Boundary Waters Quetico Forum :: Gear Forum :: Driving speed
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Nozzelnut |
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LilyPond |
There's no hysteria, only rational advice based on actual incidents. An improperly secured canoe is a lethal weapon. Why should others put themselves at risk for your convenience? The solution for you is so simple that I don't know why you would object to it. |
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old_salt |
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paddlingpika |
Not sure if it makes a difference, but I like to run the excess strap length past the cam buckle down around the bar and then tie it off. If still having problems at highway speeds, I'd try offsetting the bars (or getting longer bars if necessary), so that you could mount one bracket outside of the towers and adjust bracket spacing to have the canoe a bit further back on the car. |
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paddlingpika |
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Kendis |
My wife and I were driving to our "dry run" location this weekend to do a final test of our equipment. It was also an opportunity to test our system for transporting our canoe. Below are the various items involved in transport: -Canoe: Wenonah Champlain - kevlar UL (https://www.wenonah.com/Canoes.aspx?id=15) - Car: 2010 Honda Fit (https://www.autotrader.com/Honda/Fit/2010) - Roof rack: Yakima Core-Bar (https://www.rei.com/product/102597/yakima-50-corebars-pair) - Saddles and belly straps for boat for roof rack: Yakima Keelover (https://www.rei.com/product/849951/yakima-keelover-canoe-carrier) - Loops to go inside the car hood to use to tie down the bow of the canoe (https://www.rei.com/product/818227/seattle-sports-quick-loops-pair) We tie down the bow to the front of the car. We do not tie down the stern to the rear of the car because: (1) don't want to worry about somehow damaging the spine of the canoe and (2) there isn't a good way to do it in this car. Attached are two photos showing: (1) the roof rack system with canoe attached and (2) view from inside the car showing the bow tied to the front of the car. While we were driving yesterday some of the roads had speed limits of 65 mph. Previously the highest speed we had driven at with the canoe on the car was 55 mph. We noticed that this system is stable at 55 mph, but once you get up towards 60 mph and especially 65+ mph, the bow slowly begins to move back and forth. We pulled over and realized the front belly straps were slowly working themselves loose (the rear straps were still nice and tight). Any advice how how to prevent this problem from happening at 60+ mph? We have hundreds of miles to drive from the Chicago area up to BWCA and driving at 55 mph instead of 65+ mph will add at least an hour to our already long drive. |
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billconner |
I'd guess with Fit that roof bars are not as far apart as I am use too and that may contribute to wiggle. I think I'd try setting canoe as far back as possible. Attach a red warning flag. |
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old_salt |
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sns |
Under-Hood Strap attachment point |
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Kendis |
sns: "These straps, secured under the hood, do a nice job of providing solid front anchor points closer to the bow (& therefore allowing less strap stretch...) Thanks for the suggestion @sns. We are already using a similar product. |
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jhb8426 |
Gman42: "... Also, I'd recommend purchasing ratchet straps instead of using ropes and knots. Ratchet straps allow you to tighten down the load without worrying that the straps will come loose...." They also allow you to crack the hull. It's easy to over tighten them. I'd avoid them. It's easy to tighten a cam buckle strap tight enough to hold things down. |
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T |
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LilyPond |
Kendis: "7. Tie down the stern as well as the bow - we are not willing to consider this as we believe this will lead to damage of the canoe's spine." The solution you're unwilling to consider is the one that's the most important. WIDE CANOE + SMALL CAR + INADEQUATE LINES + HIGH SPEED = SETUP FOR DISASTER So far no one has thought to remind you of your first and foremost duty on the road: to not kill anybody. Bow and stern lines are absolutely essential for safety. You're incorrect about damaging the canoe, but that's not your first concern. Your first concern is the safety of your passengers and other cars on the road. What do you think happens when a 60lb projectile flies off your car at high speed? Would you want to be in the path of that projectile? Do you want to lose a passenger in your own car when the canoe destabilizes the car and you run off the road? While you're protecting the "spine" of your canoe, you're a hazard to everyone else on the road. There are many Youtube videos and newspaper reports of what happens to improperly secured canoes and kayaks. Google it. All this is because you want to save an hour? Try saving some lives first. I look forward to the day when laws in every state require 4 straps on all canoes and kayaks. The bow and stern straps don't need to be tight enough to deform the canoe. They need to be tight enough to prevent the canoe from becoming a lethal missile in case of a mishap. Please secure your canoe at 4 points. I also advise people not to travel as a passenger in a vehicle with an improperly secured canoe or kayak. I never drive behind such vehicles either. |
