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Boundary Waters Quetico Forum :: Listening Point - General Discussion :: Let’s help electrify BWCA trips for all EVs!
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| Mike1100 |
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| ducks |
Mike1100: "I don’t own an EV (yet) but I believe Rockwood has charging stations near their outfitting building. " Correct. They have 2 level 2 chargers in between the lodge and outfitting building. |
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| Coda1 |
Mike1100: "I don’t own an EV (yet) but I believe Rockwood has charging stations near their outfitting building. " I saw the chargers there this fall. They said Tesla was interested in putting in super chargers but wanted to put in more chargers then they had space for. I'm surprised that there isn't already super chargers in Ely. Seems like a logical location for one. |
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| Banksiana |
ockycamper: "I can't imagine taking an EV on a long trip to the BWCA, and having to plan around all the charging stops. My brother bought a high end Tesla. He has a house in Venice FL, and another outside of Detroit. He decided to drive the Tesla from Venice to Detroit. he will never to that again." I've done a number of long trips with EV. If you have access to the Tesla Chargers its not much of a hassle. Sure you might have to spend a half hour fueling up instead of 10-15 minutes(chance to walk and get loose) two or three times a day during your drive, that time lost is more than made up by never having to go to a gas station (or charging station) in day to day life. Never. The cumulative time saving of fueling up in your garage is nearly incalculable. |
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| Savage Voyageur |
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| ockycamper |
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| nsuo |
ockycamper: " I have lived in Montana and Wisconsin. No one uses heat pumps up there. I have lived in Montana. EV's would be almost impossible there is you travel city to city due to the lack of charging stations vs gas stations. " I've also lived in Montana and CURRENTLY live in northern Minnesota. My house is heated/cooled with a heat pump and I drive an EV. It is very possible. These sweeping comments that because it doesn't work for one person means it can't work for anyone is silly. The OP wanted to drum up support for an EV charger in Ely for those that CHOOSE to drive their EV there. EVs and related infrastructure in the US isn't where it needs to be for more widespread adoption, but some of us have chosen to invest in this technology because we think it will be better in the long run and you have to start somewhere. |
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| flopnfolds |
nsuo: "ockycamper: " I have lived in Montana and Wisconsin. No one uses heat pumps up there. I have lived in Montana. EV's would be almost impossible there is you travel city to city due to the lack of charging stations vs gas stations. " Great point. Thank you for bringing us back to the point of the OP. |
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| ockycamper |
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| flopnfolds |
straighthairedcurly: "Just read an article that Ely is putting in a DCFC unit at the new Trailhead Facility they are building on the west side of town. Sounds like it will be CCS." Link to article regarding Level 3 charger. Link I have strong feelings about the chosen vendor for the project with our experiences at multiple chargers that they operate in northern Minnesota, but hopefully it will be different. Eveleth also has two fast chargers at Lundgrens Ford which has been a game changer. |
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| Banksiana |
plmn: " That same silverado with a gas engine requires equivalent energy to power 27 homes for a week (figuring 25 gallon tank and average home use of 30kwh/day) to fill. |
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| plmn |
Pinetree: "Just like the Model T, when it first came out you were still better having a horse. Yeah, it may get there, but China also has 22 nuclear power plants under construction with plans for 70 more. Even if batteries get to where they need to be, our electrical infrastructure is nowhere close. I did the math a while back and can't remember the exact specifics, but as an example the new Silverado EV has great range for an EV truck but it takes something like a week's worth of the average home's power to fully charge. A station able to quick charge 10 of those at once would require the same amount of power output as a city of several thousand homes. That is what I find frustrating. So many of the people pushing EV mandates are ignoring the big picture and pretending that better batteries and more charging stations are all that's necessary to replace ICEs. |
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| tumblehome |
And I have solar t my house and make enough electricity to essentially have no electricity bill. My surplus power in the summer is sold to MN Power at market rate. I get huge credits for several months in the spring-fall and then buy back those credits in the Winter. I was all ready to buy a Ford Lightning but the need for a vehicle for me was sooner than my pocketbook and a few other factors. I bought a 2025 Ford Maverick AWD hybrid. It gets close to 40MPG and that sold me. I will have an EV in a few years. Charge at home off my solar at times too. We really desperately need to get off fossil fuels, strictly my opinion and of most rational humans. Our society is doing the best we can but it’s gonna take more time. Tom |
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| scat |
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| plmn |
Banksiana: "plmn: " EVs burn much hotter than ICE fires. Up to 5000 degrees. They take 10 times as much water to extinguish. Not to mention the toxic gasses released. The ignition source absolutely matters. Which is why they are being banned from parking garages. |
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| RunningFox |
Windmills, solar panels, and electric vehicles have been a daily sight for several years now and yet we are told that last year (2024) was the warmest on record. The benefits of going green haven’t been noticeable but the enormous cost has. Patience with the green-electricity solution appears to be quickly running out. Personally, i don’t believe that there will be any new piece of technology or combination of new technologies that will fix the problems 8 billion people (and growing) inflict on the environment. I thank God for making earth as durable as it has been and marvel at his creation. |
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| MNGreene |
RunningFox: "... This is a long-term problem and will take a long time to fix.
