|
07/02/2024 03:01PM |
You are saying that if I look at this same result on July 7th and look at the permits available on July 5th, it will show me the number of unused/unclaimed permits as a number higher than 0 on that day?
|
07/02/2024 08:41PM |
Findian: "bfurlow: "Findian: "These people that order permits and hope to use them, or don't want other people to get them are just....PIGS!!!! Make permits $200 and no refund. Sure, the permit system is broken, but those in charge are not capable of fixing much."
Doesn't everyone reserve with the hope of using them? I have had times in the past where something came up and I simply wasn't able to go.
Painting with a very broad brush here. "
So, If I get sick and cannot go, I am more than happy to give up my $200 to the forest service.
So, educate me with a better solution. Sorry just the kind of person I am ... a problem solver. Not a "it can't" be done person.
As always it is a few wrecking it for everyone.
The online permit system always sucked. I had hughs net with 25 down and 4 up. Never got the permit I wanted. Now with Musks Starlink I might get a motor permit!!!"
I will take the imperfections of the online system over the old lottery system every day of the week.
|
07/02/2024 09:32PM |
wxce1260: "Findian: "bfurlow: "Findian: "These people that order permits and hope to use them, or don't want other people to get them are just....PIGS!!!! Make permits $200 and no refund. Sure, the permit system is broken, but those in charge are not capable of fixing much."
Doesn't everyone reserve with the hope of using them? I have had times in the past where something came up and I simply wasn't able to go.
Painting with a very broad brush here. "
So, If I get sick and cannot go, I am more than happy to give up my $200 to the forest service.
So, educate me with a better solution. Sorry just the kind of person I am ... a problem solver. Not a "it can't" be done person.
As always it is a few wrecking it for everyone.
The online permit system always sucked. I had hughs net with 25 down and 4 up. Never got the permit I wanted. Now with Musks Starlink I might get a motor permit!!!"
I will take the imperfections of the online system over the old lottery system every day of the week."
+1
|
06/29/2024 05:43PM |
sns: "Jaywalker: "I’m not understanding something. How can you tell the permits listed in the past were “unclaimed”, meaning someone reserved them and did not pick them up vs just unused permits that no one reserved? "
I am similarly confused/ignorant - and possibly suspicious that these are not 'hoarded' permits, but simply ones that were 'available' but unused."
Sorry, that was a bad choice of words on my part.
I should have been more specific about entry points that I had in mind. Returned and unclaimed was specifically what I meant. Clearly not all or maybe even most are unclaimed, just unused. As I was writing, I was thinking of the ones I had been paying close attention to. In those cases there were zero permits available the day before, or for the entire week prior-with the caveat being that of course they can pop up and be claimed quickly.
Lately I have been following certain entry points closely, so in cases like LIS N, Sawbill, and Lake One the permits were not available. I even see permits showing up after noon on the current date. And when I look a couple weeks out, frequently the most popular EP’s are claimed through early September at least.
I am fortunate to be able to decide to go on a moment’s notice, so I tend to keep a close eye on them, checking a couple times a day(I also have too much time, but that’s another story). Often, I have almost everything pre-packed and ready to go, making it easier.
Thanks for the feedback, I will try to clarify my post.
Fritty
|
06/30/2024 11:52AM |
|
06/29/2024 07:19PM |
schweady: "Heyfritty: "...In the search process I’ve been jumping forward and backwards and the other day noticed that permits were listed for days in the past.
At first I thought I might have jumped through a computer code wormhole, but I went back and forth and could still see them!..."
This is something I noticed last year, and maybe the year before. I really thought I was on to something valuable, but right then another site came up with their searchable listings of past permits taken, along with their permit cancellation alert option. I wasn't much later when this site introduced the same.
"
What is the site with the alert option?
|
06/29/2024 09:37PM |
|
06/29/2024 07:32PM |
Heyfritty: "schweady: "Heyfritty: "...In the search process I’ve been jumping forward and backwards and the other day noticed that permits were listed for days in the past.
At first I thought I might have jumped through a computer code wormhole, but I went back and forth and could still see them!..."
This is something I noticed last year, and maybe the year before. I really thought I was on to something valuable, but right then another site came up with their searchable listings of past permits taken, along with their permit cancellation alert option. I wasn't much later when this site introduced the same.
"
What is the site with the alert option?"
This site - Link to Info
|
06/29/2024 08:09PM |
To the OP question, yes that is permit hoarding.
There have been quite a few members on the forum that have admitted to doing this on a regular basis. The reason being that they have options of places and times to go based on their groups wants and availability to go.
IMO you can blame those that are doing the hoarding but must blame the USFS for having a reservation system that permits it to occur openly without penalty.
It might be that the USFS finds it easier to reduce permits with this method than it is to actually reduce permit quotas which thus would creating outrage from some entities and endless lawsuits/hearings.
The USFS knows exactly what has been happening for a long long time. They probably know stuff we don’t know because from the outside it’s preposterous. But it might be genius too.
Tom
|
06/30/2024 07:04AM |
tumblehome: "
It might be that the USFS finds it easier to reduce permits with this method than it is to actually reduce permit quotas which thus would creating outrage from some entities and endless lawsuits/hearings.
"
Well...is it working? Has there been less or more people in the BWCA this year then previous years? Or does it seem the same?
I have noticed there hasn't been any threads this year (yet) about terrible visitors destroying the campsite, or blocking portages, or excessive trash at a site.
I mean, isn't there a yearly thread about how overused the BWCA is and permit prices should be increased, or something done to reduce the overuse. If the Forest Service is a clever as implied, is the goal of reducing overuse being met, and without having to jack the permit cost?
|
06/30/2024 09:52AM |
The FS has made numerous comments that they are aware. Last fall outfitters seemed to ban together and complain privately and publicly to the FS. They (the FS) have in the past banned certain users or accounts, but I assume as long as you are part of a group it is an easy work around. I don’t think this is common?
Quetico in the 90’s had a worse problem with Hoarding. They revamped their system and permit availability improved. The difference in the Q is it is more expensive and the Park relies on permits for revenue, thus more motivation to fix it.
In the past I would have questioned Tumblehome and billconnor on the FS motives, but I’ve seen too many comments over the years of “we are aware” “we know who does this” “we are assessing what action to take” with little action taken. Ya can’t rule it out.
I personally think with the revolving door of leadership, different initiatives, funding, and staffing probably weigh in more on the inaction than purposefully using it to limit use. Also with everything the FS has to work on, my guess this is pretty far down on their list of priorities…the BWCAW is still available, the hoarding is annoying but you can work around it. It’s still a usable system and making changes will have a new set of problems to iron out…just not a priority to fix is my assumption.
