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10/16/2024 06:14AM |
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10/15/2024 10:00AM |
The current system is very difficult to work with if you are a person with an inconsistent work schedule. Not everyone has control over their life’s schedule, and the capriciousness of a business (or a boss) can really throw off a plan. Perhaps reserving a percentage of permits to be released on a rolling basis could solve this. As it currently is, I have to book months in advance with the thought of “I really hope this time off will be approved”. However, if permits became available a month before their time then I would actually know my schedule and be able to book with more confidence.
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10/16/2024 08:30AM |
If these are the numbers business and people have to work with, some will have to go. Maybe the Ely side can only support a few outfitters.
On a positive note, ATVS and SXSs are bring good money to the area. Maybe we need to build more trails for the offroad crew.
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10/16/2024 08:36AM |
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10/15/2024 04:51PM |
While cancellations are to some extent unavoidable, and yes they do have an impact on us as individual paddlers and our decisions about when & where we ultimately end up going, we do still end up making at least one trip each year.
Those non-issued permits (cancellations and no shows) are lost market share for the outfitters and other businesses relying on that full market to have enough business to go around.
The permit system is not only a restriction on the number of people inside the BWCAW, it is also a restriction on size of the market available to the businesses. To the extent that this system is abused, it is also a further downgrading of the potential market throughout the arrowhead region. Wonder why your favorite outfitter has gone out of business (or cut back on it's services offered)? Look no further than this issue.
Permits are the life blood of the region. Each of those non-issued permits (for whatever reason) represents the loss of hundreds/thousands of dollars in economic impact on this area. The Forest Service is the keeper of the economic keys. To the extent that the FS allows it's system to be abused, it is complicit in this economic strangulation.
Please don't use this as a reason to debate any other subject than the issue of the OP, but, to the extent that the economy of the region is unfairly restricted by these unethical practices of a few, the more the community leaders of the area are going to be looking at other economic growth opportunities. No matter the negative environmental impact those economic proposals may pose to the resource they are not being allowed to fully utilize.
This is NOT an innocuous issue or one that will have negligible impact. It is not a mere inconvenience to a few people. If you want the BWCAW to continue to be the magical place it has for so many, those that rely upon it for their livelihood must be heard and solutions found to allow the fullest possible market to travel to, spend money on, and be inspired. Surrounding economic demise will not allow the BWCAW to continue to be protected. The wolves are at the door and they smell economic blood.
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11/23/2024 09:02AM |
Cancellations of permits for the May-September quota season more than doubled in the past five years, the agency said in a release announcing an annual update to its permit and visitor report. While the number of no-shows declined in 2023, last year’s record cancellation number adds fuel to broad frustration among wilderness-related businesses, visitors and observers that people are hoarding permits.
Total visits were down 3% at 146,238. Nelson thinks permit stockpiling might have contributed and that some people opted to not take trips. She said some customers will buy up multiple permits at an entry point to keep traffic in the area low, too.
“The amount of people [going into the wilderness] is already regulated,” Nelson said. “That people think they need to take it upon themselves to regulate it more is disappointing.”
Some other findings in the report about 2023 visitors:
• 13%: The increase in visitors who traveled into the wilderness outside of quota season (October-April) in 2023 than in 2022. An early ice-out and warm autumn might have contributed, Nelson said.
• Four: The average group size during the quota season.
• 92%: The percentage of visits during the quota season.
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10/16/2024 07:10AM |
Based on the user experience by people that camp during peak periods, the quota system is too high, far too high.
If the quota system was maxed out during the summer months, over-crowding in terms of no available campsites would be overwhelming. I can speak to personal experience on several occasions where we paddled until sundown trying to find an open site. And there are many, many others who have shared that story.
The Covid era is a fine example of where the quotas were actually reached and we know what a sh$t show that was. Not bringing into account all of the shenanigans on top of that.
I will not go down the rabbit holes of "You need to find a site early in the day". Or "You need to paddle past the entry lakes in order to find your campsite and solitude". Both of which are poor excuses for over-crowding and both are not often the case for not finding a site.
The BWCA quota numbers are far too high to support the number of visitors during peak seasons. It is a dis-service for an outfitter to put people into the BWCA during peak season and expect them to have a wilderness experience when some of those campers are faced with not being able to find a site.
And this is why I say the FS allows the current system to exist. It keeps the quota numbers from being reached through cancellations. It has been proven many times over that lowering the quota allows a better user experience as shown in the permit numbers in Quetico.
There are several very profitable and very busy outfitters out of Ely and the Gunflint that are doing quite well. Let's start with Piragis, Latourelles out of Ely.
Not everyone that goes into business knows how to make a business turn a profit.
Tom
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10/16/2024 09:04AM |
tumblehome: "There is a point to be made about the quota numbers that is not mentioned in the thread.