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LilyPond |
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Roadkill |
LilyPond: "Here's an informative thread with some intelligent posts : https://forums.paddling.com/discussion/1138182/bow-stern-tie-downs" I know of two instances where racing canoes left the rooftop on a highway. The boats quickly became roadkill, fortunately nobody was hurt as both times the boats were ran over by trucks. In both instances they didn't bother to use bow/stern lines. |
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andym |
The more I look at the pictures, the more I agree that your straps were getting too far apart on top of the canoe. Either they weren’t parallel to begin with or the buckle got loose. I’m guessing the former. For starters, you might just try another test with the straps done very carefully. But I would also get longer bars, put the canoe further back and off toward the passenger side. The driver will have better visibility, as someone else pointed out. |
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yellowcanoe |
We have transported our 18.5 foot Wenonah cross country four times. At speeds up to 75 mph. In the high winds of the Great Plains We found that by having less of the bow ahead of the front crossbar than stern in back of the aft crossbar leads to much better stability. And that means you must mark the stern with a red flag and tie to something in back. This line needs to go down from a back thwart straight down. not from the stem forward to a back end of car attachment. |
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Kendis |
LilyPond: "Kendis: "7. Tie down the stern as well as the bow - we are not willing to consider this as we believe this will lead to damage of the canoe's spine." Thank you for expressing your opinion. I read through the forum thread you linked to and I see that there are mixed opinions about what you stated in your first post. I started this thread asking for ideas on how to safely secure our canoe and I agree with your statements about the need for responsible driving. If you choose to post again in this thread, please do not use the hysterical tone of your first post. Kendis |
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PineKnot |
Capsize: "I am not familiar with the Yakima system, but the Thule system has canoe stops that go on the outside of the canoe and lock in place on the bars. These canoe stops keep the canoe from moving side to side at all. The straps simply lock the canoe down, and are not there to keep it from moving laterally. As mentioned earlier, see if your canoe stops can be put against the outside rail of the canoe to keep it from moving. They should be nice and snug. " I also have the Thule gunwale brackets and put them on the outside of the gunwales. I drive an Outback and the brackets barely fit when I haul my Bell Northwind tandem....I also use three tiedowns on the front of the vehicle--one on each side under the hood and one in the center hooked to the frame under front bumper. I can do up to 80 mph on interstate even with a moderate crosswind.... I would suggest you move your Yakima brackets to the outside of your gunwales if possible. If not, you'll need to ensure they're very tight to you crossbars. Also try three separate tiedowns up front and one in the back (just don't crank the rear tie down too tight)....best of luck and happy paddling.... |
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bcelect |
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Canoearoo |
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mastertangler |
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TwoByGreenCanoe |
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thebotanyguy |
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mschi772 |
Canoearoo: "The front tie down should not be just one rope. You need 2 individual ropes tied town to the front (we use canoe loops attached to the frame) " Or you can knot the single rope tightly on either side of the bow as the looping is indeed insufficient. That bow rope also looks like a type that has a fair amount of stretch, so I'd recommend a cord/rope with less stretch. |
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nctry |
Even tied down good I watch speed especially when bucking a wind. It can really stress a boat if your not careful. The padding also absorbs a lot of the bumps. I've had upwards of 27 boats on at a time. Never a front or rear strap, but I have distance between bars. I started putting on the second front strap on for insurance in the wind in case a strap might break. I've been in 60 MPH winds a few times. The not moving was a side benefit. |