T
|
07/28/2024 06:13PM |
|
07/28/2024 09:09PM |
TuscaroraBorealis: "Just my 2 cents...
I agree with others that the system isn't ideal but, try my best to work within the parameters that are in place and not stress about potential abuses that may be happening. We are ALL guilty of taking advantage of certain circumstances & not always following rules/laws 100% of the time. I wouldnt want the powers that be lording over everything that I'm not doing exactly right or could do better so, I think I should extend the same courtesy. Besides, I believe learning to how to suffer (even in minor terms such as this) without complaint is how I can grow in virtue.
The overwhelming sense I've gotten the past # of years is that sitting in front of my computer in late January waiting for 9:00 a.m. (or whatever time they officially release the overnight permits???) is akin to waiting outside of some store on black Friday waiting for the doors to open so I can stampede in. Which, ironically, is precisely the type of behaviors/attitudes I go to canoe country to get away from.
So, while I realize this isn't always possible for everyone, I've tried to distance myself from that insidious process and taken more of a "Thy will not my will" approach. Usually there are permits that eventually open up for most entries if I have a little flexibility. Although, early October has become more appealing as well. :)
"
This perspective is refreshing. Thank you, TB, for sharing. The comparison with Black Friday was on point...why is it the day after we celebrate being grateful for what we have there is a mad rush to get more?
I am grateful to hear your thoughts on going to the BW to avoid the identified behaviors. Good reminder for me.
Amen to your perspective about extending grace to those who make mistakes that are different from our own.
Again, TB, thank you for posting this message. As I head out this week with one of my daughters who just graduated from college, we will remember to be grateful for the last minute permit that was available for our adventure.
|
07/29/2024 09:09AM |
YetiJedi: "TuscaroraBorealis: "Just my 2 cents...
I agree with others that the system isn't ideal but, try my best to work within the parameters that are in place and not stress about potential abuses that may be happening. We are ALL guilty of taking advantage of certain circumstances & not always following rules/laws 100% of the time. I wouldnt want the powers that be lording over everything that I'm not doing exactly right or could do better so, I think I should extend the same courtesy. Besides, I believe learning to how to suffer (even in minor terms such as this) without complaint is how I can grow in virtue.
The overwhelming sense I've gotten the past # of years is that sitting in front of my computer in late January waiting for 9:00 a.m. (or whatever time they officially release the overnight permits???) is akin to waiting outside of some store on black Friday waiting for the doors to open so I can stampede in. Which, ironically, is precisely the type of behaviors/attitudes I go to canoe country to get away from.
So, while I realize this isn't always possible for everyone, I've tried to distance myself from that insidious process and taken more of a "Thy will not my will" approach. Usually there are permits that eventually open up for most entries if I have a little flexibility. Although, early October has become more appealing as well. :)
"
This perspective is refreshing. Thank you, TB, for sharing. The comparison with Black Friday was on point...why is it the day after we celebrate being grateful for what we have there is a mad rush to get more?
I am grateful to hear your thoughts on going to the BW to avoid the identified behaviors. Good reminder for me.
Amen to your perspective about extending grace to those who make mistakes that are different from our own.
Again, TB, thank you for posting this message. As I head out this week with one of my daughters who just graduated from college, we will remember to be grateful for the last minute permit that was available for our adventure."
Hear hear!
|
07/01/2024 01:56PM |
Findian: "These people that order permits and hope to use them, or don't want other people to get them are just....PIGS!!!! Make permits $200 and no refund. Sure, the permit system is broken, but those in charge are not capable of fixing much."
Doesn't everyone reserve with the hope of using them? I have had times in the past where something came up and I simply wasn't able to go.
Painting with a very broad brush here.
|
07/01/2024 05:44PM |
uqme2: "No joke!Findian: "The online permit system always sucked. I had hughs net with 25 down and 4 up. Never got the permit I wanted. Now with Musks Starlink I might get a motor permit!!!"
Is this an inside joke? Honest question."
|
07/01/2024 05:53PM |
NOBODY needs fiber to the house. It’s all about profit for the provider.
|
07/13/2024 03:31PM |
T
|
07/01/2024 02:04PM |
bfurlow: "Findian: "These people that order permits and hope to use them, or don't want other people to get them are just....PIGS!!!! Make permits $200 and no refund. Sure, the permit system is broken, but those in charge are not capable of fixing much."
Doesn't everyone reserve with the hope of using them? I have had times in the past where something came up and I simply wasn't able to go.
Painting with a very broad brush here. "
So, If I get sick and cannot go, I am more than happy to give up my $200 to the forest service.
So, educate me with a better solution. Sorry just the kind of person I am ... a problem solver. Not a "it can't" be done person.
As always it is a few wrecking it for everyone.
The online permit system always sucked. I had hughs net with 25 down and 4 up. Never got the permit I wanted. Now with Musks Starlink I might get a motor permit!!!
|
07/01/2024 05:10PM |
Findian: "The online permit system always sucked. I had hughs net with 25 down and 4 up. Never got the permit I wanted. Now with Musks Starlink I might get a motor permit!!!"
Is this an inside joke? Honest question.
|
07/01/2024 04:29PM |
Findian: "bfurlow: "Findian: "These people that order permits and hope to use them, or don't want other people to get them are just....PIGS!!!! Make permits $200 and no refund. Sure, the permit system is broken, but those in charge are not capable of fixing much."
Doesn't everyone reserve with the hope of using them? I have had times in the past where something came up and I simply wasn't able to go.
Painting with a very broad brush here. "
So, If I get sick and cannot go, I am more than happy to give up my $200 to the forest service.
So, educate me with a better solution. Sorry just the kind of person I am ... a problem solver. Not a "it can't" be done person.
As always it is a few wrecking it for everyone.
The online permit system always sucked. I had hughs net with 25 down and 4 up. Never got the permit I wanted. Now with Musks Starlink I might get a motor permit!!!"
First month-maybe allowed to sign up for two permits only and make it at least $20.00 for cancelled permits not cancelled two weeks in advance.?
|
07/11/2024 06:31AM |
|
07/11/2024 06:56AM |
tumblehome: "
NOBODY needs fiber to the house. It’s all about profit for the provider.
"
I switched to fiber from cable internet a few years ago. Fiber was about 50% cheaper. Fiber as competition to cable or satellite internet is a good thing. It promotes competition and reduces consumer prices.
|
07/11/2024 07:03AM |
HowardSprague: "They could consider incorporating some of the things hotels and airlines do, though effectiveness of reducing no-shows would be tempered by the fact the permits don't cost as much.