Think of all the improvements we have made environmentally because of our improved technologies and actions. We have cleaner air and water now, for example. I don't think we should just give up. |
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| MNGreene |
Your comment about fueling convenience needs repeating Banksiana: "... My experience with 250,000+ EV miles is similar. One of those cars a 2013 Tesla with 170k miles and the battery is doing great and I would not be surprised if it lasted 300k or more miles. |
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| plmn |
MNGreene: "RunningFox: "... Sure, I was around in the '70s and have seen the improvement and it's been a good thing. But here in the first world we have reached a point of diminished returns. As in huge amounts of investments yield negligible results. The vast majority of worldwide environmental damage today is coming from China, India, and Africa. EVs aren't going to change that. Neither are wind and solar farms that have 20 year life spans. And we have been removing hydroelectric power. I agree it's a long term problem requiring long term fixes. Which is why I oppose the short-term mandates that so far haven't taken long-term necessities into consideration. To repeat what has already been said...the same people pushing for EV adoption are the very same people that have been opposing mining near the BWCA. It seems to me that there is an intellectual disconnect where people aren't willing to make the real sacrifices necessary to get what they want. Again I'm not against EVs, I'm just against they way they are being pushed. |
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| ockycamper |
Key points about the Union of Concerned Scientists: Focus on science-based policy: They use scientific research to advocate for policies on issues like climate change, nuclear power, and food safety. Left-leaning positions: Their policy stances tend to align with progressive views, often criticizing conservative policies they deem "anti-science". That organization is far from unbiased If you go there, then go to the Conservative Climate Caucus for another view |
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| straighthairedcurly |
ockycamper: "To make the EV vs gas comparison you also need to take into account: ockycamper has made it very clear that he will never switch to an EV, but the generalizations and random facts he has been throwing at people are very misleading and feed into the massive misinformation campaign that has been waged on EVs for decades. For anyone who is interested in more detailed studies: From Pump to Plug (Union for Concerned Scientists) There are also numerous studies that show EVs are cleaner than ICE vehicles over their full lifetime and continue to get cleaner as the source of electricity gets cleaner and recycle/reuse of the end product continues to improve. Each person is allowed to make up their own mind as to what is right for them. This thread has probably run its course since it has wandered pretty far from the OP request that anyone interested in an improved infrastructure make a suggestion on the Tesla site. Go in peace all. |
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| Minnesotian |
ockycamper: "From quick google search Sounds like they both want the same thing: From the Conservative Climate Caucus website: "What we belive: "The climate is changing, and decades of a global industrial era that has brought prosperity to the world has also contributed to that change." "Private sector innovation, American resources, and R&D investment have resulted in lower emissions and affordable energy, placing the United States as the global leader in reducing emissions" "Climate change is a global issue and China is the greatest immediate obstacle to reducing world emissions. Solutions should reduce global emissions and not just be "feel good" policies" Practical and exportable answers can be found in innovation embraced by the free market. Americans and the rest of the world want access to cheaper, reliable, and cleaner energy" "With innovative technologies, fossil fuels can and should be a major part of the global solution" "Reducing emissions is the goal, not reducing energy choices" |
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| oldzip |
Our first trips to northern Ontario in the 1970's found us waiting for gas stations to open up in the morning...did a lot of calculations of mileage so we could get to towns before we ran out of gas...we thought of it as adventure before the whitewater of the Chapleau or Missinaibi... Thanks all for the discussion. |
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| MNGreene |
With those and Tofte, Virginia (MN) actually makes more sense than Ely. Virginia would open access to Voyageurs NP and International Falls as well as Ely. |
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| ockycamper |
We pull in for gas when it gets low at whatever gas station we come to. Our gas stops are less then ten minutes as we hit the bathrooms, and rotate drivers while filling up. Adding an hour to the trip for charging would not fly with any of the guys. And I personally would never pay 2-3 times the price of a standard vehicle for an EV that won't pull as much weight, drive as far, or have as much storage as the cars I currently drive. |
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| Banksiana |
ockycamper: "We have a 16 hour drive. Unless the vehicles we use have a range of 500 or more miles per stop, we aren't taking them. There aren't many gas stations in that stretch two hours south of Duluth/Superior, or on the way up the north shore. I would hate to try to find a charging station. . ..and would REALLY hate to be waiting 30 minutes to two hours for the thing to charge." There are Superchargers in Duluth, Two Harbors and Tofte. You don't wait for 30 minutes to two hours, its almost always 30 minutes or less at a Supercharger. Not sure of your route but gas stations are abundant in Minnesota, Wisconsin and the UP. As for your brother's difficulties driving between Detroit and Florida, the route is rich in Superchargers. The story is silly- I had trouble at an off brand charging system so I'm never driving my "high end Tesla" out of town. That is stupid. Long trips with an EV mean a 1/2 hour stop for about every 4/5 hours of travel. I'm always a bit confused by logic that concludes that the hassle of adding an hour for every 500 miles of driving on long trips that you do once or twice a year has more weight in buying a car than the day in and day out use where you never have to stop for gas or an oil change. Its like choosing to drive a box truck all the time because you move every year. |
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| Banksiana |
ockycamper: " Your math is in error. In many cases EV prices are competitive with similarly equipped cars, my car was almost exactly the same price as the Outback I replaced. Might not be the behemoth suv one prefers. Personally I don't store stuff in my car. On one hand my "fuel" bill is 1/4 what it was, though if I need to move my piano I am shit out of luck. Hate to suffer the inconvenience of once a year hour longer journey in pursuit of a habitable planet. The simple way to think of an EV is that you're buying a car that gets 125mpg but only has a 2.5 gallon tank. I was skeptical of the transition. After a little over a year with an EV I'd never go back, the hassles and compromises are more than outweighed by the day to day ease of use and efficiency. |
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| AndySG |
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| nsuo |
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| scat |
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| Pinetree |
scat: "I mentioned my buddy has a Tesla that drives itself. I am going to check that out, I have Tupperware to return from the Xmas party and I need more cookies haha. I need to see this. I’ll report back. some of those drive yourselves Tesla have been having serios accidents and how do they drive on ice or severe weather conditions. Scary. |
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| straighthairedcurly |
scat: " Currently we have a 2020 Chevy Bolt and a 2023 Hyundai Ioniq 5. The Hyundai is our preferred road trip car because it has a much faster charging capability. Our first EV was a Mazda pickup truck with a bad engine that my husband converted to an EV in 1999. Of course, couldn't take road trips then. Since then we have had 2010 Wheego Whip, a couple different Nissan Leafs, and now the cars we currently have. Things have been changing so fast in the last few years to make road trips feasible. |
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| Pinetree |
scat: "I mentioned my buddy has a Tesla that drives itself. I am going to check that out, I have Tupperware to return from the Xmas party and I need more cookies haha. I need to see this. I’ll report back. some of those drive yourselves Tesla have been having serios accidents and how do they drive on ice or severe weather conditions. Scary. |
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| Blatz |