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Bumstead |
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awbrown |
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nctry |
tumblehome: "You need to tie the back of the canoe to the back of the car. There is a way to do it, you just need to find out how. You will not damage the canoe. ALL canoes should be tied at the front and back. I tie mine as tight as I can get it front and back. After hauling hundreds of canoes, the only ones that were damaged were ones tied off front and back early in my hauling. You can damage boats by tightening the ends too much. Many boats are not made for this. Some have a hole somewhat reenforced like Northstar I believe. But I wouldn't put a lot of faith in the handle bar on the Wenonah. Usually replace the rivets with SS rivets but the aluminum loosens. When using the front tie downs it's best to use the fender straps you can buy or make. Just be careful... The Champlain is a big boat for a small car. |
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Zulu |
There is a good feature about how to tie down a canoe on Red Rock Wilderness Store site. Search for “How to”. When I bought my canoe there that’s how he tied it down and I went 70mph home with a crosswind. The front shifted an inch or so but nothing serious. |
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jhb8426 |
Capsize: "I am not familiar with the Yakima system, but the Thule system has canoe stops that go on the outside... " That's how I normally put mine on, except in the case of my Northwind I had to put them on the inside as there was no room on the rails to fit them on the outside. I could still get them tight to the sides of the gunwales so the hull didn't move. |
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tumblehome |
Tie the crap out of the canoe. It doesn't have to look sporty. Tie Tie Tie. More rope. More straps. I once got a speeding ticket with a canoe on my Prius. The trooper said I would get better milage if I wasn't driving so fast. 75 in a 55. Oops. |
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bfurlow |
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unshavenman |
I agree with Nctry, don't tension any kind of cord to the rear of the canoe; you could break the spine. |
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Zulu |
There is a good feature about how to tie down a canoe on Red Rock Wilderness Store site. Search for “How to”. When I bought my canoe there that’s how he tied it down and I went 70mph home with a crosswind. The front shifted an inch or so but nothing serious. |
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Capsize |
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andym |
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andym |
You can use the same straps on the trunk or tailgate of your car for a rear tie down. There should be something under the frame but I have used he straps for rental cars. |
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mjmkjun |
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Kendis |
1. Increase the distance between the two cross bars - this distance is set by Yakima for our specific car model and cannot be changed. 2. Construct a wood frame to supplement the cross bars - we will consider this as a last resort. My wife is very against this for the time being. 3. Change the orientation of the keelover saddles so that the saddles point inward towards the center of the car rather than outward - the width and shape of the canoe dictate the possibilities here. The "normal" configuration with the saddles pointing inward is not feasible for our car and canoe. There is not enough width in this configuration to accommodate the canoe. Moving the saddles outside of the mounting towers increases the width by too much, and the canoe cannot sit on the saddles. The only saddle configuration that works is to have the saddles point outward. This is a valid setup per the Yakima instructions. 4. Move the tie down loops farther forward along the hood so that they provide both lateral and longitudinal restraint - we will try this. 5. Use two separate ropes to tie down the bow to the front of the car - we will try this with a bowline attached to the tie down loops and a trucker's hitch for the canoe. 6. Use rope that does not stretch as much - we will try this. We observed that this rope does stretch under this loading. Do any of you have a recommendation for a rope material and/or diameter? 7. Tie down the stern as well as the bow - we are not willing to consider this as we believe this will lead to damage of the canoe's spine. 