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Diego	08/06/2019 03:42PM   Follow up question... When installing the crossbars, should they be as wide apart as possible? I'm bringing up a 18.5 ft Souris River, so it's a big one.
nctry	08/06/2019 04:14PM   Diego: "Follow up question... When installing the crossbars, should they be as wide apart as possible? I'm bringing up a 18.5 ft Souris River, so it's a big one. " As I was typing as you sent this... haha, yes very important. You can’t get them too far apart on your setup I don’t think. That is why a good front and back setup is good in this situation. Just remember, be careful about cranking too much. Using ratchet straps for instance can put a lot of stress on your canoe. But unless you have a newer Lincoln canoe, most are strong enough to tighten properly. I found too putting on a second front belly strap if you had to not tighten real tight and you had some shifting back and forth. Also look up those fender straps you can bolt in under your hood. To me that was the best money I spent for tieing down the front of the canoe(s).
RunningFox	08/08/2019 08:30PM   Congrats Diego. Appears you’re good to go in high style. I like your set-up . . . and If it were mine, I would fasten a wooden strip (2x5/8) on the outer edge of the Thule cross members thereby connecting the front cross member to the back cross member. I would do this on both sides of the car. With the canoe on my shoulders facing the side of the car, I could place the bow on the wooden strip and stern on the ground. Then I could slip out from under, walk back & lift the stern, slide the canoe forward, and rotate/pry it into place. I could do this all by my big self, which is 99% of the time (0kay! 99.99%!!) How one can solo car-top a canoe with your set-up is beyond me. If I were concerned about aesthetics (What me worry?) I would remove the side rails when not in use. Anyway, hope you enjoy your set-up and best wishes.
Banksiana	08/08/2019 09:25PM   heavylunch: "billconner: "Other than a personal sense of aesthetics is there really reason to have the canoe centered? " Yes, you want the widest part of canoe to be between the front and rear straps. That usually means centered. If you don't, the canoe wont stay put as well, sliding forward or backwards more easily under stress. Like headwind or braking hard." The concern was over centering side to side (between passenger side and driver side) not front to back.
old_salt	08/07/2019 07:04AM   billconner: "Other than a personal sense of aesthetics is there really reason to have the canoe centered? " Aerodynamics.
eagle98mn	08/08/2019 04:53PM   In case anyone thinks bow/stern straps aren't really that big of a deal, I couldn't endorse using bow/stern straps more after learning the hard way a few years ago... The short of the story is I had a Yakima rack system with Q towers that I had used on my Malibu to transport two Kayaks for years with no problems. I never used bow/stern straps and never thought much about it after driving all over without them. I switched cars to a Cruze, and on my first drive with the kayaks on top, the entire system lifted off my car and flipped upside down onto the highway behind me. It was one of the scariest moments of driving I've ever experienced and I am still thankful that the vehicles behind me were a long way back. If they had been closer, someone could have easily died or been seriously hurt. The whole system stayed together rather than breaking apart and scattering across the road. My kayaks got some new scars but are still perfectly seaworthy (yeah for polyethylene!). I discovered that my Q towers didn't have the right clamps for the Cruze. Most importantly, I discovered why we tie down to the car in addition to the rack itself. It's pretty embarrassing to share the story since it is so obviously preventable and foolish in hindsight, but the story doesn't do any good unless I share it when the occasion rises.
heavylunch	08/08/2019 06:29PM   billconner: "Other than a personal sense of aesthetics is there really reason to have the canoe centered? " Yes, you want the widest part of canoe to be between the front and rear straps. That usually means centered. If you don't, the canoe wont stay put as well, sliding forward or backwards more easily under stress. Like headwind or braking hard.
Diego	08/08/2019 06:42PM   eagle98mn: "In case anyone thinks bow/stern straps aren't really that big of a deal, I couldn't endorse using bow/stern straps more after learning the hard way a few years ago... The short of the story is I had a Yakima rack system with Q towers that I had used on my Malibu to transport two Kayaks for years with no problems. I never used bow/stern straps and never thought much about it after driving all over without them. I switched cars to a Cruze, and on my first drive with the kayaks on top, the entire system lifted off my car and flipped upside down onto the highway behind me. It was one of the scariest moments of driving I've ever experienced and I am still thankful that the vehicles behind me were a long way back. If they had been closer, someone could have easily died or been seriously hurt. The whole system stayed together rather than breaking apart and scattering across the road. My kayaks got some new scars but are still perfectly seaworthy (yeah for polyethylene!). I discovered that my Q towers didn't have the right clamps for the Cruze. Most importantly, I discovered why we tie down to the car in addition to the rack itself. It's pretty embarrassing to share the story since it is so obviously preventable and foolish in hindsight, but the story doesn't do any good unless I share it when the occasion rises." Point taken.... My question is this...if you have a catastrophic failure of the rack, and the whole thing lifts off, will the typical bow and stern lines actually keep the canoe secured until stopping? The airflow catching the underside of the canoe has got to be huge, and I know just from walking around with a broadsided canoe the force of wind. Just what sized rope are we talking about for it to actually not break?