Based on the user experience by people that camp during peak periods, the quota system is too high, far too high.
If the quota system was maxed out during the summer months, over-crowding in terms of no available campsites would be overwhelming. I can speak to personal experience on several occasions where we paddled until sundown trying to find an open site. And there are many, many others who have shared that story.
The Covid era is a fine example of where the quotas were actually reached and we know what a sh$t show that was. Not bringing into account all of the shenanigans on top of that.
I will not go down the rabbit holes of "You need to find a site early in the day". Or "You need to paddle past the entry lakes in order to find your campsite and solitude". Both of which are poor excuses for over-crowding and both are not often the case for not finding a site.
The BWCA quota numbers are far too high to support the number of visitors during peak seasons. It is a dis-service for an outfitter to put people into the BWCA during peak season and expect them to have a wilderness experience when some of those campers are faced with not being able to find a site.
And this is why I say the FS allows the current system to exist. It keeps the quota numbers from being reached through cancellations. It has been proven many times over that lowering the quota allows a better user experience as shown in the permit numbers in Quetico.
There are several very profitable and very busy outfitters out of Ely and the Gunflint that are doing quite well. Let's start with Piragis, Latourelles out of Ely.
Not everyone that goes into business knows how to make a business turn a profit.
Tom
"
Yes this is a good point. If cancellations are cracked down on, quotas would need to be lowered. And as others mentioned fewer last minute options would be available.
May be a case of "be careful what you wish for".
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10/16/2024 09:18AM |
All unused permits were canceled at least 2 weeks before the trip and I only held on to them for about a week, so I wasn't hoarding them, but it does show how the current system encourages this. I was grabbing whatever I could as they became available so I could discuss the options with the group. The $6 service charge per permit was nothing compared to ensuring that we had a good trip that worked for everyone.
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10/16/2024 11:28AM |
A1t2o: "I definitely contributed to this problem this year. I didn't plan a trip until last minute so I didn't have a permit early on in the season. I ended up reserving 3-4 permits at various dates and entry points in order to get the one I ended up using.
All unused permits were canceled at least 2 weeks before the trip and I only held on to them for about a week, so I wasn't hoarding them, but it does show how the current system encourages this. I was grabbing whatever I could as they became available so I could discuss the options with the group. The $6 service charge per permit was nothing compared to ensuring that we had a good trip that worked for everyone."
I did the same. I wanted to fit in a solo trip, but ended up canceling three permits due to work conflicts.
Mike
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10/16/2024 11:51AM |
It happens some people cancel the last second before having to pay a penalty. If you just in no hurry and cancel that last second, not thinking of others, then that is not so good.
Like I said we all have things come up in life that many are unforeseen and then cancel the last second, that is expected.
I really think we might be thinking the grass is greener on the other side and end up with something we don't like.
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12/05/2024 04:56AM |
article
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12/06/2024 07:33AM |
If ya know to book 5 permits…or ya know to wait till the last second you are good…This group on the website are experts…we aren’t the norm. We know how to work the system.
In a way we are all elitists on the subject of getting permits. It’s. Mostly fine for all of us. It’s probably the way things will remain. Just fun to talk about.
T
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12/05/2024 08:24AM |
“ Outfitters attribute the increase in cancellations to a few key reasons. Tim Barton, outfitting manager at Piragis Northwoods Company, said, “I think people go online, book their wishlist, and see how their schedule goes.” He has also noticed more short-term cancellations this year and observed that popular entry points, which were previously unavailable, now show open dates in July and August. With the pressure to secure a permit in January, people tend to cancel as the summer progresses.
Jason Zabokrtsky, founder and wilderness guide of Ely Outfitting Company, agrees. He explains that part of the issue stems from travelers being uncertain about their summer schedules. However, because of the perceived high demand and limited supply, they worry that delaying their trip date adjustments will result in all the permits being taken. He mentioned that people often book permits for several dates and then cancel the ones they no longer need. Zabokrtsky believes this trend began after the USFS reduced permits by 13% in 2022, just a week before they were set to become available. “It created a frenzy of concern among BWCAW users, who feared the permit supply was dwindling at a time when demand was increasing. This panic only drove the demand for permits even higher,” he said.”
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12/05/2024 11:05AM |
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12/06/2024 05:14AM |
RatherbeDuffing: "I have purposefully overbooked due to not knowing my summer schedule. The fact I can recoup all but ? 6 dollars of that cost is laughable. There should be a much higher cancellation fee. "
See this is directly the issue we are referring to. Please stop doing this. There are 3-5 other groups who are great planners and would love to have those permits you so haphazardly snatched up. Your indecision and lack of preparation should not be a detriment to the rest of the BWCA community, and when you do crap like that it definitely is. It's just plain selfish. It's not just "6 dollars", it's the lack of opportunity for groups that WILL use the permit. It's lost revenue for the local outfitters and restaurants that would have benefited from that groups business. If you don't know when you actually want to go, wait till the week or two before your time slot to book a permit.