ockycamper: "We have a 16 hour drive. Unless the vehicles we use have a range of 500 or more miles per stop, we aren't taking them. There aren't many gas stations in that stretch two hours south of Duluth/Superior, or on the way up the north shore. I would hate to try to find a charging station. . ..and would REALLY hate to be waiting 30 minutes to two hours for the thing to charge."There's plenty of places to gas up 2 hours south of Duluth/ Superior. And on the North Shore. My Tundra I could get to Superior for NE Illinois, but now with my Outback I can get to Rice Lake. I never worry about finding a gas station. North Dakota on the other hand. How many vehicles get 500 miles? My Tundra had a 33 gallon tank and I could get around 485 miles |
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| JohnGalt |
The drive from just north of Duluth north to Ely reminds me of the drive ~Asheville going through the Appalachians - it is a desert for fuel stations, I imagine it is significantly worse for EV stations. Bring some solar panels to toss them the roof while in the woods & it might be charged when going to leave haha |
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| billconner |
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| Banksiana |
JohnGalt: "While an EV station in Ely would allow charging in Ely, where is the next closest station? There is a charging station in Virginia and one in Two harbors. |
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| plmn |
Minnesotian: "plmn: " To be clear, I am not against the development of EVs. We did casually consider one before replacing our minivan but EVs were not really suitable for our use. My issue is with short-sighted mandates trying to phase out ICEs that don't account for very obvious and major hurdles. Work on the back end and let the market proceed at its own pace. |
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| ockycamper |
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| plmn |
tumblehome: "ockycamper: "My brother retired several years ago as global director of Ford warranty. His advice was not to get an EV back then as the lifespan on the batteries was about 70,000 miles and the cost to replace the batteries was more then the car would be worth. I would argue the only reason it is generally agreed that the batteries last the life of the vehicle is because it's not practical to replace the batteries. Your Prius battery, which I believe is likely Nickel Metal Hydride rather than Lithium Ion, is small and costs a couple thousand dollars to replace. Expensive but usually not enough to scrap an otherwise good car. A typical EV battery runs around $20K, and with labor some replacements approach or exceed what the vehicle cost brand new. EV resale values have been tanking, and IMO the main reason is because people have started to realize this. Battery warranties are 8-10 years, which isn't bad by any means, but after that it's a disposable car. Much depends on how the vehicle is used and charged and prospective buyers have no way to verify this. |
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| scat |
Like I said I just bought a GMC Sierra with a 5.3 liter V8 motor and am planning on driving it & using it for work for as long as she'll have me. I love it, so I guess I am on both sides of the fence - that's ok I hope haha And as I alluded to earlier, where is all that infrastructure money being spent, I would think building more charging stations would have been a priority. Wasn't that passed like 3 years ago and a priority for the people in charge. I think it's a conspiracy.... |
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| Minnesotian |
ockycamper: "I have no problem with hybrids. I ordered a hybrid Ford Maverick. It gets better mileage, but I don’t have to mess with any charging nonsense, and I can fill it up with gas at almost every exit. All electric vehicles, however, have different batteries, and nowhere near the economic life of a gas powered car. That and on top of it are more money to purchase. There is a reason that manufacturers are cutting back on manufacturing of EV’s. Consumers don’t want them." I as well own a hybrid Ford Maverick, 2023 Cyber Orange. Great gas mileage and the perfect size for me and my camping equipment. I do wish car makers had devoted more time and energy to making all vehicles hybrids, then eventually plug in hybrids, and then eventually the full EV. This would have given enough time to establish the market, build consumer confidence, establish a network of charging locations, and create a transition from fossil fuels to electric as society adapted. |
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| flopnfolds |
plmn: "tumblehome: "ockycamper: "My brother retired several years ago as global director of Ford warranty. His advice was not to get an EV back then as the lifespan on the batteries was about 70,000 miles and the cost to replace the batteries was more then the car would be worth. End of life battery usage for EVs is considered end of life when the battery has degraded to 70-80% of its original state. Still has plenty of years of life left. Maybe not as a huge mile road trip vehicle, but for two car families its more than enough to get around. For used cars, the dealership can tell you how much battery degradation has occurred, or some cars offer a battery management system that tells you exactly how much degradation has occurred. Older cars, such as the Nissan Leaf were notorious for battery degradation, but that is an example of old technology no longer being used. All evs being sold in the US now use some type of liquid coolant for the battery, the Leaf was air cooled. Our 2017 Chevy Bolt has 70,000 miles and is still going strong with minimal degradation. Newer cars with much newer battery systems have less degradation. And not to crap all over the Bolt, it doesn't handle bumps very well, its small, its ugly, but it is still very fun to drive. |
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| scat |
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| plmn |
ockycamper: "I have no problem with hybrids. I ordered a hybrid Ford Maverick. It gets better mileage, but I don’t have to mess with any charging nonsense, and I can fill it up with gas at almost every exit. All electric vehicles, however, have different batteries, and nowhere near the economic life of a gas powered car. That and on top of it are more money to purchase. There is a reason that manufacturers are cutting back on manufacturing of EV’s. Consumers don’t want them." The new AWD Hybrid Maverick is at the top of my wish list once a couple of the kids move out of the house. Still not sure I can live with a bed that size, but it's sure tempting me. |
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| ockycamper |
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| scat |
Cheers, scat |
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| straighthairedcurly |
plmn: "scat: "And as I alluded to earlier, where is all that infrastructure money being spent, I would think building more charging stations would have been a priority. Wasn't that passed like 3 years ago and a priority for the people in charge. I think it's a conspiracy...." Where on earth did you get that statistic? Minnesota alone has built way more chargers than that with the federal infrastructure program. Chargers have been popping up like crazy in the past 2 years. |
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| straighthairedcurly |
For planning, some people swear by A Better Route Planner app, which now even integrates into some vehicle nav systems. Or use the Plugshare app. Plugshare website |
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| scat |
I can’t wait to check out my buddy’s self driving Tesla. Let’s go to Billy’s Pub, now drive me home stupid car haha |
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| straighthairedcurly |
ockycamper: "We have a 16 hour drive. Unless the vehicles we use have a range of 500 or more miles per stop, we aren't taking them. There aren't many gas stations in that stretch two hours south of Duluth/Superior, or on the way up the north shore. I would hate to try to find a charging station. . ..and would REALLY hate to be waiting 30 minutes to two hours for the thing to charge." I have to pee every 2 to 2.5 hours and that is the perfect timing for charging my vehicle. The newer chargers have my Hyundai charged and ready to go by the time I finish a bathroom break and punch the next stop into my nav system. Unlike a gas pump, you don't have to stay with the vehicle. I used to have time to eat lunch, but not anymore. Sometimes I seek out the older, slower stations just so I can have a sit down meal...LOL. |
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| straighthairedcurly |
Banksiana: "JohnGalt: "While an EV station in Ely would allow charging in Ely, where is the next closest station? The one right in Virginia has been out of commission a lot, but the Eveleth one at the Ford dealership has been great! Super awesome people who work there too. They said lots of their employees have been buying the Lightnings and the Mach cars. |
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| straighthairedcurly |
