Click to View the Full Thread

Boundary Waters Quetico Forum :: Listening Point - General Discussion :: O/T Twins will be pecked by Blue Jays like the dog meat they are.
 
Author Message Text
YaMarVa
10/05/2023 01:20PM
 
MidwestMan: "I love the discussion...But how could you possibly pass on Freddie Freeman over Vlad with the season that Freddie just had (not to mention Freddie's entire career)?...
"



I would build a team for the future with Vlad at 1B, but winning today I'd take Freeman. He is one of my favorite players the last few years and you're right, fine wine for sure. I'd also argue, Mookie had a better season than Freeman, and neither will be the MVP. Nuts.


Tom Brady and LeBron are GOATs, I don't think Vlad Jr. or Bo will be GOATs.



 
Boppasteveg
10/05/2023 11:53AM
 
Instigator!


And now...the Astros. We won 4-6 during the regular season and two of those were in Houston. The Blue Jays series was just a little warm-up for us.

 
MidwestMan
10/05/2023 12:39PM
 
I love the discussion. Age definitely is a factor but guys like Tom Brady and LeBron James would beg-to-differ. They are exceptions, obviously. But how could you possibly pass on Freddie Freeman over Vlad with the season that Freddie just had (not to mention Freddie's entire career)? He would have been league MVP in most years that aren't 2023. He's like fine wine. Or Matt Olson and Pete Alonso with their combined 100 home runs versus Vlad's 26? On the flip side, though, your prediction may end up becoming true. Vlad and Bo could definitely become the top dawgs at their respective positions. It will be fun to keep an eye on those guys going forward. Thanks for the sports food-for-thought!






 
YaMarVa
10/06/2023 06:35AM
 
MidwestMan: "Ya I definitely wasn't comparing TB or LBJ to Bo or Vlad lol. Not saying that that's what you interpreted it as. Man, some of those NL guys had crazy seasons this year. Between Acuna, Mookie, Freeman and Olson. Holy Smokes! "


Its crazy to think of Atlanta’s lineup if Freeman re-signed with them. Wild. I guess they probably wouldn’t have Olson, but remembering Freeman and Swanson were part of their incredible lineup just two years ago is an amazing output of talent. I’ll be curious to see if Harris develops into a top player in the next few years. He’s showing signs of greatness at a very young age. Throw is their star pitchers, holy smokes.



 
MidwestMan
10/05/2023 03:44PM
 
Ya I definitely wasn't comparing TB or LBJ to Bo or Vlad lol. Not saying that that's what you interpreted it as. Man, some of those NL guys had crazy seasons this year. Between Acuna, Mookie, Freeman and Olson. Holy Smokes!
 
YaMarVa
10/06/2023 12:16PM
 
@Argo -- That's quite the rap sheet you've got on Vlad Jr. The only disagreement I'll give you is your first point; his stats have declined the last two seasons, not three. Three seasons ago he put up MVP numbers. And his 2022 season was solid too. His 2023 season, he had the 6th most FTSP for a first baseman. I am not worried he is in decline, his 2021 season was phenomenal and difficult for any player to repeat.


As for the Blue Jay's management, I'd say Alex Manoah has been another black mark on them.


David Ortiz is a great example of raw talent that when put in the hands of good management (Red Sox's in 2003) can really develop. Ortiz made the claim he'd never had been a HOFer if he stayed in Minnesota. Maybe this would be the same case for Vlad Jr.



 
HighnDry
10/03/2023 02:52PM
 
That's got to be worth a six-pack of Puppers.


...if you can find them in a local LCBO...
 
Frenchy19
10/03/2023 02:55PM
 
HighnDry: "That's got to be worth a six-pack of Puppers.



...if you can find them in a local LCBO..."



Letterkenny was a fun show!
 
tumblehome
10/04/2023 07:09AM
 
And….. Argo will have to eat crow for lunch.


Tom
 
Stumpy
10/03/2023 06:47PM
 
I think not.
 
YaMarVa
10/04/2023 06:43AM
 
The Blue Jays have a very good lineup that underperformed in a very good division this year. Vlad and Bo are players to build a team around.



 
Savage Voyageur
10/04/2023 07:12PM
 
Anybody know who won the game today?

