Boundary Waters Quetico Forum :: Gear Forum :: Solo canoe. Single or double bladed paddle?
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MReid |
justpaddlin: "Banksiana: " You need to watch good sit-and-switchers. I come from a racing background, and I'm a diehard bent shafter/sitter. Even while touring with a loaded boat, I maintain at least 50 strokes a minute, and I don't loose time or momentum with the switch. If you're kneeling, I seriously doubt you have an effective technique for efficient bent shaft/switching use (which is what Banksiana references). There's a world of difference between kneeling and sitting/switching techniques, and your engineering analysis based on your kneeling techniques is way off. |
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Banksiana |
justpaddlin: " The effect of yaw related to distance from centerline is very significant (10-15% is significant). This can be easily and intuitively demonstrated if you think of the corrective strokes used when "parking" a canoe as you approach a landing- to gain leverage one performs these strokes at a greater distance from the center line of the boat. Double blade does not mean "boat maintains a more constant speed". No reason why a hit and switch technique cannot maintain the same cadence as a double blade; strokes should not be further apart with single blade. Both techniques should be using short strokes (a bent shaft paddle stroke should end before your lower hand reaches your hip) with a swift cadence. This question demonstrates a lack of understanding of an efficient seated bent shaft paddle technique. A bent shaft paddle is designed to increase efficiency by maximizing the portion of the stroke when the blade is vertical or near vertical in the water. If the stroke is continued past the hip the blade cants off the vertical axis and a portion of the energy of the stroke is directed at pulling the hull into the water. The bent shaft is designed to be used in a seated position. When paddling from a kneeling position a straight shaft (though it is very important that the shaft not be too long) is more effective as kneeling shifts the "bend" to keep the blade vertical from paddle shaft to posture. |
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jillpine |
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schweady |
So, we were all set to rent a tandem and a 15-1/2 ft Northwind solo this year. Only after canceling did it get me to thinking: I have to say, I'm a very proficient stern paddler. Aiming at a point and steering to maintain or alter course is second nature. We'll switch sides only occasionally, and I tell my bow paddler that it's up to them, I'll watch and switch accordingly. On those seldom occasions, I'll ask for them to switch to a particular side to help with wind or current, etc. Anyway... When this option comes up again for future trips, and we try a solo canoe, would I want to consider a double-bladed paddle? Or, just steer with a single? Mostly, just got to wondering about efficiency, fatigue, possible disadvantages, etc. Not looking for specific models, unless it enters into the reasoning behind various advantages. Thanks. |
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justpaddlin |
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Banksiana |
However if you are proficient at switching sides with a bent shaft from a raised seat center position it is the most efficient means of propelling your craft. |
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Dilligaf0220 |
Would say it is entirely dependent on skill level over all else, and also depends on how long you're going to be in the boat. A double blade is still going to beat you up 2x. Current quiver is a bent shaft ZRE and an Ottertail. Ottertail is for the in-water recovery zen fishing, ZRE for when I want to cover water. Can paddle both all day, not so much the double blade. |
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jhb8426 |
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YetiJedi |
BonzSF: "After just returning from a 10 day Mudro-Beartrap-Sunday lake PMA-Iron -Crooked-Basswood falls -Horse River Loop. I did the whole thing with the double blade and loved it. We had good weather, bad weather, wind., sun and rain. It worked well for me that I could instantly adjust the pressure on either side to keep tracking. Though I couldn't keep up with the tandem, I could keep a straighter track than them. It does get you wet but it was relatively warm in August so that wasn't much of a factor. I got a lot more water in the boat when it was poring rain on a couple of the days. I did learn to shallow stroke and greatly reduced the water coming in. you learn a lot in 10 days of paddling. Glad your trip went well! Hope to read the report when you get to it. Also good to hear about your experience with a double blade. Thanks for sharing the newbie perspective. I also appreciate the fact that you are enjoying it enough to commit to many more years of paddling...it doesn't get much better, in my opinion, than being out in the wilderness. Again, glad your trip went well! |
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BonzSF |
That being said, I am basically a newbie at canoe tripping ( 2nd BW trip) and don't really know how to J-stroke. I barely know how to paddle correctly. The double paddle worked great when I got in the rhythm. It worked MUCH better that the tandem on oxbow section of the beartrap river. I could make the corners much quicker and easier. Same length boat but narrower and drew less draft. Wenonah Prism vs Wenonah Basswood 17. So if you're a beginner I think the learning curve is a lot easier with the double. I'll let you know in a couple of years when I learn how to use a proper paddle. |
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Banksiana |
I have tripped often with my solo and a tandem. I am usually the one waiting. |
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schweady |
Keep 'em coming, if you don't mind... |
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scat |
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ForestDuff |
I thought a double blade would work great for me. My shoulders did not agree, it felt awkward, I've dislocated both of them, not sure if that had anything to do with it. Before going with the solo I was always the power bow paddler. A single blade just feels more natural to me. And I'm with scat above........too wet for me for BW trips, I'm usually going in the shoulder season's. The main goal of any day is to stay as dry as possible. Even with drip rings, too much gets wet. I retired it after one trip and went back to bringing 2 single paddles. |
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DanCooke |
keth0601: "DanCooke: "Single Blade padding whenever I am in a canoe. Straight, Bent, Spoon depends on what I am trying to do on the water. Sam Cook (no relation to me) just did a piece for the Duluth paper on him and friends poling up a portion of the Brule. John F sullivan -Misissippi river paddlers group moderator on facebook has poled up the entire brule and than gone down the St Croix. , Scott Oeth from Bull Moose Patrol on facebook (located in MSP) is a big time poler and registered Maine guide. I have never poled at all and would be a poor one to ask about it |
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Voyager |
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straighthairedcurly |