ockycamper: "I don't want to plan a route based on a handful of available charges which may or may not be available when I pull in. There's an app for that. Not difficult to plan and I enjoy the planning as much as I enjoy planning my canoe trip. But to each their own. I just can't justify driving anything else because the cost of driving an EV is so low for the day-to-day (I spend $150-$200 to drive my car 10,000 miles a year commuting). Not cheaper than a Prius hybrid on road trips, but one-third of the cost of driving an SUV on a road trip. |
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| scat |
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| straighthairedcurly |
ockycamper: "My brother retired several years ago as global director of Ford warranty. His advice was not to get an EV back then as the lifespan on the batteries was about 70,000 miles and the cost to replace the batteries was more then the car would be worth. That wasn't because of the battery packs themselves. Ford had installed mileage "kill switches" in the packs that caused that short life span problem. Not an issue today. Battery packs last as long as transmissions and engines in ICE vehicles. |
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| ockycamper |
I also believe in good stewardship of our environment as a believer in Christ. However this is a large country and what works in one part of the US does not work in others. I have lived in Montana and Wisconsin. No one uses heat pumps up there. I have lived in Montana. EV's would be almost impossible there is you travel city to city due to the lack of charging stations vs gas stations. I am all for inovation. Just not mandating it on people when it is impractible for them, or they simply don't want to go that route. I ordered a hybrid Ford Maverick. The reason is that it gets great mileage and it doens't need to be plugged in. |
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| billconner |
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| TrailZen |
billconner: " $9b for chargers " Thanks, Bill--good info. TZ |
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| scat |
Wow - That did say they are paying right around a million bucks a piece to build a charging station. Each state was right around there, when there was a shortfall the private sector picked up the difference. I thought I read that part of the deal might be the builder has to run the business afterwards. Sounds like the builders have been awarded contracts and this is in full swing. Infrastructure baby. That’s our tax dollars going to work! I still think it’s a conspiracy… |
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| billconner |
NEVI update. |
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| scat |
That said, I do like the EV revolution, if I had the dough I’d get one for a secondary/primary car. That self driving Tesla is something you have to see to believe. So cool. Def can be a daily driver, he gets 300+ miles on a charge, a salesman hard on the road will rarely come close to 200 times a day, I’ve been there haha. And you don’t have to buy gas…. Just charge up every night. Amazing technology in that car. |
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| scat |
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| SouthernKevlar |
At the current technology level, my view is that EVs are fantastic for around town, regional use and for personal travel (ie., not hauling a lot of weight). As more charging stations are installed, technology for energy storage and improves, and infrastructure for energy distribution gets better, this will become the dominant form of ground transport. When pulling a small (2000 lb.) camper, a couple of canoes, food and gear, two people, a dog and travelling 1400 miles each way, I will choose my ICE vehicle. I hope that in a decade or two that a more ecologically sound method of transport will evolve, but until then it is, at least to me, the right tool for the job. For around town and within the local region, I use our existing car, a Nissan Versa ICE that averages a measured 52 mpg at 55 mph and 36 mpg in town. It still has many years of use left in it, so I will not throw it out and buy a new EV that will take up a lot of natural resources to manufacture. It is currently my right tool for the job. When the Versa does come to it's end, an EV will probably replace it, assuming our civilization still exists in a recognizable form. That will probably be the best tool for the job at that time. So I view the current situation as having room for both EVs and ICEs on our streets and highways, though some fanatics on either end of the vehicle spectrum may scream "only my way is right". But as the old Bob Dylan song goes "The times they are a' changing". |
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| scat |
Quite sure the car companies see the future and are furiously working to come up with the next best thing. It’s not going to take 10 years, unless there is some weird opposition to this. Uh, not into politics, but that would suck if partisan politics is the reason to hold back on technological advances and EV infrastructure projects. Leave it there. You can drill baby drill, but plug & play is the way of the future. Totally cool. |
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| billconner |
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| MikeTinCan |
Pinetree: "The EV is in the Pioneer stage, ten years from now we will be amazed at the progress."It is already here. The Tesla Plaid is an amazing car. It is the fastest 0-60 car that is available. 400-mile range. The car is a 4 door and can be bought for 50k used. Teslas are great 1st generation EVs. The Toyota hybrids were also great 1st generation cars. I posted about a week ago with some firsthand information about local charging stations. It was removed and I don't know why? But I am new here and maybe that is why I don't understand it. |
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| OCDave |
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| Crappiekillah |
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| davidveale |
Do you heat *exclusively* with a heat pump? The physics on a heat pump don't work so well when it's -30 outside. I could see some improvement if you had a geothermal well to push the physics back into your favor, but that well is also a significant investment in terms of fuel burned. I greatly altered my life for many years, motivated largely by concern for climate change. I know the science and have studied most energy systems in great depth -- and came to the conclusion that wood heat (and for cooking) was the way to go, *if* CO2 is a primary concern. By the time electricity is generated (generally about 25% efficiency) from (usually fracked) natural gas or coal, sent via the transmission lines to your home (more signficant losses) and used to charge a car battery (more losses still), an EV will have as much if not more climate impact than a ICU powered vehicle despite the 95% efficiency of an electric drive. (I personally taught myself to drive an Amish buggy -- and yes, we put up our own hay without fossil fuels, using horses). I've since accepted that people will not make the necessary changes to ward off civilizational collapse, so decided to just enjoy myself while I can rather than do all the extra work I was doing. |
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| A1t2o |
People not supporting EVs appear to be more concerned with the idea that you might not be able to buy ICE vehicles in the not so distant future, and the fact that other nations on different continents have a far bigger impact on the environment than what car we drive. I think that for the most part, people are mostly on the same page, but the message of what they are trying to say doesn't get across very well and they feel like the other side just isn't listening. That's why people get frustrated so easily. Personally, I would like to buy an EV but they are out of my price range at the moment, but I also don't like the idea that in 10-20 years we're not likely to have many new vehicles at the dealer with an ICE. |
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| iCallitMaize |
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| JimmyJustice |
For the maples want more sunlight And the oaks ignore their pleas. Or in modern parlance...this is why we can't have nice things. |
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| mapsguy1955 |
Banksiana: "ockycamper: "We have a 16 hour drive. Unless the vehicles we use have a range of 500 or more miles per stop, we aren't taking them. There aren't many gas stations in that stretch two hours south of Duluth/Superior, or on the way up the north shore. I would hate to try to find a charging station. . ..and would REALLY hate to be waiting 30 minutes to two hours for the thing to charge." Exactly... I'm thinking they are just looking for reasons why not to buy one. |
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| mapsguy1955 |