 
Argo
10/04/2023 10:41AM
 
tumblehome: "And….. Argo will have to eat crow for lunch.



Tom"



Blue Jays are just sand-bagging. You'll see. Guaranteed win today for the bluebirds, It's in the bag. They could dress their bench players.


By the way, beautiful looking stadium in Minneapolis. I don't miss the green garbage-bag outfield in the Metrodome.
 
Frenchy19
10/11/2023 09:29AM
 
Their performance on Tuesday (10/10) was an affront to dog meat on all levels.



 
Argo
10/02/2023 04:52PM
 
As likely the only Jays fan on this board I just had to put that out there :)
 
lundojam
10/02/2023 08:30PM
 
aaaaaaarrrrrggggggh.
That's what they said in '91.
 
Savage Voyageur
10/04/2023 11:30AM
 
Argo: "tumblehome: "And….. Argo will have to eat crow for lunch.




Tom"




Blue Jays are just sand-bagging. You'll see. Guaranteed win today for the bluebirds, It's in the bag. They could dress their bench players.



By the way, beautiful looking stadium in Minneapolis. I don't miss the green garbage-bag outfield in the Metrodome."




Two things wrong with this statement, 1 it’s called the hefty bag, and 2 its called the Metrodump. We are so fortunate to have one of the best hockey, football and baseball facilities in the nation. Go Twins.
 
HighnDry
10/04/2023 07:38PM
 
2 zip.
 
Argo
10/04/2023 06:34PM
 
Well, I've always said life is full of contradictions.


Congratulations Twins and Twins fans. Enjoy the ride!



 
okinaw55
10/04/2023 06:40PM
 
Sorry bro.
 
MidwestMan
10/04/2023 06:59PM
 
YaMarVa: "The Blue Jays have a very good lineup that underperformed in a very good division this year. Vlad and Bo are players to build a team around.



"



Eh. Solid players. Wouldn’t build a team around either of those guys.
 
okinaw55
10/04/2023 07:16PM
 
Savage Voyageur: "Anybody know who won the game today?
"

LOL smooth.
 
YaMarVa
10/05/2023 09:53AM
 
Freddy: "YaMarVa: "MidwestMan: "YaMarVa: "The Blue Jays have a very good lineup that underperformed in a very good division this year. Vlad and Bo are players to build a team around.






"






Eh. Solid players. Wouldn’t build a team around either of those guys."





I’ll bump this thread in 5 years and we’ll find out. Both are on almost every list of best players under 25. Bleacher Report’s list also includes Kirk. Yardbarker’s 2023 list has them both in the top 5. Bo has already led the league in hits twice and Vlad has led the league in both HR and OBP. Baseball fans know ballplayers generally are at their best around 28-32yo. These guys are both already great players.



To continue the baseball conversation, who is your current ss/1b you’d build a team around? There are a lot of good young players in this era. "




If they are that good they will probably be wearing pinstripes in New York in 5 years!"



As a Yankees fan I sure hope you're right.
 
YaMarVa
10/05/2023 09:54AM
 
MidwestMan - You list a lot of great players (some will be HOFers), but as you state most of them are much older and farther along in their careers and development. I would not build a team around any of those players (maybe Seager or Witt) but I'd sign them to help a team win today.


Most all of the players you list were not as developed or productive at age 25 as both Vlad and Bo have been.


Thanks for the back and forth, baseball is a hell of a drug.






 
JimmyJustice
10/05/2023 12:13PM
 
Here we go Brewers, here we go!....oops, never mind. :) :)
 
Freddy
10/05/2023 07:47AM
 
YaMarVa: "MidwestMan: "YaMarVa: "The Blue Jays have a very good lineup that underperformed in a very good division this year. Vlad and Bo are players to build a team around.





"





Eh. Solid players. Wouldn’t build a team around either of those guys."




I’ll bump this thread in 5 years and we’ll find out. Both are on almost every list of best players under 25. Bleacher Report’s list also includes Kirk. Yardbarker’s 2023 list has them both in the top 5. Bo has already led the league in hits twice and Vlad has led the league in both HR and OBP. Baseball fans know ballplayers generally are at their best around 28-32yo. These guys are both already great players.


To continue the baseball conversation, who is your current ss/1b you’d build a team around? There are a lot of good young players in this era. "



If they are that good they will probably be wearing pinstripes in New York in 5 years!
 
