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Author	Message Text
BEARnMOOSE	05/12/2025 12:11PM   Any guesses on what Brand X was referring to in the article?
gravelroad	05/12/2025 07:45AM   I am choosing to post this here and not the Gear forum because it deserves wider attention than it would get over there. I used to sell canoes. My father taught me at an early age to cast a critical eye at hull designs. I saw a popular solo hull yesterday in a parking lot that got me to thinking about freeboard. It was inadequate in that regard, IMO. If your plans include Sag, Seagull, Brule, etc., the advice in this article deserves your attention. It will probably generate some controversy here. :-) FREEBOARD - You’re sunk without it
Pinetree	05/12/2025 08:45AM   That is why I chose my Quetico Souris river canoe. It rides waves good and has also decent side height. Yes been there done that on Baily bay.
deerfoot	05/12/2025 08:53AM   Every once in awhile I think of the OT Tripper I owned for 23 years and of the time it saved a buddy and myself because of its high freeboard. Definitely something to think about when you plan to paddle big lakes.
TreeBear	05/12/2025 09:16AM   Very cool! Different hulls for different trips for sure! The size of person matters, the amount of gear matters, and where you are going to paddle matters. I have a 17 ft canoe with a 400-pound capacity. At that light of load, I can't paddle it with some people without exceeding the weight limit without gear. Meanwhile, my Mad River Explorer rates to 1100 pounds to a 6-inch freeboard. Is it as fast? No. If I'm going for a week-long trip, though, I am definitely choosing one over the other. I owned a really pretty 10 ft cedar strip at one point that I had to sell because I could barely keep it upright (I was too heavy for that small of a canoe, mere inches of freeboard with just me.) When I went to sell, the person who came to buy it dumped it immediately during the test paddle. A little redemption for my pride, and they still bought it (!!!), but it was a great illustration for me of how much the hull design matters.
NEIowapaddler	05/12/2025 12:19PM   boonie: "Yes, but how much freeboard is enough? " Maximum wave height + 1/4" ;)
Pinetree	05/12/2025 11:32AM   So much depends on skill and knowing when to stay put, but would be interesting to see numbers of what kind of canoe capsized the most.
sedges	05/12/2025 11:13AM   You can't judge freeboard when the canoe is on the racks. Freeboard is a factor of hull depth, hull volume above the waterline and weight of the load being carried. It might be the person using this canoe is a light weight going on day trips with very little gear. That said, I was nervous about hull depth when I started paddling my Mad River Indy. It is less than 12 inches in the middle. The only other solo I had tripped with was woodstrip hull I built myself and I made it 13 inches deep. Over time I have come to be quite comfortable with depth of the Indy, though I would still prefer a bit deeper. On a traverse on Brule from the South Temperance Lake portage to the Cones I had a strong south wind piling up waves on the north shore. I stayed about 50 feet off shore quartering into the wind and waves to stay off shore and also make progress in the direction of travel. It was a wild ride, but I never shipped a drop except for a little spray now and then. I would never attempt those same conditions out in the middle of the lake, even in a deeper hull. The Indy has pretty good flare that continues above the waterline. It floats over waves like cork. A hull that would cut through waves would have had water coming over the gunnels
Blatz	05/12/2025 12:46PM   Banksiana: "I think freeboard is over rated. I've paddled an Advantage for close to 40 years (solo with very limited free board) and I've only shipped water in small sips on days where I had no business trying to cross Basswood. As a soloist freeboard functions more as a wind catcher than a water barrier- weight is centered and the stems unburdened to rise and fall with the waves. On tandem trips I've yet to ship water in my MNII or Escape. Again the catching of the wind seems to me a much bigger problem than the shipping of water. I do travel relatively light and nearly all of my canoe partners have been sub 200#. Linked article is a sales brochure, its purpose is to sell a brand of boat." Totally agree.Also 40 year Advantage owner, many trips in the BW with it. On windy days it actually did better than others even my NW Solo
timatkn	05/14/2025 07:36PM   jamotrade: "It's not the size of the freeboard, it's the motion of the ocean. LOL! " Only those with a small freeboard say that LOL
justpaddlin	05/19/2025 11:48AM   I've never been a fan of looking at one design parameter in isolation. I've paddled solos with modest freeboard in winds strong enough to blow me backwards and in super high wind I can make progress when a boat with high freeboard can't make forward progress. On the other hand when I see tragedies on the Great Lakes involving canoes with flat bottoms and zero rocker I don't think the problem was lack of freeboard. I've had my shallowest, lowest capacity solo on Lake Michigan with 2-3 foot rollers and while it's scary, the rocker and rounded bottom make the boat more competent than the low freeboard suggests.
jhb8426	05/31/2025 12:55AM   boonie: "Yes, but how much freeboard is enough? " Maybe this much...
timatkn	05/31/2025 07:17AM   LOL I wish I still had picks of my first trip. Took my best friend from high school who weighed 500+…outfitter gave us a 16 foot gruman… said they were used to “big’ guys but when we showed up…ole Cliff Wold’s eyes got real big. His legs fell asleep all the time he was so squished in…the canoe looked like a hat on him when portaging :) but man he was the best portager I’ve ever seen. He was 500+ but the most athletic big you’ve seen. Everyone we passed would try to be polite and say hi then do a double take and talk quietly. Somebody probably has picture of us paddling by. A little tiny white guy with a large black guy spilling outside the gruman circa 2000. I almost got him back to the BWCAW 10 years ago. He was down to a svelt 300 then, but he didn’t have enough PTO. Or so he said LOL T
Pinetree	05/12/2025 09:14AM   I see these canoes with little free board and also a huge person in them. At times it looks like the water level is almost equal to the top of the side. It is kind of scary. Once it looked like two huge Vikings offensive line paddling a canoe. capacity was reached.
