Boundary Waters Quetico Forum :: Gear Forum :: Is Light weight worth the money?
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Blatz |
cyclones30: "If you're already in the 40s that's most Kevlar tandems. So you're looking for carbon? If you can, why not? 10 is a big number "I don't think there's a 30 lbs tandem unless you get a Savage River Pro Boat racing canoe |
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sns |
singlebladecanoe: "I'm very familure with Ultralight backpacking as I do that as well with my base pack weight less than 10 pounds (not including food and water)." Ah - perfect. This tells me all I need to know - buy the light canoe! Sidebar - I think it would be fun & informative to have a sub-forum on ways to shave weight for those who find that important. There's a lot of UL crossover with tripping but there are plenty of areas, starting with the canoe, that don't translate... For backpacking my baseweight is close to 12 pounds (down to ~20 degrees), but my baseweight for tripping is about 48 pounds. That's with the solo canoe & all gear (but minus food & water, as you point out). |
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Blatz |
EddyTurn: "Shaving 10lbs off a 60lbs boat could be done by using better design/materials. The same for a 40lbs canoe probably means that you are replacing it with a more fragile boat. It's a serious trade of, even in a lake country."I have to disagree. A canoe going from a 40 lbs to 30 lbs (probably a solo) means going from a Fiberglass layup to a Kevlar or Carbon lay up. It's a lighter fabric but not more fragile. |
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sns |
If you want to get a peek into the rabbit-hole of gear weight, visit the ultralight backpacking sub on reddit. Counting grams! For me, I will spend the money on lighter gear to lengthen the time before I have to spend the money on new knees. |
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MidwestFirecraft |
Like Gear Guy said, " If you like money, a 41lb canoe is by all rights still "ultralight" if you don't compare it to a 30 lb canoe." |
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jillpine |
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MossBack |
My first solo was a Mad River Independence at 43 lbs. I treated myself to a 60th birthday present by buying a Northstar Magic at 32 lbs and was never happier. MB |
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RickyBHangin |
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billconner |
ockycamper: "singlebladecanoe: "Toying with the idea of upgrading my current canoe from 42 pounds to something in the high 20's low 30's. Is shaving 12 pounds in canoe weight worth spending the money to upgrade for? I've already cut all my other gear weight. When is shaving weight no longer beneficial?" I've dropped nearly 40 pounds this year and my 44 pound canoe doesn't feel any lighter. :) |
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butthead |
butthead |
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kona |
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Jackfish |
HappyHuskies: "I've never finished a portage and said, "Gee, I wish my boat/gear weighed more". What Huskies said... spot on. |
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muddyfeet |
MossBack: "Burt Rutan, speaking of lightweight aircraft component design, said if you throw it into the air, and it comes back down, it's too heavy. There is surely a comparison here. I love this. |
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straighthairedcurly |
This summer we took our older Mad River which weighs around 57-60 lbs. and a Souris River that weighed significantly less. I had plenty of opportunity to carry both of these canoes during our bushwhack through the PMA. I really didn't have any issue carrying either. But the days of carrying my 80 lb. Old Town Tripper on anything longer than 60 rods are gone. I decided to save a lot of money by purchasing a used 48 lb. solo canoe. I can lift and carry it without issue so for now it meets my needs. I will spend the big bucks when I physically need a lighter boat. |
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sns |
nooneuno: "You also have to bear in mind advertised weights are not the same as actual weights" This is a good point! I think the really light boats are likely to be pretty true to spec; I had a Northwind solo in StarLight (Kevlar) that was one pound under spec. My Magic and Trillium are also both StarLight (Kevlar) within half a pound of spec. But I have an older Wenonah royalex solo that's +9 pounds over spec - like 35% over! |
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timatkn |
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OCDave |
