Boundary Waters Quetico Forum :: Gear Forum :: 33 lb. Northstar Polaris
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justpaddlin |
I also prefer the way Swift mounts their carbon seats and the fact that the Swift carbon seats are contoured. I'll be curious to see whether Northstar will sell just the seat because I'd consider putting one on my Bell Merlin II to save 2-3 pounds if the price was reasonable. |
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sns |
justpaddlin: "I wonder how the strength and durability compare to a BlackLite Polaris. It's hard to tell from sns' pics but it looks like it has only one thwart (vs the normal 2) and looks like the one thwart isn't a kneeling thwart. You have to have a kneeling thwart or center seat in a Polaris since it solos so well. Pretty sure they have two (non-kneeling) thwarts and a yoke on the Stealth Polaris; I bet that's overkill given the extra stiffness of the carbon fiber gunwales. And as a guy who has replaced the seat on his Northstar Magic - the seat & drops & hardware on mine weighed 2lb 6oz. I crafted and use a minicell seat (build in the DIY subforum) which weighs 12 ounces. So net weight reduction for me is 1lb 10oz...however I bet you don't save quite that much with a traditional-form, CF seat in your Merlin...probably just over one pound. But a pound is a pound - go for it if they'll sell it to you! |
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sns |
Piragis has one now, and is getting another in May and another in July. They are all-black. Outside, but also inside too. They look amazing. Sounds like all the things that are normally wood or aluminum are Carbon Fiber (E6). The Thwarts and the Yoke are through-bolted. Some manufacturers (Swift and Placid Boatworks, I believe) infuse and permanently connect those CF components. So NS has gone the modular route. |
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sns |
Looks like the seats are also CF/E6, in the traditional form-factor with webbing. Black webbing, of course. They are hung from the gunwales the same way as on their other canoes. |
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sns |
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martian |
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RunningFox |
Materials include carbon fiber/innegra and Arimid. The gunwales, deck, seat, and thwarts are E6 carbon. Paragis said only 6 would be produced this year. The price is rather high at $4,595. The idea of such a light wt. canoe is very appealing, especially as I get older. What do you think? |
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Banksiana |
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mschi772 |
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sns |
I think that sounds tempting. Not seeing it online - do they have photos? Is Piragis getting all 6? |
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MagicPaddler |
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mschi772 |
MidwestFirecraft: "I may be on my own on this one but unless I was solely paddling deep lakes I wouldn't be interested in an all carbon canoe. The beauty of the Carbon/Kevlar is that it is light and stiff, yet can take some significant hits on unsuspecting rocks, etc. " "Materials include carbon fiber/innegra and Arimid" Aramid = Kevlar. Innegra is pretty good on taking impacts and abrasion as well. If you're referring to my comment on others who build "all carbon" boats, I apologize. None of them are ALL carbon. What I meant is that they build with layups that use carbon and they also have carbon gunnels, yokes, thwarts, etc. Swift's carbon boats still incorporate aramid and innegra, and so do Savage River. |
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MidwestFirecraft |
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sns |
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MidwestFirecraft |
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Banksiana |
justpaddlin: " Savage River will sell their carbon seats- buy the ones with the pad. I got to spend some time in a Swift Cruiser 16.8- terrible seat design, it was a brand new boat and the carbon fiber seat was already cracking. The owner returned the canoe for a new one with an upgraded seat design- better but still a bit questionable. Swift's layup and construction of the hull absolutely top-notch- a beautiful design and execution. |
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Banksiana |
justpaddlin: " Sorry- I think Savage River offers only tractor seats. I assumed tractor when you said carbon fiber. They do have a nice system for a tractor seat that can change heights to accommodate kneeling. Not an option for me with touchy knees and size 13 Muck boots. |
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justpaddlin |
Banksiana: "justpaddlin: " Thanks for the tip, I'll take a look at the Savage River seats. I'd be looking for a regular webbed seat that allows kneeling, it looks like the Cruiser uses a tractor seat. Swift also makes a contoured seat with carbon frame that looks a lot like their wood frame countoured seats which I like a lot. |
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sns |
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justpaddlin |
sns: "justpaddlin: "I wonder how the strength and durability compare to a BlackLite Polaris. It's hard to tell from sns' pics but it looks like it has only one thwart (vs the normal 2) and looks like the one thwart isn't a kneeling thwart. You have to have a kneeling thwart or center seat in a Polaris since it solos so well. I'm curious about stiffness/strength/durability partly because the E6 gunwales ar the only ones that include a caution "not meant for whitewater". Maybe they are stiff but brittle, I don't know. Also just FYI when I spoke to Swift about possibly installing some carbon parts in a couple of my canoes (both now sold) they pointed out that the carbon fiber thwarts are not as strong as wood, presumably because they are hollow and biased towards weight savings. I put a black walnut seat from edscanoe on my Merlin II to replace the stock seat. It's beautiful and you can feel the added stiffness...but it made the boat noticeably heavier so I think I'd appreciate a carbon fiber replacement. |