Diego	08/06/2019 05:05PM   Ok...thanks for all the good feedback. I'll try and get everything put together tonight or tomorrow and take some pics. This will be my first trip without a trailer. Kind of excited for the maneuverability this will give me, getting into parking spots, ect., but it was just so easy to just throw everything in the trailer and go too...
Banksiana	08/07/2019 10:29AM   billconner: "Other than a personal sense of aesthetics is there really reason to have the canoe centered? " Aerodynamics don't really change by not having the canoe centered. If you are using bow or stern ties to keep the boat from shifting they become less effective when the angle of a tie approaches vertical.
Diego	08/08/2019 05:26AM   I don't think I need them either, but I hate putting all my faith in those straps. If one did decide to break loose would just a stern tie down at least keep the canoe from becoming a flying projectile and hopefully just let me drag it until stopped?
billconner	08/08/2019 06:53AM   If do now lines so wind doesn't flex canoe but if worried by straps, use 2 each bar. Was the 60" bar a different profile that it didn't fit towers?
jhb8426	08/07/2019 12:37AM   I've always hauled my boats on a roof rack with cross bars. Currently have a volvo wagon with thule cross bars and canoe blocks. The cross bars are about 4 ft apart and the belly straps tie directly to them. Use a bow tie down to the frame (hood straps). No stern tie. My reasoning on this is that if I have a situation that causes the boat to come off to the front, I've got a bigger problem than a loose canoe to deal with. On the canoe blocks, I use an extra 1/4 in. rubber pad.
Running Fox	08/07/2019 12:06AM   I make my own car top carrier out of wood. I start by buying oak wood strips from Fleet Farm appox. Two inches wide by about a half-inch thick. I cut a reasonable length and then bolt it to the front cross member of the factory installed roof rack. This involves drilling holes in the factory cross-member. I then repeat the same steps on the rear cross-member. With wood mounted on the cross-members, I next connect the front cross-member to the rear member using the same wood described previously: I simply lay the wood atop and use screws to secure it. From above you would see a wooden rectangle that would be a bit wider that the factory roof rack. Next I put the canoe on: I portage it up perpendicular to the car and put the bow on the board running parallel to car’s centerline & set the stern on the ground. Then I walk out from under, go back and lift the stern, and slide the canoe on, while rotating it to center the canoe down the center-line of the car. I further nudge it and examine from all angles until it appears ready to ride. Then I mark where the outer gunnel edge rests (4 marks in total). Now I remove the canoe. Using same lumber, I cut and lay (screw) wood atop each cross members up to each markings, but not under where canoe will rest. (All screws are counter sunk.) At this point i’m able to easily car top my canoe by myself and it will literally fall into place, i.e. be running down the centerline of my car each and every time. Finally, I remove the wood rack and spar varnish it to prolong its life. I install my rack in spring an remove in fall. i’ve transported canoes this way for decades. I secure the canoe to the factory side rails with two ropes using a trucker’s hitch. I live seven hours south of Ely an visit at least annually. Never lost a canoe yet and no damage to car except for holes drilled in cross members. I hate wood working and have little skill at it. Believe most readers could do this.
billconner	08/07/2019 04:04AM   Other than a personal sense of aesthetics is there really reason to have the canoe centered?
billconner	08/09/2019 06:37AM   Banksiana: "heavylunch: "billconner: "Other than a personal sense of aesthetics is there really reason to have the canoe centered? " Yes, you want the widest part of canoe to be between the front and rear straps. That usually means centered. If you don't, the canoe wont stay put as well, sliding forward or backwards more easily under stress. Like headwind or braking hard." The concern was over centering side to side (between passenger side and driver side) not front to back. " I understood. Does it really matter for function if it's to one side? As I noted, solo and tandem or canoe and box.
