Boundary Waters Quetico Forum :: Listening Point - General Discussion :: Do you still use maps in the BWCA?
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TrailZen |
TZ |
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LindenTree |
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Banksiana |
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MikeinMpls |
Dreamer: "Only paper. It's part of the nastalgia. I have resorted to Google maps twice to find my exact location. I felt like a failure! I always bring a compass. I have never used a compass." Love this. Same for me. Completely agree Mike |
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Stumpy |
gravelroad: "Stumpy: "Is there something other than a paper map ?" Nice ! |
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papalambeau |
MikeinMpls: "Dreamer: "Only paper. It's part of the nastalgia. I have resorted to Google maps twice to find my exact location. I felt like a failure! I always bring a compass. I have never used a compass." Same for our crew. Paper maps in all three canoes - 3 different brands. |
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Jefflynn06 |
To me, there is a skill (and pleasure) in being able to look at a map to define geographical structures/information and then identify it on land or water. Even when maps have the portage or campsite slightly off, it comes down to being able to coordinate map information with what nature is showing us. Use clock coordinating language to communicate (small island at two o'clock, portage should be at about ten o'clock as we pass the point, etc.) while on the water. |
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bfurlow |
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RodPortage |
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HowardSprague |
I’ve never needed to keep my maps charged. |
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plmn |
But I will say that as I get older and more reliant on GPS for most travels, I find maps less intuitive than I used to. Last year I also used my Garmin watch just to look at my track and stats after I got home. |
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WapsiBanks00 |
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TylerMN |
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jcavenagh |
ockycamper: "...I am amazed that the majority on this thread are still using just paper maps. . . .and yet used GPS vs paper map to drive to the BWCA. Just a thought!" I am map/compass guy. Even in the car I don't have gps. Once I stopped near Cleveland at my sister's place en route to D.C. Before we left I took out my atlas and checked my route. My sis laughed out loud! She said "You use paper maps?!?" I told her I never had a paper map die on me. |
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boonie |
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Bromel |
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MinnesotaJenny |
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MinnesotaJenny |
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schweady |
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RRHD |
The compass generally stays in the first aid kit. I almost never need it. |
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MississippiDan |
I use a GPS from the stern with a custom made map. On a lake I set the navigation to the next portage. I can stay on course or paddle around just to see different scenery then easily get back on course. Saved time finding the portage on one very foggy morning. I carry extra lithium batter and a small power bank for backup power. |
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TrailZen |
My wife usually carries an older map that is marked up with campsites, portage comments, etc. Her compass is also in her map case. TZ |
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MidwestMan |
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TuscaroraBorealis |
cowdoc: "Maps float when you drop them overboard and don't break when you drop them on a rock. Maybe I just need to stop being clumsy ;)" Not trying to be argumentative or speak against paper maps but, I actually had my map sink once on Wagosh Lake. The wind took it just after I had opened it up & set it down. It certainly didn't sink like a stone but by the time we'd paddled over it was too far underwater to retrieve. Still, I always have a paper map & backup along. |
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Frenchy19 |
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andym |
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DougG3 |
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andym |
We also take a gps because my wife likes navigation devices. But if you are going to rely solely on electronics, add floatation to them. We had a gps go overboard and it sank fast. |
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ISRO |
With that being said I download a GPX route from PP to Garmin connect and literally can look at my watch in map mode to view where I am via the PP track. Worked excellent on the last 5 day trip I just got back from, my partner was just shaking his head as it was spot on for every track/portage/campsite. |
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scottiebaldwin |
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ducks |