"
I spend hundreds of dollars per person on travel, accommodations, and food, not to mention scheduling time off from work well in advance of the trip. So do many people if they're being honest with themselves on the wear and tear on their vehicle in addition to the gas cost. Between my canoe and gear, I've spent thousands more. The permit is a miniscule portion of the annual cost.
Permits could cost twice their current price and I still wouldn't bat an eye at making a backup reservation in case something happens between January and my trip months later. I think people in a group who collectively reserve all permits on a particular day at a particular EP would agree.
Discouraging permit hoarding would require an astronomical price increase with no refund policies, or some other policy mechanism.
|
07/10/2024 06:57PM |
I never thought about it as stealing a trip from others but that is a perspective of a wise man. Thanks.
Tom
|
07/10/2024 07:09PM |
tumblehome: "Bradcrc- you summed it up and read my mind. Totally agree.
I never thought about it as stealing a trip from others but that is a perspective of a wise man. Thanks.
Tom
"
Agree, it is stealing from others. It’s sort of where we are at as a society, just look out for yourself and what you need.
T
|
07/11/2024 10:25AM |
Anyway onto the "hoarding" thing. Counting a no-show as hoarding is a massive leap unless you can prove somehow that the same person has been reserving these spaces.
Examples that would be counted as "hoarding" under these definitions:
-A party couldn't make it to the ranger station at their assigned time and goes in anyway
-A party can't make it due to scheduling and says "eh it was just a few bucks I won't bother cancelling"
-A party gets the permit and intentionally skips the ranger station
Income based payment options would be a great one too, ha! How do we enforce that? Please submit a copy of your 2023 W-2, any stock trades you may have made, and a recent bank statement before proceeding to the reservation page :) Imagine that!
|
07/10/2024 12:04PM |
timatkn: "What Quetico did is charge a flat fee of I believe $108. If you cancel within 4 months or less you lose that fee. Then a rolling increase in cancellation fees the closer to the date you get.
Once again, hoarding was a serious issue in Quetico in the 90’s, they took action. It sounds harsh, but what it does is “help” people only book permits that they actually intend to actually use. It eliminates the what if’s, the back up permits, and the minimizes the no shows. There is actually better access to the park now than there was in the 90’s.
Wait. What? I have no recollection of that whatsoever. Southern entries, perhaps? Enlighten me please, TimA
|
07/11/2024 12:13PM |
afromaniac: "Fiber is so much more reliable than anything else, why should we accept less?
Anyway onto the "hoarding" thing. Counting a no-show as hoarding is a massive leap unless you can prove somehow that the same person has been reserving these spaces.
Examples that would be counted as "hoarding" under these definitions:
-A party couldn't make it to the ranger station at their assigned time and goes in anyway
-A party can't make it due to scheduling and says "eh it was just a few bucks I won't bother cancelling"
-A party gets the permit and intentionally skips the ranger station
Income based payment options would be a great one too, ha! How do we enforce that? Please submit a copy of your 2023 W-2, any stock trades you may have made, and a recent bank statement before proceeding to the reservation page :) Imagine that! "
One no-show on a reservation could be having bad luck in travelling.
Two no-shows could be having a couple bouts of REALLY bad luck travelling.
Three no-shows would be an indication of hoarding. Time to put them on the "banned" list for upcoming years.
|
07/10/2024 12:00PM |
BWCA: "
1854 of these were 7 days or less prior to the entry date. This may include some now shows, but that isn't clear if all those are captured so it could be more. This also is likely to include people who dropped one permit and picked up another that became available.
This does not account for cancellations for permits that otherwise had availability or had multiple no shows.
"
I am enjoying reading this thread, but I think our discussions are still hampered by a lot of confusion. I simply do not understand what the quote above means.
I’m going to summarize some of my key takeaways thus far:
(1) hoarding is strictly defined as holding multiple permits that one cannot use under the rules. This is accomplished with the help/collusion of other people—whether people in your group or others enlisted to help you out.
(2) since nobody can tell if you are hoarding, the practice goes u checked and is not costly to the hoarder/s.
(3) hoarding as defined above will ultimately be revealed in statistics as late cancellations or no shows.
(4) making multiple reservations for different times, while you are trying to work out your travel plans, is not hoarding. But there do not appear to be good incentives for people to release reservations ASAP, well in advance, so that the vast majority of paddlers have time to plan accordingly.
(5) cancellations and no shows, whether or not hoarding was involved, are important ways that USFS is currently managing BWCA use.
(6) over use of BWCA is a problem for all and does need to be managed, but there are competing interests involved. Reducing the number of permits a couple years ago drew the vocal ire of the guiding and tow community. Not totally sure if it has had a bad effect on the local economy more broadly. Personally, on several trips before and since, I have found that reducing permits has resulted in a much better experience of BWCA, especially cleaner campsites and more respectful behavior by campers and paddlers. If cancellations and no shows are a key part of the better experience I am noticing, then I am reluctant to support change in the system without a lot of new data.
(7) I totally understand the anxiety of paddlers who cannot work within the current system. As a climber I have worked with other permit systems worldwide, and this one is far from the most restrictive. What needs to happen so that the serious paddlers who feel they are really being harmed can be satisfied?
(8) jerks who game the system or behave irresponsibly and get caught should suffer SERIOUS penalties. Money should be the least of it. I’m not ruling out public disclosure (shaming) or revocation of privileges for a number of years for all people involved in the scam/hoarding. Trouble is, how can/will all the facts be determined?
|
07/11/2024 01:45PM |
timatkn: "The US operates their parks to make it more affordable, they belong to everyone, they aren’t open to be sustainable. In many ways that is noble. The issue is people take advantage of the inexpensiveness to manipulate the system in their favor.
T"
It's (partially) a supply and demand issue. Demand is much higher than supply, and there's no pricing mechanism to address this. BW permits and State Park/NF/NPS camping fees are incredibly inexpensive, particularly when you consider how much demand there is for them.
|
07/10/2024 12:22PM |
I might start with a no show escrow fee for every permit. This fee could reasonably be $100? I am open as to what entity or institution should hold the funds in escrow, and what the funds should be used for. In the past this would have been a nightmare to manage for any entity, but there are many app based ventures now for guaranteeing escrow accounts.
No shows would require a timely letter or email explaining the reason for the bad behavior. No drop downs. A written explanation would be required. With details. Evidence encouraged (photos etc). An email, physical address and telephone number would be required for this form. That starts a data capture system where repeat offenders can be flagged. Writer agrees to be contacted by telephone if needed.
If no letter is furnished at all, you forfeit 100% of your funds in escrow. And you are either banned from BWCA for a specified period, or else you are put at the BOTTOM of the queue when permits are issued next season—for x amount of seasons.
