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Boundary Waters Quetico Forum :: Listening Point - General Discussion :: Isle Royale update campers deaths
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| scat |
How about a new conspiracy theory - the father & son were from a suburb of Detroit. Could they have been involved in some kind of deeper criminal activity and the FBI has reason not to disclose info... This theory opens up to a lot of questions actually. I can name quite a few but I'll hold back till I get some feedback on that thought. |
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| scat |
Need a new conspiracy theory... |
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| timatkn |
Someday: "Well, when our usual moderate voice timatkn is throwing crazy conspiracy theories out there, I guess we’re in trouble. Dude, people who make 911 calls are heroes, not people to make conspiracy theories about. Figure out some other stupid outrageous example." Are you guys not getting it was an outrageous example on purpose or are ya just trolling me now :) T |
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| scat |
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| NEIowapaddler |
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| plmn |
NEIowapaddler: "There are 3 sure things in life. Death, taxes, and uninformed people on the Internet second-guessing what was or wasn't done in the wake of a tragedy. This thread is a prime example of that. So many assumptions and judgements being made by people who weren't there and most likely don't know all the facts." Which is why government transparency is so important. Which is not happening here. |
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| scat |
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| scat |
Oops, I almost did it again. Over and out. |
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| LindenTree |
scat: "I finally got up the nerve to listen to this. They, whoever ‘they’ are collectively, seem totally clueless on how to handle this situation. And at the end are joking at what a mess it is. Alarming…" I worked for the NPS for four years of my 30 year federal career and did a few SAR's for them during that time. When I heard that recording I thought the same thing, I was especially unimpressed by the person who identified himself as the chief ranger at Isle Royale NP. |
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| plmn |
OgemaBlackstone: "Hiker’s chilling 911 call warned of danger 41 hours before two bodies were found at Michigan’s remote Isle Royale I'm surprised somebody who is so poor at communicating was able to make Chief Ranger. Again, I doubt they could have done something quick enough to help, but still, it seems the more we find out, the worse authorities look. |
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| MikeinMpls |
Mike |
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| LindenTree |
After further investigation it appears that Antonio Robinson is not the superintendent of Isle Royale NP. |
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| Chieflonewatie |
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| scat |
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| scat |
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| LiquorPugs |
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| Someday |
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| Pinetree |
Roughly 40 hours before rangers said they were notified of two dead bodies in Isle Royale National Park, spurring them to hike overnight to a remote campground, a hiker called police and reported screaming and threats of murder and suicide at the site full of campers. “For about the last hour, hour plus, there is someone down there who is completely unhinged,” the caller told a Michigan police dispatcher in early June, according to audio of the call obtained Monday by the Minnesota Star Tribune. “He’s still screaming. We’ve heard him say ‘go ahead and kill yourself, I’m going to kill myself, I’m going to murder us all.’” The call raises new questions about the National Park Service‘s response to the deaths of a father and son in the rugged wilderness on the Lake Superior island off the coast of Grand Portage, Minn. Park service officials declined to answer questions about whether law enforcement responded to the site between the warning of potential violence at roughly 12:10 a.m. on June 7 and the time rangers arrived at the campground early June 9. The caller said it was a “very full campground” with at least three other groups in addition to their own and the person screaming. The caller said they packed up in the dark and left South Lake Desor Campground, on the island’s interior, and headed toward the tiny enclave of Windigo 11 miles west. “How scared we are, we’ll be there in an hour,” the person said. Michigan officials have identified the two dead men as 30-year-old Bradley Baird and 60-year-old John Baird, but federal investigators have said almost nothing else since the bodies were discovered. The lack of information released by federal investigators has fed rumors about the deaths and drawn criticism from some who rely on Isle Royale tourism for their businesses. The death certificates list the time of death as unknown and the cause as pending, though a local medical examiner told the Michigan news outlet MLive in late June that the suspected cause of death was murder-suicide and it’s not clear who died first. The home address listed on death certificates for both men is in Salem Township, outside of Detroit. In a news release about the incident, the park service said it got two separate reports of bodies at 4 p.m. on June 8, and then hiked the 11 miles overnight to confirm the deaths. The audio of the June 7 emergency call was released to the Minnesota Star Tribune by Michigan State Police in response to a request for records about the incident. |
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| Someday |
