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03/03/2021 06:27PM |
arnesr: "yogi59weedr: "I don't really see how my 1/8 oz jig that I break off in 20 feet of water is going to harm anything."
It's not, you are exactly correct yogi59weedr.
I have read several studies on this topic as I am an avid jig fisherman and make my own as well. In every study I have read, the researchers focus on banning lead in general, but if you dig down into the research it is primarily hunting lead shot that is the primary cause of lead poisoning in waterfowl, still today. "
Except for the part where he's wrong and it does harm things.
Got any links to these studies where the primary type of lead poisoning in waterfowl comes from bird shot? Even if we take what you claim at face value it sounds like there is still a percentage that comes from fishing as a source. If there's still a percentage there's still harm.
Personally I'd rather change and improve the ways I interact with the wilderness, rather than claiming known toxic chemicals probably aren't a big deal. We don't paint our living spaces with lead anymore. Don't paint birds living spaces with it either. Seems simple.
I'm not saying stop using everything you have. I'm just saying the idea behind the law is pretty good and we could probably start thinking about transitioning now to makes things better on ourselves and the birds.
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03/03/2021 08:24PM |
Durza: "
Got any links to these studies where the primary type of lead poisoning in waterfowl comes from bird shot? "
Just google "lead poisoning waterfowl" and you will get plenty of hits. They all deal with lead shot.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13280-019-01159-0
Pinetree, thanks for the Ducks Unlimited reference, again, lead shot is the source.
mschi772 posted a reference that "Studies in the northeast have found that lead tackle accounts for something like 40% of all adult loon mortality". He/she also posted a photo with a picture of lead shot. I'm assuming the lead tackle referenced also included lead shot.....primarily lead shot.
My point is, lead fishing tackle and lead hunting shot are two separate issues, but they are often lumped together to further an agenda. I have no doubt that some birds or other animals have been harmed by lead fishing tackle. Harm has been done no doubt, but on a very minor scale when you look at total species population levels. You have to strike a balance.
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03/09/2021 08:14AM |
mschi772: "so your saying i'm right , TYshock: "i'm all for the change ,
one thing i'm not so sure of the loon studies is ,,,, i'v had loons very close to me as i've fished , one of my coolest experience was these two loons went back and fourth under our canoe 3 time and popped up 3' from the canoe and proceeded to move to the front of the canoe and escort us out this little bottleneck bay. but what i have noticed with loons very close their eye sight is extremely good and have never fallen for a lure, ever, not even a glance. this is in gin clear waters.
i think the lead comes from a different source ,,, but i still feel the lead should also not be part of the BW water as more and more lead head jigs get snag and become a permanent fixture in the BW , yes some may say so many parts per million PPM , but isnt less better ?"
Loons aren't taking lead tackle right off the lines. They're finding dislodged jigs and sinkers at the bottom and mistaking them for rocks, or they're ingesting lead bits when they eat fish that have ingested lead bits. Regardless of what you think loons do or do not do, the fact is: necropsies of loons find fatal lead poisoning and actual pieces of lead fishing tackle in the loons. No one is *guessing* about what kills these birds."
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02/28/2021 01:43AM |
Im old school. But I have big ears.
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02/28/2021 07:49AM |
A search on the quote yields this article.
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02/28/2021 08:32AM |
yogi59weedr: "Say a loon ingests a 1/8 oz split shot. How long does that take to pass through the system.
Compared to other forms of non toxic split shot.
I don't really see how my 1/8 oz jig that I break off in 20 feet of water is going to harm anything."
Studies in the northeast have found that lead tackle accounts for something like 40% of all adult loon mortality. Lead poisoning is a slow and agonizing death for a bird, and the amount of lead it takes is spectacularly little. Not only do the birds sometimes ingest it directly, but they also often ingest lead when they consume fish that have lead tackle hooked to them or that they've eaten.
It doesn't matter if the split shot passes through their system or not. They're as good as dead the moment they ingest it as fatal poisoning will have occurred while it was in their system.