Appeals would be allowed by letter or email. Meaning what if the no show was a bad car wreck and “perp” totally forgot to follow up for understandable reasons. They should get forgiveness. Maybe not their money back but no other penalties.
If you furnish a letter with explanation, you have to state truthfully that nobody else was holding reservations on your behalf. This could be a check the box thing—but it needs to be seen to be a very big deal so that people get scared and are deterred from hoarding. If your explanation is plausible, you get off the hook and 50 percent of your escrow is refunded or something.
This allows “us” to designate authorities to call offenders randomly and if it turns out they were breaking the rules, ban them and their associates. For instance, if the database shows that there were 12 late cancellations from Shaker Heights for entries on or around the same date, with somebody from Shaker Heights pulling a no show, we might well be able to identify that as hoarding by a follow up phone call . And all those people would be banned.
So these are my initial thoughts. Tell me what you think.
|
07/11/2024 02:15PM |
thistlekicker: "Agreed, but to point to what I think is Tim's point, this is a feature, not a bug. They are public lands and they belong to everyone. Pricing poor people out of this sort of defeats the purpose.timatkn: "The US operates their parks to make it more affordable, they belong to everyone, they aren’t open to be sustainable. In many ways that is noble. The issue is people take advantage of the inexpensiveness to manipulate the system in their favor.
T"
It's (partially) a supply and demand issue. Demand is much higher than supply, and there's no pricing mechanism to address this. BW permits and State Park/NF/NPS camping fees are incredibly inexpensive, particularly when you consider how much demand there is for them."
|
07/12/2024 06:22PM |
|
07/06/2024 04:45AM |
Out of the permits cancelled or unused, no shows were about 40 percent
|
07/06/2024 06:13AM |
Deeznuts: "It's aged data but you can fond the graphs in the usage report released in 2022.
Out of the permits cancelled or unused, no shows were about 40 percent
How can anyone say the system is working?
|
07/06/2024 02:23PM |
|
07/08/2024 06:35PM |
EasyFisher: "billconner: "Happening everywhere.
Empty campsites "
While it's similar, it's not quite the same. I think the argument of hoarding BWCA permits seems to be so that when you go in, less people are going in at the same time as you.
But i don't think the FS cares as well either. Though it is small $$, They are still getting paid for those reservations. "
I thought the majority of cancelations and no shows were people making multiple reservations to be able to pick later when time off was the leader.
I dont think the forest service cares much either way about permit fees. Doesn't affect their budget like it does in Quetico.
|
07/06/2024 10:09AM |
-Refundable permits at a higher price vs non-refundable permits, with raised fees for both.
-Refundable only if cancelled xx # days before permit date
-Higher cost for particular EP's
-Designate certain EP's as "Non-refundable EP's"
As with airline and hotel reservations, cancelled permits aren't nearly as much of a problem if permits are returned to inventory in a reasonable time. But it still turns some people away, as most of us can't just go to the BW on a week's notice.
I think people taking their second or third EP choice is probably very common...do some grab those permits in hopes of another opening up at some point, and abandoning the original booking if choice 1 opens up (give or take a few days --- I think the system stops you from booking two on the same day, but someone else in the group might do so..)? So should there be a (price-adjusting) "EP swap" function, wherein maybe you have a permit for #16 but wanted #47. You see a 47 open up, select the swap and the system cancels your 16 while rebooking to 47? a 16 is now open for someone else to take.
|
06/29/2024 04:56PM |
Heyfritty: "...In the search process I’ve been jumping forward and backwards and the other day noticed that permits were listed for days in the past.
At first I thought I might have jumped through a computer code wormhole, but I went back and forth and could still see them!..."
This is something I noticed last year, and maybe the year before. I really thought I was on to something valuable, but right then another site came up with their searchable listings of past permits taken, along with their permit cancellation alert option. I wasn't much later when this site introduced the same.
|
06/29/2024 11:21AM |
I’ve been hoping that a permit would pop up for a couple different trips I’m leading, and one for a friend of mine-two in July and one in September(EP 16-which I did snag). In the search process I’ve been jumping forward and backwards and the other day noticed that permits were listed for days in the past.
At first I thought I might have jumped through a computer code wormhole, but I went back and forth and could still see them! [I just looked and apparently fell back out of the wormhole! But was able to pop through again]. I could see them all the way back to May 1!
Because I have too much time I check twice, sometimes 3 times a day. When I first discovered this, I just scanned some EP’s that I had been watching closely.
I know this isn’t the case for all, or maybe even most entry points, but I was surprised to see that LIS N for example, had a total of 10 returned and then unclaimed for the previous 2 weeks. And as of 7:00 today, it was 11 for EP 16. On top of that for EP 16, there are 17 open in the next 11 days! After that there are only 2 available before 9/25!
Is this evidence of permit hoarding?
Fritty
|
06/29/2024 01:51PM |
|
06/29/2024 03:28PM |
|
06/29/2024 05:15PM |
|
06/29/2024 05:26PM |
Jaywalker: "I’m not understanding something. How can you tell the permits listed in the past were “unclaimed”, meaning someone reserved them and did not pick them up vs just unused permits that no one reserved? "
I am similarly confused/ignorant - and possibly suspicious that these are not 'hoarded' permits, but simply ones that were 'available' but unused.
|
06/30/2024 05:01AM |
I'm with tumble home and believe forest service uses late canceled and not picked up permits as a means to keep population down. Less outcry than reducing quota, same effect.
I do wonder if these permits are available any sooner at a forest service station than on line. Like if you showed up at the forest service station at noon, would you have more options than what was on line several days before.
|
06/30/2024 10:11AM |
In those interviews they defined Hoarding as booking more permits than you intend to use and cancelling them with minimal or no time for any other group to get that permit or just not picking the permit up.
Examples:
1. A group or paddler is planning to do one trip but books let’s say 3 permits for different date then waits till the last second to cancel the other 2 permits or never cancels them.
2. A group actively books several permits for the same day, same entry, then either cancels last second or just lets them go to ensure less groups at their entry. I won’t go into details on how to do this…but I don’t think it is that hard.
They have attempted some changes to track better. If you personally book multiple permits on the same day it will automatically cancel them now (unless you are a non profit). Previously you could do this. They now make you add more group members info/emails I believe to track better. But really if you have minor computer savvy, you could work around this.
T
|
07/03/2024 02:18PM |
|
06/30/2024 07:54PM |
|
07/01/2024 06:18PM |
|
07/01/2024 06:39PM |
tumblehome: "Well this went off the rails so I’ll play. I have 2 meg download in the hinterlands. Never stopped me from getting any permits. I can even stream Netflix. Bandwidth is more marketing for most homeowners unless you have several people streaming at once.How many motor permits for you this year? I could tag along and show you the spots!