Banksiana: "RunningFox: "Governments, voters, and enterprises around the world are giving up on their green energy commitments as they realize the enormous costs and lower standards of living associated with going green. Banksiana, you are 100% correct. It will take a significant reduction in fossil fuel burning to begin to make a difference. If we appreciate places like the BWCA or Quetico, it would be nice if we would start thinking about how to preserve it the way it is, instead of just assuming it won't be affected by what we do when we aren't there. I would think this would be common sense. I was at a lighting trade show about 20 years ago and one of the vendors told me that if we all switched our lightbulbs to LED's, all of us, we could close something like 30 coal fired power plants. We did switch, some of us screaming about overreach, but what happened? We use 10 times as many lights now so the effect is negligible. The problem is entitlement. We want what we want when we want it. Our personal desires supersede what is best for the general future. I get it. I'm just very sad about it. People talk about faulty science and follow the money. The enormous money goes to mega corporations who have publicly traded stocks and ridiculously wealthy boards. We are a country where marketing is king. They have bought the media, almost all of it. They own the message and oil is their sacred cow. Would we expect anything different than a battle against change cloaked in terms that anyone could understand? They have done a fabulous job at making it viscerally simple, even though it is just plain wrong. We know better. Places like canoe country are far more important to the planet than just a place for a few of us to take a vacation. It is just all about the dollars. That is it. |
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| mapsguy1955 |
Pinetree: "Great discussion, and so civil. Good going guys and gals. Luckily, the conversion won't happen in a day! As we sell more cars, we will build more charging stations. |
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| scat |
Cheers - scat |
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| scat |
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| GopherAdventure |
Thanks, Tony |
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| straighthairedcurly |
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| ockycamper |
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| ockycamper |
After that trip he never drove the Tesla out of town again. I can't imagine driving up from Duluth to the Gunflint trying to find a charging station |
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| brp |
Tesla offers a webpage where anyone can suggest locations for new installations…and I suspect many BWCA users own EVs, are concerned about the health of the planet, and would prefer to take their EV on BWCA trips. With many people driving straight from other parts of the region to their EP, there is no good fast charging option in Ely or in the immediate area. If you’d like to see BWCA trips made cleaner, please follow or share the link and suggest to Tesla that Ely receive a Supercharger station. Anyone can suggest a location, not just Tesla owners. Thanks. Suggest A Supercharger Location. |
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| wxce1260 |
OCDave: "Can't... Fire ban. No lighting fires under anyone's butt in the BWCA"Well played! :) |
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| Banksiana |
straighthairedcurly: "I have used the Tesla "suggest a location" website numerous times and Ely is always top of my list. Drives me crazy that no one has put either a CCS or Tesla DCFC charger in Duluth. A number of years ago, there was rumbling that Ely was going to install something and there was even a "pending" icon in Plugshare. Then it vanished and I have no idea why. " There is a Tesla Supercharger in downtown Duluth (150kwh). Not the easiest to access (in hotel ramp) but its there if you need it. 250kwh chargers near Cloquet (Black Bear) and in Two Harbors. All public chargers in Ely are level two. |
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| straighthairedcurly |
ockycamper: "I can't imagine taking an EV on a long trip to the BWCA, and having to plan around all the charging stops. My brother bought a high end Tesla. He has a house in Venice FL, and another outside of Detroit. He decided to drive the Tesla from Venice to Detroit. he will never to that again." Not for everyone, but I've taken my EV to Ely numerous times and up the North shore to Grand Marais and up the Gunflint Trail numerous times as well. I also did 2 trips from MN to FL in 2024 which were a piece of cake compared to northern MN. The trick is planning your trip and having back up plan...not unlike a BWCA trip :) |
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| adam |
Banksiana: "straighthairedcurly: "I have used the Tesla "suggest a location" website numerous times and Ely is always top of my list. Drives me crazy that no one has put either a CCS or Tesla DCFC charger in Duluth. A number of years ago, there was rumbling that Ely was going to install something and there was even a "pending" icon in Plugshare. Then it vanished and I have no idea why. " Duluth charger is in a holiday inn ramp as mentioned, and they will validate your ticket for parking to get in if you go to the front desk. And the ticket works for a couple days if you ask and are around the area. The speed can vary significantly. Don't plan on 30 minutes, but that is a possibility. |
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| Minnesotian |
ockycamper: "I don't want to plan a route based on a handful of available charges which may or may not be available when I pull in. Thank you for your opinion. It is obvious from your expressed viewpoint this thread is not for you. There are other people, besides yourself, that travel differently or factor in how to travel that are different from how you travel. People are different from you and may want different things. And since requesting electric chargers in Ely does in no way remove gas stations you are not inconvenienced. I myself do not have an electric vehicle, but I do have a hybrid and someday in the future (if there are more electric charging stations just as convenient as gas stations) I may be so inclined to purchase an electric vehicle and so support more charging stations, especially in places I like to visit. |
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| sedges |
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| yogi59weedr |
I'm 6ft. 4. 250 lbs. I like my comfort. |
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| brp |
straighthairedcurly: "I have used the Tesla "suggest a location" website numerous times and Ely is always top of my list. Drives me crazy that no one has put either a CCS or Tesla DCFC charger in Duluth. A number of years ago, there was rumbling that Ely was going to install something and there was even a "pending" icon in Plugshare. Then it vanished and I have no idea why. " Electrify America has opened at Menards in Duluth, with speeds to 350kw. As others have noted, there is a Supercharger in Duluth. The Superchargers in Carlton and Two Harbors make the Duluth location less relevant, but still nice. There is one 240kw at Ford in Virginia/Eveleth, which is a welcome improvement. You can always tell in EV discussions the people who have had them and who have not….Anyway, I’ve been taking EV’s on BWCA trips, from MSP, since 2014, before there was any fast charging, and I’ve never had any issues or problems. Now, you can buy a Model 3, new, in the 30-40k range that can do over 350 miles at 70 mph and charge at 250kw. Things have gotten really good. Please take the time to suggest Ely!!! |
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| scat |
That said, I think the electric cars are totally cool. In a couple years all the bugs will be worked out and this will be the way to go. My buddy has the latest Tesla and he said it literally drives itself. Say Billy’s Pub & it will drive you there totally by itself. I didn’t get a ride cuz the car was blocked in at the party Xmas Eve but I def want to check it out. He said it’s amazing, I think I’d be scared it won’t actually brake in time etc but he said it does. I did get a short ride in an EV once and it was silent, can’t even tell it’s running but then it goes. Especially if you are not going on long trips, seems like a great idea. I am guessing a home charging system costs $4-5,000. But that is just a guess. More charging stations for trips - sure why not. Didn’t someone pass some kind of multibillion $ infrastructure bill for this. |
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| thegildedgopher |
I’m hoping for two things: 1) continued innovation to reduce the emissions required to build these vehicles; and 2) a system in the future where a guy can just pull his vehicle into any fuel/repowering station and swap for a fully charged battery. Imagine that. You buy a single battery “core” and pay an annual subscription for the privilege of repeatedly swapping that core out as needed. Or for a guy who is going to be traveling off grid like into deep northern Ontario, you have the choice of purchasing several cores and pre-charging them on your own at home before a trip. Out of juice? Just pull over and swap a battery out and you’re on your way. Now that would be sweet. Like the modern day equivalent of packing the boat full of Jerry cans, but less stinky. Now someone can poke holes in my fantasy… |
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| brp |
scat: ". I am guessing a home charging system costs $4-5,000. But that is just a guess. More charging stations for trips - sure why not. Didn’t someone pass some kind of multibillion $ infrastructure bill for this." I just installed a “home charging system” at my house for about $60. Delivers 10,000 watts, more AC power than some EVs can handle. |