Diego	08/06/2019 05:28AM   I've always used a canoe trailer to haul my canoes, and they set directly on the crossbars secured by straps with no issue. This year I've got a new Subaru Ascent and am just taking one canoe on our trip so I would like to car top it. I've ordered a Thule Aero wing cross bar set for the new vehicle. My question is can the canoe be secured directly on the crossbars, or should something like the Thule Portage pads or those high density foam blocks be used between the canoe and the crossbars?
billconner	08/06/2019 05:41AM   I have an Outback with same bars and have been cartopping weekends to nearby launches, and having same thought. I use pads from REI but wonder if the rubber top to the bars is enough. On the other hand, I like the way the pads act as springs with the tie downs. I think you'd be fine without pads, I just haven't tried yet.
boonie	08/06/2019 05:45AM   The outfitter always puts it on my Subaru Outback with foam blocks that fit over the crossbars. If I were doing it without the foam blocks I'd at least put some foam pipe wrap on the gunwales.
AmarilloJim	08/06/2019 09:11AM   Diego: "old_salt: "The canoe needs to be secured to the vehicle. The racks are an intermediary part of the system." Secured to vehicle how? Around the canoe, through the windows? I do plan on using bow and stern tie downs, more of a last line of defense kind of thing though." You got it. Tied down around the canoe at each rack and 2 tie downs at the bow and 1or 2 tie downs from the stern.
Diego	08/06/2019 09:33AM   DuluthPak: "I use the foam blocks like these on my roof rack. Foam Blocks I agree with others that the foam blocks add a bit of a cushion and shock absorption. But in my case, the foam blocks also add a couple extra inches of gap between the roof of the vehicle and the canoe to allow space for the yoke pads. Otherwise the yoke pads would dig into the roof of the vehicle. So the foam blocks allow me to leave the yoke pads attached to the canoe. " Good point about the added height needed for yoke pads. I did not account for that.
justpaddlin	08/06/2019 09:49AM   You don't NEED any additional padding if the rest of your system is secure. I like to use short pieces of clear one inch diameter acrylic tubing slit up one side to attach to the canoe and provide some extra friction without adding much bulk. They also keep wood gunnels from getting scuffed up by the rack crossbars. Any decent hardware store sells the stuff by the foot.
butthead	08/06/2019 11:07AM   I do not use a Thule system but do think gunwale mount work very well both at supporting the canoe gunwale and securely locating it on the cross bars. If the "Portage" pads seem too expensive how about Universal brackets at half the cost? butthead
thegildedgopher	08/06/2019 09:24AM   Diego: "old_salt: "The canoe needs to be secured to the vehicle. The racks are an intermediary part of the system." Secured to vehicle how? Around the canoe, through the windows? I do plan on using bow and stern tie downs, more of a last line of defense kind of thing though." This tutorial from Souris River is pretty solid IMO. I don't see the need for foam blocks unless you have no roof rack and are installing directly to the top of your car. If you're worried about gunwale rub, you could take a small section of pool noodle, slice it open and wrap it around the gunwale where it makes contact with the roof rack bars. To answer your question about securing to vehicle -- The "belly straps" in the middle of the canoe can be secured directly to the rack as in the Souris River how-to. But the bow and stern lines should attach to the vehicle. The "gunwale stops" are worth the price as well!
OCDave	08/06/2019 11:18AM   thegildedgopher:... This tutorial from Souris River is pretty solid IMO. ... ... " This is the way they taught me when I drove away with my first canoe. After hundreds of trips, it has yet to fail me. The foam blocks not only protect the gunwales, it also allows a bit of give to allow tightening the straps just beyond what is necessary with little risk of damaging canoe.