I am a wilderness enthusiast like everyone here, but I also have a degree in biology and worked as an ecologist for about 9 years. My partner is also a biologist working and specializing in bird management and conservation. Lead tackle and ammunition is a devastating threat to many birds, right up there with the other worsts of the worst like feral and free-roaming domestic cats and glass windows that has not been manufactured or modified to be bird safe.
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02/24/2021 12:40PM |
Banning lead jigs and tackle
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02/28/2021 07:34PM |
yogi59weedr: "I don't really see how my 1/8 oz jig that I break off in 20 feet of water is going to harm anything."
It's not, you are exactly correct yogi59weedr. If I lose a jig while fishing one of three things has likely happened. 1. I snagged a log and I am unable to retrieve the jig resulting in the line breaking. 2. Similar to #1, my jig is wedged between two rocks at depth and after making every effort I am unable to retrieve it. 3. My jig is lost to a fish either due to line abrasion/pike or the fish is Moby Dick. #1 and #2 is going to result in the jig remaining in place for a very long time. #3 certainly is not going to wind up in a loon, but perhaps an eagle could ingest it, but it is far from certain to happen, in fact it is still very unlikely.
I have read several studies on this topic as I am an avid jig fisherman and make my own as well. In every study I have read, the researchers focus on banning lead in general, but if you dig down into the research it is primarily hunting lead shot that is the primary cause of lead poisoning in waterfowl, still today. This is after it has been banned from hunting use for many years. It just makes sense if you think about it. Duck/'Goose hunters hunt primarily over shallow water and each shell contains hundreds of tiny shot. These shallow water areas are the areas where waterfowl are likely to ingest small gravel to aid their digestion. The lead shot is still out there, even if it is not used today.
On the one hand I understand from a LNT perspective we don't want to be littering a toxic substance even if is unseen under water. The fact is though, that a lead jig will not dissolve and pollute the water to any real extent, it is only toxic if ingested. I think it is more important to balance our use of resources to promote them and encourage their use. Fishing, even with lead tackle, is much better use of the resource compared to other activities such as mining which would poison more than a handful of waterfowl.
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02/24/2021 06:30PM |
I’d be curious to to know if this applies to downrigger balls or lead core line. Rigger balls are already expensive, can’t imagine what it’d cost a commercial guide on Superior to replace all that with tungsten.
I haven’t read the bill but I think it allows a few years lead-in time for businesses and anglers alike to pivot, not a scenario where it passes and BOOM, lead is banned.
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02/24/2021 06:59PM |
Economic impacts versus environmental issues. Finding the balancing point will be tricky.
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02/24/2021 07:11PM |
So even in hunting which is well ahead of fishing, it's still not an all or nothing game. (unless you're in waterfowl)
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02/24/2021 07:15PM |
It gives MN businesses until 2024 to stop manufacturing them, and gives anglers until 2025 to stop using them.
I support that. It gives people time to transition.
Tungsten jigs are the bee's knees in reality. It will just take folks time to adjust.
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02/25/2021 10:42AM |
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03/07/2021 07:01PM |
I am just curious if anyone has seen any fewer loons or swans?
I don't pay a lot of attention to swans unless they wake me up at 5 in the morning, but loons appear more plentiful than ever.
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03/07/2021 07:03PM |
adam: ".
I am just curious if anyone has seen any fewer loons or swans?
I don't pay a lot of attention to swans unless they wake me up at 5 in the morning, but loons appear more plentiful than ever."
Swan numbers-meaning Trumpeter Swans are more abundant now than at least 80 years. They weren't really introduced back into Minnesota until 1988-1991 by MN. Nongame program. Numbers took of from there. In the fields today around home I seen over 100 out eating corn.
Yes that doesn't mean a lot aren't dying.
The Loon like many species came back strong after DDT and other insecticides took a huge toll on them . Also progressive programs on MN lakes protecting natural and building artificial floating loon nests. Again that does not mean loons are not dying from lead.
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02/25/2021 12:27PM |
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02/25/2021 03:02PM |
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03/05/2021 10:13PM |
I swapped out lead slip sinkers with brass ones.