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| brp |
The battery swapping, I get the appeal…A YouTube channel just raced across the country, Seattle to Boston, a gas car versus the new Porsche Taycan. The gas car won by two hours over 3 thousand miles and no stopping, other than to fuel/charge. An extreme use case, that almost nobody does, 44 vs 46 hours. I think people should just give EVs a fair shot. In the Model 3 you’d need about 15 minutes of charging to get to 500 miles at 70mph. Do you really ever need more capability than that? 15 minutes of stopping over 7 hours of driving? You’d be at 10 in a gas car. |
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| scat |
Having an extra battery you can swap out does sound like a good idea. |
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| straighthairedcurly |
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| scat |
I'm curious what kind of EV car you have. I do think they are cool & def the way to go. The technology is only going to get better and more reliable and convenient to use. |
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| straighthairedcurly |
Banksiana: "ockycamper: "I can't imagine taking an EV on a long trip to the BWCA, and having to plan around all the charging stops. My brother bought a high end Tesla. He has a house in Venice FL, and another outside of Detroit. He decided to drive the Tesla from Venice to Detroit. he will never to that again." In all my trips with my non-Tesla EV, I've only ever bothered with a Tesla station once...and that was just to try it. There are actually more CCS locations in the country than Tesla stations...only difference is each Tesla station has more units so less likely to have a wait. |
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| straighthairedcurly |
thegildedgopher: "I have been an EV skeptic but I’m coming around. They’re better for the environment than gas cars, just don’t kid yourself that they are “zero emissions.” No such thing exists. The environmental impact of building an EV is worse than a gas car, but the EV starts to catch up quickly once you put it on the road. There was an Israeli company that developed a system like this but it just has never caught on. Frankly, quicker to stop and charge with how high powered the units have become. But, you are correct that it would be handy for off-grid travel....just not a big enough market for that when 98% of all EV charging is done at home. |
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| Pinetree |
In 20 years, you will see electric vehicles and mileage never seen possible. China now has a electric car that goes 700 miles between charges. They have spent many billions on research and development. |
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| Crappiekillah |
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| plmn |
Banksiana: "plmn: " That's irrelevant. We already have the means to produce the fuel consumed by the millions of ICE Silverados on the road today. We do not have the means to produce the electricity needed to replace a majority of them with EV versions. That is decades away, assuming the same people pushing mandates are willing to build the power production necessary, which seems unlikely. |
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| plmn |
Crappiekillah: "Lithium mines and their impacts on the environment and humanity go against all that most posters here stand for,food for thought my friends.Its easy to put on blinders to feel good about your vehicle purchasing decisions.Imagine if said lithium for said vehicles was being mined near our precious canoe country." Yes, though a more relevant example is copper. EVs require over three times as much copper as ICEs. There's no free lunch. Who's willing to pay the price? "China" is the answer. Because they know that they will control the world's transportation if things continue on their current course. |
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| ockycamper |
We get near 200,000 miles out of our cars with very little problems. I don't know of an EV out there that will get past 75,000 to 100,000 miles. Reality is that the US road and highway system was not designed for vehicles that need to stop and recharge every 3-4 hours. |
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| Minnesotian |
plmn: " What's the alternative? Keep on keeping on with the fossil fuel vehicles that we know are currently polluting? Natural Gas vehicles? Nuke vehicles? Everyone gets a bike? Horses? I get that there is no free lunch, but to continue on without innovation and just blindly accepting technology that is nearly 150 years old by now isn't that great of an option either. We are already paying the price today. Something has to change and why not try something different like electric vehicles. One thing to consider is the ability to recycle lithium, same with copper. It is cost prohibitave right now, and it is cheaper to mine, but that I am certain will change: How well can electric vehicles be recycled? ..Can Lithium Batteries Be Recycled?. Also, the energy souce for electric vehicles has the potential to be very cheap, accessible, and clean - solar. And, there are a lot more EV charging stations out there then you may realize: Xcel Energy Map of charging stations Not a lot here but more will be on the way: Charging stations at MN State Parks U.S. Department of Energy listing of charging stations |
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| plmn |
scat: "And as I alluded to earlier, where is all that infrastructure money being spent, I would think building more charging stations would have been a priority. Wasn't that passed like 3 years ago and a priority for the people in charge. I think it's a conspiracy...." $7.5 billion was allocated for EV charging and after 2 years just 7 chargers were built. What's not clear is how much of that money was actually spent. |
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| tumblehome |
ockycamper: "My brother retired several years ago as global director of Ford warranty. His advice was not to get an EV back then as the lifespan on the batteries was about 70,000 miles and the cost to replace the batteries was more then the car would be worth. MMmmmm. Not really. My Hybrid Prius has 185k miles on it and the lithium batteries are still doing their thing. It’s generally agreed that the battery packs in EV will last the life of the vehicle. The life span of battery packs are not generally the cause of the end of life of an EV. Also not sure I agree that ICE vehicles get 200,000 miles on them with very little problems. With all of this- I want to say that I appreciate everyone for maintaining our civil conversation and debate on this subject. You cannot talk about EV’s, mining and all of that without disagreement. And we have to agree to disagree but still get along. Tom |
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| ockycamper |
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| plmn |
straighthairedcurly: "plmn: "scat: "And as I alluded to earlier, where is all that infrastructure money being spent, I would think building more charging stations would have been a priority. Wasn't that passed like 3 years ago and a priority for the people in charge. I think it's a conspiracy...." Washington Post and elsewhere. It was pretty widely reported. |
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| plmn |
scat: "shc - I assume you have a charging station at home. How does that work, did it really only cost $60 to set up. The concept of plugging your car in every night and you are good to go for the next day is so smart, cheap, clean - Going to be cool to see how this evolves, I like it!" Charge them in your garage at your own risk. They may not catch fire as often as ICE cars, but when they do it is far more catastrophic for everything and everybody around them. Parking garages are starting to ban them due to insurers refusing to cover them otherwise. In Seoul they have banned all EVs in public parking garages that are above a 90% state of charge. These kinds of restrictions are being enacted increasingly around the world. People have told me that the risk is too low to worry about. Well, insurance actuaries and government agencies analyzing the data are indicating otherwise. I've never needed a smoke alarm but I still have them. I've never needed a seat belt but I still wear them. I won't be parking an EV under my master bedroom every night anytime soon. |
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| Banksiana |