nctry	08/06/2019 03:42PM   I don’t know your cars rack system. They used to be more for looks... but I’ve seen some pretty solid racks on newer cars. If the Thule rack mounts solid to your cars system, that would be great. Most small cars and short box trucks have people tieing the belly straps almost too close together. I’d try to spread them as much as you can. I doubt you’d need foam blocks with the Thule rack. It should in itself raise it enough. Some foam like pipe insulation works good. I’d buy the better stuff and duct tape it on good. When you tie it down in that it sorta creates it’s own “stops”. Without foam those adjustable stops can be worth there weight in a lot of things. Good straps and rope is the way to go. Also knowledge of good knots is a good thing. I met a lot of people along highways and such to deliver canoes and kayaks. It was fun to see the different setups out there people used. I’d help a few when I saw a problem, but most people had their system and it seemed to always work out good. There were times I shook my head and did my best to accommodate. A guy came over the Canadian border to pick up a MN lV. He had a truck and was pulling a regular snowmobile trailer. No rack on truck... I happened to have a suction cup rack and a clamp on truck rack and got him set up pretty good. He bought my old rack and I got a new rack out of the deal. It’s good to get ideas from everyone except Old Salt... I’m kidding... actually if someone is so old they even have that part of their name you should listen to them... sometimes. Haha. Post some pictures when that rack comes and you have it attached!
Banksiana	08/06/2019 04:20PM   Cross bars and straps as far apart as possible. I haven't used the rack on the Ascent (or as I call it the Outbloat)- but the rack on the Outback can be spaced far enough apart that I carry my MNII (18.5') without using bow or stern ropes (caveat: the farthest I'm traveling is from eight miles up the Echo Trail to Moose Lake on the Fernberg). Important note: for bow or stern ropes to be effective in preventing sideways motion of the canoe you must use two separate ropes on the bow (or stern). If you use one rope looped through the thwart and tied on each end, the canoe is still free to move back in forth- the thwart functioning as a pulley- two ropes pulling against each other is what you want. Buy some hood or bumper straps to attach to as there's really nothing on the vehicle to tie the stabilizing bow and stern straps to. Subaru roof rack has some excellent steel anchor points for the belly straps.
Diego	08/08/2019 07:51AM   billconner: "If do now lines so wind doesn't flex canoe but if worried by straps, use 2 each bar. Was the 60" bar a different profile that it didn't fit towers? " Same profile, but the cross bar bottom channels that the feet slide into are not cut long enough for the width of my rails. They need to be cut out about an inch longer on each side. Disappointed in that because the 60 inch bars would make loading unloading much easier.
Diego	08/07/2019 10:00PM   Got the Thule crossbars and Thule Portage pads put on the vehicle today. Those are the 53 inch bars. I tried the 60 inch bars but they wouldn't fit the rails. The Thule Portage pads are not a great fit to the crossbars, which I thought was kind of odd. But they do seem to be very solid and I'm getting no lateral play, even with no bow lines attached. I will hopefully get that figured out tomorrow. I have just over a 5 ft spread on the bars which I think helps a lot.
awbrown	08/07/2019 10:40AM   I use a Yakima system and attach mine just like Souris River does. I use two tie down ropes in the front, but nothing in the back. My vehicle is a Ford Escape and much of the frame work under the hood is plastic. I did find that the frame work around the hood hinges is steel so I mounted two webbing straps near the hinges, to tie my front ropes to.
RunningFox	08/07/2019 05:03PM   Picture of my homemade roof rack as described in earlier thread.
GraniteCliffs	08/07/2019 07:36PM   For a single canoe I use my factory roof rack. For two canoes I have two very old two by fours that are wide enough to hold the two canoes. I simply lash them to the roof racks. Borrowed the wood from a friend 13 years ago or so. He never wanted them back. They work great, no cost solution.
Banksiana	08/08/2019 12:35AM   Looks very good Diego. With that much spread between crossbars I don't think you need bow or stern lines providing you use good straps.
arm2008	08/08/2019 11:38AM   Banksiana: "Looks very good Diego. With that much spread between crossbars I don't think you need bow or stern lines providing you use good straps." Maybe it's just the residual trauma from watching a brand new, never paddled, carbon fiber kevlar black gold layup tandem canoe fly off the truck going 70 mph on the QEW when a component on the rack broke... if I'm going over 30 mph, my canoe has a bow tie down on it.
