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11/16/2024 11:25AM |
This is true, however, there is some nuance, .... wolves in MN have widely varying territory sizes, ranging from 7.5 square miles to over 214 square miles. Why wolves have such variation in territory size within a same ecosystem comes down to economics. Wolves balance the costs and benefits, and the benefits, as mentioned, are sole access to prey in their area. The costs are continually defending the territory from other wolves; so, to balance this, wolves choose the smallest suitable territory possible -- with suitability being one with enough prey for the pack to survive.
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11/20/2024 09:21AM |
keth0601: "So wolf trapping increases in 2023 and in 2024 I've seen better deer numbers in Northern MN than last year. I wonder if there's a connection there? "
No connection at all, most of the wolf trapping was done where cattle are present. Unless you hunted right next to where trapping was done, also the number trapped is really a insignificant number to really change the statewide population. Probably half wolf's trapped would of died naturally in one year anyway.
Have the wolves made a difference in deer populations, yes they definitely have reduced deer numbers.
Yes you still have to have habitat for deer and modest winters. Everyone wants to put the outcome on one event. Nature doesn't work that way. It is often cumulative
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11/20/2024 09:21AM |
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11/20/2024 09:36AM |
Pinetree: "keth0601: "So wolf trapping increases in 2023 and in 2024 I've seen better deer numbers in Northern MN than last year. I wonder if there's a connection there? "
No connection at all, most of the wolf trapping was done where cattle are present. Unless you hunted right next to where trapping was done, also the number trapped is really a insignificant number to really change the statewide population. Probably half wolf's trapped would of died naturally in one year anyway.
Have the wolves made a difference in deer populations, yes they definitely have reduced deer numbers.
Yes you still have to have habitat for deer and modest winters. Everyone wants to put the outcome on one event. Nature doesn't work that way. It is often cumulative"
It was more of a rhetorical question. I asked knowing that they are in fact related in this case. One of the farmers close to where we hunt had wolves trapped over the last year and we're pretty much instantly seeing deer come back and no longer see wolf tracks everywhere, and the entrail piles don't disappear overnight this year like they were before. It's the second time he's had them trapped and we saw the same effects the last time as well.
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11/20/2024 10:50AM |
Thanks for the follow-up on your question.
Here is a very good study of effect of wolves-deer exactly where I use to hunt. The area use to be number 1 in the state of deer harvested/sq. mile pre wolf, now with wolves present it is ranked 58th. The change was so stark or real.
I will also say there was a additive effect of overcutting of timber-especially mature acorn producing oaks, now a bamboo forest of aspen and semi sterile area. When one element of survival-here being habitat, other elements-be it wolf will than have a larger impact.
Mn DNR winter wolf-radio collared deer study
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11/15/2024 04:40AM |
chessie: "An interesting thought exercise: Bald Eagles have made a tremendous population comeback in MN. They truly are an Endangered Species Act success story [this is all the more noteworthy given that there are estimates that 2/3 of the N.A. bird population maybe looking at extinction due to climate change]. If memory serves, Bald Eagles was delisted in MN about a decade ago. Why do we not have a Bald Eagle hunting season? The meat is reportedly low fat, high protein, and not unlike the dark meat of chicken, though perhaps 'gamier' (like duck). Bald Eagles are predatory (though certainly do consume carrion). They have been known to take domestic cats and small dogs. Some farmers/ranchers report high levels of depredation on sheep and goats (lambs and kids). Bald Eagles in MN have exceeded population recovery goals and expanded their nesting range beyond expectations - branching out into areas not inhabited for over a century. I'm not saying I'm advocating for such, but this was a good mental exercise I engaged in when the question was posed at the aforementioned symposium. "
The eagles are another undermanaged deal… they are a ruthless predator… maybe the habitual thing comes in effect. I think this is the first year in a long time we’ve had a pair of baby loons make it due to eagles. Ducks and geese lose most of there hatches up north as well. At least in my neck of the woods… I’m not against wolves… or eagles. But there really is a time they could come off the endangered list. As far as trapping… we’ll, let’s just say you may as well euthanize them. Unless they’ve changed. I’ve seen notices on portages saying there are baited traps near and to leash your dogs so they don’t end up in a trap. Guaranteed broken foot or leg…