singlebladecanoe: "Toying with the idea of upgrading my current canoe from 42 pounds to something in the high 20's low 30's. Is shaving 12 pounds in canoe weight worth spending the money to upgrade for? I've already cut all my other gear weight. When is shaving weight no longer beneficial?" As you get older and hopefully wiser, lighter is always better. When you do eventually spring for the lighter canoe, you'll wonder why you didn't do it sooner. You'l wonder; were there trips you didn't take because your canoe was too heavy? Did you cut a few 7 day trips short because the heavy canoe tired you out after 5 days? Are there lakes you did not visit because the extra weight discouraged you from the long, steep portage to that secluded spot? Today your heavier canoe might not be limiting you but eventually it will. Replace it before it becomes a limiter on your adventures. |
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GearGuy |
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Tomcat |
A1t2o: " +1 |
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sns |
singlebladecanoe: "But a lighter canoe would allow for it." One more thing - if you spend the money on a new (or better yet new-ish but used) Kevlar or Carbon canoe, they will hold their value very well. Spend 2000 on one with a couple years use, use it for a few years, sell it for 1800 if you've taken care of it. Or sell it sooner if you decide a different hull would better suit your needs... |
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singlebladecanoe |
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jillpine |
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singlebladecanoe |
OCDave: "singlebladecanoe: "Toying with the idea of upgrading my current canoe from 42 pounds to something in the high 20's low 30's. Is shaving 12 pounds in canoe weight worth spending the money to upgrade for? I've already cut all my other gear weight. When is shaving weight no longer beneficial?" That is one of the reason's I am looking at going lighter on the canoe. Its a full 2 day drive to get to the boundary waters for me. But we have several mountain lakes in our area, but they are any-where's from a 1/2 mile to 2 mile hike in to get to them. I have never fished them because of this exact thing, I don't want to try and get my heavier canoe or barge of sit on top kayak in to these places. But a lighter canoe would allow for it. |
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jillpine |
I regard $2500 to allow access to remote paddling to be a bargain of the century. If I drink my own coffee and make my own food, that saves about $10/day. Figure $50/week x 52 weeks and you can call Ted Bell and buy a beautiful craft. |
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sns |
nash52: "My Savage River / Marc Ornstein June Bug solo canoe weighs 10.5 lbs. A little under $4k with a custom layup. Yes, it's worth every penny. " Wow, that is cool. What aspects are customized (how'd you get the weight so low - that is 4lbs below spec for that canoe's lightest layup)? |
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nash52 |
The layup listed on my invoice is "Light TeXtreme / Light Kevlar / Light Kevlar." I opted for a fixed seat to save weight. No yoke is needed for portages; I just carry it over a shoulder. |
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ZaraSp00k |
even 20 years ago :) as for cost, 1000 divide by 20 is just 50 bucks a year so a youngster will pay about 25 a year for it, while an old codger will pay 100 and be *@ glad to then when you factor in that both situations you still have a boat after all those years, it's even less |
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cowdoc |
At the right price, shaving weight is always worth it. |
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timatkn |
singlebladecanoe: "kona: "For a ~14'+ boat, the difference between even 38lbs and 30lbs is dramatic, especially when swinging up to carry, and when negotiating wind. If you could get into the sub 30lb range, that would be something. Be sure to let us know what you end up with." Nice! |
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singlebladecanoe |
kona: "For a ~14'+ boat, the difference between even 38lbs and 30lbs is dramatic, especially when swinging up to carry, and when negotiating wind. If you could get into the sub 30lb range, that would be something. Be sure to let us know what you end up with." Picking up a new 2020 Wenonah Advantage in carbon layup on Friday. Listed at 31 pounds at 16'6". |
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HappyHuskies |
If it fits your budget and is durable enough for your use, I'd say yes, it's worth it. |
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lindylair |
