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Boundary Waters Quetico Forum :: Gear Forum :: Gear Standards
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| OCDave |
My first tent; my most loved tent; my most cherished tent, a Quest Preying Mantis, rarely gets used these days. It is 25+ years old (built when Quest made premier equipment), a bit heavy for a 2 person shelter and complicated to set up. But even though it predated the first Tarptents by a decade, it still touts a design that looks contemporary and performs fantastically. Some say, it is the best tent ever designed. The 4-season version was Backpacker Magazine Editor's Choice for best backpacking Gear of 1994. It remains one of my best gear purchases. Despite the magnificence of the Quest Preying Mantis, if judged on any set of arbitrary standards it would most likely have never sold. Perhaps, the Preying Mantis would never have been built because compared to most 2 person tents sold in 1993-94, this one was a bit heavy (around 6 lbs if I recall properly). It is a bit narrow toward the foot end, and while you can sit upright in the middle the foot end is lower so, compared to competitors, or a "standard", there is less area inside the tent. Setting up the Preying Mantis required a lot of practice, much more time than less innovative tents and a little witchery. The reward was a supper durable tent, nearly impervious to wind or weather and an enormous vestibule for packs and boots. A "Standard" tent it is not. |
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| butthead |
OCDave: "I prefer exceptional to "Standard". Made me look it up! And a high "cool factor" is displayed. I like a bunch of tents and have almost as many as I do stoves. Very nice! butthead |
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| justpaddlin |
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| butthead |
butthead |
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| theokbushman |
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| theokbushman |
Although it would be ultimately difficult to come up with a software package that would be able to evaluate the time it takes to assemble the tent, I would like to propose a standard instead. A numerical standard for all gear to be tested against one another. There are standards used all the time for everything ASTM, ASME, ISO. From what I am aware, is there is no viable way to compare outdoor gear in a numerical way besides weight? From the tent example, I could think of the following: Takedown speed (The average speed for ten takedowns after the user has taken down the tent a minimum of twenty times) Setup speed (The average speed for ten setups after the user has set up the tent a minimum of twenty times) The thermal resistance of the tent (the time it takes for a tent to return to ambient temperature after being raised twenty degrees above it) Wind resistance (The wind speed needed to dislodge or collapse a tent) Water resistance (There is hydrostatic testing for fabrics, but it isn't widely available for tents) Thoughts and comments are appreciated!! "This might seem a bit odd as it’s not an idea for physical gear but digital gear. Last year when I was looking for a new 3 person tent, I spent much time evaluating REI's “compare” feature which gives side by side measures of such things as size, packed weight, size, etc. as a solo traveler, an absolutely key feature for me is “set up/take down time” for which there seems to be no measure at all. I have several times wondered if it would be possible to create software that would evaluate how many steps were involved in setting up and taking down a tent and other gear - at least to provide a product by product relative comparison." - Jaywalker |
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| Northwoodsman |
I can get a really good indication by looking at a photo of a tent without the rainfly on it to determine how long it will take to set it up. Another photo with the rainfly is also very helpful. In addition to my traditional tents have a CCS Lean 2 and a CCS Lean 3. On my last trip with the Lean 2 we moved each night and set it up 3 times, there were two of us. Day 1 took about 15-20 minutes, day 2 took about 10-15 minutes, and day 3 took 45 minutes. Day three should have been the quickest but it wasn't because of rocks, lack of trees for tie-outs and heavy wind on a point. I like to read user reviews and see what people think. It's easy to weed out the ones that are user issues. I like to base decisions based on both facts and opinions. |
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| clrose |
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| AmarilloJim |
butthead: "Not a fan of producing to a set of standards. They have intruded more than far enough into society, and applying standards to personnel gear is overdoing it. I'll offer the sleeping bag rating system EN as an example. Something to compare products but useless when it comes to personal preference, and actual user needs. What BH said! |
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| EddyTurn |
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| Chuckles |