Now we have turkeys making their way north… they can multiply faster then our pesty rodents…
On the Eagle thing… a few years back sitting at neighbor Joan’s we were watching a loon with a baby on her back right by Joan’s dock while having coffee. Then out of no where an eagle dove down and nailed both the baby and parent. I opened the slider door and yelled and the Eagle took off with the baby. A week or so later the adult loon carcass washed up on shore…
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11/15/2024 07:48AM |
nctry: "chessie: "An interesting thought exercise: Bald Eagles have made a tremendous population comeback in MN. They truly are an Endangered Species Act success story [this is all the more noteworthy given that there are estimates that 2/3 of the N.A. bird population maybe looking at extinction due to climate change]. If memory serves, Bald Eagles was delisted in MN about a decade ago. Why do we not have a Bald Eagle hunting season? The meat is reportedly low fat, high protein, and not unlike the dark meat of chicken, though perhaps 'gamier' (like duck). Bald Eagles are predatory (though certainly do consume carrion). They have been known to take domestic cats and small dogs. Some farmers/ranchers report high levels of depredation on sheep and goats (lambs and kids). Bald Eagles in MN have exceeded population recovery goals and expanded their nesting range beyond expectations - branching out into areas not inhabited for over a century. I'm not saying I'm advocating for such, but this was a good mental exercise I engaged in when the question was posed at the aforementioned symposium. "
The eagles are another undermanaged deal… they are a ruthless predator… maybe the habitual thing comes in effect. I think this is the first year in a long time we’ve had a pair of baby loons make it due to eagles. Ducks and geese lose most of there hatches up north as well. At least in my neck of the woods… I’m not against wolves… or eagles. But there really is a time they could come off the endangered list. As far as trapping… we’ll, let’s just say you may as well euthanize them. Unless they’ve changed. I’ve seen notices on portages saying there are baited traps near and to leash your dogs so they don’t end up in a trap. Guaranteed broken foot or leg…
Now we have turkeys making their way north… they can multiply faster then our pesty rodents…
On the Eagle thing… a few years back sitting at neighbor Joan’s we were watching a loon with a baby on her back right by Joan’s dock while having coffee. Then out of no where an eagle dove down and nailed both the baby and parent. I opened the slider door and yelled and the Eagle took off with the baby. A week or so later the adult loon carcass washed up on shore…"
I seen on one lake a loon kill a mallard, than a eagle came and killed a young loon. It is a tough world out there.
I think snapping turtles are also hard on loons,seen them right up in the loons nest before.
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11/15/2024 01:05PM |
chessie: "An interesting thought exercise: Bald Eagles have made a tremendous population comeback in MN. They truly are an Endangered Species Act success story [this is all the more noteworthy given that there are estimates that 2/3 of the N.A. bird population maybe looking at extinction due to climate change]. If memory serves, Bald Eagles was delisted in MN about a decade ago. Why do we not have a Bald Eagle hunting season? The meat is reportedly low fat, high protein, and not unlike the dark meat of chicken, though perhaps 'gamier' (like duck). Bald Eagles are predatory (though certainly do consume carrion). They have been known to take domestic cats and small dogs. Some farmers/ranchers report high levels of depredation on sheep and goats (lambs and kids). Bald Eagles in MN have exceeded population recovery goals and expanded their nesting range beyond expectations - branching out into areas not inhabited for over a century. I'm not saying I'm advocating for such, but this was a good mental exercise I engaged in when the question was posed at the aforementioned symposium. "
They taste terrible...
Seriously though...I am not sure except their is a Hunting ban on all Raptors. Eagles, Owls, Hawks. For Bald Eagles I think it is still a Federal crime to even have a feather unless you are a Native. I don't know the argument against it is though. I wouldn't hunt one though. I wouldn't personally hunt a wolf either.
It is an apples to oranges argument. I am okay advocating to not hunt Wolves--argue away if someone feels that way--what I am upset about is a judge interfered to protect them and keep them managed by the Federal Government for an extra 20+ years or so to artificially stop hunting. During that time I am told other species went extinct (by a Fish and Wildlife researcher who studies and loves wolves) partially due to lack of funding due to this interference. They only get so much money, keeping an animal on the endangered species pulls money and resources from other species. Every action has consequences...the ends don't justify the means in this case.