I only use my phone for the camera. |
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tumblehome |
I have a compass and have used it quite a bit actually. I was turned around on a large Quetico lake in heavy overcast. My gut told me to go one way and I got turned around. My compass told me otherwise. I used the compass to get back on track. I also have done a fair amount of bushwhacking between lakes and a compass is compulsory for travel in the woods without a portage trail. I think many people don't use a compass because they are unfamiliar with using them. A good place to start is to go to an open field, football, baseball, whatever. Walk in a big square using paces and your compass turning 90' each time. See how close you can return to your starting point. Tom |
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gravelroad |
Stumpy: "Is there something other than a paper map ?" I couldn’t resist. ;-) True North Map Co. cloth maps |
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chessie |
TrailZen: "Map & compass, bow & stern. Ditto that! |
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IndyCanoe |
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scat |
Stupid question perhaps, what happens when you fumble and drop your phone in the lake or a puddle in the bottom of your boat, aren't you dead in the water so to speak. I wouldn't take the chance of that, and I like having a map I can make notes on, good fishing spot, campsite... I embrace technology as much as I can hack, the cellphones are amazing and all, but something that I like to get away from on a canoe trip, not have it pinned to my hip all the time like is necessary in regular life. |
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cmanimal |
I've used the map with a compass a few times, mostly on large lakes to plot a course to avoid paddling in the ditch to cross the lake. |
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ScottL |
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deepwater |
This post is meant to stir up some friendly conversation around navigation in the BWCA. Do you always bring a map and a compass into the BWCA and follow it? Do you bring anything else for navigation? I've been on 25+ trips with about half being solo. I stopped taking a map about 5 years ago and solely rely on mapping software on my cell phone. You can see your precise location and all of the portages/campsites. I made the switch when I realized that I spend 5+ days in the mountains elk hunting with only my cell phone maps. How do navigate and why? |
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Traveler |
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OldGuide2 |
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deerfoot |
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moosedoggie |
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JohnGalt |
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Ausable |
I like maps because of the larger perspective that I get with just one glance. They also work without batteries and won't fail because of electronic issues (my GPS unit failed in the middle of my last trip). My problem is that I get careless using maps: I forget to take compass bearings for the next leg of the course; I try to navigate by comparing the map features to the terrain & I'm significantly less than 100% successful doing that. I do prefer using a GPS unit because it always shows me where I am. I don't like it because the small scale makes it inconvenient for route planning and review. |
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geotramper |
I also have maps on my phone using Gaia GPS. I have topos, satellite imagery, campsites, and portages available. I start tracking when we begin our travel and turn it off when we get to our campsite at the night. Otherwise, I don't look at it unless I am unsure about our location on the paper map and want to be certain. This happens rarely. I wouldn't want to only have my phone, even though it is a very powerful tool. Just like I wouldn't want to have only one copy of a map. Too easy for a phone to end up a the bottom of the lake or a map to blow away in the wind. |
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schweady |
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Kendis |
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MikeinMpls |
Like Ausable said, I fear batteries going dead or me dropping the unit into a lake. If I ever took a GPS, I would certainly have a paper map as a backup. I always take two different map sets: usually a Voyageur and a Fisher. Occasionally, the terrain for portages or campsites don't match one map but they do the other. I also like to have a map that covers the territory adjacent to my trip in case I have to take a different route back. My navigation is almost exclusively based on terrain association. I have my compass affixed to my thwart in front of me, secured with velcro, and I usually have it open just to ensure that I am generally going the right direction. I can shoot an azimuth of I need to, but I seldom find it necessary. And, like schweady, I mark my maps with campsite ratings and other notes prior to the trip. Mike |
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JohnGalt |