YaMarVa
10/05/2023 06:33AM
 
MidwestMan: "YaMarVa: "The Blue Jays have a very good lineup that underperformed in a very good division this year. Vlad and Bo are players to build a team around.




"




Eh. Solid players. Wouldn’t build a team around either of those guys."



I’ll bump this thread in 5 years and we’ll find out. Both are on almost every list of best players under 25. Bleacher Report’s list also includes Kirk. Yardbarker’s 2023 list has them both in the top 5. Bo has already led the league in hits twice and Vlad has led the league in both HR and OBP. Baseball fans know ballplayers generally are at their best around 28-32yo. These guys are both already great players.

To continue the baseball conversation, who is your current ss/1b you’d build a team around? There are a lot of good young players in this era.
 
MidwestMan
10/05/2023 08:12AM
 
YaMarVa: "MidwestMan: "YaMarVa: "The Blue Jays have a very good lineup that underperformed in a very good division this year. Vlad and Bo are players to build a team around.





"





Eh. Solid players. Wouldn’t build a team around either of those guys."




I’ll bump this thread in 5 years and we’ll find out. Both are on almost every list of best players under 25. Bleacher Report’s list also includes Kirk. Yardbarker’s 2023 list has them both in the top 5. Bo has already led the league in hits twice and Vlad has led the league in both HR and OBP. Baseball fans know ballplayers generally are at their best around 28-32yo. These guys are both already great players.


To continue the baseball conversation, who is your current ss/1b you’d build a team around? There are a lot of good young players in this era. "



Definitely a ton of talent in this generation. I know the majority of these guys play in the NL and some are up there in age, but I'd take Freddie Freeman, Matt Olson, Christian Walker, Pete Alonso, Paul Goldschmidt, and Nathaniel Lowe at First Base over Vlad Jr. And that's no disrespect to Vlad - as you mentioned, he's young (much younger than a few of the players I mentioned) and he's already proven that he can put together a stellar season. At Shortstop, I'd take Trea Turner, Corey Seager, Bobby Witt Jr., Elly De La Cruz, Francisco Lindor, and Xander Bogaerts over Bo Bichette. Same situation here, many of these guys are older than Bichette. Bichette is certainly a solid player and may become elite within a couple seasons. But if I'm trying to win a World Series in 2024, this is who I'd have at First Base and Shortstop over Vlad and Bo, respectively. I also realize your argument was regarding 'building a team' - which generally means long-term. So a few of my guys, especially at Shortstop, would be erased from this list if we're talking 3-5+ years.
 
Argo
10/06/2023 09:52AM
 
Here's what you get with Guerrero:


A ball player with declining offensive numbers for the past three years.


A guy who repeatedly celebrates a home runs by jogging the base path and then gets thrown out at second or first when the ball drops in the park.


At least twice in the past two years has had a ball thrown through the webbing of his stupid mitt on routine play to first.


Throws peanuts at players and management as they are being interviewed on live TV during a game.


After every win (that's every win...not occasionally, not after a big crucial come-from-behind win...every win) dumps the ice bucket the player of the game as he's being interviewed on the field on live tv.


Plays the Chester and Spike game chatting with with every opposing batter who makes it safely to first in English or Spanish but...


Having a privileged upbringing growing up in Canadian and US baseball markets with his dad and having lived in Toronto for at least the past five years still refuses to give an interview in English - always through a Spanish interpreter. We are used to seeing Russian hockey players who can't speak a word of English when they arrive but giving interviews in English after a year in N America.


Could have and should have lost 20 lbs of fat if he was a serious pro athlete. Even golfers and race car drivers hit the gym these days.


Serious management would have whipped this kid into shape by now. But you saw how serious Jays management was when the pulled Berrios in the fourth.


The Twins just needed to show up, play like pros and let the Jays beat themselves with foolish base running, terrible bench decisions and the chronic lack of hitting with runners in scoring position.


Their post mortem for 2023 is a replica of their 2022 season and playoffs. This team is not growing. Their "franchise" player's maturity level was arrested in middle school and no-one from bench management to upper management has done anything to improve it. The owners fired Alex Anthopoulos in 2015. He is currently the Braves GM. A fish stinks at the head.