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12/05/2024 12:11PM |
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12/05/2024 06:06PM |
RatherbeDuffing: "I have purposefully overbooked due to not knowing my summer schedule. The fact I can recoup all but ? 6 dollars of that cost is laughable. There should be a much higher cancellation fee. "
Is $40 much less laughable? Of course if you know you're going to loose it all whether you call and cancel or no-show, probably most will just no show, then no one can use the permit, even at last minute.
It seemed pre-pandemic, people thought it was a little crowded and a little overused. Not it's back to those levels - with lots of cancelations and no shows - so what's wrong? You want cancelled and no show permits used, increasing crowding and overuse?
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10/24/2024 12:04PM |
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10/24/2024 07:13PM |
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10/10/2024 07:56AM |
The numbers don’t work perfectly because I can’t factor in cancel/rebooks but looking at the data for our groups interest there were 20858 overnight paddle permits actually used. There were 10,245 OP permits cancelled. That’s almost a 50% cancellation rate compared to permits actually used. I know the math isn’t perfect as I am comparing used permits instead of booked permits but it is ridiculous anyway you look at it.
For no shows: There were 2337 OP no shows or an 11% no show rate for all used OP permits. More than 1 out of 10 permits just never showed up to get their permit. Think the no show penalty is just fine??? The data says you are wrong that many people book and just take the loss on cancellation fees. Almost seems intentional (sarcasm) :)
Combining no shows and cancels to actual permits used for OP: Over 60% were cancel/no shows…
If you look at motor permits it’s not any better: 3,834 motor permits were used, 1,221 failed to show or 32% of all day use motor permits took the permit fee loss rather than cancel. 1,088 day use permits were cancelled or 28%. Of the 3834 motor permits used compared to cancellations and no shows: once again 60% of permits are no shows or cancels compared to actual used permits.
I am starting to believe the conspiracy theory that the FS likes this. Either that…or it’s completely inept…
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10/10/2024 09:27AM |
Is the actual reserve system broken? It a people problem and certain people will figure out any system and abuse it.
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10/10/2024 10:43AM |
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10/10/2024 10:54AM |
Trip 1 - Canceled due to kidney stone
Trip 2 - Canceled due to Funeral
Trip 3 - Canceled due to conflicting schedules that arose
Trip 4 - We made it!!!
Most recent years I end up canceling at least one permit as it's hard to plan that far out. When I used to be able to book a trip a couple weeks prior, this wasn't an issue, but now many of the desirable permits are gone in the first few days. So you grab a few and then figure out what works.
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10/10/2024 06:59AM |
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10/10/2024 09:19AM |
timatkn: "billconner: "I have noticed the no show and late cancellation of spots in campgrounds - state parks and similar - is also rampant. Drove through a campground that was booked full but many open and unused spots. Policies that charge a cancellation fee seem to discourage cancellation and result in no shows. "
Not if the no show fee is higher, but I understand your point. Cancellation fees can be counter productive. You want to incentivize cancellation earlier not penalize.
T"
I have noticed the same thing Bill noticed - a huge number of empty spots at MN state parks during the same, despite nothing being available online, implying a high level of booked no-shows. However, MN state parks charge you the full amount upfront, and it's all lost if you don't cancel (you only lose a small booking fee if you cancel). Then again if you're pulling up you campsite with a $60,000 RV towed by an $80,000 pickup, losing a $150 fee is likely not a big deal.
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10/10/2024 11:08AM |
Speckled: "Most recent years I end up canceling at least one permit as it's hard to plan that far out. When I used to be able to book a trip a couple weeks prior, this wasn't an issue, but now many of the desirable permits are gone in the first few days. So you grab a few and then figure out what works."
The most desirable ones are gone within minutes. The last two years I had to adjust my dates even though I was in the system within seconds of it opening up. Within 10-15 minutes it was pretty much gone for the summer.
But, I was still able to get it, which is better than the old lottery. So I can't complain too much.
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10/10/2024 05:30PM |
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10/10/2024 07:03PM |
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10/10/2024 07:56PM |
eagle98mn: "I kind of wish there was an option to "switch" my entry point rather than it getting flagged as a cancellation. As an example, I claimed a Skipper EP this year, but what I really wanted was Baker. I sat on my Skipper entry, content to take that trip, throughout the summer but then got a notification that Baker opened up on my entry date. I quickly cancelled and picked up the Baker permit. Was this a "cancellation" or an abuse of the system? Not really, I just switched EPs when the location I really wanted became available. I'm guessing this happens to others to some degree throughout the summer.