scat: "I prob should just shut up but my take from what I’ve read is one group left the area at 12:15 am very scared and when they got cell service called 911. The bodies were discovered by another group maybe a day or so later and a proper team was dispatched to investigate a horrible crime scene. My side what ‘law officer’ was expected to go to the site to prevent this from happening after the initial phone call at 1-2 am. And sad to say what happened happened by the time anyone could have got there. I think focusing on the response time is kinda searching for… Hindsight is always 20/20. I think that they do need to learn something from this situation. People alerted authorities 40 hours before two separate groups found dead bodies. I think we can do better than that. If it had been someone hurt with a satellite device, they probably would have flew in. |
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| scat |
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| timatkn |
Someday: "timatkn: "I think everyone has good points...we just don't know the details well enough. 2 things… 1. Is this sarcasm? Reddit poster was credible? You have to be joking…Reddit is a cesspool of fake information. You can’t make any reliable judgement off of any post. 2. I said my scenario was improbable??? I don’t believe it…just offering we are all making comments without the full story. My scenario could be true and it changes the whole narrative. There are just so many possibilities of the unknown. T |
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| LindenTree |
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| plmn |
OCDave: "Someday: "Hard to understand why they didn’t go in ASAP after the initial 911 call :( " That's not just a wilderness thing. Even in a city, as the saying goes, "when seconds count, the cops are only minutes away". |
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| OgemaBlackstone |
plmn: "OCDave: "Someday: "Hard to understand why they didn’t go in ASAP after the initial 911 call :( " How true! Yesterday a bad guy with mental illness walked the streets of NY city with a M4 carbine. Not one person tried to stop him. Walked into a building and killed many people. This gun is illegal in NY city, but it didn't stop him. Maybe the only thing that could have stopped him is a good guy/gal with a gun. I have had a carry permit for 40+ years. If I carried in NY city, I would go to jail. It is a shame what has happened to our people...no one wants to help or get involved. |
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| scat |
There is no one to blame here, it sounds like they had to pool some significant resources to clean the whole thing up, 2 dead bodies and all on a remote island campsite. |
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| Sunburn |
scat: "I prob should just shut up but my take from what I’ve read is one group left the area at 12:15 am very scared and when they got cell service called 911. The bodies were discovered by another group maybe a day or so later and a proper team was dispatched to investigate a horrible crime scene. My side what ‘law officer’ was expected to go to the site to prevent this from happening after the initial phone call at 1-2 am. And sad to say what happened happened by the time anyone could have got there. I think focusing on the response time is kinda searching for… Unfortunately, the reluctance of the involved federal agencies to give out the typical level of basic information and follow-up that the public has come to expect with these types of crimes may lead some folks (rightly or wrongly) to be suspicious about why the federal officials are being so secretive concerning a murder-suicide that should be fairly straight forward after the initial remote location challenges have been delt with. |
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| plmn |
Someday: "scat: "I prob should just shut up but my take from what I’ve read is one group left the area at 12:15 am very scared and when they got cell service called 911. The bodies were discovered by another group maybe a day or so later and a proper team was dispatched to investigate a horrible crime scene. My side what ‘law officer’ was expected to go to the site to prevent this from happening after the initial phone call at 1-2 am. And sad to say what happened happened by the time anyone could have got there. I think focusing on the response time is kinda searching for… Yes. While it's true that it's unlikely they would have gotten there in time to prevent anything, if they completely ignored it, that is going to be hard to justify and should be scrutinized. That doesn't mean they should be expected to immediately fly in at every report, but doing nothing isn't acceptable either. And maybe they did do something, or at least followed a set procedure, but as Sunburn said, they aren't being very transparent about it so far. |
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| OgemaBlackstone |
link to 911 call |
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| Jackfish |
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| Someday |
LindenTree: "What I can't understand is that Antonio Robinson (sp) did not identify himself as the chief LEO ranger for Isle Royale to dispatch. It makes me think he is the Superintendent of Isle Royale NP and not an LEO/officer, and that is why he sounds really shook up. If he was an LEO he should have been able to remain calm. As a firefighter I was trained to remain calm, be clear and concise in the most trying situations when S--t was hitting the fan, I know LEO's are trained to the same if not higher levels. Antonio Robinson was neither calm, clear or concise. It seems that he is LEO according to his Linkedin? “Fake it till you make it.” |
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| Someday |
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| plmn |
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| timatkn |
plmn: "The campground was full but nobody else heard or reported anything? At least we now have confirmation that authorities should have acted sooner. Still a lot that isn't making much sense. " I am guessing there was no cell service to call from the campsite. My experience is most of the Island is like that. I am surprised anyone could call at all. I’d surmise the only reason the one group could call is they probably hiked out and got to higher ground. At this point hearing the campground was full, I am glad no other groups were hurt. T |
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| OCDave |