I swapped out lead split shot with tin.
The jigs were not easy to swap out so I only buy painted jig heads. I doubt the paint is really helping the birds who swallow the lead but it is reducing the lead on my fingers.
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02/25/2021 09:08PM |
I've literally fished there for 40 years..
At 1/8 oz jigs, I've literally lost 10s of pounds of lead heads in a 30 yd stretch of shore line..and thats just me.
Knew a couple guys that used to put old wire bed springs about a cast from shore. Come back and get them in the fall.Full of all kinds of tackle....
They told me that and I replied " you fing hillbillys."
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03/09/2021 07:18PM |
shock: "mschi772: "so your saying i'm right , TY"shock: "i'm all for the change ,
one thing i'm not so sure of the loon studies is ,,,, i'v had loons very close to me as i've fished , one of my coolest experience was these two loons went back and fourth under our canoe 3 time and popped up 3' from the canoe and proceeded to move to the front of the canoe and escort us out this little bottleneck bay. but what i have noticed with loons very close their eye sight is extremely good and have never fallen for a lure, ever, not even a glance. this is in gin clear waters.
i think the lead comes from a different source ,,, but i still feel the lead should also not be part of the BW water as more and more lead head jigs get snag and become a permanent fixture in the BW , yes some may say so many parts per million PPM , but isnt less better ?"
Loons aren't taking lead tackle right off the lines. They're finding dislodged jigs and sinkers at the bottom and mistaking them for rocks, or they're ingesting lead bits when they eat fish that have ingested lead bits. Regardless of what you think loons do or do not do, the fact is: necropsies of loons find fatal lead poisoning and actual pieces of lead fishing tackle in the loons. No one is *guessing* about what kills these birds."
No. You seemed to be suggesting that fatal lead poisoning isn't coming from fishing tackle, but fatal lead poisoning IS quite definitely coming from fishing tackle.
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03/06/2021 07:58AM |
Another example of the rationale for removing lead from the environment. In this case, there are plenty of viable alternatives.
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03/09/2021 02:55PM |
thegildedgopher: "RatherbeDuffing: "God forbid we let the most minor of inconvenience hinder your hobby. You can't replace your jig heads in 3 years? Really? "
While I favor the bill, I don't see how this attitude will help to change minds.
For someone who has invested in bulk soft lead and runs several different molds, I don't think it's fair to downplay the impact this change will have. Casting a tungsten jig head or weight is a whole different ballgame. If a person is already used to saving money by making their own weights and jigs, this will be a more significant burden than it is for a guy like me buys a couple packs of jigs a year."
What % of the fishing population makes their own weights and jigs? Sorry, if this was going to be implemented in May of this year I would get it. I don't have the same empathy if you have 3 years to change over.
Even if the impact on Loons is overstated, having lead sitting at the bottom of one of our most valuable resources in MN is just dumb when there are other viable options.
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03/09/2021 07:39PM |
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02/26/2021 09:56AM |
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02/26/2021 08:19AM |
HighnDry: "I read somewhere that the other option is to manufacture them out of tin. I don't know how practical or costly that is....plus then you have 'tin' problem...but perhaps that's less toxic"
I've also heard Bismuth and Steel thrown around. I dunno about toxicity of either of those. There is at least one company advertising coated, non-toxic tin weights.
Savage Voyageur: "I switched over my ice fishing jigs to Tungsten about 130 jig heads, and my fly fishing nymphs to Tungsten about 150 of them. I also switched my split shot to Tungsten. The only problem I will have is my bead chain keel weights. Nobody makes them in anything other than lead. My lead Walleye jig heads total about 300 and they will be expensive to replace. "
FYI, flies are specifically excluded from this bill, and beaded keel weights are OK if they are over 1 oz OR greater than 2.5 inches in length. I'd expect that as legislation like this becomes more prevalent, the market of non-lead items will expand as well. And hopefully a great supply and market competition will bring the prices down a bit from where they are?
yogi59weedr: "I fish from shore at my Mississippi River dam, great spot.