To be clear, I realize there is a real issue. I just see how my own activity skews the data a bit."
I did something similar in early May. I had a permit for a larger entry lake but a couple days before the trip there was a forecast for strong winds. There was a permit available for a smaller lake area so I cancelled my original permit and reserved the new one for the same date.
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10/11/2024 09:35PM |
Pinetree: "I hate to see delayed cancellations, maybe in an area someone wants to go or time frame.
I also would hate to see 100% of the permits taken at once and used than. It would actual be very crowded up there.
Wonder percent permits in areas never issued. Use to be able to see that number by entrance."
That’s the conundrum…too many permits go unused and deny people the experience of the outdoors, but the system is not designed to have every permit utilized at 100% all the time.
T
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10/11/2024 10:38AM |
Pinetree: "Looks like a 10% cancelation rate if all permits were issued,they are not? So rate would be somewhat higher. Is that really high?This translates directly into lost revenue for the area. Not only boat, gear, lodging, but also food dining, etc...The high number of motor permits being cancelled is hard for me to figure out why? I have also heard that about an outfitter hoarding permits. It was motor permits, right? Why? They would be hurt the most. With La Tourell's running the portage, I am sure they have an idea of how many motor permits are being used.
I think more important what percent are reissued and someone took advantage of this? Than maybe impact of cancellations would not be as high.
Also, one Outfitter out of ELY has been noted to overbook every year."
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10/12/2024 11:14AM |
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10/12/2024 06:32AM |
I'm skeptical any penalty on future reservation won't withstand a court challenge nor political pressure, and simply too easy to get around.
Better to increase quota based on historical records of cancellations and no shows, just like airlines do, to get the yield that works.
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10/11/2024 10:04AM |
A slight increase and no refunds if cancelled less than 7 days before. That would allow for more rebooking.
I love the idea of being able to switch your permit to a different one if your preferred EP opens up with a small processing fee. That would remove some of the "false cancellations" from the data.
Was there info on whether motorized use has more or less issues than non-motorized? Feels like motor permits are in higher demand and I thought I remembered some stats from previous years that they had more no-shows.
I don't see a need to have the staggered permit system. I don't think people can predict their lives much better 5 months out. With the permit alert systems available now, I didn't find it very hard to come up with a decent permit even though I waited until a month before our departure. Maybe there needs to be better education around that so people are less likely to panic buy. Right now the media does all sorts of stories about how quickly all the permits get snapped up in January but they never do anything about all the people who wait and get great permits later on.
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10/11/2024 10:32AM |
But the BWCAW is ridiculously cheap and it's one factor that leads to the overbooking. A little steeper pricing, less money returned when you cancel. It's like $6 to cancel now? Ridiculous!
Also I like how the Q doesn't open up booking until 5 months before the date of the trip. I feel like trying to decide your summer vacation for a week with 3-8 other people by January 20th is an impossible task and that's why people over book as well. A smaller window would help. Also I hate how in one day EVERYONE is booking. IF you roll the bookign process it's spread out, no website crashing or over load.
T
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10/11/2024 02:58PM |
Probably wouldn't solve the immediate issue completely but it would help while also helping another critical problem (enforcement)
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10/11/2024 04:24PM |
I also would hate to see 100% of the permits taken at once and used than. It would actual be very crowded up there.
Wonder percent permits in areas never issued. Use to be able to see that number by entrance.
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10/11/2024 04:22PM |
Findian: "Pinetree: "Looks like a 10% cancelation rate if all permits were issued,they are not? So rate would be somewhat higher. Is that really high?This translates directly into lost revenue for the area. Not only boat, gear, lodging, but also food dining, etc...The high number of motor permits being cancelled is hard for me to figure out why? I have also heard that about an outfitter hoarding permits. It was motor permits, right? Why? They would be hurt the most. With La Tourell's running the portage, I am sure they have an idea of how many motor permits are being used."
I think more important what percent are reissued and someone took advantage of this? Than maybe impact of cancellations would not be as high.
Also, one Outfitter out of ELY has been noted to overbook every year."
Yes La Tourell is the one over booking motor permits and has the highest cancellation rate in the BWCA
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10/12/2024 02:57AM |
To be effective the Rec.gov system needs to be robust enough to not allow duplicate accounts for an individual and able to implement the delayed access idea and probably a few other things I haven’t thought of.
Just an idea to use a different form of currency that might be more equitable. Not everyone can afford to pay more $ for permits and there are others where monetary fines won’t dissuade them from bad behavior. Maybe sending bad actors to the back of the reservation line for a year will have an impact.