NOBODY needs fiber to the house. It’s all about profit for the provider.
Sawbill campground has fiber optic, thanks to a $20 million government grant. My first thought when you pointed out fiberoptic being a waste of money.
|
07/03/2024 01:01PM |
timatkn: "billconner: "If every permit was used, they'd have to reduce the number of permits available, so what's the difference?"
I don’t think the argument is that every permit needs to be used.
Anecdotally last year I booked a Lake One permit for the second week of August. That entire week was booked in January. By the time we entered, that week was close to 50% open…I don’t know the final no shows but the parking lot was ghost town on one of the busiest weeks of the summer. The no show rate has been creeping upwards. Wasn’t it 20-30% last year, it used to be under 10% (not 100% sure on last years numbers)
T"
The thing that jumps out to me in the 30% cancellation is lost revenue for outfitters. Granted, many take a deposit, but it's still lost income on the package that may get reserved, and money spent locally.
|
07/03/2024 06:57AM |
billconner: "If every permit was used, they'd have to reduce the number of permits available, so what's the difference?"
I don’t think the argument is that every permit needs to be used.
The issues with hoarding, at least according to the FS is that upwards of 75% the permits at a given entry can go unused when it was completely booked in January. That’s an extreme case of course, but it’s an issue of access and fairness.
Anecdotally last year I booked a Lake One permit for the second week of August. That entire week was booked in January. By the time we entered, that week was close to 50% open…I don’t know the final no shows but the parking lot was ghost town on one of the busiest weeks of the summer. The no show rate has been creeping upwards. Wasn’t it 20-30% last year, it used to be under 10% (not 100% sure on last years numbers)
I can selfishly think good for me, but what about people/families who couldn’t book a trip and yet there was room? How much revenue was lost to Ely and outfitter business?
It’s great for old retired guys or people that know how to work the system like myself. Not so great for everyone else. Not a lot of people can book last minute week long vacations with their jobs.
T
|
07/03/2024 11:30AM |
|
07/03/2024 06:11AM |
|
07/03/2024 05:55PM |
|
07/04/2024 12:14AM |
billconner: "In terms of the lost revenue, aren't there still more people tripping than 5 years ago? "
Actually no the numbers are lower than usual. For example in 2016 the BWCAW had 156,000 visitors—which is the more recent average (2010-2019). In 2022 it was 150,000. 2023 isn’t in yet that I could see, but will probably be lower yet. The one aberration was 2019 at 146,000 people…but the previous were all well over the last couple of years I believe.
Historical high estimates in the 1980’s-1990’s was up to 250,000 visitors? Although I am not sure if those estimates are 100% accurate. That was back when the daily entry quotas were much higher. There have been a couple of adjustments lower.
2023 saw a significant increase in late cancels and fails (doubled from the previous year which was already an all time high), but I haven’t seen any hard numbers.
T
|
07/04/2024 11:40PM |
Yes, I have noticed the same thing. I’ve noticed it ever since it was tracked online.
T
|
07/04/2024 04:31PM |
gsfisher13: "So if I'm reading this correctly you are saying you can determine how many permits go unused/unclaimed by looking at before and after pictures. For instance Crab Lake coming up has 0 available permits for Friday July 5th.
You are saying that if I look at this same result on July 7th and look at the permits available on July 5th, it will show me the number of unused/unclaimed permits as a number higher than 0 on that day? "
After correcting my poor wording, I think my description of the instances were more understandable and quite a bit more specific. What you describe is accurate, but what I was trying to explain was that I was only referring to permits returned. With the data I can see, that’s all I can say definitively. And I only scrutinized a handful of EP’s. Meaning at least twice a day but usually 3 or 4 times, and often more. Probably 7 or 8 times today.
I’m sure a number of us here scan the reservation page from time to time. Perhaps the week after they first become available, as I do. But some of us occasionally check throughout the summer-for many reasons. One reason for me in the past. was to have an understanding for the future of EP that should I reserve first, 2nd, etc. The first day, after I have my 2 or 3 permits, I look closely at regular intervals(minutes, multiple minutes, hours, days, weeks…
And then in March, April, May… I look at my iPad to go through every rec.gov reservation page(EP’s) from late May through mid-September. So basically, I scan every entry point for every day of the season. (Too much time has been confessed, after this add pedantic). What stupid, time-wasting BWCA related habits do some of us have?
This was not a research project, I don’t analyze the data, I just like looking at the number of EP’s with zero permits(popularity). Checking just now-I am able to see 11 EP’s per page over 10 days. In the past, depending on how they’re sorted, occasionally there will be a page with something like only four “1’s” total. If I pick a popular EP, and click through the time frame, all zeros are common at least through August.
In this case I was very closely watching EP’s/dates for 3 people. I would pay especially close attention(3-4x/day) when the entry date is within 2 weeks. So I know certain EP’s were a string of zeros very recently. Starting about 10 days in the future, the zeros often become 1’s, 2’s and occasionally 3’s. For example, I’m currently looking for a 7/15 permit for EP 30.
Right now (6:15pm, 7/4) on the page starting 7/5, for EP30, the series goes 0431010110. And those numbers haven’t changed in the last 3-4 days-maybe 1 permit. 2 weeks ago…all zeros. And on the page starting with the date I’m hoping for(7/15), the series is currently 0100000000. I’d be willing to bet that those zeros will start changing very soon. Hopefully with one on 7/15. Of course I won’t see short-lived permits, but I think the consistent pattern provides be solid evidence.
This isn’t where I was heading at all, but I wrote a provocative titIe that maybe I shouldn’t have. I just started the thread because I couldn’t remember seeing anything(past history) before. I thought it might be a glitch and wondered if anyone else “discovered” this? So it seems that my observation skills are poor(I’ll add it to my list).
But… I just remembered that I apologized in advance:-)
Fritty
|
07/05/2024 12:48PM |
timatkn: "If I understand you correctly Fritty… and that’s a big if :)
Yes, I have noticed the same thing. I’ve noticed it ever since it was tracked online.
T"
I better not say any more. I just seem to make it sound more confusing every time. No worries. But yes timatkn, I think we’re on the same page. :-)
|
07/05/2024 12:21PM |
timatkn: "billconner: "In terms of the lost revenue, aren't there still more people tripping than 5 years ago? "
Actually no the numbers are lower than usual. For example in 2016 the BWCAW had 156,000 visitors—which is the more recent average (2010-2019). In 2022 it was 150,000. 2023 isn’t in yet that I could see, but will probably be lower yet. The one aberration was 2019 at 146,000 people…but the previous were all well over the last couple of years I believe.
Historical high estimates in the 1980’s-1990’s was up to 250,000 visitors?