8. Replace the front cam strap, since the buckle should not be working itself loose - we will consider this if the other fixes fail to solve the problem. This buckle does not work itself loose at speeds at or below 55 mph, so we currently believe the buckle operates correctly so long as the canoe is restrained correctly with the bow tie down. 9. Add another strap to the front cross bar to further restrain the canoe - we will consider this if the other fixes fail to solve the problem, however I do not think this will be a viable fix since there does not appear to be a good place for this second strap to sit. 10. Add padding to further restrain the canoe - I do not understand what you are trying to describe. Do you have a photograph of this? 11. Move the canoe farther back so that it does not overhang the roof as much - we spent a lot of time trying to figure out the best place for the canoe to sit. Due to the saddle configuration mentioned in item #3 above, the canoe must sit this far forward so that both the front and rear saddles firmly support the gunwales. The apparent slant of the canoe in the photograph attached to the original post is due to the fact that the front cross bar sits slightly lower than the rear cross bar due to the slant in the car's roofline. This stumped us but we cannot find a solution that sets both cross bars at the same elevation since the cross bars are mounted per the Yakima recommendations. |
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Kendis |
bfurlow: "Off topic - Looks like you are close to Naperville? Looks like that exit on the highway pic, and you sure seem to be at blackwell forest preserve in the other pic. " We do live close to Naperville. We were driving eastbound along I-88 this past weekend in the highway photograph. The parking lot photograph is at Blackwell, taken during the first nice-ish ice-free weekend in March. |
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Gman42 |
Bumstead: "Maybe someone else can comment on this, but it appears you have the canoe shifted forward on the two bars which seems to pitch it forward. I always mount my canoes on center. Is it possible, being farther forward, that you're catching an updraft from the front of the vehicle that is causing more sway to the front of the canoe? Maybe give it a try with the 'Wenonah' in the center of your bars. I mount 2 canoes on my van and am very content driving 73 mph with a slight movement in the canoes. I do use a rear rope on the canoes too." I agree, the logo should be centered between the bars. Also, I'd recommend purchasing ratchet straps instead of using ropes and knots. Ratchet straps allow you to tighten down the load without worrying that the straps will come loose. You can get a set at any big box hardware store; don't buy them from an outdoor store as they're more expensive and they don't have a good selection. |
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Jackfish |
Link to Add a link to this message tutorial |
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bcelect |
After a 10 mile drive at highway speeds, the straps should always be checked and tightened. |
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Guest today |
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anthonyp007 |
Bumstead: "Maybe someone else can comment on this, but it appears you have the canoe shifted forward on the two bars which seems to pitch it forward. I always mount my canoes on center. Is it possible, being farther forward, that you're catching an updraft from the front of the vehicle that is causing more sway to the front of the canoe? Maybe give it a try with the 'Wenonah' in the center of your bars. I mount 2 canoes on my van and am very content driving 73 mph with a slight movement in the canoes. I do use a rear rope on the canoes too." +1...it looks like the Wenonah logo should be perfectly centered between your bars, but’s it’s more forward in the pics. I’d start there, then I’d also put stern lines on it. |
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andym |
If the canoe needs to be too far forward then maybe the rack setup just isn’t right for your car and this canoe. Maybe longer bars would give you more flexibility about placement although they would overhang the sides. Or, consider the Spring Creek suction cup racks. They may get you a bigger spread distance at the cost of running straps through your car. And they may let you have gunwale stops further apart so that you can put the canoe down further back. Finally, and here I go with 2x4s again, consider the Spring Creek suction cup rack kit. With this kit you add 2x4s as the crossbars. That could let you rig the front rack up higher (use 2x4 spacers under the front rack) and get the canoe more out of your view. |
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TwoByGreenCanoe |
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bfurlow |
Kendis: "bfurlow: "Off topic - Looks like you are close to Naperville? Looks like that exit on the highway pic, and you sure seem to be at blackwell forest preserve in the other pic. " Cool! Nice to have another local Illinois paddler on the board! |
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mjmkjun |
Guest today: "The two straps going across the top of your canoe are way too far apart. They should be almost touching each other. The wind will slowly blow the straps closer together and this will loosen your straps as you drive. " True that. |