Someday: "Hard to understand why they didn’t go in ASAP after the initial 911 call :( " There are inherent risks when entering the wilderness. Add that law enforcement officer may not be immediately responsive to reports of verbal threats to the list of those risks. |
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| OgemaBlackstone |
scat: "What is a ranger from Windigo going to do to subdue an enraged man with a deadly weapon at say 1-2 am after the initial call was made. Explain that to me. Is a ranger qualified to deal with a situation like this. I guess I just don’t agree with finding fault with the ‘authorities’. Unless they could dispatch a SWAT team or a squad of Navy Seals to the site in an hour this tragedy was unavoidable. And I don’t think the lack of details provided so far are covering up for the time it took to respond. That doesn’t fly.Simple answer would be send one of the many armed officer from the island to look. There are many armed officer on the Island. This is first hand info...I have seen dozens of uniformed officers open carrying on the island with my own eyes. Some from Michigan also DNR, conservation officers (Fish cop), Keweenaw County sheriff, etc... What is your answer?? You are defending those that did NOTHING! Maybe you would have done the same. |
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| pleflar |
Help was not hours of hiking or anytime in a helicopter or floatplane away. Help was minutes away with a group of concerned hikers. |
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| scat |
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| bnics |
The reality is we don't know the exact timeline of the events that occurred. And we may not for awhile. Those who have been to Isle Royale (or any other wilderness area) can probably agree that it would have been impossible for law enforcement (or any enforcement) to get there in time to stop this tragedy from happening. I personally believe that to be true even if there was cell service at the camp where this occurred. As far as the lack of transparency, I too am frustrated. However, I think there's a limit to what our expectations should be. Give agencies the proper time to investigate what happened and identify gaps in the process once they have all the facts. Is that what they're doing? I can't say for certain, I'm just a member of the public. I also struggle with a demand (or our expectation) that they tell us everything. I'm not sure. I have conflicting thoughts. It's important for us to remember that a family has lost a father and a son. A horrific tragedy that I hope all of us only have to read about, and never experience in real life. |
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| OgemaBlackstone |
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| OCDave |
My now college aged son lost a high school classmate in an extremely similar father/son tragedy a few years ago. The brief e-mail from the high school announcing the student and his fathers death was accompanied by an invitation to grief counseling and an thank you for respecting the family's privacy during this troubling time. None of us know what happened with respect to the family or with the Park Service. Perhaps because it really isn't any of our business? |
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| YaMarVa |
None of us know what happened with respect to the family or with the Park Service. Perhaps because it really isn't any of our business? " This is the correct answer. Those complaining about a lack of transparency, unless you're the responsive law enforcement agency or the immediate family, you have no need to know anything more than what has been released. |
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| scat |
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| Pinetree |
Maybe they just don't completely know how it went down? |
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| plmn |
OCDave: "None of us know what happened with respect to the family or with the Park Service. Perhaps because it really isn't any of our business? " Murder in a national park and law enforcement's response to it (or lack of) is very much public business. |
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| scat |
Time line is the original call was 12:15 am June 7. Apparently no action was taken till 2 reports of bodies at 4 pm June 8. Rangers hiked the 11 miles overnight and arrived on site early morning June 9. Simple math says that is the 40 hours. So I can see why there is a question about why no action was taken before the report at 4 pm June 8. No clue what could have been done tho. |
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| timatkn |
On the surface it appears authorities ignored a 911 call or at best had a delayed response. But we just don't have all the details...we may never get them. I mean maybe the person who called 911 has called before for frivolous reasons or has history of fake calls. Very improbable but I am just pointing out there are possibilities we probably can't even conceive. T |
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| Someday |
scat: "What were a group of ‘concerned hikers’ supposed to do. Explain that. " +1 |
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| Someday |
timatkn: "I think everyone has good points...we just don't know the details well enough. Really? I think that the original caller who had posted on Reddit in a very respectful manner is pretty credible. |
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| Someday |
pleflar: "If we're so concerned about why the NPS (very recently de-funded and lacking in staff) did not AQAP decend upon the situation with full force we should also consider why a "very full" campsite of wilderness hikers did not also immediately decend upon the situation. Some people are more equipped to handle emergencies than others. Don’t blame them. |
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| pleflar |
Someday: "scat: "What were a group of ‘concerned hikers’ supposed to do. Explain that. " Seriously, you two are having me on. You hear a situation in which someone, probably both people, need help...and you just turn your back and wonder why SWAT wasn't there faster? I can't and won't describe all possible situations in the backcountry, but the least likely I can think of is calling for the cavalry. When we go into the wilderness we ought to be more like our ancestors (my opinion, I suppose). If someone needs assistance I assist. I may not be familiar with a particular situation, that doesn't absolve me of my social obligations to help others. Help your fellow human beings. And have one person call for the cavalry while you keep everyone alive. |