Biggest advantage- efficiency. The car gets the equivalent of 120mpg in city driving, about 110mpg on the highway. My previous vehicle, a Subaru Outback got about a quarter of that. It cost me about $40 to $50 a week to fill the Outback. My household power bill has gone up by about $50/month since I've started charging. Off-peak electricity is considerably cheaper in my neck of the woods than gasoline per watt of available energy. I only use the Super Chargers on extended trips- it seems to me that the price/watt of the public chargers is very close to the price/watt of gas. Biggest disadvantage- cold weather operation. I live in far northern MN, so it gets really cold. Range loss is noticeable not to mention the increase in consumption necessary to generate heat to keep the cabin comfortable. When temps close on 0 loss of range is probably 30-35%. Of course ICE cars also lose range and efficiency in the cold, my Subaru generally lost about 16% of its range in winter, probably around 20% when temps closed on 0 and below, but its not really an issue if you can just pull into a gas station and top off. On the other hand I never have to pull into a gas station and stand around in the cold with a chunk of -20 metal in my hand. When people stress on range and public charging hassles they forget that this behavior is something YOU ALMOST NEVER DO. In the last year of use 8% of my power was pulled from public charging, basically everything else came from the garage. Think of the number of times in the course of the year you stop to fill your car, now get rid of 92% of those instances. Trade off is that those 8% take 20-30 minutes instead of 10 minutes. The obsession with time consumed charging on long trips is close to moronic when you consider all the time you've saved the rest of the year. Tesla supercharging is ridiculously simple. You simply park and plug in. No card reader, no data entry, no receipt, no fiddling with buttons or switches. When you're done the screen will tell you what it cost. On my last extended road trip I tended to take longer to walk and stretch my legs (exercise the dog) than the car needed to charge. Of the five stops on the there and back trip the longest time "requirement" was 25 minutes. In all the time I've owned the car I've had one 5 minute wait for a charger- this was an ill-timed stop in Rochester (a Tesla Mecca) at 4:00pm. The home charger was considerably more expensive than $60 for me. About $3500, $1500 of which I will get back on my taxes. The expense was due to basically having to put in a new service in order to qualify for my co-op's off peak rates (off peak is supplied via a separate service rather than time of day metering). I will be using the off-peak service for heating the house at some point in the future so the investment was not solely for the purpose of charging. Before putting in the charger I managed to exist entirely on level one (just a 110v outlet) for six months (not something I would recommend, particularly in winter). When tallying the environmental costs of EV fueling and manufacture do not forget the incredible environmental cost of petroleum production, transportation and dispersion. Not to mention the ongoing problem of literally millions of leaching and leaking underground tanks (gas stations). There are no easy or certain answers to solve the environmental cost of personal transportation; what I am certain of is that efficiency is the key measure of success. Choosing efficiency in our homes, vehicles and lifestyle is the greatest contribution we can make. Burn less, consume less and you'll spend less and have more time to be in the outdoors. |
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| scat |
Makes no sense to me to be against EVs, I think they are awesome and only going to get better. |
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| Banksiana |
plmn: " This is specious reasoning at best. Per 100,000 cars sold, gas vehicles average 1,529 fires, while EVs average 25. If your car catches fire in the garage below your master bedroom in a matter of a few seconds the issue is not the car fire but the house fire. At this point in time the difficulty of extinguishing the point of ignition is pretty much immaterial. Between 2010 and 2022 there were nearly 300 EV fires globally. 300. BTW Hybrids are nearly twice as likely to burn as gas cars- some 3500 per 100,000 vehicles sold. I agree that people shouldn't be forced to buy an EV. If you don't want to drive one don't. |
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| scat |
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| ockycamper |
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| billconner |
briar: "They both are" I'll trust a scientist over a politician anyday. Also over billionaires. |
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| Someday |
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| salukiguy |
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| ockycamper |
The cost to charge your car The cost to install the charging system in your garage The additional cost for the car at time of purchase The economic lifespan of the car If you, like me, drive a lot of miles each day the estimates I found were $5.00 to $18.00 to fully charge the car depending on wher you live and the type of charging system you use. Average of $12 to full recharge at home. Then there is the charging system. Level 1 systems about $1300 to $2000. Level two systems about $500 more. Level 3 systems run $12,000 to $45,000. According to Kelly Blue Book the average cost for an EV in 2024 was $56,000. The average cost for a gas powered vehicle was $49,000. So a $7000 difference. Finally the economic cost of the two types of cars. In other words what has been the effective drop in resale value of the gas cars at lets say 200,000 miles vs the EV. I think when all this is taken into consideration, the EV's are not as cheap as people think |
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| Someday |
ockycamper: "To make the EV vs gas comparison you also need to take into account: Who thinks they are cheap? People who can afford to drive them do it for reasons that don’t have much to do with money. |
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| RatherbeDuffing |
RunningFox: "Governments, voters, and enterprises around the world are giving up on their green energy commitments as they realize the enormous costs and lower standards of living associated with going green. Yeah, screw it - let's give up... What a shitty attitude. Whether green energy solutions are winning the climate change battle or not they are still resulting in very tangible benefits to our health and our environment. We waste billions of dollars on much more frivolous things. Despite efforts to undercut it, green energy innovation is picking up steam and is driving advances across multiple economic sectors. |
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| timatkn |
iCallitMaize: "We should have a Hall of Fame thread section. Add this one...Guns in the BWCA, Dogs in the BWCA...Permit Process...there have been several worthy "discussions"! " Also...Violating or not violating the 9 person, 4 watercraft on a portage when using it with other groups, food storage rules.... 25 years ago it was Kevlar vs. aluminum or Royalex, Quetico vs. the BWCAW that would spark a million posts. :) |
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| billconner |
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| Minnesotian |
ockycamper: " Yer right, EV is not cheaper (as an outright purchase from no EV to fully EV at home, including charger at home) then a basic Internal Combustion car. And I wouldn't expect it to be considering the gas car has had 100 years plus to set-up a network of fuel stations, innovation of technology, and efficency in fuel consumption. However, the majority of fossil fuel impacts are far removed from our day to day realization everytime we fill up at a gas station. We have passed the impact of gas consumption into our insurance premiums, the environment, and our health. Everyone reading this thread has been impacted by leaded gasoline. Remember the classic smog pictures of Las Angeles during the 1980's? Factor that cost into the pros/cons of ev vs. gasoline. Also factor into the cost of fueling the gas vehicle the cost to drill for the fuel, refine the fuel, transport the fuel, (don't forget the cost to clean up any fuel spills) regulate the fuel, and dispense the fuel. I get it, when looking at a vehicle to purchase, 99% of the time it comes down to the sticker price on the windshield and convenience. All those other costs seems like someone else's problem to deal with. But the addiction to fossil fuel and the network around it has led to the Lac-Mégantic, Quebec train disaster, Exxon Valdez oil spill, Deepwater Horizion oil spill, Keystone pipeline oil spill, the Kalamazoo River Disaster, the Line 3 oil spill, not to mention the thousands to millions of gallons that are slowly leaked out everyday from millions of garages and gas stations around the world, and so on an so forth. Just because something is cheap, doesn't mean you aren't paying a premium price. TANSTAAFL. Maybe electric vehicles aren't the silver bullet, but we do know the problems with fossil fuels, so having other options seems wise to me. |
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| ockycamper |
Also needing to be factored into the equation is that the EV's require power plants to generate the electricity needed to run them. Even Musk has said that if everyone went to EV's, the grid would not handle it. Finally, gas powered cars are far more efficient today then in the past with far fewer emissions. If we get to the point that EV's are the same price as gas powered cars; gas stations have as many EV connections as gas pumps; homes are built with EV connections already as part of the contstruction price; and the range of an EV vehicle is the same as a gas powered vehicle, then consumers would buy them. We are many years from that now. Think about what a disaster the Ford F150 Lightening was. |