I've literally fished there for 40 years..
At 1/8 oz jigs, I've literally lost 10s of pounds of lead heads in a 30 yd stretch of shore line..and thats just me.
Knew a couple guys that used to put old wire bed springs about a cast from shore. Come back and get them in the fall.Full of all kinds of tackle....
They told me that and I replied " you fing hillbillys.""
That's hilarious yogi :D Did they snag the springs from a boat in the fall?
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02/26/2021 11:14AM |
Time to switch from lead fishing use.
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03/07/2021 09:23AM |
We all like having loons and swans around right? The market has not done it on its own accord. I was just at Fleet Farm and asked " where are your lead free sinkers and jigs?" reply : "we don't have any"
Thorne Brothers has only 3-4 different tungsten jig options with 5-6 colors to choose from and a few sinker options in their whole shop.
I'm trying to switch to all non-lead tackle on my own, but it's impossible with the lack of options right now. As a hunter, I switched to full copper bullets for deer hunting 3 years ago. I would have done it sooner had I been able to find the ammo. It costs a little more, but I partake with a clearer conscience.
Here is the house bill text : https://www.revisor.mn.gov/bills/text.php?session=ls92&number=HF157&session_number=0&session_year=2021&version=list
One thing that I would like to see in the future is a buy-back program for anglers with a pile of lead in their tackle boxes. Would other people support something like that?
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02/27/2021 09:26AM |
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03/07/2021 11:06PM |
Basspro69: "There are so many other options that don’t affect the environment that this should be a no brainer but we will see ."
Agree such a small sacrifice if one at all and talking like 3 year grace period or so.
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02/27/2021 07:21AM |
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02/27/2021 07:41AM |
If I start to replenish my split shot and jig collection now I might be able to use it up by 2025,so its really no biggie to me.
Im thinking maybe use cement to mold the lead head jigs.
Just kidding. But wait. Maybe thats how I'll make my 1st million.. stranger things are happening every day
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02/26/2021 08:50PM |
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02/26/2021 10:49PM |
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02/26/2021 11:00PM |
Compared to other forms of non toxic split shot.
I don't really see how my 1/8 oz jig that I break off in 20 feet of water is going to harm anything.
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02/26/2021 11:45PM |
yogi59weedr: "Say a loon ingests a 1/8 oz split shot. How long does that take to pass through the system.
Compared to other forms of non toxic split shot.
I don't really see how my 1/8 oz jig that I break off in 20 feet of water is going to harm anything."
MN DNR:
Loons routinely swallow pea-sized pebbles on the bottom of lakes. The pebbles pass to the stomach and help in digestion, like grit in the stomach of a chicken. When fishing sinkers are lost during fishing and drop to the bottom of the lake, they can be picked up by loons or by waterfowl like ringneck ducks and trumpeter swans. Some loons also swallow fishing jigs when they mistake them for minnows. As the lead sinker or jig is exposed to the acids of the stomach and to other pebbles, lead enters the bird's system and slowly poisons the bird.
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02/27/2021 09:24AM |
yogi59weedr: "Why are we switching to barbless hooks?
I know certain places require them.
Pros and cons."
For me the only con is potentially losing a fish. Smallies specifically I think have a decent shot at throwing a barbless hook the way they fight and jump.
If you are a C&R guy barbless makes a lot of sense. Easier to get the fish free and back in the water more quickly, no barbs getting stuck in gills, etc. the If you’re out for a limit, consider switching to barbless after you’ve hit your target of keepers if you wanna keep fishing.
For me the biggest pro is safety for everyone in my boat. And it doesn’t cost a dime to convert a handful of your baits/hooks to barbless. Just pinch em down or grind with a dremel.
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02/27/2021 08:38PM |
yogi59weedr: "I would be curious if autopsy was done on the swans.Seems odd every year they die. "
Usually there is a autopsy. Also some areas have quite a bit of lead on the bottom. Also I know it takes a while for lead poisoning to take effect. How long?
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02/27/2021 09:15AM |
I know certain places require them.