RodPortage: "I'm surprised to see how many people don't use maps. Looking at the map is one of my favorite parts of the trip. But I'm also surprised by the number of people who use maps but not compasses. Maybe it's because I do a lot of big water, or because I like to take something close to the shortest path, but I can't imagine how I would have navigated LLC, or parts of Crooked, or Little Sag, or lots of others without my compass. I keep the map case BDB'd to a thwart, with a compass tied to the map case, and I look at them a lot. " I too enjoy looking at the physical maps, something nostalgic about it. Usually the compass stays in the thwart map case though it has saved my bacon a few times with heavy early morning fog. |
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cowdoc |
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gravelroad |
TrailZen: "Map & compass, bow & stern. Reminds me of the time we hunted repeatedly for the inlet leading to the Silver Falls portage on the west side of Cache Bay. I vowed that the next inlet had to be the right one or I would forego supper. Fortunately my sternman didn’t hold me to that. Last time I was that sloppy with navigation. :-) Still map and compass, 52 years later. Once you’ve drowned an iPhone or watched it crap out in cold temperatures, you will have learned a vital lesson … |
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jsmithxc |
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A1t2o |
One time when I was turkey hunting off trail, I forgot my phone and didn't have any navigation. It was a little unnerving at first because I was counting on that being my map and compass, but it was actually nice to rely on landmarks and memory alone to get to where I needed to be. When you have your GPS up all the time and know exactly where you're at, I feel like you lose a bit of that spatial awareness and internal mapping. |
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Savage Voyageur |
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EddyTurn |
Savage Voyageur: "I navigate with my Garmin Montana GPS. Nothing beats a moving map when out on the water. Just point the GPS and the map rotates to the pointed direction. " GPS is perfect to show the current location, but not to aim at a distant point. I might be missing some important skills, but I find it really difficult to aim at something few klicks away using a tiny GPS screen, especially in bright sunlight. |
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TreeBear |
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EmmaMorgan |
MinnesotaJenny: "Hi to all the people who bring their phones and gps and use them during the trip, how do you keep it charged? Thanks "I think most bring a small power bank, like those made by Anker, Nitecore or Goal Zero. I use a Nitecore NB10000 on my trips. |
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BWPaddler |
Banksiana: "Memory and map. Not sure if I've ever used a compass though I always have one with me." +1 I love maps in general and miss my Rand McNally atlas that used to be in every car I owned. I have made the switch to cell phone navigation on roads, but not anything else yet. |
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Aldy1 |
I like recording my trips and find them helpful on long days to see how quickly we are moving. Helps determine estimated time to get to our destination. And it's fun to look back at saved routes - to see how straight we paddled, things like that. I love sitting in my hammock at camp looking at the paper map after a long day. 'You are here'. |
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Z4K |
Cordless drills recently became popular for running ice augers and they were quickly banned from the BWCA. Drones were also quickly banned. Modern forward-facing sonars were quickly banned from some competitions but remain legal in the BWCA. Laptops, ice fishing flashers and other small electronics have electronic motors in them but the USFS looks the other way. The line is only clear when it relates to making observable mass spin. GPS and satellite communications units wouldn't ever be banned for safety reasons, but should there ever be another line drawn? I am not aware of any weight- or type-restrictions on batteries. How many years before that becomes an issue? What about solar panels? I'd hate to be paddling across Knife Lake and run into 100 square feet of solar panels staring south across the lake because someone is John Galt-ing their work-from-home job for the summer. What if they capsize on the way out with 300# of batteries and various electronics that are not fully recovered? We are currently on that trajectory. |
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Savage Voyageur |
EddyTurn: "Savage Voyageur: "I navigate with my Garmin Montana GPS. Nothing beats a moving map when out on the water. Just point the GPS and the map rotates to the pointed direction. " Well my GPS I talked about above has a large touchscreen, 4” diagonal screen so it’s pretty easy to read. It has a crystal clear enhanced colors and is Sunlight readable. If you calibrate your compass your maps will read accurate to where you are pointing it. It also has a point and shoot feature. You just point it at a distant point you want to paddle to and hit a button and it will draw a line to the point you are heading to. When you reach that point and need another distant point you just shoot another point. The map you are following will show you if you deviate off the line. The Montana 700 model has a 5” diagonal screen. |