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| Someday |
timatkn: "Someday: "Well, when our usual moderate voice timatkn is throwing crazy conspiracy theories out there, I guess we’re in trouble. Dude, people who make 911 calls are heroes, not people to make conspiracy theories about. Figure out some other stupid outrageous example." Figure out a new one. The people that hiked out in the middle of the night and tried to call 911 for the help that obviously was needed were heroes. Those are facts. |
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| Someday |
pleflar: "Someday: "scat: "What were a group of ‘concerned hikers’ supposed to do. Explain that. " I never said that I wouldn’t try to do something, and I’m a chick. The cavalry didn’t come FYI. |
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| bnics |
For what it’s worth, I’ll help a fellow human anytime I can. I like to think I may have tried to help in this scenario but I know…I’d be scared as hell. Especially considering I’d probably only have a friend or 2 and a pocketknife + my trekking poles as weapons. I don’t know. In the middle of the night, away from civilization? I’m probably freaking out. What I’m trying to say is we don’t know. Nobody here has the answers and hindsight is always 20/20. I wish we could stop arguing about everything. There’s a human being on the other side of every message. I’m a human being right now typing this out. |
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| OgemaBlackstone |
pleflar: "If we're so concerned about why the NPS (very recently de-funded and lacking in staff) did not AQAP descend upon the situation with full force we should also consider why a "very full" campsite of wilderness hikers did not also immediately descend upon the situation. How true and how sad!! |
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| cmanimal |
I just have lots of questions, that will probably never get answered. Where was the Michigan Police dispatcher. At a minimum we know that person was 55 miles away (Ferry distance from copper harbor to rock harbor) and potentially farther, so I'm very amazed they got cell service. I'm sure the middle of the night helped. Did the police dispatcher ever contacted the NPS? If so how? Did they talk to someone at the office in Houghton or someone on the Island (sat phone), or leave a message or.....? It appears that the first time the NPS in Windigo heard about it was the afternoon of the 8th. Why didn't the original caller report it the morning of the 7th when they got to Windigo? If they did, why didn't the NPS react then? Its been a long time since I've been to Isle Royal, but I was impressed with the ranger we encountered on that trip. He came in on a boat to daisy farm literally leapt from the boat as it got close to the dock and sprinted up into the woods, he was on a mission. |
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| timatkn |
scat: "Reddit has nothing to do with it. Read pinetree’s original post and everything is explained as to the call made and what was said is verified. That makes your #2 assumption ridiculous." So…I wasn’t replying to anything you said. I was replying specifically to a post referencing Reddit?? So it is relevant… I didn’t make any “assumption”…I was merely giving an example highlighting that NONE OF US WERE THERE and we really don’t know what the circumstances were. There are literally a thousand scenarios that could have happened that we aren’t privy too. AND each possible scenario could change what we think. I specifically said the scenario I stated was unlikely and I didn’t believe it…it’s just an example…and BTW it is still possible. You cannot disprove it. That’s the point right?? We don’t have any details… I mean previously someone on this website made up a story that the people were shot. Even though all the campsites were full…the campsites are all on top of each other and NO ONE reported a gun shot. The scenario was ridiculous too BUT still possible. We can’t disprove it… We simply don’t know…that is the whole point of my post and example… T |
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| plmn |
I highly doubt most people here would walk up in the middle of the night in the middle of nowhere to an unhinged man who has the means and intent to kill. But it's easy to claim so. |
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| timatkn |
plmn: "I don't blame the campers for not intervening. I've taken self defense classes. My potential use of deadly force is to protect me or my family only. I'm almost certainly not going to risk my life and/or legal consequences by blindly inserting myself into somebody else's dispute. My family depends on me and they come first. I think it also depends on who you are with. If I am camping with a bunch of my friends (all guys)…we might have intervened. That’s still a big maybe. If it was just myself and my kids or my family, no way. As you stated, my first duty is to protect my family and that definitely is not inserting myself into a potentially dangerous situation in the middle of no where. It’s not like people don’t care or don’t want to help, but inserting yourself into what sounds like a domestic violence situation is adding a lot of risk you may not have any control over…as you stated not just physically, but even legal risk. It’s just not a simple answer. I don’t judge anyone at all that was at that campground. T |
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| Pinetree |
I see the FBI did check the site out. |
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| cmanimal |
That the original call was received in Thunder Bay Canada, makes sense. I vaguely recall that being a possibility as part of the orientation we got years ago. It would add some clarification if the conversations were time stamped (for us to hear) and to understand who the people (position/ employer, not name) are in the 2nd part of the recording. |