Pros and cons.
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02/27/2021 12:13PM |
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02/27/2021 08:49AM |
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02/28/2021 01:47AM |
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02/27/2021 12:05PM |
HighnDry: "We'll, good point. That deserves a different thread all to itself!"
It just barely dropped off page 1.
Thread
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02/27/2021 07:08PM |
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02/27/2021 08:33PM |
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02/27/2021 08:42PM |
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03/03/2021 07:05PM |
Lead poisoning, which occurs when waterfowl ingest spent lead shot, is a unique disease because it is caused entirely by humans. Ingestion of just a few pellets can cause death, and in some cases, a single pellet may prove lethal. At one time, an estimated 3,000 tons of lead shot were being deposited by hunters in North American wetlands each year, and the number of spent pellets in some wetlands averaged nearly 70,000 per hectare. Within the United States alone, historic annual losses of waterfowl from lead poisoning were estimated at between 1.6 million and 2.4 million birds. Afflicted birds often take several weeks to die and are characterized by an unwillingness to fly, "roof-shaped" wings, severe emaciation, including a condition known as "hatchet breast," and bright green staining around the vent. While some lead hot spots remain and periodic die-offs still occur, the introduction of nontoxic shot has curtailed lead shot deposition in North American wetlands and has become a viable long-term solution to lead poisoning.
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03/07/2021 10:26PM |
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03/08/2021 08:21AM |
arnesr: "Durza: "
Got any links to these studies where the primary type of lead poisoning in waterfowl comes from bird shot? "
Just google "lead poisoning waterfowl" and you will get plenty of hits. They all deal with lead shot.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13280-019-01159-0
Pinetree, thanks for the Ducks Unlimited reference, again, lead shot is the source.
mschi772 posted a reference that "Studies in the northeast have found that lead tackle accounts for something like 40% of all adult loon mortality". He/she also posted a photo with a picture of lead shot. I'm assuming the lead tackle referenced also included lead shot.....primarily lead shot.
My point is, lead fishing tackle and lead hunting shot are two separate issues, but they are often lumped together to further an agenda. I have no doubt that some birds or other animals have been harmed by lead fishing tackle. Harm has been done no doubt, but on a very minor scale when you look at total species population levels. You have to strike a balance.
"
Yes, the picture I've used is of lead shot; I use it simply because it is a good way to convey what a tiny amount of lead can be fatal for a bird as large as an eagle. That picture is not related to the study I referenced. The study found that over 40% of adult loon mortality was due to lead FISHING TACKLE--primarily lead sinkers and jigs. 40% of a species' adult mortality is not a "very minor scale."
After Maine banned lead sinkers in 2002, that one change resulted in 10% less adult loon mortality from lead poisoning within the following 10 years. That is HUGE considering it was merely a lead sinker ban, and nothing was really stopping out-of-state anglers from bringing and using lead tackle either out of ignorance or apathy. If we universally stopped using lead tackle entirely, the effect would be amazing.
The only agenda I see here is the guy who is trying to downplay the effects of lead fishing tackle by saying that it is being conflated with ammunition.
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03/08/2021 02:31PM |
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03/08/2021 04:18PM |
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03/08/2021 11:54AM |
RatherbeDuffing: "God forbid we let the most minor of inconvenience hinder your hobby. You can't replace your jig heads in 3 years? Really? "
While I favor the bill, I don't see how this attitude will help to change minds.
For someone who has invested in bulk soft lead and runs several different molds, I don't think it's fair to downplay the impact this change will have. Casting a tungsten jig head or weight is a whole different ballgame. If a person is already used to saving money by making their own weights and jigs, this will be a more significant burden than it is for a guy like me buys a couple packs of jigs a year.
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03/08/2021 12:49PM |
Savage Voyageur: "I switched over my ice fishing jigs to Tungsten about 130 jig heads, and my fly fishing nymphs to Tungsten about 150 of them. I also switched my split shot to Tungsten. The only problem I will have is my bead chain keel weights. Nobody makes them in anything other than lead. My lead Walleye jig heads total about 300, but I will stop use them and switch these too. "
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03/08/2021 11:15AM |
arnesr: "yogi59weedr: "I don't really see how my 1/8 oz jig that I break off in 20 feet of water is going to harm anything."