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10/11/2024 04:43PM |
Pinetree: "Findian: "Pinetree: "Looks like a 10% cancelation rate if all permits were issued,they are not? So rate would be somewhat higher. Is that really high?This translates directly into lost revenue for the area. Not only boat, gear, lodging, but also food dining, etc...The high number of motor permits being cancelled is hard for me to figure out why? I have also heard that about an outfitter hoarding permits. It was motor permits, right? Why? They would be hurt the most. With La Tourell's running the portage, I am sure they have an idea of how many motor permits are being used."
I think more important what percent are reissued and someone took advantage of this? Than maybe impact of cancellations would not be as high.
Also, one Outfitter out of ELY has been noted to overbook every year."
Yes La Tourell is the one over booking motor permits and has the highest cancellation rate in the BWCA"
Where did you get this info? Please give me a link. How would this help LaTourell's?Why would LaTourell's do this?
Or is it hear say? I am skeptical because groups and people like Kevin Proescholdt and wilderness watch have used every trick in the book to get rid of motors and Prairie Portage. And their/his target have been LaTourell's. Remember "minnow gate"? When the feds busted into a few Ely businesses with swat teams over some minnows. They bust open computers and took hard drives trying to find anything to charge La Tourell's with. It was all BS and a witch hunt. No one ever charge with even jaywalking. Yet not one penny of restitution for all the damage caused by the guys with the guns.
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10/12/2024 02:35PM |
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10/15/2024 10:11PM |
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10/15/2024 07:14PM |
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10/13/2024 04:23PM |
Consider how fortunate it feels to "snag" an entry permit late in the summer for a trip that would never have been planned in January. This lucky occurrence is only possible because someone reserved then cancelled this reservation. The liberal cancellation policy is effectively the equivalent of a time-delay permit release for those most willing to continue to pursue a permit after they are all apparently reserved.
I have been lucky to get permits in January. I have cancelled permits in September I could not use, Most preciously, I have obtained surprise, late summer permits that resulted in my most enjoyable trips.
The current system isn't broken: Feature not a bug
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10/16/2024 08:33AM |
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10/16/2024 06:24PM |
Airplanes sell more seats than they have based on no shoes and cancellations. Colleges admit more students than they can handle. I'm sure there are other examples of estimating yields.
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10/16/2024 05:04PM |
MikeinMpls: "A1t2o: "I definitely contributed to this problem this year. I didn't plan a trip until last minute so I didn't have a permit early on in the season. I ended up reserving 3-4 permits at various dates and entry points in order to get the one I ended up using.
All unused permits were canceled at least 2 weeks before the trip and I only held on to them for about a week, so I wasn't hoarding them, but it does show how the current system encourages this. I was grabbing whatever I could as they became available so I could discuss the options with the group. The $6 service charge per permit was nothing compared to ensuring that we had a good trip that worked for everyone."
I did the same. I wanted to fit in a solo trip, but ended up canceling three permits due to work conflicts.
Mike"
I mean you are doing what the system allows...I don't know if I'd say that's contributing to the problem. Seems more like a unique circumstance.
Both of you stated one of the issues though...why not reserve a bunch of permits, the cost to cancel is so cheap (paraphrasing)...that's why so many people reserve multiple permits in January knowing they will never use them all. For a lot of people...especially less experienced if they don't get that permit in January. They are done and think they can't get in...the people on this site are the outliers we are not the norm LOL.
The big issue isn't the few people reserving for a week and then changing...it's the people who reserve all year and dump them days before. I don't know if we have stats on that, but it's what going to prevent some people from doing a trip or ever going to the BWCAW. It's great for me...I know the secret handshake to get in the back door...I know I will get a permit. But I've never been proponent of that kind of system of exclusion.
T
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10/17/2024 06:05PM |
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10/18/2024 06:00AM |
Twice $16 + $6 won't disuade many.
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10/17/2024 07:46AM |
It’s just if you read the posts even in this thread…$6 cancellation fee is nothing for most people. It encourages overbooking. To be honest the current system encourages overbooking to get the permit you want while you work with your group to pick a date/entry. Obviously for some…in a significantly increasing number are just booking permits and taking the $50 hit is nothing as the no shows are increasing as well.
The FS has tried. If you are a solo paddler they now require you to pay for at least two people initially and then get refunded at check in…that’s because the most often no shows booked as solos to reduce the financial hit. Since they never planned to enter anyway… but despite that…the no shows increase. They’ve publicly said they know who the chronic no shows and will take action (what that means I have no idea at this point)…not sure I believe it.
There are some easy things they can do to make the problem less…but I am starting to believe Tumblehome…do they care? Do they like it? I mean this has been an issue since the late 90’s, it's gotten worse and the small changes haven't helped…
T
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10/18/2024 07:15AM |
Chieflonewatie: "Let it go they won’t change it. I works you can always get a permit at some entry point."