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Minnesotian |
Yep, still use paper maps and pretty exclusively only paper maps. There is something about setting a compass reading in the early morning when the lake is so socked in with fog you can't see the far shore, let alone not being able to see 10 feet ahead, and knowing you will get there because of that compass and map setting. For some places I'll take a backup map, like Quetico. There I bring in the Fisher Maps, but have the Chrismar map as well, mostly for the portage locations, but if in a pinch could navigate with that one too. I do bring in a GPS as well, mostly for a backup to the backup, but also if I am bushwhacking. Stuck in those thickets of trees and not seeing 5' in any direction, and it is a cloudy day, it's nice to have the GPS along for verification of location. However, bringing only one way of navigation and no other navigational aid is a recipe for disaster. I have seen my fair share of cameras, phones, sunglasses, etc. go over the side of the boat, including paper maps caught by the wind. In my pack of 10 essentials, of which navigation is one of them, I try to have a backup to each one, depending on the trip. |
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A1t2o |
Savage Voyageur: "EddyTurn: "Savage Voyageur: "I navigate with my Garmin Montana GPS. Nothing beats a moving map when out on the water. Just point the GPS and the map rotates to the pointed direction. " I feel like this is useful but at the same time we are losing something with this level of guidance. I like it when my phone loses signal and I can no longer download maps for my GPS. Don't get me wrong, I download maps for offline viewing, but not zoomed in to any level of detail. Pretty much just so I can tell if I'm on the wrong lake, which only happened one time! There's just something about getting around with only waxed paper to tell you where you are going. |
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ockycamper |
However, the maps are mainly used in camp to decide where to paddle to each morning. Everyone uses GPS I am amazed that the majority on this thread are still using just paper maps. . . .and yet used GPS vs paper map to drive to the BWCA. Just a thought! |
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straighthairedcurly |
I remember going for a hike in a TX state park one time. We had a paper map for the hike. About 15 minutes from the trail head we came across a panicked group of 20 somethings. "Do you know where the trailhead is?" First of all, there were about 5-6 trailheads, but I took a stab and said "Which one? The one that has a maroon Jeep parked at it?" "YES! How do we get there? Our phone died that we were using to navigate." After we set them off with written directions and a hand drawn map, I turned to my son and said, "I hope you're never that stupid." He assured me he isn't and would always at least have a paper map as back up. Electronics are good until they aren't and having only a single way to navigate is a good way to end up in trouble some day. Best IMO is to have both GPS and a map. |
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OCDave |
I only use my phone to listen to a podcast in the hammock when I am tired enough to want sleep but the skies are still looking "daylight-ish" . |
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woodsandwater |
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4keys |
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dschult2 |
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RetiredDave |
One time I was fighting wind and I couldn't really stop to check the map. I pulled ashore to rest, but I didn't know exactly where I was on the map. I looked at it, looked at the horizon on the far shore and had a strong gut feeling that I should head one way, but the compass disagreed. I followed the compass reading, and of course the unbiased compass was right. Dave |
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EmmaMorgan |
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Dreamer |
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JimmyJustice |
ducks: "Map and compass, but I’ve never taken the compass out and used it. +1...but someday I should practice my compass skills to see if I remember how to use it for something other than general direction. |
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bottomtothetap |
Banksiana: "Memory and map. Not sure if I've ever used a compass though I always have one with me." Same here though on occasion I have pulled out the compass I've packed either in foggy weather or to confirm what the I'm discerning from the maps. When in groups I usually have one map per canoe. When In the BWCA I always turn my phone off and leave it back at the vehicle and have never taken it with me into the wilderness. |
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bottomtothetap |
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YardstickAngler |
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hairtux |