T
"
|
07/05/2024 07:34PM |
uqme2: "timatkn: "billconner: "In terms of the lost revenue, aren't there still more people tripping than 5 years ago? "
"
Weird uqme2…Thanks for sharing. I found the same data as you posted but then I got my numbers directly from FS interview.
That data doesn’t look as bad as the FS makes it sound in the article?
Interestingly from the data source you posted it shows No shows increased by 205% and cancellation by 236% since 2019.
T
|
07/06/2024 01:35PM |
Everything is full in January so ya feel like ya have to do this. Quetico using a rolling 5 month permit availability. I like that better, but probably harder to manage.
T
|
07/06/2024 02:38PM |
|
07/06/2024 04:27PM |
Deeznuts: "It's aged data but you can fond the graphs in the usage report released in 2022.I am surprised how many are overnight motor permits. So few and hard to get.
Out of the permits cancelled or unused, no shows were about 40 percent
|
07/07/2024 06:22PM |
Findian: "Deeznuts: "It's aged data but you can fond the graphs in the usage report released in 2022.
Out of the permits cancelled or unused, no shows were about 40 percent
How can anyone say the system is working? "
The footnote that no shows are expected and a part of the quota system seems to suggest it is working. Would be useful to know the mean number of days in advance of entry the cancellations.
Confusing to me that the discussion here swings from it being overcrowded to some kind of "hoarding" , expected or not.
|
07/07/2024 06:45PM |
|
07/08/2024 06:31AM |
Empty campsites
|
07/08/2024 08:26AM |
billconner: "Happening everywhere.
Empty campsites "
We haven't camped at one of these larger USFS campgrounds for several years. However, we will drive through them to make mental note for future trips as we get older and our ability to paddle in is lessened. That said, I am absolutely astounded by the number of campsites with the little reservation tag that are unoccupied. And I'm not talking eight in the morning, but well into the afternoon when those with the reservation would be expected to show...Or reservation tags for the day before that were on unoccupied campsites.
I've wondered what the etiquette is for claiming these sites that will obviously not be used by the parties who reserved them.
To me, reserving a campsite and not showing or not canceling is despicable and is just as egregious as any other disrespect to other trippers that we often discuss on this board. Time to make deposits larger with a less generous refund policy. As with many things in today's world, a minority will spoil it for the rest of us.
Mike
|
07/08/2024 01:44PM |
tumblehome: "Well this went off the rails so I’ll play. I have 2 meg download in the hinterlands. Never stopped me from getting any permits. I can even stream Netflix. Bandwidth is more marketing for most homeowners unless you have several people streaming at once.
NOBODY needs fiber to the house. It’s all about profit for the provider.
I have two separate fiber lines to my house- Arvig and TDS. Pretty nice way to keep prices down.
|
07/08/2024 12:26PM |
billconner: "Happening everywhere.
Empty campsites "
While it's similar, it's not quite the same. I think the argument of hoarding BWCA permits seems to be so that when you go in, less people are going in at the same time as you. I do not know for certain, but don't think people at campgrounds are reserving their site and 5 more adjacent campsites so that there are less people???
I know in IN the state parks have caused this problem themselves, but I'm not sure they care as well, as long as the campground is "full" and they are getting paid (weather people show or not). In order to reserve during a holiday weekend, you have to reserve 3 nights. You can make reservation as early as 6 months out from the first night of your stay.
So if you wanted to reserve Fri/Sat/Sun nights of a holiday weekend at a state park you can reserve 6 months prior to that Fri (but if you wait until then, the campground will be full). Forcing people to reserve Wed/Thur/Fri/Sat/Sun nights, so that they can make their reservation 3 days sooner than the person trying to wait unitl 6 months out from Fri.
My group of friends families (most don't really camp, and car camping is asking a lot) have a reservation for Thur - Mon for four sites at a state park for Labor Day weekend. Most of our friends are only going to come for 1 or 2 nights. I am sure they would have happily only reserved Sat night if they were allowed, and cancelled the other nights. But it's not possible, the parks don't care because they are getting their money. I don't feel bad in this situation, because most of these kids, it's the only time they will get to go camping. But it is making camping less accessible and too costly for a lot of families. (I'd say don't even get me started on tent vs RV camping, but it's clear who the the state parks are catering too).
Back to the topic at hand. Hoarding BWCA permits is no bueno.
But i don't think the FS cares as well either. Though it is small $$, They are still getting paid for those reservations. The fact that someone no showed isn't costing them any financial hardship. And to other points made in this thread, it looks like they are depending on that in their daily permit limits.
|
07/08/2024 12:26PM |
billconner: "Happening everywhere.
Empty campsites "
While it's similar, it's not quite the same. I think the argument of hoarding BWCA permits seems to be so that when you go in, less people are going in at the same time as you. I do not know for certain, but don't think people at campgrounds are reserving their site and 5 more adjacent campsites so that there are less people???
I know in IN the state parks have caused this problem themselves, but I'm not sure they care as well, as long as the campground is "full" and they are getting paid (weather people show or not). In order to reserve during a holiday weekend, you have to reserve 3 nights. You can make reservation as early as 6 months out from the first night of your stay.
So if you wanted to reserve Fri/Sat/Sun nights of a holiday weekend at a state park you can reserve 6 months prior to that Fri (but if you wait until then, the campground will be full). Forcing people to reserve Wed/Thur/Fri/Sat/Sun nights, so that they can make their reservation 3 days sooner than the person trying to wait unitl 6 months out from Fri.
My group of friends families (most don't really camp, and car camping is asking a lot) have a reservation for Thur - Mon for four sites at a state park for Labor Day weekend. Most of our friends are only going to come for 1 or 2 nights. I am sure they would have happily only reserved Sat night if they were allowed, and cancelled the other nights. But it's not possible, the parks don't care because they are getting their money. I don't feel bad in this situation, because most of these kids, it's the only time they will get to go camping. But it is making camping less accessible and too costly for a lot of families. (I'd say don't even get me started on tent vs RV camping, but it's clear who the the state parks are catering too).
Back to the topic at hand. Hoarding BWCA permits is no bueno.
But i don't think the FS cares as well either. Though it is small $$, They are still getting paid for those reservations. The fact that someone no showed isn't costing them any financial hardship. And to other points made in this thread, it looks like they are depending on that in their daily permit limits.
|
07/09/2024 04:49AM |
|
07/09/2024 06:19AM |
|
07/09/2024 07:57AM |
But really the current issue isn’t that there are late cancels and no shows, they have always been present…it’s just that those numbers are going up exponentially. It’s not about eliminating them, it’s about not letting it get out of control.
Maybe it’s a 2-3 year aberration? Maybe it’s the new normal? Time will tell.