justpaddlin: "I agree that the idea of standard testing has merit. A website or other organization can do standardized (internal) testing without "testing to a standard" that is consistent across manufacturers (which requires standard facilities and external audits and all kinds of complex/expensive stuff) but if someone like Backpacker magazine wanted to offer standard data (like 0-60 acceleration times or 60-0 braking distances for cars) they'd just need to establish a testing activity and start creating reasonably simple and repeatable testing procedures. The data would lack precision versus true standard engineering test procedures but with a thoughtful approach there's a good chance one could establish a few metrics that would capture signifIcant differences between tents for set-up time, wind resistance or thermal performance. But with even the simplest approach you need to buy some equipment and hire someone (preferably with specific technical skills) to do the work...and there are lots of ways to accidentally create meaningless or misleading information." If fairly simple standards could be developed, then people could easily unofficially test their own gear. This seems like the perfect job for youtubers everywhere. There are 1000s of videos of people testing different stove/pot combos in how fast they can boil water. The best ones are side-by-side comparisons because the testing is more uniform. As Dan Cooke said, perfectly repeatable tests would be difficult and expensive. I can imagine a boot test where you put a 1-L water bottle of 98.6 degree water into a boot, cover the top of the boot with 2" blue foam and take the temperature of the water after 1 hour. You'd have to control for starting temperature of the boot and ambient temperature, but this would tell you something. I think this sort of test has big value when two boots are tested by the same person. These aren't going to give you absolute values, but will tell you decent relative values. There seem to be endless amount of people willing to make youtube videos of them testing camping gear. The problem I have with this approach is the information is scattered and there is incentive for people to make the videos longer so they gain more ad revenue. Perhaps some of the companies that do reviews (Outdoor gear lab, REI, etc.) would adopt these standards and start including them in their reviews. |
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| mschi772 |
Chuckles: "Perhaps some of the companies that do reviews (Outdoor gear lab, REI, etc.) would adopt these standards and start including them in their reviews. " This isn't unprecedented. TireRack is an example that comes to mind of a vendor doing a lot of their own comparisons and tests (importantly, while providing the context of the tests they perform). Much of the information and conclusions have no basis in industry standard but do serve to compare and contrast products and inform shoppers. Unfortunately for this example, TireRack is more well known its user reviews which are a mess of uninformed/inexperienced users and logical fallacies like confirmation bias and very little scientific method. |
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| Jaywalker |
butthead: "Not a fan of producing to a set of standards. They have intruded more than far enough into society, and applying standards to personnel gear is overdoing it. I'll offer the sleeping bag rating system EN as an example. Something to compare products but useless when it comes to personal preference, and actual user needs. Intruding on society? I was thinking of something a bit less Orwellian! I actually think the EN system is a great parallel. It can't tell you what sleeping bag to buy - there are too many other factors like weight, costs, insulation material, shape, and even brand preference. It also wont tell you if a bag will keep you warm - there are too many other factors like if you sleep hot or cold, humidity, wind, ground insulation, etc. But it does one very important thing in my mind - it does a fair job of saying "all things equal, this bag is warmer than that bag". Without it, we would have for sleeping bags what we have in winter boots - temperature ratings completely based on what the producing company wants to promote. I saw a pair of winter boots last year rated to -100ºf - really, that's nuts. It may be imperfect and clearly not the only factor - but I can't imagine anyone buying a sleeping bag without considering what the temperature rating was. My thinking on a time of set up/take down comes largely from my traveling solo on trips. Like sleeping bags, other factors certainly fit in, but I still think it would be helpful to have an idea of "this tent is faster for one person to set up than that tent". To make it easier to measure and compare, lets just assume we have one person setting up a tent on a fairly calm day on a soccer field where it is easy to push stakes into the ground. Questions that might fit into this equation might be: (1) how many stakes do you have to put into the ground for the tent to stand (most free-standing tents still require some stakes fore the vestibule if not the whole tent - my Nemo Losi 3 does not set up well if I don't put in 8 stakes - 4 on the corners and 4 on the vestibule, (2) how many poles are there? My Losi has 4, though the two long ones are joined. Some tent designs say they have single pole, but that pole has branches on each end and a jointed spreader on top. Somehow this could be evaluated to figure out how long it takes vs other pole designs. (3) how many points of attachment are there from the tent to the poles? (4) how many steps does one person have to take back and forth to set it up? This is especially important on solo travel and why it does not take 2x as much time for one person to set up a tent vs 2 people, but something more like 3x or more. Walking back and forth is a real time killer. Part of my original thinking on this is from personal experience setting up my Snowtrekker Basecamp tent - something I have done many times while wearing snow shoes because the snow had not yet sintered for me to walk. It can take me 20 minutes easily to set up, and longer to take down. I also think of a video I once saw of an Iditarod musher who, after fully tending to his team at a stop, pulled out a pop up tent (similar to what my nephew had when he was 5) that just came out of the stuff sack and erected itself - in just seconds he tossed a sleeping bag inside and was napping. |