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| briar |
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| billconner |
Which one is political? |
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| scat |
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| Crappiekillah |
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| billconner |
Crappiekillah: "Glaciers have been receding for eons and will continue no matter what we do." Except the speed with which they are receding now is much much faster than anytime in history. As far as our ability to affect it, just the decrease measurable during the pandemic inactivity indicates human activity affects it. |
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| TrailZen |
scat: "I saw something on the news and had to google - Self driving car gets stuck in airport parking lot. There is a taxi service called Waymo in Santa Monica that uses driverless cars and it gets confused in an airport parking lot and it’s pretty funny. I would attach a video but I’m clueless how to do that but it is worth a look if you want a chuckle." It is pretty funny, here's the link... TZ |
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| scottiebaldwin |
Take the time to watch it, it’s super informative. He gets to the crux of his thoughts on the problems with EV’s around the 1 hour 39 minute mark. Brothers of the Serpent Podcast - Current Battery Technology with James Kaschmitter |
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| scat |
Might be a good idea to get some female or minority involvement in this. I’ll talk to my sisters, We’ll call it 4 Sisters 4 The Future Construction LLC. I like it. A quarterly meeting to discuss strategy should suffice. I don’t like the word minority, the word in itself signifies differences that don’t need to be pointed out, couldn’t care less about that, all talented people are invited to join the team. Porta potties will be all inclusive of course and will accept donations from any race, creed, sexual orientation and whatever else is out there, I lost track. I'll have an EV mandate for subcontractors, all subs must have EV powered vehicles, which will jack up their costs and my cut as well off the customary profit margin. I can keep my V8 powered pickup tho, somebody's gotta be the boss. I'm all in! Sign me up! Let's build 200 of them this year! Can't make any money building houses anymore, everything is so dang expensive, but hey if the government is handing out guaranteed money this might be worth a shot, tho they are notorious slow payers, but we can figure that out once we get rolling and the cash starts coming in. Cheers, scat |
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| scat |
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| billconner |
scat: "That was very informative thx for that. Somewhere in the $100,000 to 150,000 per charging port it seems. I see gas stations start around $250,000 but can go up to $50,000,000. Location and land along with what else is included would make a big difference. Can you have an EV station without a convenience store? And government to some degree is directing locations. One near me might not cost much, but one in a major city could be much more expensive. |
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| scat |
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| Pinetree |
Its the future, but wonder how do you handle recharging when we start getting a big increase in people going electric. Now you stop and gas up in a minute or two. How will you handle hundreds or even maybe a 1000 of vehicles in one spot in a day. I believe like the first Model T vehicles, people scoffed at them and said they will never replace the horse? The next 10 years you will see leaps and bounds of improvement. I know we need improvements in the electrical grid will have to happen. Great discussion and actually surprised how well it is going. |
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| Banksiana |
ockycamper: " A level 1 charging system (just plugging into an outlet) is $230 for a premium charger from Tesla (that is also a level II charger if you have a 30-50amp plug). I suppose it would cost $1500 if you don't have electricity in your garage, but if you have access to an outlet you can get a level I charger for $200. If your garage has 60amp service simply installing a 220V outlet gives you access to level II for well under $1000. Why argue by spreading disinformation? Your concerns on charging times and locations are valid. This is just hyperbole. |
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| Banksiana |
RunningFox: "Governments, voters, and enterprises around the world are giving up on their green energy commitments as they realize the enormous costs and lower standards of living associated with going green. God will save us! Great solution. You can marvel at His creation but it seems to lack executive oversight of late. Windmills and solar panels are a daily sight and its still warmer- a demonstration of energy ignorance. Yes we have increasing numbers of solar and wind projects, but world fossil fuel use is still increasing year by year- to make a difference CO2 emissions need to be reduced, the best we've managed so far is to slow the rate of increase. The notion that being efficient is somehow a "lower standard of living" makes a solution impossible. Currently "standard of living" is a measure of energy and resource consumption per individual. I question the notion that more things and more kilowatts consumed results in a higher "standard of living" - as long as this is the narrow methodology with which quality of life is measured we are doomed. My notion is that the measure of "standard of living" should be in hours that are available to be spent as one wishes. |
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| LMS11327 |
ockycamper: "My brother retired several years ago as global director of Ford warranty. His advice was not to get an EV back then as the lifespan on the batteries was about 70,000 miles and the cost to replace the batteries was more then the car would be worth. EV batteries are now proven to last 200,000-300,000 miles. That’s not a concern. As mentioned, Rockwood Lodge has a level 2 charger that works great! We took our Rivian up from the Cities and launched from Rockwood, and appreciated immensely that they charge their customers NOTHING to use that charger. With one intermediate stop in Duluth at the level 2 charger near park point, it worked fine. Stop for dinner, add 50 miles while eating and for the time being, that one is free as well! There’s also a DC fast charger in Pine City, about an hour north of Mpls, that will get any EV to 80% in less than 15 minutes. The landscape is changing rapidly! |
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| scat |
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| quark2222 |
scat: "Been checking this out. Illinois is allocating $25.3 million in the first round to build 37 projects with 182 new charging ports. Each location will have at least 4 DC charging ports, each of which can fully charge a typical EV from empty in less than 30 minutes. And I am pretty sure the company that build it maintains the facility. I’d put some gaming machines in the building, make more money on that while the car charges than selling electricity but I digress. They are taking bids now till Jan 31st. Oh man I want to get into this somehow. The leading company building these is ChargePoint, might be a good idea to buy ChargePoint stock, it’s only going up. Or get a job with them and learn the business, then start your own. This has a future, something to look forward to, I’m into it." December 2020, Chargepoint stock was $46 per share. Now it's $1.11 per share. Chargepoint Stock History |
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| timatkn |
For me it was the internet, I had friends in college saying how great it was…took them 20 minutes to look up a phone number I could find in the yellow pages in 1 minute…anyone even see a yellow pages in the last 15 years :) The automobile was invented in 1880..wasn’t really widely used until the 1910’s and then not even close to the levels we see today. How about the original computers. Look at what NASA had to use to put us on the moon—those computers filled a whole building…a laptop has more power now :) Most technology takes time to perfect and improve to a be cost effective usable alternative. T |
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| billconner |
I bought my last car in 2018, an ICE, and figured then my next car would be an EV. |
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| scat |
It is a California company, I am interested what outfit is doing the work in Illinois. |
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| Pinetree |
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| billconner |
scat: "If you got a ride in the car I did today I think you would say the EV thing is already amazing and ready to take off. That self driving Tesla blows the doors off any car I have ever seen. +1 |
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| scat |
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