Not to disparage anyone who wants to lighten their load or change their trip in any way they see fit but i guess i don't see the ultra ultra light weight thing as making a lot of sense. I am 66 years old and out of shape and can still fling a 42 lb canoe on my shoulders without much difficulty. Back in the day we travelled in 68-75 lb canoes and didn't have any problems. Heck i might even be able to portage one of those guys these days, not eager to try it. If the spend makes sense to you then go for it. When i am up there I am not in a hurry. If I have to see the same portage trail twice, oh well I am okay with that. Compared to the first years of my BWCA trips in the 70s everything I have is more lightweight including tents, sleeping bags, knives, flashlights, stoves, fuel, pads, clothing, footwear and even food. I manage just fine with a 40 plus pound pack on my back, maybe even twice on a portage. At the end of the day the soreness and fatigue I feel sitting around the campfire is part of the experience. By the next morning I am good to go again. I get ultralight for backpacking, you are carrying your load all day long. Seems overrated on the typical canoe trip. Whatever works for you is right. Just saying that saving a few pounds at a cost of many hundreds of dollars for something you will be carrying for 20% of your trip isn't on my radar. |
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Blatz |
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A1t2o |
If you are looking at single portaging and this will make or break your ability to single portage, then I might consider it worth while. But if you are only doing this because it is "ultralight" then it starts to seem more like a status symbol and paying for convenience that you don't need. My criteria for situations like this is if it enables you to do anything you couldn't do before. |
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WIMike |
boonie: It's also easier to pick up and put down, which is beneficial at awkward landings. " I'm not as experienced as most of the others here but what boonie said is a big issue for me. Getting the canoe up on my shoulders and back down are my critical points, especially when solo. That is when I'm most susceptible to injury. I currently use an OT Penobscot 16 that weighs about 8 lbs more than spec empty and I can manage just fine but it's getting tougher. If I tripped more frequently I would definitely get something lighter but I plan to rent when I can't manage the Penobscot any longer. I rented a Prism for a trip where my Penobscot was used by my son and DIL and I can tell you that if you buy you won't regret a lighter canoe. Good luck! |
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nooneuno |
My Penobscot 17 in royalex listed at 64 lbs. scales at 74 My Alumacraft quetico listed at 64 scales 64 2018 Wenonah Spirit 2 ultralight with white gel coat lists at 45 scales at 54 |
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nash52 |
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WHendrix |
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nctry |
I got my dream canoe too late. My smart alick remark would be oh boy I could tie 12 more pounds in it then. |
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deerfoot |
straighthairedcurly: "Personally I only think it is worth it if you have a physical reason to decrease the weight that much or you are trying to be able to single portage and that canoe will make the difference. I would agree with this statement completely. It seems many people are interested in the latest, lightest gear available and the typical BW trip is something like 3-4 days. |
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HappyHuskies |
If I was only going to paddle a boat 3-4 days a year I would look hard at renting instead. Yes, I no you won't get the lightest boat this way, but you can get reasonably light kevlar boats and won't have the cash outlay, need to store and license. Just a suggestion if the described scenario fits. Not sure if this describes the OP or not. The OP may take longer trips in the BW and/or paddle frequently in other places. I have two Magics, a Pro and a Black Gold. Both are nice boats, but the Black Gold gets used infrequently because the 26 pound Pro is noticeably nicer to portage. I also live close to the BW and am able to paddle several times a month from spring to fall. I've owned this boat since 2002 and think it's been well worth what it cost. Whether it would have been worth it to someone else I can't say. That's a decision everyone has to make for themselves. |
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HappyHuskies |
singlebladecanoe: "kona: "For a ~14'+ boat, the difference between even 38lbs and 30lbs is dramatic, especially when swinging up to carry, and when negotiating wind. If you could get into the sub 30lb range, that would be something. Be sure to let us know what you end up with." Congratulations! That's a very nice boat ... fast, durable, and light. Don't see how you could go wrong. |
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mags459 |
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nash52 |
mags459: "[T]he other thing to keep in mind is performance on the water. . . . if it does not track straight (shorter boat), or handle waves well the energy you saved carrying it is paid for 10 fold on the water. I would say performance first and weight second. . . . " Yes, the boat must work for it's intended use. I canoe on small lakes in the summer, and the total weight of me and my gear is about 165 pounds. So my 12.5 foot canoe works great, because portages are so easy, and I'm not paddling great distances. But I would still want the lightest practical layup for any canoe. The Savage River Blackwater is a solo 17 foot canoe that would be a great choice for a longer boat. |