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Banksiana |
Talked with John Diller yesterday. They are considering offering the increased volume Blackwater hull as a new model- BlackwaterX. Adds about 1/2" of gunwale width to paddling station. Mr. Diller felt it might be the better option for dog-tripping. |
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sns |
Option B is that my dog could lose some weight. :-) |
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Voyager |
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Voyager |
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mschi772 |
justpaddlin: "Also just FYI when I spoke to Swift about possibly installing some carbon parts in a couple of my canoes (both now sold) they pointed out that the carbon fiber thwarts are not as strong as wood" This is the kind of practical information about their products I wish they would share more freely. All their published info and advertising is just Bill Swift grinning and telling you how "beautiful" everything it. "Beautiful carbon." "Beautiful cherry wood." "Beautiful curve in the chine area." "Beautiful H-weave pattern." "Beautiful Textreme." "Beautiful basalt innegra." Nothing useful about stiffness, strength, weight, repairability, resilience... So frustrating. I feel like it's because they're being overprotective of their designs, but I don't choose a canoe strictly based on how "beautiful" its features are especially when the guy selling them thinks literally everything is "beautiful." |
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sns |
Voyager: "I paid dearly for Textreme on my Blackwater, but it looks so "purty"." Well, now we're going to need some photos, aren't we? |
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tumblehome |
I did notice the carbon fiber portage yoke. It’s a slick looking canoe for sure and will probably be sold in short order. The price tag is at the very upper limits of the price of a new canoe. Only wood canvas canoes sells for that amount. When you build a premium canoes, you can make a premium profit. Tom |
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justpaddlin |
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Voyager |
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sns |
Aramid does come in black - could be wrong but I think their starlite is a black & yellow aramid weave. I too was wondering about the heat factor in high summer - paddling in an oven might not be fun! |
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sns |
mschi772: " but if this is $1200 extra to dye a E6 starlite black and shave 4 lb with carbon yoke/thwart/seat, then yikes." It's all about perspective...most will likely agree wholeheartedly with you. This is actually +$1300...plus tax puts you right at $1400 extra over a $3295 Starlite/E6 Polaris. That makes it about $22/ounce of weight saved, assuming 4 pounds lighter for the Stealth Polaris. UL backpackers generally look for weight savings in the $10 to $20 / oz range. So even by their standards, this is a little pricy, but perhaps not obscenely so. |
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mschi772 |
sns: "I recall the NS folks saying that the E6 gunwales are very stiff, so it should help performance. I was comparing it to E6-equipped starlite/blacklite, so the E6 gunnels aren't a factor in comparing the physical performance of the stealth to the starlite/blacklite. And yes, their starlite is yellow+black, but from the looks of the stealth in the photos provided, the weave looks identical to their starlite aramid fabric, not like any carbon fiber I've ever seen, so until someone shares some more information, I'm presuming that this Polaris Stealth is just using starlite that is all black instead of black+yellow. |
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sns |
"Yes, Piragis has a Stealth version of the Polaris. Carbon/Innegra outer and black aramid inner. E6 trim and E6 parts. Weight 33lb." |
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Banksiana |
mschi772: "< Looks like a standard carbon fiber weave to me. Star-lite is a combination of kevlar and carbon fiber woven together. Check the Savage River website for decent images of all the weaves that carbon is available in. Most manufacturers use a carbon outer layer attached to a layer of kevlar for tripping or touring canoes. Carbon is stiffer and has greater abrasion resistance, but it is brittle and subject to impact injury; by mating carbon to kevlar you get the best of both worlds. Racing hulls value stiffness and lightness over durability and thus are willing to use an all carbon lay up. Kevlar is more durable for interior of the hull on a tripping boat as carbon can be injured (due to brittleness) when packs (heavy and may contain hard objects) are loaded and unloaded. Not to mention the possible heat factor. |
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sns |
tumblehome: "Piragis has one hanging in their store as of Sat." I for one would like to see some photos - very interested to see how they've executed the thwarts, yoke and seats. |
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MidwestFirecraft |
mschi772: ""Materials include carbon fiber/innegra and Arimid" My bad, I thought it was an all carbon layup. I'm curious how they add innegra and get the weight lower than the blacklight carbon/kevlar mix? They keep coming up with new and amazing layups! |
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mschi772 |