It's not, you are exactly correct yogi59weedr. If I lose a jig while fishing one of three things has likely happened. 1. I snagged a log and I am unable to retrieve the jig resulting in the line breaking. 2. Similar to #1, my jig is wedged between two rocks at depth and after making every effort I am unable to retrieve it. 3. My jig is lost to a fish either due to line abrasion/pike or the fish is Moby Dick. #1 and #2 is going to result in the jig remaining in place for a very long time. #3 certainly is not going to wind up in a loon, but perhaps an eagle could ingest it, but it is far from certain to happen, in fact it is still very unlikely.
I have read several studies on this topic as I am an avid jig fisherman and make my own as well. In every study I have read, the researchers focus on banning lead in general, but if you dig down into the research it is primarily hunting lead shot that is the primary cause of lead poisoning in waterfowl, still today. This is after it has been banned from hunting use for many years. It just makes sense if you think about it. Duck/'Goose hunters hunt primarily over shallow water and each shell contains hundreds of tiny shot. These shallow water areas are the areas where waterfowl are likely to ingest small gravel to aid their digestion. The lead shot is still out there, even if it is not used today.
On the one hand I understand from a LNT perspective we don't want to be littering a toxic substance even if is unseen under water. The fact is though, that a lead jig will not dissolve and pollute the water to any real extent, it is only toxic if ingested. I think it is more important to balance our use of resources to promote them and encourage their use. Fishing, even with lead tackle, is much better use of the resource compared to other activities such as mining which would poison more than a handful of waterfowl. "
God forbid we let the most minor of inconvenience hinder your hobby. You can't replace your jig heads in 3 years? Really?
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03/08/2021 01:44PM |
one thing i'm not so sure of the loon studies is ,,,, i'v had loons very close to me as i've fished , one of my coolest experience was these two loons went back and fourth under our canoe 3 time and popped up 3' from the canoe and proceeded to move to the front of the canoe and escort us out this little bottleneck bay. but what i have noticed with loons very close their eye sight is extremely good and have never fallen for a lure, ever, not even a glance. this is in gin clear waters.
i think the lead comes from a different source ,,, but i still feel the lead should also not be part of the BW water as more and more lead head jigs get snag and become a permanent fixture in the BW , yes some may say so many parts per million PPM , but isnt less better ?
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03/08/2021 04:35PM |
shock: "i'm all for the change ,
one thing i'm not so sure of the loon studies is ,,,, i'v had loons very close to me as i've fished , one of my coolest experience was these two loons went back and fourth under our canoe 3 time and popped up 3' from the canoe and proceeded to move to the front of the canoe and escort us out this little bottleneck bay. but what i have noticed with loons very close their eye sight is extremely good and have never fallen for a lure, ever, not even a glance. this is in gin clear waters.
i think the lead comes from a different source ,,, but i still feel the lead should also not be part of the BW water as more and more lead head jigs get snag and become a permanent fixture in the BW , yes some may say so many parts per million PPM , but isnt less better ?"
Loons aren't taking lead tackle right off the lines. They're finding dislodged jigs and sinkers at the bottom and mistaking them for rocks, or they're ingesting lead bits when they eat fish that have ingested lead bits. Regardless of what you think loons do or do not do, the fact is: necropsies of loons find fatal lead poisoning and actual pieces of lead fishing tackle in the loons. No one is *guessing* about what kills these birds.
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03/08/2021 08:32PM |
It's an interesting study although it's based in Coeur d'Alene rivershed but it highlights waterfowl eating habits.
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03/08/2021 09:50PM |
Where I get concerned is moving next to a total ban on lead . . I think that would end target shooting and relegate small gauge shotguns to a permanent home in the gun cabinet. No one appears to be suggesting a total ban on lead, at least not on this site anyway. But I think it could be coming up soon given the current political climate.