The only redeeming aspect of the Jays was great pitching.


I wish the Twins all the best. Beating the Jays was a monkey off their back and that will definitely assist them psychologically. But their real competition is just starting now.
 
Argo
10/06/2023 01:54PM
 
YaMarVa: "@Argo -- That's quite the rap sheet you've got on Vlad Jr. The only disagreement I'll give you is your first point; his stats have declined the last two seasons, not three. Three seasons ago he put up MVP numbers. And his 2022 season was solid too. His 2023 season, he had the 6th most FTSP for a first baseman. I am not worried he is in decline, his 2021 season was phenomenal and difficult for any player to repeat.



As for the Blue Jay's management, I'd say Alex Manoah has been another black mark on them.



David Ortiz is a great example of raw talent that when put in the hands of good management (Red Sox's in 2003) can really develop. Ortiz made the claim he'd never had been a HOFer if he stayed in Minnesota. Maybe this would be the same case for Vlad Jr.



"



A friend and I were recently chatting about that. If they dealt him to a team with grown-ups, he could develop into a serious pro and do a lot of damage. I get that. What worries me is that he has shown no sign of professional development and his performance is declining. There seems to be no recognition on his part that he needs to change his approach and clearly no-one in management seems to be prepared to grab him by the proverbial lapels. The great Jay teams of the late 80s had a lot of young prima donnas, no adults and under-achieved. Then they brought in some vets like Carter, Winfield and Molitor. And eventually promoted Cito Gaston to Manager. The result was back to back champs.


I wouldn't be surprised if Mattingly is promoted next year. A lot of us thought that was the game plan if/when things went south this year. Schneider pulling Berrios in the fourth of game two is likely going to cost him his job. It's looking like that decision came from upstairs but they will make him wear it. Schneider is part manager and part errand boy. Buck Showalter or Terry Francona would not put up with that nonsense. The Canadian broadcast of the game featured Buck Martinez and Dan Shulman. They held back very little when they saw Berrios getting the yank. "Screw the analytics...the guy is on fire...keep him in the game." to paraphrase. I'm wondering what the US broadcasters said at the time? I personally believe the Twins thought they just won the lottery when Barrios was relieved.


Manoah is almost the same thing as Vlad. From all-star to out of the league in less than a season. Sad. If I was to speculate I think he got drunk on his success like a new kid is prone to do. Perhaps he partied too hard in the off season and thought all he needed to do was just show up in 2023. He's carrying too much emotional and physical baggage now. Someone at the pro level knows how to mentor and rehabilitate a kid like this but the Jays organization doesn't look capable.
 
okinaw55
10/02/2023 09:08PM
 
We'll see. Good pitching and the runs are coming up.
 
SaganagaJoe
10/03/2023 12:43PM
 
Geez. Fighting words!
 
MikeinMpls
10/03/2023 12:55PM
 
It's a Minnesota sports team. Expect immediate disappointment.


Mike
 
scat
10/03/2023 01:34PM
 
Go Bears!
 
YaMarVa
10/06/2023 03:31PM
 
Thinking what the 2023 Jays talent would look like with Alex Anthopoulos at the helm is scary.
 
Mocha
10/06/2023 06:48PM
 
The twins have a very good team this season. Many players who can hit, run, catch.... they have been doing just fine without Buxton so they can trade him.


I like the rotation of players every couple games. I think it keeps the opponents guessing. I don't remember them using 4-6 pitchers in a game, although it seems to be working out.


Do most teams have players that only pitch one inning?
Do we need a pitcher to throw over 100mph and then can only play one inning?


I have enjoyed the games this summer and hope they continue to play the game and insert more child-like enthusiasm. Play for the love of the game.
 
nctry
10/10/2023 08:58AM
 
Mocha: "The twins have a very good team this season. Many players who can hit, run, catch.... they have been doing just fine without Buxton so they can trade him.



I like the rotation of players every couple games. I think it keeps the opponents guessing. I don't remember them using 4-6 pitchers in a game, although it seems to be working out.



Do most teams have players that only pitch one inning?
Do we need a pitcher to throw over 100mph and then can only play one inning?



I have enjoyed the games this summer and hope they continue to play the game and insert more child-like enthusiasm. Play for the love of the game."





Great post Mocha…