You are correct. For me the system is just fine. I know the ins/outs and as you state you can get a permit later. I would say the same for the majority of people on this website that is the case. BUT this website is a small subset with experience we aren’t the normal users and especially don’t represent those trying to go for the first time. I was taught to think of others and I can tell you all the time I hear potential new users, young people, families get discouraged from going due to the system. I just have a an issue with that, I feel bad for them. I also get why when they are bidding for vacation at work they can’t just trust one of us old guys telling them “it’s fine you can always get a permit later”…the future of the BWCAW is getting youth involved and loving it…
T
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10/17/2024 01:36PM |
timatkn: "MikeinMpls: "A1t2o: "I definitely contributed to this problem this year. I didn't plan a trip until last minute so I didn't have a permit early on in the season. I ended up reserving 3-4 permits at various dates and entry points in order to get the one I ended up using.
All unused permits were canceled at least 2 weeks before the trip and I only held on to them for about a week, so I wasn't hoarding them, but it does show how the current system encourages this. I was grabbing whatever I could as they became available so I could discuss the options with the group. The $6 service charge per permit was nothing compared to ensuring that we had a good trip that worked for everyone."
I did the same. I wanted to fit in a solo trip, but ended up canceling three permits due to work conflicts.
Mike"
I mean you are doing what the system allows...I don't know if I'd say that's contributing to the problem. Seems more like a unique circumstance.
Both of you stated one of the issues though...why not reserve a bunch of permits, the cost to cancel is so cheap (paraphrasing)...that's why so many people reserve multiple permits in January knowing they will never use them all. For a lot of people...especially less experienced if they don't get that permit in January. They are done and think they can't get in...the people on this site are the outliers we are not the norm LOL.
The big issue isn't the few people reserving for a week and then changing...it's the people who reserve all year and dump them days before. I don't know if we have stats on that, but it's what going to prevent some people from doing a trip or ever going to the BWCAW. It's great for me...I know the secret handshake to get in the back door...I know I will get a permit. But I've never been proponent of that kind of system of exclusion.
T"
I think I am contributing to the problem on a very limited scale. I never held three permits at the same time. I got one in January for June, but canceled it in April when I knew I couldn't use it. I then snagged another for July, and canceled it a month out. I then got another for August, and did the same thing when it became obivous that I would be unable to use it.
Upon reflection, perhaps I'm doing things the right way. I cancel immediately when I know I cannot use the permit.
Mike
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10/17/2024 02:43PM |
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10/17/2024 10:41PM |
billconner: "If they stopped refunding the fee on cancellations, I fear it would only increase no shows. I'd prefer the last minute cancellation, making the permit available, than a no show."
Yes, under the current system I agree. I would make the initial fee more and do like Quetico where the closer to the date of entry the higher the cancellation fee.
Let’s face it…if someone waits until 2 days before the date of entry (which is the current cutoff) almost none of those permits are being used. It’s just too little notice for 99% of the BWCAW users to ever be able to take advantage of…It’s essentially a no show and should be treated as such. They are just paying 6 bucks to what ends up being a no show statistically speaking. Make them pay…
If it happens to me due to some issue…so be it. If I can’t afford the cancellation fee then maybe I should just do last second trips since the permits are always available. I just might not get my preferred entry. Let’s also be honest on expenses the cheapest thing on a BWCAW trip is the permit. I spend more on gas to get there than the permit. If I have to take a hit on the permit I still save money and that is across the board for anyone that has a last second cancel.
T
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10/17/2024 11:34PM |
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10/18/2024 10:15AM |
I have cancelled an overnight motor basswood permit every year the last 3 years. It’s the first permit I book at 9am on permit day every single year, because I know they will all be gone by 9:05. One of these years the stars will align and I’ll be able to take that trip and it will be great. But it’s hard to know in January what September is going to look like. I always try to cancel at least 3-4 weeks in advance once I realize there will be conflicts, and I feel like I’m just giving a gift to someone else at that point.
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10/24/2024 10:43AM |
To clarify my use of panic its those who get multiple permits just in case while intending to use only one (maybe), and those groups who buy up a lot of permits around a date to have the lake to themselves. Not those who get multiple permits with the intent to use them, but life happens, and you need to cancel them.
My 2cent solution is move to a rolling 9 or 12 month availability. It removes the focus from the singular point in time for the ~30k permits, which in turn in theory would reduce the panic purchasing.
Reduce the spot demand, and the perception of scarcity it creates.
MNDNR used to use a rolling 12 month reservation and from my perspective it worked quite well, a while back they dropped it to a rolling 120 days for most reservable sites, and I don't think it works as well.
TP is an example of this, on a daily basis you don't think about getting another package, but even as recently as the port strike people were buying extra packages of TP (Yes I know all U.S. TP consumption is produced in the U.S.) because they has a perception of scarcity.