T
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11/15/2024 01:20PM |
nctry: "chessie: "An interesting thought exercise: Bald Eagles have made a tremendous population comeback in MN. They truly are an Endangered Species Act success story [this is all the more noteworthy given that there are estimates that 2/3 of the N.A. bird population maybe looking at extinction due to climate change]. If memory serves, Bald Eagles was delisted in MN about a decade ago. Why do we not have a Bald Eagle hunting season? The meat is reportedly low fat, high protein, and not unlike the dark meat of chicken, though perhaps 'gamier' (like duck). Bald Eagles are predatory (though certainly do consume carrion). They have been known to take domestic cats and small dogs. Some farmers/ranchers report high levels of depredation on sheep and goats (lambs and kids). Bald Eagles in MN have exceeded population recovery goals and expanded their nesting range beyond expectations - branching out into areas not inhabited for over a century. I'm not saying I'm advocating for such, but this was a good mental exercise I engaged in when the question was posed at the aforementioned symposium. "
. As far as trapping… we’ll, let’s just say you may as well euthanize them. Unless they’ve changed. I’ve seen notices on portages saying there are baited traps near and to leash your dogs so they don’t end up in a trap. Guaranteed broken foot or leg…
"
I trapped as a youth for Coyotes and Fox. Never saw a broken leg. Caught my favorite barn cat so many times it was embarrassing...thought she was smarter. Anyway a boken leg was rare. A broken leg is more likey to result in the injured animal getting away so foothold traps aren't designed like they used to be--the goal is minimize damage. The wolves are killed because it isn't practical to relocate them and it would be too expensive. Don't get me wrong, I'd still like to avoid my dog getting stuck in one. We are supposed to leash our dogs on portages all the time now anyways--came out when they changed the food storage rules.
T
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11/15/2024 02:34PM |
T
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11/15/2024 02:38PM |
timatkn:
Seriously though...I am not sure except their is a Hunting ban on all Raptors. Eagles, Owls, Hawks. For Bald Eagles I think it is still a Federal crime to even have a feather unless you are a Native.
T"
Bald and Golden Eagle Protection Act prohibits hunting them.
Bald and Golden Eagle Protection Act.
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11/16/2024 06:10PM |
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11/15/2024 01:21PM |
Agree, endangered species act is a great act but should be managed scientifically. Wolves in Minnesota have a population equal or greater than the last 120 years.
Use the act as it was meant. IT is a great act that should be around forever, but don't abuse it. It makes some not put species on it that should be on it.
Yes, I think there should be a wolf season if you believe us humans should be able to be part of the ecosystem and have a decent deer and moose population. Manage it rationally. As far back as 1970 before the endangered species act, I advocated for their protection, now I advocate for a season.
Yes if you oppose a season, don't do it using the endangered species act.
Wolves set up territories for one reason, they know there is only so much prey to go around, that is why they kill other wolves.
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11/16/2024 06:33PM |
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11/10/2024 03:09PM |
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11/10/2024 10:27PM |
Ausable: "How are wolves trapped and what is done with them?"
wolves trapped were considered nuisance animals and almost always are killed.
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11/11/2024 07:13AM |
Findian: "Chessie, maybe the data should say trapped and shot? Or was it 248 trapped and more shot. How many moved and how much does that cost? "
I think zero are moved to a different area.
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11/10/2024 03:02PM |
That money would/could have been used to manage other species of plants or animals that are worse off than wolves, some that might of gone extinct during this time.
This is what happens when Judges/politics and feelings creep into Wildlife management instead of science.
T
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11/11/2024 03:58PM |
Wonder is there a site on the summary of the symposium?
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11/10/2024 03:17PM |
Findian: "Chessie, maybe the data should say trapped and shot? Or was it 248 trapped and more shot. How many moved and how much does that cost? "
The 2022 142 is the number of wolves killed by the Federal government in MN, not necessarily trapped. I assume the other numbers represent the same.