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| Jaywalker |
EddyTurn: "Would you really choose your next house based on how long it takes to get to the front door from the driveway?" Very unlikely, but I doubt there is much variation from one house to the next on this matter. Perhaps tent set up/take down is the same - I am not sure. On the other hand, would you really choose you next house without considering how long it took you to get to work, or to schools, or to grocery stores? You have to forgive me in that in that I do not know if you have ever travelled solo canoeing. I know my original idea would not matter to everyone. Most solo travelers quickly learn that one of the biggest differences from group travel is you have to do all the chores yourself - tarp set up, tent set up, firewood gathering, cooking cleaning, water purification, etc. Same goes for camp takedown. A lot of us (not all perhaps) do scrutinize how long it takes us to do certain tasks. This becomes even more important in the shoulder seasons when daylight is less and weather worse, but can also matter in summer when mosquitos are biting or rain is falling. If I could find a similar size tent that I thought I could reliably set up in 3 fewer minutes, I would consider changing from my current tent. A bit part of why I went for the Losi is the take down was much faster with no rolling involved, just stuffing into their burrito bag. If I could find something faster, it would easily be as important to me as packed weight. |
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| theokbushman |
I found it infuriating when looking at boots earlier this week and was looking into how fast they would dry and was met with "quick-drying material" a metric under standard conditions would be very useful in this situation. What does quick-drying even mean if I get my winter boots wet and put them in the sun they will probably take a week to dry, so if my hikers take a day or two is that "quick"? |
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| prettypaddle |
clrose: "https://xkcd.com/927/" Love XKCD! But if they ever do come up with a tent set up rating scale, I sure hope there's an option to customize it based on the number and age of children who are "helping" to set it up. For instance, are there enough orange poles that each child can snap one together? That sort of info is the real dirt I need right now. |
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| EddyTurn |
Jaywalker: "If I could find a similar size tent that I thought I could reliably set up in 3 fewer minutes, I would consider changing from my current tent. A bit part of why I went for the Losi is the take down was much faster with no rolling involved, just stuffing into their burrito bag. If I could find something faster, it would easily be as important to me as packed weight. " I've never owned a tent that required rolling - it's one's choice how to do it and I see no reason to roll. Of course my experience is limited. 3-4 minutes is a reasonable time for putting down a 1-2 person tent. No much room for improvement here compared to tarp dismantling - for me it takes at least 15 minutes with all 15 ropes involved in proper setup. |
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| jwartman59 |
I’ve had a few tents. It had never concerned me about how long it takes to setup a tent. Way long time ago we used canvas tents, we’d have to find poles in the woods for setup. Usually 12’ spruce. Boy Scout stuff. Never gave it a thought until we saw the eureka timberlines. Those were quick setups by the wat |
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| DanCooke |
What to test, how to test, what to report would take years of the big players of whatever product you are testing to agree on a standard- often filled with loopholes so everyone's product can make a claim on the best whatever. As a whole in manufacturing only the mass produced items are ever tested to standards., sample testing on less critical items where the manufacturing process is predictable. (I designed and built automated testing equipment for over 21 years. The machines I designed measured and tested products mostly for 100 percent testing for car frames, wheel bearings brake rotors, pistons, cylinder sleeves, rocker arms, turbo scrolls and many other car components, as well as testing multiple components for best assembly selection, such as pick to light machines that informed assemblers proper shims when assembling head + valve assemblies and or lower units on outboard engines . Sample testing on aluminum cans and bottles) |
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| billconner |
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| PineKnot |
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| pswith5 |
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| Savage Voyageur |
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| TuscaroraBorealis |
I think I can somewhat relate to wanting a standard but, i have to agree with those who say its not realistic or would ever be truly reliable. Way too many variables. Generally, what I do when I'm considering a new piece of gear is to poke around in this forum (and other websites) to see what some of the 'veteran' members (for example - butthead, DanCooke and others) have to say, or said, about a product. Thats not a 100% guarantee but, it has served me well over the years. There's a canoe country saying, "its more the journey than the destination", that can also apply to this topic as well. |