But alas Americans (big paint brush) love panic buying, and we used to celebrate it once a year (Black Friday) and now celebrate it 4 or 5 times a year (multiple Amazon prime days, cyber Monday, small business Saturday) So why not BWCAW permit day. Actually I think BWCAW permit day should be a federal holiday. (Lots of sarcasm in this paragraph, with a touch of sadness)
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10/25/2024 07:08AM |
egknuti: "Let’s not forget that many permits were canceled due to the significant amount of rain we received in June. Many entry points were closed for a week or more. Also the last few years entry points were closed due to fire restrictions. Was this considered in the total cancellations? "
Anytime a permit is cancelled by the system for fire, road closure, flooding etc…they and previous cancellations are not included in the cancellation statistics. Which makes sense. Obviously the fails that would have happened aren’t included either, so if anything it makes the no show fails look better.
T
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10/25/2024 12:39PM |
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10/30/2024 03:24PM |
I cancelled a permit this year three months early because I changed my mind on a route.
No shows are probably not usually no shows. They are other team members trying to protect numbers of people during their trip.
I would be for doubling the entry fees, charging for late cancellations and even more for no shows. Also double the non-refundable portion to $12. Fees haven't increased in years. It's time. I also like the staggered entry date idea, five months before your trip.
But what do I know?! Honestly, I've only had two less-than-desirable trips in the BW (due to people and weather), and I've always gotten the EP I desire. And since 1991, I've never once been stranded without a campsite.
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10/10/2024 08:18AM |
billconner: "I have noticed the no show and late cancellation of spots in campgrounds - state parks and similar - is also rampant. Drove through a campground that was booked full but many open and unused spots. Policies that charge a cancellation fee seem to discourage cancellation and result in no shows. "
Not if the no show fee is higher, but I understand your point. Cancellation fees can be counter productive. You want to incentivize cancellation earlier not penalize.
T
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12/05/2024 11:56PM |
billconner: "RatherbeDuffing: "I have purposefully overbooked due to not knowing my summer schedule. The fact I can recoup all but ? 6 dollars of that cost is laughable. There should be a much higher cancellation fee. "
Is $40 much less laughable? "
Heck ya! $40 is almost 700% more money! I don’t know what job some of you have but I don’t throw my money away.
If it costs more…people won’t book 5 permits when they know they will only use 1…That’s the biggest issue here…
Are you saying someone now booking 5 permits and losing $24 (goes on one trip) will suddenly be okay losing $160 to $216? Who is that no big deal too? What do you all do for a living you can throw away a couple hundy?
T
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12/06/2024 06:27AM |
timatkn: "billconner: "RatherbeDuffing: "I have purposefully overbooked due to not knowing my summer schedule. The fact I can recoup all but ? 6 dollars of that cost is laughable. There should be a much higher cancellation fee. "
Is $40 much less laughable? "
Heck ya! $40 is almost 700% more money! I don’t know what job some of you have but I don’t throw my money away.
If it costs more…people won’t book 5 permits when they know they will only use 1…That’s the biggest issue here…
Are you saying someone now booking 5 permits and losing $24 (goes on one trip) will suddenly be okay losing $160 to $216? Who is that no big deal too? What do you all do for a living you can throw away a couple hundy?
T"
I'd never make a res that I wasn't positive I'd make, my death not withstanding. But it seems to some an extra $100-200 on a vacation is fine. For some they spend less while tripping than everyday. To others who have to fly in and full outfit, a couple hundred is insignificant.
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12/06/2024 06:36AM |
Deeznuts: "RatherbeDuffing: "I have purposefully overbooked due to not knowing my summer schedule. The fact I can recoup all but ? 6 dollars of that cost is laughable. There should be a much higher cancellation fee. "
See this is directly the issue we are referring to. Please stop doing this. There are 3-5 other groups who are great planners and would love to have those permits you so haphazardly snatched up. Your indecision and lack of preparation should not be a detriment to the rest of the BWCA community, and when you do crap like that it definitely is. It's just plain selfish. It's not just "6 dollars", it's the lack of opportunity for groups that WILL use the permit. It's lost revenue for the local outfitters and restaurants that would have benefited from that groups business. If you don't know when you actually want to go, wait till the week or two before your time slot to book a permit. "
So based on those numbers, in quota season there were some 20,000 permits used. Do you really think it would be good if another 10,000 were used? When the pandemic surge raised it to 24,000, everyone complained and panicked, and the USFS reduced quota numbers. Do you really want a fifty percent use increase?
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10/10/2024 12:15AM |
It’s worse…yes…but it’s the same issue for many years, and I agree the reservation system encourages it. Not intentionally, but it does…
Quetico (who had a way worse issue) addressed this in the late 90’s and it’s been effective. I have little confidence of change…just adapt..realize everyone overbooks and plan on getting the trip you want last minute.