T
|
07/09/2024 11:39AM |
Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness
Permit and Visitor Use Trends
2009-2015
USDA Forest Service
FWIW Bill - Q fees go into the larger Ontario Parks pot.
|
07/09/2024 05:18PM |
timatkn: "Billconnor has a point…if the FS does too well of a job at reducing late cancels and no shows they would need to reduce the amount of permits. I guess I’d rather see that, than the weird early overbooking system we have now?? But that’s a personal preference.
But really the current issue isn’t that there are late cancels and no shows, they have always been present…it’s just that those numbers are going up exponentially. It’s not about eliminating them, it’s about not letting it get out of control.
Maybe it’s a 2-3 year aberration? Maybe it’s the new normal? Time will tell.
T
"
Should we maybe think about our own use of terminology so we can clarify what some or all of us are truly worried about?
Cancellations in general: these go back into the system well in advance. I think what most people are concerned about is having adequate time to plan a trip. For purposes of discussion, what do we consider to be a reasonable time for trip planning in permit season?
Late cancellations: the issue here is that people don’t have enough time to plan. Are these the same as same-day cancellations (meaning same day of planned entry?) Can we clarify exactly what we mean when we say late cancellations?
No shows and hoarding: are these the same thing? Is our primary concern that the system enables paddlers who want to buy seclusion? or is the primary concern that by hoarding all the permits for that EP on the day of entry, hoarders are ensuring for themselves better odds of finding a day 1 campsite?
Finally, can we come up with a term for the offshoot of this discussion identifying the phenomenon that USFS is counting on this behavior to keep wilderness use at manageable levels when issuing permits? Since the number of permits may depend on this phenomenon, it would be useful to have a term for it so we are all speaking the same language.
|
07/09/2024 01:52PM |
uqme2: "If it helps, Google:
Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness
Permit and Visitor Use Trends
2009-2015
USDA Forest Service
FWIW Bill - Q fees go into the larger Ontario Parks pot.
It’s hard to compare no shows and cancellations. The data in that report appears to only have total no shows and cancellations. It doesn’t seem to differentiate from OP vs. Motor for example.
Comparing total numbers of permits, cancellations, no shows from 2009 to 2022…our only apples to apples comparison at this point.
2009 had more permits issued, higher volume of usage yet
No shows were ~1400 in 2009 vs. ~4300 (5% vs 16%) and cancellations were ~3100 to ~8400 (11% vs. 37%). I wish they had a “late cancel” stat. … so a total of 16% of all permits in 2009 were no shows/cancels while in 2022 it was 53%. It’s not completely apples to apples as I think the motor numbers could skew things a little, but it shows the increase over time has risen quite a bit.
It’ll be a few weeks to a month before the USDA publishes 2023 numbers. So far the rumors are 2023 was worse than 2022. We’ll see.
T
|
07/09/2024 06:54PM |
The basic issue is permits being cancelled too late (either intentionally or not) to effectively be used. Most work places require 1-6 months notice to get a week off. So for arguments sake I’d say less than 3 months is poor notice for a permit to get used. I don’t know what the FS thinks.
In interviews the FS and Outfitters were more concerned about the less than a week cancels and the no shows. As I stated above comparing 2009 to 2022 cancel/no shows has risen from 16% to 53%…most of that in the last couple of years. I’d guess OP is slightly less for both years though.
T
|
07/09/2024 09:58PM |
Hmm, mulling this over. I don’t think 6 months can be reasonably thought of as a late cancellation, just based on my knowledge of how the American travel industry works. But I feel for those who need that much advance notice to get a week off work. That’s rough. I think one month (30 days) would be a reasonable threshold for the first tier of cancellation-with-penalty, given that permits are being released end of January, which is three months before ice out, and given the length of the permit season. Penalty for cancelling within 30 days is common for some vacation rental properties. It’s possible that six weeks might be well received as the first tier threshold.
As you get nearer to entry date, there seem to be two competing priorities. One is the goal of having available permits used by people who want to enjoy the wilderness. The other is the ISFS being able to use historical data to accurately predict, and therefore manage, what the actual usage will be. It sounds like the current system is being used that way, and even though cancellations have increased, USFS still isn’t totally satisfied with its performance in managing over crowding?
Seems to me that no shows indicate a misuse of the permit system and, without compelling written explanations, could reasonably be met with stiff penalties beyond the financial?
|
07/10/2024 05:52AM |
|
07/10/2024 06:36AM |
Here is some rough data for this year:
6790 Permits became available for entry points that were previously sold out this year.
1854 of these were 7 days or less prior to the entry date. This may include some now shows, but that isn't clear if all those are captured so it could be more. This also is likely to include people who dropped one permit and picked up another that became available.
This does not account for cancellations for permits that otherwise had availability or had multiple no shows. We are likely on trend to surpass 2022 numbers in cancellations.
|
07/10/2024 06:25AM |
I believe the fail/no show cost would be $54? It obviously isn’t enough to deter some people.
What Quetico did is charge a flat fee of I believe $108. If you cancel within 4 months or less you lose that fee. Then a rolling increase in cancellation fees the closer to the date you get.
Once again, hoarding was a serious issue in Quetico in the 90’s, they took action. It sounds harsh, but what it does is “help” people only book permits that they actually intend to actually use. It eliminates the what if’s, the back up permits, and the minimizes the no shows. There is actually better access to the park now than there was in the 90’s.
I don’t see that this is where we are headed. The US operates their parks to make it more affordable, they belong to everyone, they aren’t open to be sustainable. In many ways that is noble. The issue is people take advantage of the inexpensiveness to manipulate the system in their favor.
T
|
07/10/2024 03:18PM |
tumblehome: "I dunno. Three no-shows in a year indicates hoarding."
yea, I can imagine once, circumstances happening. Maybe... mayyyyybe twice if you are SUPER unlucky. But three? in the same year? That's a pattern.
Let's be totally honest, you just stole a vacation from three groups who wanted those slots.
Maybe you get one no-show, hey stuff happens, but after that, huge fine for any additional.
|
07/10/2024 02:04PM |
* do what airlines do and overbook, perhaps as others have mentioned they are already doing this.
* increase non-refundable deposit.
* make cancellation period 3+ days. If not cancelled and no-show, make a stiff penalty.
* offer a number of "stand by" slots, so people with more flexible schedules could take advantage of the very likely open slots. I plan most of my trips a few days before or less, cause my schedule is flexible and I care more than many do about planning trips for good weather forecast.
Exceptions would need to be made of course for weather events, closures, fire, etc.
|
07/10/2024 02:34PM |
1. If someone has 3 no-shows (without cancellation prior to 48 hours of the day of the permit) per a year, they they will be "listed" and are not allowed to reserve for the following year.