MidwestFirecraft: "mschi772: ""Materials include carbon fiber/innegra and Arimid" As I understand it, Northstar's blacklight is starlight with a layer of carbon added to the exterior. I'm guessing that these special Polarises *replace* a layer of aramid with carbon/innegra rather than just adding an extra layer. The carbon gunnels and carbon hardware/seats reduces weight compared to aluminum & wood. |
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mjmkjun |
If you've got bucks to spare then go for it!! |
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sns |
Any limitations compared to say, a Magic, in terms of rougher water? |
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sns |
Voyager: "One quick photo, since you asked. This was before I abused it on 2 border route trips, 500 miles in total, including twice on the Pigeon River to Ft. Charlotte. I'm in the process of adding a rudder to it to help in the wind on an August border trip. One plus for buying the Polaris from Piragis ( if that canoe turns your crank) is, there is no waiting. I shudder to think what the wait time would be on ordering a new canoe from the manufacturer today. " That's a sweet looking ride. How much rocker does a blackwater have? |
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sns |
If anyone is in the store and can post better pictures, have at it! |
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Banksiana |
sns: "Voyager: "One quick photo, since you asked. This was before I abused it on 2 border route trips, 500 miles in total, including twice on the Pigeon River to Ft. Charlotte. I'm in the process of adding a rudder to it to help in the wind on an August border trip. One plus for buying the Polaris from Piragis ( if that canoe turns your crank) is, there is no waiting. I shudder to think what the wait time would be on ordering a new canoe from the manufacturer today. " None. Unless you ask them to increase the fullness (gunwale width)of the boat when you order it. Lead time from order to delivery recently was about two months according to Savage River. |
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Voyager |
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sns |
Banksiana: "None. Unless you ask them to increase the fullness (gunwale width)of the boat when you order it." Are you pulling my leg on this, or can this be done? |
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Banksiana |
sns: "Banksiana: "None. Unless you ask them to increase the fullness (gunwale width)of the boat when you order it." I've corresponded with John Diller (designer of Blackwater) at Savage River concerning the suitability of the Blackwater for tripping with a decent sized canine companion. Quoting Mr. Diller: "If you are going to have a heavy load we can raise the gunwale 1" to give you more freeboard and we can also spread the gunwale a little if you want to add a little volume to it as well. It will also put a little rocker in it which will make it turn easier but not track as straight." |
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sns |
Banksiana: "sns: "Banksiana: "None. Unless you ask them to increase the fullness (gunwale width)of the boat when you order it." Nice - and John should know! I have the same issue - I've looked at the pics of the Blackwater and thought the 53lb dog would be tight up front. The idea of putting a hair of rocker in a solo that long is also appealing. |
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mschi772 |
I certainly have questions bouncing around in my head. A starlight with carbon gunnels is listed as 37 lb I think and blacklite with E6 is 39 lb, so for something like $900-1200 extra this boat shaves 4-6 lb, has carbon yoke/thwart/seat, and a carbon interior. Is that doing anything for the performance of the canoe other than changing its cosmetic look and shaving a few lb? I respect weight savings, but paying *that much* more just for a few pounds? Also wondering how the black interior feels on a hot, sunny day. Also, looking at the photos, it is hard to tell with the lower resolution, but the material/pattern on the outer hull looks more like their starlite aramid dyed black instead of carbon fiber. Now I have more questions about what the hull layup actually is. Maybe if this boat had the stiffness and ruggedness of blacklite, it might be reasonable to upgrade for something like $500-700 more, but if this is $1200 extra to dye a E6 starlite black and shave 4 lb with carbon yoke/thwart/seat, then yikes. |
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mschi772 |
Banksiana: "mschi772: "And yes, their starlite is yellow+black, but from the looks of the stealth in the photos provided, the weave looks identical to their starlite aramid fabric, not like any carbon fiber I've ever seen, so until someone shares some more information, I'm presuming that this Polaris Stealth is just using starlite that is all black instead of black+yellow." No carbon in the standard starlite layup to my knowledge, and I have been deeply researching many different companies' layups very recently and consuming as much information from them as I can find, including Savage River for that matter. sns: "From Bear Paulsen, posted with permission: Glad it isn't just a black starlite. Carbon+innegra weave is a nice choice--Swift has had a lot of success with it, and the only reason I don't already own a Swift is that they don't have a boat quite like the Polaris. If they did, there'd be no contest as I love how their carbon+kevlar gunnels are integrated into the hull (don't actually know if E6 is similarly integrated or made separately and added to the hull after) and I prefer the way they reinforce their hulls and mount the seats directly to the hull instead of hanging them from the gunnels. Even with all there is to love, I want a Polaris more. |