billconner	08/08/2019 12:11PM   Diego: "billconner: "If do now lines so wind doesn't flex canoe but if worried by straps, use 2 each bar. Was the 60" bar a different profile that it didn't fit towers? " Same profile, but the cross bar bottom channels that the feet slide into are not cut long enough for the width of my rails. They need to be cut out about an inch longer on each side. Disappointed in that because the 60 inch bars would make loading unloading much easier. " I'm out of town but can't wait to look at mine. Thule rep at Canoecopia said it would work fine
Diego	08/08/2019 10:45PM   RunningFox: "Congrats Diego. Appears you’re good to go in high style. I like your set-up . . . and If it were mine, I would fasten a wooden strip (2x5/8) on the outer edge of the Thule cross members thereby connecting the front cross member to the back cross member. I would do this on both sides of the car. With the canoe on my shoulders facing the side of the car, I could place the bow on the wooden strip and stern on the ground. Then I could slip out from under, walk back & lift the stern, slide the canoe forward, and rotate/pry it into place. I could do this all by my big self, which is 99% of the time (0kay! 99.99%!!) How one can solo car-top a canoe with your set-up is beyond me. If I were concerned about aesthetics (What me worry?) I would remove the side rails when not in use. Anyway, hope you enjoy your set-up and best wishes. " I use a folding step stool set up next to the car and am able to get it up and off without too much trouble, haven't made contact with any car paint yet. I'm 6'3 so that helps a bit too.
Diego	08/08/2019 10:50PM   billconner: "Diego: "billconner: "If do now lines so wind doesn't flex canoe but if worried by straps, use 2 each bar. Was the 60" bar a different profile that it didn't fit towers? " Same profile, but the cross bar bottom channels that the feet slide into are not cut long enough for the width of my rails. They need to be cut out about an inch longer on each side. Disappointed in that because the 60 inch bars would make loading unloading much easier. " I'm out of town but can't wait to look at mine. Thule rep at Canoecopia said it would work fine " Maybe the outback is different width? I'd assume the ascent would be wider though, so I wouldn't think the 60s would fit your outback. Maybe with a different foot rail it would work. Let me know what you find out.
eagle98mn	08/09/2019 09:45AM   Diego: "My question is this...if you have a catastrophic failure of the rack, and the whole thing lifts off, will the typical bow and stern lines actually keep the canoe secured until stopping? " That's a good question, and way above my 12th-grade physics from many years ago!
butthead	08/09/2019 10:52AM   Centered or to one side (passenger or driver), makes little felt difference. You may feel some in windy conditions though as the side with the canoe above will catch more wind than on the lee side. Would be nice on one side for reach and access to straps, but I'm too anal about balance! butthead
old_salt	08/06/2019 06:11AM   The canoe needs to be secured to the vehicle. The racks are an intermediary part of the system.
HangLoose	08/06/2019 08:45AM   I use the foam blocks like these on my roof rack. Foam Blocks I agree with others that the foam blocks add a bit of a cushion and shock absorption. But in my case, the foam blocks also add a couple extra inches of gap between the roof of the vehicle and the canoe to allow space for the yoke pads. Otherwise the yoke pads would dig into the roof of the vehicle. So the foam blocks allow me to leave the yoke pads attached to the canoe.
Diego	08/06/2019 08:35AM   old_salt: "The canoe needs to be secured to the vehicle. The racks are an intermediary part of the system." Secured to vehicle how? Around the canoe, through the windows? I do plan on using bow and stern tie downs, more of a last line of defense kind of thing though.
andym	08/07/2019 07:27PM   In terms of centering, remember that lots of people carry two canoes and that means both of them are off center. Still works. Like the homemade wood rack. I'm tempted to do something like that for two canoes.
billconner	08/07/2019 09:09PM   Banksiana: "billconner: "Other than a personal sense of aesthetics is there really reason to have the canoe centered? " Aerodynamics don't really change by not having the canoe centered. If you are using bow or stern ties to keep the boat from shifting they become less effective when the angle of a tie approaches vertical." That's what I think. I think about roof top box + canoe. I got a couple of the long Thule bars to go on suby - 78" iirc. Or solo and tandem.
mirth	08/06/2019 12:05PM   justpaddlin: "You don't NEED any additional padding if the rest of your system is secure. I like to use short pieces of clear one inch diameter acrylic tubing slit up one side to attach to the canoe and provide some extra friction without adding much bulk. They also keep wood gunnels from getting scuffed up by the rack crossbars. Any decent hardware store sells the stuff by the foot. " ZOMG, I think this may be the solution to the rash my gunwales keep acquiring whenever I put my canoes on the Boy Scout troop's trailer! When I'm cartopping on the Prius I use foam blocks as I don't have a rack. The wife's Sienna has a rack, and for a single canoe I'll use blocks as it does a good job of helping to lock the canoe into place. If I'm carrying 2 boats using the 2x2 pine boards I U-bolt on to the factory rack, I usually go bare. Wood on wood doesn't usually mar the gunwales that I've experienced.