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Blatz |
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sns |
nash52: "I told John Diller that I wanted him to build me the lightest 12.5 foot canoe in this quadrant of the universe. He said he built me the lightest 12.5 canoe ever made." You have me now imagining a 16 pound SR Blackwater. And thinking about how many magic beans I might need to trade for such a creature... |
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dex8425 |
Are you tripping more than 20 times/year? Are you already ONLY single portaging? (would assume so) Do you typically do more than 10 portages a day? If the answer to all the above is yes, then yeah, I'd say it'd be worth it to drop ten pounds from your boat. My wife and I are runners and cyclists, so when we backpack, we count grams and pile on the miles. When we canoe trip, we usually do about 12-15 portages a day. That said, we only do 1-2 canoe trips a year, have a limited budget, so our boat is a wenonah sundowner from 1996 that weighs almost 70 pounds. It was $300 bucks, and I still can't justify dropping over a grand for a lighter canoe, because canoeing is like our fifth favorite hobby (we do more cycling, running, backpacking, and xc skiing) I have several really nice bikes, but I race them and spend about 400 hours a year training. |
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TominMpls |
Personally I went with a carbon-kevlar canoe, which is a little heavier than straight kevlar but also a bit more durable. I figured I could handle an extra 3 lbs for durability. |
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dex8425 |
Same analogy works here. If you're super rich and just like canoeing, buy what makes you happy. |
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Crashdavis |
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blackdawg9 |
here is my thinking. you have 15 hour drive here in central ohio. to anywhere with decent water. gas is anywhere from $3.50 to $4 right now. i think it is well worth renting a ultralight canoe. my truck s mpg isnt great right now, add a canoe on top and it s going to get worse. with just the fuel savings. i think it is worth renting a big enough canoe and a light enough canoe. to go out for a time. $40-50 a day rental and not having the stress of reduced visibility or tremoring canoe. i think its worth it now. but it s pain to portage buts doable. i already started doing pushups for spring. to be able to lift and control that penobscot. |
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MReid |
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foxfireniner |
I was carrying it in, was able to check my phone to see if I had bars, and snapchatted my kids all while carrying the Northwind. I giggled with delight the whole way. My philosophy is get the hard work done first so I had to switch to carrying my pack first. But the next trip a few months later to Dissappointment, I took the Osagian. Its short portages don't scare me! If the portages are under a half mile and rated low, I will take the USS Ginormous. Anything that is listed as having an elevation change in a portage or is really long, I am renting lightweight. I do find it funny that people will spend $3000 on a lightweight canoe then still carry in cast iron. |
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timatkn |
lindylair: "Perhaps a different perspective . I would hate to come back from a BWCA paddling trip and feel like I didn't experience a physical challenge different from anything I do in my normal life. Despite moments of discomfort and difficulty, at the end of the day it feels good to push your limits. Yea I get that perspective totally. Even though I go lightweight, for me, I feel like get that same perspective by pushing my travel. My brother and I will put in at noon on Snowbank and be at Raven for a late dinner...My wife and I left Boulder lake, went to Amber for lunch, enjoyed the beach, then left through Kawishiwi and was home in the Twin cities by midnight. Still plenty of soreness going lightweight. Why? Just to see if we can. Don't get me wrong we've done one portage trips to Disappointment or Red Rock too... all fun... but those shorter trips felt like cheating :) I like all my trips the same though just different. T |
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ockycamper |
singlebladecanoe: "Toying with the idea of upgrading my current canoe from 42 pounds to something in the high 20's low 30's. Is shaving 12 pounds in canoe weight worth spending the money to upgrade for? I've already cut all my other gear weight. When is shaving weight no longer beneficial?" You could always drop 12 pounds yourself, save the money, and keep the canoe you have! |