Banksiana	05/12/2025 10:12AM   I think freeboard is over rated. I've paddled an Advantage for close to 40 years (solo with very limited free board) and I've only shipped water in small sips on days where I had no business trying to cross Basswood. As a soloist freeboard functions more as a wind catcher than a water barrier- weight is centered and the stems unburdened to rise and fall with the waves. On tandem trips I've yet to ship water in my MNII or Escape. Again the catching of the wind seems to me a much bigger problem than the shipping of water. I do travel relatively light and nearly all of my canoe partners have been sub 200#. Linked article is a sales brochure, its purpose is to sell a brand of boat.
JohnGalt	05/12/2025 07:02PM   I've not read the entire article though freeboard matters. I'd just stocked up on a resupply in my encounter & I was heavily laden, a motorboat came out of prairie portage & threw a wave at me that just about sunk me if it'd made it another inch over the gunwalls.
sns	05/12/2025 07:06PM   Banksiana: "I think freeboard is over rated. I've paddled an Advantage for close to 40 years (solo with very limited free board) and I've only shipped water in small sips on days where I had no business trying to cross Basswood. As a soloist freeboard functions more as a wind catcher than a water barrier- weight is centered and the stems unburdened to rise and fall with the waves. On tandem trips I've yet to ship water in my MNII or Escape. Again the catching of the wind seems to me a much bigger problem than the shipping of water. I do travel relatively light and nearly all of my canoe partners have been sub 200#. Linked article is a sales brochure, its purpose is to sell a brand of boat." Agreed, including crossing Basswood when I had no business doing so. My SR solo also has limited freeboard. SR is Savage River, right?
BEARnMOOSE	05/12/2025 08:22PM   sns: "Banksiana: "I think freeboard is over rated. I've paddled an Advantage for close to 40 years (solo with very limited free board) and I've only shipped water in small sips on days where I had no business trying to cross Basswood. As a soloist freeboard functions more as a wind catcher than a water barrier- weight is centered and the stems unburdened to rise and fall with the waves. On tandem trips I've yet to ship water in my MNII or Escape. Again the catching of the wind seems to me a much bigger problem than the shipping of water. I do travel relatively light and nearly all of my canoe partners have been sub 200#. Linked article is a sales brochure, its purpose is to sell a brand of boat." Agreed, including crossing Basswood when I had no business doing so. My SR solo also has limited freeboard. SR is Savage River, right?" Souris river
plmn	05/13/2025 06:45AM   Banksiana:"Linked article is a sales brochure, its purpose is to sell a brand of boat." Yep. Just like Souris River's superior ribs, epoxy, stability, etc, they do no wrong according to Joe. Souris River makes fine canoes, but take his claims with a grain of salt. Like others mention I have also been caught out in the wind with high freeboard and a light load and that is not a good experience.
boonie	05/12/2025 10:24AM   Yes, but how much freeboard is enough?
bottomtothetap	05/18/2025 11:20AM   Pinetree: "I see these canoes with little free board and also a huge person in them. At times it looks like the water level is almost equal to the top of the side. It is kind of scary. Once it looked like two huge Vikings offensive line paddling a canoe. capacity was reached." LOL. You imagined them as VIKINGS offensive line because what you were observing indicated that this trip would be a futile effort and there would certainly be dissapointment ahead!
jamotrade	05/13/2025 11:10AM   It's not the size of the freeboard, it's the motion of the ocean. LOL!
Pinetree	05/13/2025 10:38AM   plmn: "Banksiana:"Linked article is a sales brochure, its purpose is to sell a brand of boat." Yep. Just like Souris River's superior ribs, epoxy, stability, etc, they do no wrong according to Joe. Souris River makes fine canoes, but take his claims with a grain of salt. Like others mention I have also been caught out in the wind with high freeboard and a light load and that is not a good experience. " As you read, there is maybe not the perfect canoe that fits all needs and conditions. I guess we just have to buy more canoes.
HowardSprague	05/17/2025 09:03AM   “FREEBOOOAARD!!!!” That’s what I yell at concerts.
straighthairedcurly	05/17/2025 09:28PM   As the article mentions, it also matters whether a hull is designed to cut through waves or bob over them (buoyancy). I've paddled some canoes I hate because it cuts through the waves causing large waves to lap over the gunwales in the bow even though there seemed to be plenty of freeboard. And I've had canoes that have less freeboard but tend to ride up over waves instead of slice through. I don't like paddling my Advantage solo canoe with large following waves, not because the waves come over the gunwales so much as because they tend to act unexpectedly on the tumblehome and it gets twitchy.
timatkn	05/12/2025 04:29PM   BEARnMOOSE: "Any guesses on what Brand X was referring to in the article?" Any Brand NOT SR knowing Joe :) T
timatkn	05/12/2025 04:19PM   Of course it deserves attention but I lean more towards Banksiana on this. This is coming from a guy who owned a Souris River Quetico 18.5 for 18 years and loved it. IMHO what set that canoe above others was it's carrying weight, which has something to do with freeboard... my SR had a capacity topping out at 1200#, while my Northwoods 17 tops out at 650. So yes if I tried to max out weight, I'd be better off with the SR, but I don't so it doesn't matter. Joe has a tendency to exaggerate to make a point. He is Northwoods character and I really like him and appreciate his personality even if I disagree with him on A LOT of stuff :) T