T
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10/09/2024 12:52PM |
Maybe someone can tell me how many were actually picked up by someone else. If it's most of them, maybe the problem really isn't that bad.
Also, first month of reservations allowed to book only two permits.
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10/09/2024 01:00PM |
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10/09/2024 11:10AM |
3,834 no shows - (people didn't cancel and didn't use the permit).
The article mentions a couple of ways to fix things.
The MN State park system has a similar problem as well.
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10/09/2024 02:27PM |
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10/09/2024 05:04PM |
YaMarVa: "How many were issued? "
The article has a link to the data - you can answer your own question.
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10/09/2024 05:51PM |
Soledad: "YaMarVa: "How many were issued? "
The article has a link to the data- you can answer your own question."
Thanks Debby.
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10/09/2024 05:54PM |
Findian: "YaMarVa: "How many were issued? ""
Thanks for an actual response. So about 1/4 of all permits go unused, I would not have guessed that.
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10/10/2024 09:50AM |
To be clear, I realize there is a real issue. I just see how my own activity skews the data a bit.
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10/09/2024 06:07PM |
I think more important what percent are reissued and someone took advantage of this? Than maybe impact of cancellations would not be as high.
Also, one Outfitter out of ELY has been noted to overbook every year.
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10/09/2024 02:15PM |
Pinetree: "Time for a limit on how many permits can have reserved at one time. Also $20.00 for a canceled permit and maybe a little more if not canceled at least five days before the permit is issued.
Maybe someone can tell me how many were actually picked up by someone else. If it's most of them, maybe the problem really isn't that bad.
Also, first month of reservations allowed to book only two permits."
This wouldn't address this issue though - 5 people could book 10 separate permits and only use one.
I will admit I don't have a perfect answer. I don't really like the idea of increasing the financial burden, which creates additional barriers for folks. A penalty for an unused, uncancelled permit would be OK though.
I do think rolling reservation openings is a decent idea. Planning August trips for Feb 1 is tricky for some of us.
I do wonder how much of an issue this actually is. There are approximately 37,700 overnight paddle permits during the quota season. Now we all know early May and late Sept permits aren't going to see a ton of use, and the EPs are far from equal (but then again oddballs like Bog Lake have few permits). The USFS data says 20,800 overnight paddle permits were used in 2023, but also says only 2,300 overnight paddle permits were no shows. This seems to imply to me that no-show permits aren't that big a deal, and while cancellations aren't great, they're often being done in time to re-use the permit.
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10/09/2024 05:44PM |
YaMarVa: "How many were issued? "
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10/09/2024 06:05PM |
YaMarVa: "Findian: "YaMarVa: "How many were issued? "
Thanks for an actual response. So about 1/4 of all permits go unused, I would not have guessed that. "
Did you think môre or fewer would be used? I traditionally have not planned and find many permits available at last minute.
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10/12/2024 08:52AM |
No one should be able the first month reserve more than 2 permits or something like.
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10/12/2024 07:56AM |
billconner: "The problem with no refund for late cancellations is that it just encourages more no shows.
I'm skeptical any penalty on future reservation won't withstand a court challenge nor political pressure, and simply too easy to get around.
Better to increase quota based on historical records of cancellations and no shows, just like airlines do, to get the yield that works."
I read somewhere for rafting permits out west, if it’s a no show, you’re out 2 years before you can apply again for the lottery.
If they made the rule, not sure why the court wouldn’t uphold it.
Did a single night stay at Scenic state park boat in site. I reserved the last one available. I had the lake to myself that night and was stuck in the less desirable one- though I have zero complaints, it ended up being a great site for the evening.
I agree with a no show penalty- but the other problem is actually figuring out if they were a no show. Most places you don’t need to check in or check out and the ranger wasn’t taking the boat out to see if the boat in campsites were used.
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10/12/2024 01:17PM |
minnmike: "I have never no showed or canceled a permit, and I feel like people take advantage of the cheap"
Me neither. I take my permit opportunities far more serious and with care than some others. The system is set-up to fail and it encourages the unruly behavior of permit takers.
I’ve said it before, I feel the USFS is satisfied with the system as it keeps the quota low without having to actually lower the quota. And for that, it has been quite successful.
The only way to stop the behavior is in the pocket book. Nothing else will stop it.
Tom
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11/09/2024 09:30AM |
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10/09/2024 07:37PM |
billconner: "YaMarVa: "Findian: "YaMarVa: "How many were issued? "
Thanks for an actual response. So about 1/4 of all permits go unused, I would not have guessed that. "
Did you think môre or fewer would be used? I traditionally have not planned and find many permits available at last minute."
Fewer. I generally don’t have a problem getting last minute permits, this year I did though.