T
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11/10/2024 10:29PM |
timatkn: "Food for thought, since the wolves in MN reached their designated number to be considered recovered in 2019 it has cost Taxpayers approximately $8-9 million to continue to Manage wolves. (Continued study, protection, depredation reimbursement, wolf removal etc…)Its time they been recovered for 2 decades, the goal was around 1300 wolves, now
That money would/could have been used to manage other species of plants or animals that are worse off than wolves, some that might of gone extinct during this time.
This is what happens when Judges/politics and feelings creep into Wildlife management instead of science.
T"
around 2600 plus. Use the endangered species act correct, yes delist.
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11/11/2024 03:38PM |
Pinetree: "Findian: "Chessie, maybe the data should say trapped and shot? Or was it 248 trapped and more shot. How many moved and how much does that cost? "
I think zero are moved to a different area. "
I agree. I did not hear anyone at the symposium mention relocation.
Also, in response to another comment, most states/provinces/entities are moving away from an arbitrary target number/population goal as part of their management plans.
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11/11/2024 05:59PM |
LindenTree: "Pinetree: "Dave Mech is the best, remember him as a rookie working in Ely the late 1960's,a few years ahead of Lynn Rogers the bear man.
Wonder is there a site on the summary of the symposium?"
Can't answer your question PT but it was good to look him up again.
Dave Mech WIki "
I have about half a dozen books of his.
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11/12/2024 07:58AM |
Pinetree: "Findian: "Chessie, maybe the data should say trapped and shot? Or was it 248 trapped and more shot. How many moved and how much does that cost? "
I think zero are moved to a different area. "
This is correct. USDA only has a couple of (very hard working) people doing this. They don’t have the resources or the equipment to capture, keep, feed, transport and then release wild predators.
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11/13/2024 02:21PM |
Although the baseline recovery for wolves in Minnesota was set at 1600, there is plenty of room for them and the higher numbers we have had for decades are not unreasonable. If any type of public wolf hunt is again permitted, it should be limited to the primary moose range, as well as agricultural areas where livestock losses from wolves are a regular thing.
Wolves in Minnesota haven't really been threatened in nearly 50 years, and our population makes up 40 percent of all wolves in the Lower 48 States. Cool animals.
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11/13/2024 07:04PM |
timatkn: "MN DNR, U.S. Fish and Wildlife both promoted delisting for 20 years. Yes it is a court injunction that stopped it. Whatever your opinion is on management, it is wrong to use one of the greatest pieces of legislation ever passed. The Endangered Species Act to protect a species that is not endangered. To misuse it makes it harder to put new species on it because the threat it will never come off and will impact people in many ways.WapsiBanks00: "Is that 8-9 mil just from Minnesota taxpayers? I live in Iowa so maybe it's not impacting me - just curious."
It is a Federal Department so yes everyone is affected equally including Iowa Residents. The MN DNR and Fish and wildlife service would like to turn it over to the state for management. In MN this is not really a political topic Democrats have advocated for this as well as Republicans. It's an issue most agree on. It's cheaper, it's better for other species, better for the wolves. But special interests groups just need to find one sympathetic judge to stop it... I am probably being too simplistic but ya get the idea.
T"
Use it Scientifically as it was intended.
The wolf is very common as far south as Little Falls in established packs.
A side note: I have seen these Federal trappers work and they are very efficient, it seems wolves are pretty easy to trap once they get into livestock etc.
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11/10/2024 06:09AM |
2023: 248 wolves were trapped by federal officials, a record number.
2022: 142 wolves were trapped
2021: 152 wolves were trapped
2020: 221 wolves were trapped
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11/10/2024 11:49AM |
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11/10/2024 12:09PM |
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11/10/2024 01:34PM |
Ausable: "How are wolves trapped and what is done with them?"
Wolves engaged in livestock depredation are generally dispatched (killed). Sometimes non-lethal deterrents are attempted beforehand (motion activated lights, barriers, alarms) - and some ranches/farms have good success with this.
