in his last post), we would have basically said - "SWEET! Did we luck out or what!" I'd never cut wood to that magnitude myself, but I'd consider it a serendipity to pull up to a site where someone had done that. If my LNT side was irked, I'd just burn through half or 3/4 of it and not replenish it. Problem solved.
missmolly	10/03/2023 10:51AM   Telco: "nctry: "Sorry to sound disrespectful. Just saying, think about the source of that wood’s possiblies. Years ago had a couple rangers stop by and clarify the wood I was enjoying was left by them cleaning up the place after a storm. Maybe in your sites case they were preparing for a longer stay and had to leave unexpectedly for an emergency or otherwise. Your bad energy could be you quick to judge without really knowing what the situation is. That’s all I was getting at… I don’t think any rules were broken as long as it was dead and down originally. I have a terrible sense of humor… I can’t help that… Sns, underwear, a garment known to carry a racing stripe to prevent leaving a trace on your britches." Not a problem. It wouldn't be funny if there wasn't an element of truth to it. With a little more reflection, a site that's ideally suited for large groups is going to get at least 5x the traffic or more in a season then a smaller site with one ok pad, so I should probably adjust my expectations accordingly and keep learning what I like a little more with each trip. I haven't been on a trip with a large group before, but I can see four canoes pulling up and seeing half a chord of split wood and thinking that'll be good for a few days. I do think the bushcraft furniture is bad etiquette though. And I would be very surprised if that table was the work of a ranger clearing up after a blowdown." Whoa. You rarely see or hear ^this^ magnitude of courage, i.e. publicly shifting your position. Too many people view "I stand by my position." as a certain sign of strength. Additionally, you did this after people laughed at you, which would calcify most people's positions. My takeaway from this thread is that Telco is someone special.
timatkn	10/03/2023 11:38AM   Plander, thanks for taking my comment as trying to be funny...
bottomtothetap	10/03/2023 12:36PM   This is always an interesting debate. I've seen posts from participants in this forum who emphatically preach "leave no trace" and yet, in another post, will almost indicate that one is rude for not paying it forward with a pile of firewood left for the site's next occupants. While I do get bothered by sloppy campers who leave food garbage, fish remains (or human poop!!) near the fire grate or misuse the latrine as a dumpster, I'm pretty casual about finding most other signs that previous campers were at a site before me. If their "trace" is natural materials such as wood, logs or rocks that have been moved or arranged somehow, I'm not really bothered. The Forest Service has purposely left a trace at every designated campsite and we all accept that just fine. It is what it is. If there's a pile of wood for us at a campsite, that's cool and I will use it without judgement of how big or little the pile is and if there isn't one at all I don't regard the previous campers as thoughtless. Similarly, If I have extra wood left when we are ready to leave, I'm happy to pile it near the fire grate for the next camper but I'm not worried about making sure to cut some for them. I will make every effort to leave a clean campsite with respect to the rules of the BWCA and fellow canoeists but you won't see me brushing away my footprints as I leave the site.
scat	10/03/2023 01:36PM   I remember my first solo trip I landed on a five star site in Tiger Bay on LLC and I almost felt guilty to have it all to myself. Might be some of that to it, was cool you moved to another site you felt more connected with. Speaking of gnomes, have you ever seen a female garden gnome. I think it's a conspiracy... Just sayin
LindenTree	10/05/2023 03:05PM   sns: "nctry: "I’d quit wearing underwear if I got bunched that easy." I just got back from the Quetico and what's underwear?" yep, commando for the wifey and I when we're in the BW.
LesliesDad	10/10/2023 11:37AM   I'm a big believer in the LNT philosophy. That's why I buy a weeks worth of fire wood at Zup's before each trip. It's really not that big a hassle to haul it in, as the load keeps getting smaller at each subsequent camp site. The really hard part is hauling out all those cast iron fire grates.
nctry	10/10/2023 09:02AM   HayRiverDrifter: "I love these threads. Ben what brand of underwear do you recommend so as to not have bundling issues? I have always questioned the term Leave No Trace (LNT) when it comes to the BWCA. It really should be "Leave Only an Acceptable Trace Within the Rules" Acceptable Traces: Portage trails, Established camp sites, Fire grates, Rocks stacked around the fire grate, Latrines', A square of logs around the Fire grate. This is the vibe of the BWCA and most areas reflect this and it is what we have all come to expect. Unacceptable or questionable Traces: Furniture other than a square of logs around the fire grate, Possibly excessive firewood, Leftovers from cutting wood left within the Established camp site boundaries, Any stacking of rocks other than around the Fire Grate with the acceptation of a really cool row of stone chairs I say, stay within the rules and give people a bit of grace for having a different style of enjoying the wilderness. Do not let what others do steal your peace." Haha, I’m not one to divulge in underwear. I’m sure anything will bunch if you let something as this give you bad vibes. Like I say, who knows the actual story behind the pile. They whether forest service or otherwise may have cleaned up a downed tree in the site… I think we can move on here… but although I don’t disagree that some using of downed dead wood to make a stool or something for your pleasure. It should be taken apart and disposed of properly before you leave. I’m not a big fire guy… my job was putting them out! Haha. But an occasional fire I enjoy. Especially with a friendly bunch… and I don’t mean that as a condition of underwear. Haha.
mgraber	10/16/2023 01:26PM   LesliesDad: "I'm a big believer in the LNT philosophy. That's why I buy a weeks worth of fire wood at Zup's before each trip. It's really not that big a hassle to haul it in, as the load keeps getting smaller at each subsequent camp site. The really hard part is hauling out all those cast iron fire grates." Lol!
mgraber	10/16/2023 01:26PM