boonie: "EmmaMorgan: "MinnesotaJenny: "Hi to all the people who bring their phones and gps and use them during the trip, how do you keep it charged? Thanks "I think most bring a small power bank, like those made by Anker, Nitecore or Goal Zero. I use a Nitecore NB10000 on my trips. " I have a phone that has an extreme battery saver mode which gets me through all trips without needing to recharge. But still mostly rely on cloth maps from True North and use Gaia on the phone when I'm unsure about something. |
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OgimaaBines |
moosedoggie: "Map and compass is my primary navigation with GPS as a backup and fishing spot marker." Same. Love the paper and compass but use my cell and garmin inreach mini for communication/weather and occasional map exporation of sat imagery from the Garmin associated Earthmate app. |
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Stumpy |
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boonie |
EmmaMorgan: "MinnesotaJenny: "Hi to all the people who bring their phones and gps and use them during the trip, how do you keep it charged? Thanks "I think most bring a small power bank, like those made by Anker, Nitecore or Goal Zero. I use a Nitecore NB10000 on my trips. " You can also reduce the power a phone uses by using airplane mode and turning off many things. |
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JD |
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fun4dad2 |
This is long and bit philosophical, so good luck, or just scroll down to the next post. The big question is Map or GPS? Or some combination. Let's look at some pros and cons of each. Maps: Never need recharging. Assuming they are waterproof, they are pretty much indestructible unless you get careless with your campfire or stove, and hopefully anyone reading this is not that... ahem, stupid. Or clumsy. They are great for looking at the "big picture" of where you are and where you want to head to next. Cons for maps are that you have to be able to read one. If you have no idea what that blue area is, or why there are red lines with "112 rd" it will be useless. Now, if you can't handle that, you probably would not be able to use a GPS device effectively anyway. You also have to keep track of where you are. The map does not have the handy "you are here" on it. GPS: Normally pretty accurate for determining right where you are. I will say, I had a Garmin from.... 20 years ago?... and it was consistently off by anywhere from 50 to 150 meters. It had me up on land when I was on a boat. But, it would have been close enough that I could tell I was on Cirrus and not Quetico as an example. If you have a reasonably modern device it can give you the track of your trip for looking at again in the dark days of winter - on a map! LOL That is a nice feature, and probably fun. Cons for GPS: You have to charge them. Batteries die. Electronics break. Most models - I think - would sink pretty rapidly. Some are hard to read in bright sunlight, but I don't know about every device. We can all probably go on and on about the pros and cons. I have listed a few. But what about esthetics? Several people have brought up the idea of "the wilderness experience." One of the many reasons I go to canoe country is to get away from modern life. Oh, sure, I own a jetboil stove, and good tent, but is that too modern? Not for me. I want to be able to make my cup of coffee in the morning even if it is raining, and also not risk burning down my beautiful campsite. I personally use a map. I have always loved maps. I learned how to use one in the Boy Scouts, and was again "reminded" many times in the military. I look at paper maps, or online on a "real" computer (as in, a screen large enough for these old eyes to see!) whenever I need to see where something is or how to get that. I do use my GPS on my phone while driving - but I am not having a wilderness experience while driving. I am good with that. Once I put my butt on the canoe seat, I want to leave behind all the noise and hullabaloo of city living. "But I am not good with a map." Or, "I am worried, or just nervous about getting lost." I get it. Some people are just not comfortable trusting themselves to stay aware of their location on a map. My wife - who unfortunately does not accompany me on my trips - wants to know I am safe, and when I started taking our son along, she insisted I get something like a Garmin inreach. I use that. Once a day I hit the "here I am and all is good" button (no, not that simple, stop quibbling!). It sends her the message, along with GPS coordinates. I include my self in those, and also the contact person for anyone else going along with us. I use those coordinates to look at on my PAPER! maps when I get home, and relive some of the trip, and also mark up ideas for future trips. It can do two-way communications, but I don't use that. It is my safety device in case of emergency, but I don't use it for anything else. Cell phones have really good cameras these days, and I do use mine for that purpose. It stays on airplane mode the whole trip, and is turned off at night to save battery. I have NO interest in what is going on "in the real world" while I am out there. Nothing I can do to help anyone else anyway. I try to stay focused on the here and now, and don't worry about my taxes, or which clown will be elected next, or the stock price of IBM. None of that matters - to me - while I am paddling, and fishing, and doing my camp chores. So what do YOU use? Depends on you. I like my paper maps and they work for me. You mileage will vary. |