2. If they have 6 such no-shows in a year, they will not be allowed to reserve for 3 years.
3. If they have 10 such no-shows in a year, indicating that they are truly hoarding, they will be permanently banned from reserving within the BWCA.
Harsh, but it would put the kibosh on the hoarders and on multiple frivolous reservations clearing the path for those who seriously want to go.
|
07/10/2024 06:52PM |
And if it's already maxed out - at capacity - reducing no shows and late cancellations just means quotas get lowered, not more trippers.
|
07/10/2024 02:50PM |
SouthernKevlar: "How about this:
1. If someone has 3 no-shows (without cancellation prior to 48 hours of the day of the permit) per a year, they they will be "listed" and are not allowed to reserve for the following year.
2. If they have 6 such no shows in a year, they will not be allowed to reserve for 3 years.
3. If they have 10 such no shows in a year, indicating that they are truly hoarding, they will be permanently banned from reserving within the BWCA.
Harsh, but it would put the kibosh on the hoarders and on multiple frivolous reservations clearing the path for those who seriously want to go.
"
I dunno. Three no-shows in a year indicates hoarding.
I've been doing this for a lot of decades and I've never done a no show and I'm not even trying.
As has been said already. Quetico charges a fee that increases every week leading up to your trip. The closer it is to your trip, the more they charge. It is by far the most fair system I can imagine. Nobody reserving quetico permits hoards. Nobody. But Quetico is the holy land too so people reserving a permit are getting a ticket to Heaven. Not the kind of place you want to do a no-show
Tom
|
07/10/2024 03:53PM |
SouthernKevlar: "How about this:
1. If someone has 3 no-shows (without cancellation prior to 48 hours of the day of the permit) per a year, they they will be "listed" and are not allowed to reserve for the following year.
2. If they have 6 such no-shows in a year, they will not be allowed to reserve for 3 years.
3. If they have 10 such no-shows in a year, indicating that they are truly hoarding, they will be permanently banned from reserving within the BWCA.
Harsh, but it would put the kibosh on the hoarders and on multiple frivolous reservations clearing the path for those who seriously want to go.
"
They'll just reserve under a different trip leader.
Mike
|
07/10/2024 07:13PM |
uqme2: "timatkn: "What Quetico did is charge a flat fee of I believe $108. If you cancel within 4 months or less you lose that fee. Then a rolling increase in cancellation fees the closer to the date you get.
Once again, hoarding was a serious issue in Quetico in the 90’s, they took action. It sounds harsh, but what it does is “help” people only book permits that they actually intend to actually use. It eliminates the what if’s, the back up permits, and the minimizes the no shows. There is actually better access to the park now than there was in the 90’s.
Wait. What? I have no recollection of that whatsoever. Southern entries, perhaps? Enlighten me please, TimA"
Not sure which part you are unaware? Sometime in the late 90’s early 2000’s Quetico added the $100 minimum deposit and the rolling refund for camping fees due to hoarding. Depending on when you cancel you get as little as 10% of your deposit back or as much as 50%. A month or less is essentially losing a $100. Something along those lines.
If you went to Quetico prior to this change you have to remember it was nearly impossible. You would have to call as soon as they opened at 7 am exactly 5 months in advance and for me and many others you needed 2-3 alternative options or a few times needed to call the next day and try a different date since every permit was taken. I never got my first option until after the rule change…then magically all of a sudden I’ve gotten my first choice every year?
The announcement was something along the lines of
“ Over the years visitation to Quetico Park has decreased while booking a permit has become more difficult. This has been affected by a trend of increased cancellations too late for other Park users to be able to utilize. The new minimum deposit requirements and higher cancellation fees based on the timing of the cancellation will help customers find more permits available. “
Something to that effect it’s been over 20 years :)
T
|
07/11/2024 08:14PM |
I think it's more important to focus resources on making sure paddlers are well prepared before they even book a permit. I think a lot of people under estimate what they're getting themselves into which leads to poor portaging etiquette, poor campsite care, over-booking, ect. There has to be a better vetting system other than "watch this video".
|
07/11/2024 10:21PM |
billconner: "Several Ely outfitters have told me the no live bait and barbless hooks is why demand for Q permits dropped. Best I can tell there are Q permits available even at last minute."
Not saying it isn’t a factor now, but the bait ban and barbless hooks started in 2008 or 2009…well after the changes in the permit system. The change in permit availability changed well before any of fishing reg. Changes.
T
|
07/12/2024 04:08PM |
...There has to be a better vetting system other than "watch this video".
Furthermore, I entered the BWCA five times last season and I was only asked to watch the video once.
|
07/12/2024 02:33PM |
timatkn: "billconner: "Several Ely outfitters have told me the no live bait and barbless hooks is why demand for Q permits dropped. Best I can tell there are Q permits available even at last minute."
Not saying it isn’t a factor now, but the bait ban and barbless hooks started in 2008 or 2009…well after the changes in the permit system. The change in permit availability changed well before any of fishing reg. Changes.
T"
I did one or usually two Q trips every year from 1979 to 2015. All but two were northern entries starting in May, July or August. Those odd two were fly-ins to LLC in 1990 when we all had great jobs with excess vacation time and felt oh so very very rich!
I've worried about entry availability only once. I called in early July of 1998 for a mid July entry. Not a problem! Although, at the time, I did brace for the big bill for international long distance on one of my two landlines from Ma Bell.
Sorry for the hijacks but it sure is fun reminiscing sometimes. Life is seriously not that hard. I'd love to see actual numbers from 1964 or so for either side of the border.
Eh, carry on. And FWIW barbless was the best idea ever! Thank you Robin.
|
07/12/2024 04:29PM |
I agree with others that the system isn't ideal but, try my best to work within the parameters that are in place and not stress about potential abuses that may be happening. We are ALL guilty of taking advantage of certain circumstances & not always following rules/laws 100% of the time. I wouldnt want the powers that be lording over everything that I'm not doing exactly right or could do better so, I think I should extend the same courtesy. Besides, I believe learning to how to suffer (even in minor terms such as this) without complaint is how I can grow in virtue.
The overwhelming sense I've gotten the past # of years is that sitting in front of my computer in late January waiting for 9:00 a.m. (or whatever time they officially release the overnight permits???) is akin to waiting outside of some store on black Friday waiting for the doors to open so I can stampede in. Which, ironically, is precisely the type of behaviors/attitudes I go to canoe country to get away from.
So, while I realize this isn't always possible for everyone, I've tried to distance myself from that insidious process and taken more of a "Thy will not my will" approach. Usually there are permits that eventually open up for most entries if I have a little flexibility. Although, early October has become more appealing as well. :)