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Boundary Waters Quetico Forum :: Group Forum: Solo Tripping :: permit question?
 
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Amok
12/27/2010 07:13PM
  
As long as you are not violating the 9 person/4 canoe rule, I don't see why you couldn't.
 
bogwalker
12/28/2010 07:10AM
  
To me the whole thing seems like a moot point.


If a person is in the BW legally on their own permit and chooses to join another group that is also in the BW legally and by joining that group the size of this new group still is under the 4 watercraft 9 people limit it should be ok from my perspective.


The permit system is in place to try to insure there enough campsites in an area. If 2 permits actually are only using one campsite it makes it a little easier for everyone else to secure a campsite. I'd rather have them group up and take only one site, then stay separate and use two campsites to be within the letter of the law.


One thing to remember is the USFS would prfer you limit your PMA group size to 6 or less, not the typical 9. It is not a hard rule, but based on the available places to camp within a PMA, and the need to keep the size of the sites small to leave the area more pristine, it is a good rule to follow so you do not have to make larger areas for large group camps.



 
ClarkPeters
12/27/2010 06:36PM
  
Technically speaking, this would be a violation of the rules. You can't enter on one permit and spend time with a group that entered on another permit. It's the same interpretation of the rules that has, allegedly, resulted in people being ticketed for being on portage trails at the same time, or camping together.


Practically speaking, as long as the group didn't exceed nine people or four boats, the only way the enforcers would know is if they started comparing permit stubs (The little tickets clipped from the main permit that are supposed to be kept in each boat.) The stubs are filled out when the permit is picked up.

Each stub has the name of one person who will be paddling that boat, theoretically for the whole trip. The only paper you would have is your original permit, so you couldn't show that you are a part of the group.

I can't picture the rangers checking that closely unless there were bigger problems.

Pete
 
kanoes
12/27/2010 06:57PM
  
"Technically speaking, this would be a violation of the rules. You can't enter on one permit and spend time with a group that entered on another permit."


please find that rule and post it here. thanks.
 
boonie
12/27/2010 07:54PM
  
Pete,


My understanding has always been that not all members of a party need to be present when the permit is picked up, so I don't see why his name couldn't be listed also.
 
billconner
12/28/2010 06:51AM
  
quote boonie: "Pete,



My understanding has always been that not all members of a party need to be present when the permit is picked up, so I don't see why his name couldn't be listed also. "


True but "•You must enter the BWCAW at the entry point and on the entry date shown on your permit." so he could not join them in the BWCAW.(But could meet at entry point and re-enter.)


I thought that one campsite, one permit, but seems I am likely wrong. It appears you could have 9 people on 9 permits in one camp (5 hikers/swimmers/water walkers though to respect the 4 canoe/kayak rule).


I seem to recall that Quetico limits a campsite to a single group on a single permit.

 
billconner
12/28/2010 08:53AM
  
I thought the permit system was to keep the total number of people in the woods at a sustainable level, and took into account the statistics of how many people for a given number of permits. I'd rather have fewer people spread over the campsites than have all of the campsites maxed. Bless the soloers.
 
ClarkPeters
12/28/2010 10:10AM
  
My permit from last summer says, "This permit authorizes the Group Leader to enter the BWCA Wilderness according to the information specified." The information I specified was the number of boats, the group size, the entry date, and the entry point.

My interpretation is that, if I included someone who was already in the BWCA as part of my group, then I have lied about something. That person isn't entering at the EP and date listed on the permit.

Also, at the bottom of the permit, the "leader" of each additional boat is listed. Those guys signed the stubs at the permit issuing station.

Why not call a USFS station and ask them?