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11/15/2024 10:17AM |
chessie" Why do we not have a Bald Eagle hunting season? The meat is reportedly low fat, high protein, and not unlike the dark meat of chicken, though perhaps 'gamier' (like duck). "
IMO, Trumpeter Swans will be the next bird that is allowed to be hunted in areas of MN. When I worked for the US Fish and Wildlife Service we had to note instances of crop depredation in NW MN from Trumpeter Swans. Farmers are not a fan of them chewing down their new wheat and corn shoots, similar to geese.
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11/14/2024 07:07PM |
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11/11/2024 04:48PM |
Pinetree: "Dave Mech is the best, remember him as a rookie working in Ely the late 1960's,a few years ahead of Lynn Rogers the bear man.
Wonder is there a site on the summary of the symposium?"
Can't answer your question PT but it was good to look him up again.
Dave Mech WIki
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11/13/2024 03:33PM |
WapsiBanks00: "Is that 8-9 mil just from Minnesota taxpayers? I live in Iowa so maybe it's not impacting me - just curious."
It is a Federal Department so yes everyone is affected equally including Iowa Residents. The MN DNR and Fish and wildlife service would like to turn it over to the state for management. In MN this is not really a political topic Democrats have advocated for this as well as Republicans. It's an issue most agree on. It's cheaper, it's better for other species, better for the wolves. But special interests groups just need to find one sympathetic judge to stop it... I am probably being too simplistic but ya get the idea.
T
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11/11/2024 05:58PM |
By Beckie Gaskill
Contributing Writer
Ashland, Wis. — Federal officials in Minnesota set a record in 2023 with 248 wolves trapped on or near farms, with the first wolf trapped in May. Wolf trapping was off to a quick start early in 2024, but tapered off after problem wolves were removed from farms.
That update came from Duane Sahr, of the U.S. Department of Agriculture’s Wildlife Services, as he spoke about the wolf/livestock conflict program in Minnesota during the Timber Wolf Alliance’s Great Lakes Wolf Symposium, Oct. 15-17, in Ashland, Wis.
In 2023, Minnesota saw 12 cattle, 19 calves, five sheep, five dogs, and other miscellaneous animals that were verified to have been killed by wolves. This year began with wolf complaints coming in early due to a lack of snow and winter in general, Sahr said.
As of Oct. 1, 228 complaints had come in, with 99 verified as wolves, which is 43%. This year, by May 3, Wildlife Services personnel had already caught 60 wolves that killed livestock. Those early removals, though, seemed to reduce wolf depredations for the remainder of the year, Sahr said.
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11/11/2024 08:23PM |
Pinetree: "Dave Mech is the best, remember him as a rookie working in Ely the late 1960's,a few years ahead of Lynn Rogers the bear man.
Wonder is there a site on the summary of the symposium?"
Wolf Symposium
It was hosted by the Great Lakes Wolf Alliance, you might be able to track down some info, and they do have a FB page I believe.
My Dad (now 93 yo) has a few Mech stories, one being that he and a friend were returning from a BW trip, and stopped in Ely. There they ran into Mech, who was looking to hitch a ride back to the Twin Cities (I'm guessing to the U of M). They gave him a ride, and this included his gunny sacks full of carcasses he'd collected! Mech was quite engaging and entertaining at the symposium, and his wife was ever so gracious and engaging as well.
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11/12/2024 06:22PM |
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11/13/2024 07:12PM |
MY uncle east of Brainerd ran a very sizeable cattle farm of Black Angus. What is strange over a 30-year period he lost zero cattle to wolves. Yet in nhis woods was always a wolf pack almost constantly. He would see wolves in his pasture. Never even a calf loss.
This has to be very unusual, this pack and off spring never got habituated on the cattle.
Yet 6 miles south a federal trapper eliminated a pack of 6 because of cattle mortality and another about 12 miles away a federal trapper trapped 8 wolves and one coyote at another farm in short order. I guess the main female survived and left.
This map is a map of the travel of a lone female wolf radio collared (I got photos of) on my brother's land. It went back and forth across the country and about a year ago it settled down southwest of Mille lacs.
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11/13/2024 07:34PM |
National geographic is tight with these wolfs projects. Voyageurs Wolf Project
Gray wolves
Some of the many links.
FYI Natgeo won't let you read the many articles without you signing up with email and info.
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11/20/2024 07:32AM |