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MReid |
ockycamper:You could always drop 12 pounds yourself, save the money, and keep the canoe you have!" Sorry, but any 12 pounds you might have extra is not sitting directly on your shoulders putting pressure on your trapezius during portages. It sorta works for bicycling (where there's a plethora of weight weenies), but people don't buy light bikes so they can more easily put them on their racks (though light bikes do make it easier, and more enjoyable)--they do it for speed and efficiency (and sense of pleasure, just like light boats). |
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RetiredDave |
Like others who have posted here, I started out in Boy Scouts in the early 60's carrying those heavy aluminum Grumman canoes. Now, as I close in on my 70th birthday, I am so thankful for an ultra-light solo canoe that I can actually pick up and put on my shoulders all by myself. If, at your current age, you are just fine with a 40-pounder, there is probably no need to spend any more money. But those feather-light sweethearts sure are nice! Dave |
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Blatz |
dex8425: "I'll also add that cyclists will spend hundreds of dollars to lose grams off their bike. IMO that's stupid if said cyclist is overweight, doesn't race, doesn't ride fast, and especially stupid if said cyclist is not worth millions of dollars.Although I do agree with the very high end cycling components and spending $1000 to save 1/2 pound is ridiculous unless you're a serious racer. The mid range components function very close to their high end brothers, they're just slightly heavier. With that being said if you ride 2 similar bikes with one being 2 or 3 pounds heavier, you will notice a big difference in handling. Same is true with canoes. Paddle a Wenonah Advantage in Tuffweave and then one in Kevlar you will notice a difference . I'm guess for most people that doesn't matter too much. Unless you do cyclocross you rarely are carrying your bike . But in the canoe tripping world portaging weight is a big deal. |
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Northwoodsman |
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boonie |
My experience is that no matter how much I "can" carry, it's easier to carry less. And 10 lbs. is a good bit less. It's also easier to pick up and put down, which is beneficial at awkward landings. |
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cyclones30 |
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singlebladecanoe |
My current canoe is a composite material solo and would be looking at another solo. Probably a Swift Prospector or Keewaydin but open to other options as well. I'm very familure with Ultralight backpacking as I do that as well with my base pack weight less than 10 pounds (not including food and water). Getting my gear weight down has made it a lot easier on my already beat up knees and shoulders. |
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Sunburn |
Simple question with a simple answer - YES! If you can afford it and the item in question is still fully capable of performing its intended function, lightweight is always better for any activity that involves human powered propulsion. |
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TominMpls |
jillpine: "Super-rich or reasonably frugal. Respectfully disagree with the criteria for buying a canoe under 30 pounds. This is kind of the same head scratching I do when people argue if a PLB is "worth it". Those of you saying it's not worth it, have you paddled and portaged a 25# boat? If you lined up my two burly sons and told them they could chose the SRQ 17, the SRQ 16 or the Trillium, there'd be a sprint to the trillium. So my experience is that UL isn't just for old farts and fartresses. Agree! Also especially Boonie's point - when you're deep in the middle of wilderness at an awkward portage landing, swinging less weight over your head significantly reduces the risk of having to use that PLB. |
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EddyTurn |
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HighnDry |
boonie: "I don't think there's a single answer that fits everyone and every situation, but . . . I agree with boonie's sentiments. I found it was a game changer to carry less weight. |
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carmike |
The vast majority of portages are not so long that the extra pain from 10 lbs. will make *that* much of a difference. Canoeing is not backpacking, thankfully. And if it's a long portage, you'll be suffering regardless of the reduced weight -- especially if you have a backpack on. And if you're double portaging, all the more reason the extra 10 won't matter that much. Just my .02 . |
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bwcadan |
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Frenchy19 |
timatkn: "Yes" +1 |
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JoanNorthwest |
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