Pete
 
Amok
12/28/2010 01:35PM
  
you certainly could do that to erase any doubt, Pete :)
 
mr.barley
12/28/2010 03:54PM
  
We've shared our site with a couple who couldn't find a site and it was getting late. 2 permits, one site.
 
rookie in 03
12/08/2010 06:12PM
  
If you don't come out, you don't need another permit. You can join the group as long as it doesn't exceed the limits. You don't need to pay again either. We have done this before, even got checked by a Ranger and there is nothing wrong with it.
 
rookie in 03
12/08/2010 07:58PM
  
There is no limit on length of stay, only days in the same site.
 
boonie
12/08/2010 09:34PM
  
Not everyone needs to be present, but the leader, or an alternate leader, listed on the permit must pick it up, i.e. if you're the only listed leader on the permit, you'll have to be present to pick it up. So you'll need to make sure one of the others is listed as the leader on the group permit.
 
butthead
12/28/2010 02:09PM
  
"My interpretation is that, if I included someone who was already in the BWCA as part of my group, then I have lied about something. That person isn't entering at the EP and date listed on the permit."
ClarkPeters,
I have been on several group solo and mixed trips that departed individually on separate permits, different days and EPs. Planning had been discussed with FS employees at the time of permit pick up, and we have been checked by rangers at shared camps. Only comment from FS employees/rangers, was to have a good trip.
Not an official answer, but personal experience.


butthead



 
oldgentleman
12/28/2010 10:19PM
  
A friend and I once rendezvoused with two other guys who had gone in a week earlier. We had preplanned to meet on Ima lake. I said that to USFS personnel and Bert at Piragis. Neither indicated there was any problem. Two groups, two permits, 4 guys and two canoes.


Another time we allowed another group to camp a night with us, 8 people (and 2 dogs), 4 canoes and 2 permits, no problem.
 
boonie
12/28/2010 10:46PM
  
I think Bogwalker probably has it right. Deepwood wouldn't need to be present when the permit is picked up and wouldn't need to be listed on that permit. It might be a problem if they did that, but doesn't seem to be necessary. He already has his own permit and has entered at the date and place on his permit. Once he has done that, he can go wherever he wants and stay as long as he likes. I don't know of anything that specifically prohibits him from joining the others if the total is less than 9/4. I am not aware of anything that says 2 people with 2 permits cannot travel together. But I am not an expert on the rules. It does seem that several people have done this with the USFS's knowledge and no problem.


Bill, I have always heard it as one permit, one campsite...not one campsite, one permit, which is not the same thing. I believe the maximum group size controls the maximum number of people who could enter an EP, the number of permits controls the maximum number of groups that can enter an EP, and the number of permits available at an EP is related to the number of campsites available. It doesn't seem that 2 permits, one campsite would violate any of these principles, as long as the total group size meets all the restrictions. However, it does seem that the opposite - one permit, two campsites, would violate the principle that relates permits to campsite availability. I am not familiar with Q regs though.


Maybe deepwood will call USFS and get clarification.
 
Beaverjack
01/07/2011 04:36PM
  
When applying online for the lottery, I noticed that there is no way to indicate a solo trip. You must have a minimum of 2 entered on the number in the party.
 
PJ
12/29/2010 11:23AM
  
I was "group soloing" with two others. We each had our own permits. We got checked by the FS while we were all camped at one site. There was no problem.
 
rookie in 03
01/07/2011 05:33PM
  
You get reimbursed for the other fee.
 
rookie in 03
12/29/2010 06:14PM
  
In '08 our group of 8 entered on 2 consecutive days. At the Ely Ranger station we were told as long as we keep to the 9/4 rule it was fine to camp at the same site. The last 2 years we entered on the same day under 2 permits. The GM ranger station told us the same thing. We only did this in case no larger sites were available.
 
deepwood
12/08/2010 05:52PM
  
Does everyone in the party need to be present when the permit is being issued?
I'm doing a solo early next may. Immediately following my solo I am doing a group trip. The group is planning on doing a PMA trip. I am hoping I am able to do my solo and then meet them in the BW near the PMA we are planning on going to? I guees I am wondering if I have to come out of the BW and get the permit with them or if I am able to meet them out on the water?
 
Exo
12/08/2010 07:56PM
  
Is there a max day limit to a permit?


BTW, I'm jealous...a solo trip..then meet up with the people. Giving them a grocery list I take it?
 
deepwood
12/09/2010 04:19PM
  
Thanks, very helpful as always!


@exo- I will probably be doing all the dehydrating for my solo and the group trip, so I don't feel too terrible about it. I do think it will be fun though to be solo for a week and then meet up with my buddies out in the middle of nowhere.