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Blatz |
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justpaddlin |
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quark2222 |
I found that the canoe paddle (a straight one) worked just as well as the kayak paddle for maneuvering, and speed. So, I still use a kayak paddle as my primary, but would have no issues just standardizing on a regular paddle. The yak paddle comes in handy when putting up bear and tarp ropes, plus a few other uses. It's pretty much what you feel comfortable with, but I would not underestimate just using a regular paddle. The yak paddle is nice in winds for keeping a straight line, as you can just adjust the paddling pressure on the stroke on each side of the canoe to compensate for side winds. I don't spend a lot on yak paddles. I think the replacement I bought a couple of years ago was around $125. You don't need carbon or ridiculously expensive ones. Mine is a straight shaft that snaps together in the middle. Tomster quark2222 |
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boonie |
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YetiJedi |
boonie: "I take one of each, the other is a spare. I usually use the double, but like to switch up from time to time. I have done it since the early years when I was experimenting to see what worked best for me. I did not have much canoe paddling experience of any kind. I'd suggest taking one of each and seeing which one you prefer in various situations. " +1 for taking one of each. I use the double 70% of the time when tripping and maybe 30% when exploring. |
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bhouse46 |
My message, go with what you know. Unless you have opportunity to become familiar with a new paddle or style you might find it just doesn't work for you. As to efficiency and such I am encouraged to believe the low angle double blade gets the best ratings. I really appreciate my double blade in choppy water and especially when wind and wave are across the bow. |
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IndyCanoe |
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Kermit |
Since I’ll be going on some pretty sizable lakes, and after reading this post and doing some other research, I decided to pick up a 260cm kayak paddle and see what I thought. Wow. It feels totally sacrilegious to traditional canoe paddling, but the efficacy is absolutely undeniable. I set a personal best for getting around the lake on my first trip out. The tracking and speed made me an instant believer. Similar feel to a sit and switch method with a single blade but much less effort. I could easily keep up with a tandem. It’ll likely be my primary paddle next month, with a single blade for a backup. If you’ve been considering giving it a try, I highly recommend. Thanks all for the insightful thoughts here and for making me reevaluate my bias against the double blade. |
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OCDave |
If I had need to keep up with a tandem, I might concede the need for a double-bladed kayak paddle but, I wouldn't feel good about it. |
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justpaddlin |
Banksiana: " As an engineer and a paddler I'm really curious about all the little physics details and I wonder if your statement is always true. My thoughts... - I agree it's more efficient to apply the paddle force close to centerline of boat? But how much more efficient? You lose little if any forward thrust due to boat yaw...but boat yaw does affect efficiency (I read one paper that saw yaw-induced drag was 10-15% of total drag). So which yaws more, a boat driven with a single blade or a double where you are switching sides much more often? - Double blade means the boat maintains a more constant speed, it doesn't slow down as much between power strokes and doesn't need to be accelerated as hard between each stroke. I think that's fundamentally more efficient than the same amount of power delivered through bigger power strokes spaced further apart. And if the boat slows down less with a double I think that means that there should be less slip (loss) between blade and water. - What about ergonomic effects? I don't know. Even with just a single blade I know I'm more efficient kneeling than sitting. I have no idea how efficiently I can deliver my limited power through a double vs a single and I also wonder about possible differences among people. Anyway, sorry for going all engineer nerd on ya. |
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sns |
And agree that you may want it to attempt to keep up with the tandem. |
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gravelroad |
When I want to get somewhere solo, I use a double blade from midships and bring a single blade as backup. |
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Sparkeh |
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jillpine |
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sueb2b |
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kbobb |
Thanks |
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YetiJedi |
kbobb: "Currently looking for a new double blade for my new solo. What length paddle do you all like? my new boat is 26.5" at the gunnels, 28.5" at the widest point. Very similar to a NW solo in dimensions. I usually use a 52" bent shaft ZRE but the doubles are better for me in wind, heavy waves, etc. Hey Kbob...I don't always use a kayak paddle, but when I do I paddle a 270 cm Accent Air. I'm 6'2" tall and my Wenonah Basswood is 31" wide. To the OP, if I was soloing in a group of tandem paddlers, I believe I would use the double paddle almost the entire time just to keep up. |
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moray |
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Frenchy19 |
boonie: "I take one of each, the other is a spare. I usually use the double, but like to switch up from time to time. I have done it since the early years when I was experimenting to see what worked best for me. I did not have much canoe paddling experience of any kind. I'd suggest taking one of each and seeing which one you prefer in various situations. " This. That said, I use the single blade much more often unless I am on big water and want to move. |
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keth0601 |
Personally I find paddling in more of a traditional/Canadian style more comfortable and less tiring so I tend to favor more traditional hulls and a single-blade. I haven't found (in my limited GPS speed testing) that I do any better or move any faster with a double blade than a single, but I enjoy the experience much more with a single blade. |
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MikeinMpls |
Mike |
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DanCooke |
Double blade is used only in a kayak for me. |
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keth0601 |
DanCooke: "Single Blade padding whenever I am in a canoe. Straight, Bent, Spoon depends on what I am trying to do on the water. A little OT, but Dan I've been meaning to ask if you do much poling as well? I think I read some of your info about paddling up the Brule and doing the Brule - St Croix Portage. Was thinking about doing the same but wondering if poling would be the way to go when going upstream on the Brule. I'm an amateur poler, but in my limited experience it seems to work really well on the Brule... |