Click to View the Full Thread

Author	Message Text
Pinetree	09/17/2024 10:52AM   TrailZen: "LaVirginienne, I'm very sorry to hear that two of your three Wenonah paddles delaminated, but am a bit confused about your mode of failure. You say that you had the blades repaired, so this was not the same shaft problem I experienced? Meanwhile, my first response from Wenonah was "Very interesting. You could send us a picture..." I've sent the same photo I included with my original post here, but have not heard back from them yet. TZ" Botom line-which is more dependable-wood or carbon?
LaVirginienne	09/16/2024 09:54PM   Two of my three Wenonah carbon fiber paddles have delammed. I just had their blades repaired affordably with the help of a local specialist in carbon bicycle repair. If you ask around, you may be able to find a similar shop/craftsman near you.
TrailZen	09/17/2024 09:03AM   LaVirginienne, I'm very sorry to hear that two of your three Wenonah paddles delaminated, but am a bit confused about your mode of failure. You say that you had the blades repaired, so this was not the same shaft problem I experienced? Meanwhile, my first response from Wenonah was "Very interesting. You could send us a picture..." I've sent the same photo I included with my original post here, but have not heard back from them yet. TZ
TrailZen	09/17/2024 01:57PM   Pinetree: " Botom line-which is more dependable-wood or carbon?" I've broken several wooden paddles. I've never broken a carbon or fiberglass paddle, and once owned a fiberglass Norse whitewater guide paddle that I think one could have felled trees or dug trenches with (and it weighed 3 pounds!). The Wenonah paddle I'm dealing with exhibited its crack on day 6 of a 10-day trip, yet I continued using it (rather than my wood spare) for the remainder of the trip. My dependability vote is for carbon, and I'll buy another carbon paddle soon. TZ
TrailZen	09/20/2024 11:51AM   plmn: "I'd take them up on that offer. If you decide on something else you can sell the Wenonah for more than what you paid for it. I wouldn't pry off the gunwale with any carbon paddle. I have my doubts that one that weighs less would fare any better over time, regardless of layup. But you could ask the manufacturers what they think. Something sturdier like a Bending Branches Black Pearl may hold up better to that kind of abuse than a ZRE, but you will pay a penalty in weight. " Buying the Wenonah for 50% off, then reselling it is tempting, but I won't do that--just feels wrong to me. I refined my paddle search down to Werner and Bending Branches. I spoke with customer service and with technical folks for both companies. Both companies said their carbon shafts would tolerate the occasional gunwale pry. Both companies offer paddles in the same weight range (16-18 oz) as the Wenonah Straight Black Light, a factor that has made our recent trips more enjoyable. Both companies' paddle shafts clearly show good radial and axial fiber integrity. We have a second Wenonah (my wife/bow paddler does not do gunwale pries) that we'll keep as a spare paddle. Last night I ordered two Bending Branches Black Pearls. Now I need to work on my J-stroke so that my gunwale pries are truly "occasional"! keth0601, search "Hertz stress" online; this is the mechanism that led to the axial crack of my paddle shaft. Anything you to to minimize Hertz stress on your paddle shaft (padding gunwale or shaft to distribute stress over a greater surface area; developing a better pry option) will extend the life of your Wenonah paddle. Good luck with it. TZ
plmn	09/20/2024 06:14PM   Interesting that the straight shafts weigh the same, I didn't realize that. In bent shaft, the Wenonah is listed as 3oz lighter but felt like a bigger difference, which is why I bought it over the Black Pearl. The Black Pearl looked and felt higher quality though.
Banksiana	09/20/2024 08:02PM   Back in the day I would pry off the gunwale on occasion, sometimes often. Trained myself to stop. It's bad technique and not difficult to unlearn. I stopped when it noticeably damaged my first good paddle (a Blackburn in cedar). I've broken three high quality wooden paddles. Yes to break a carbon fiber. I own two ZRE 8oz bents, I've used my first one (the other I bought because I felt guilty when tripping with my brother) almost exclusively for about ten years. Also have two Wenonah bents I bought after a season of outfitting use. When I solo I carry a Wenonah as a spare.
Naught	09/22/2024 07:20AM   I havent done side by side testing to see which would crack first but ZRE uses prepreg carbon for their shafts, every other brand ive seen(including my GRB) use wet layups....ZRE claims this makes for a stronger shaft, might be worth asking them about. Ill also add that since getting a couple ZREs my wife and I have not once used our GRB or BBs for anything but spare paddles.
TrailZen	09/15/2024 12:31PM   When paddling in windy conditions, especially quartering winds, my J-Stroke sometimes turns into a gunwale pry. (Sloppy form, guilty as charged.) On a recent trip I sometimes thought I was hearing a crunchy sound when my paddle contacted the gunwale. When my wife found a black splinter in her hand after carrying paddles across a portage, I traced the splinter to an axial crack in my Wenonah Straight Black Light paddle. Although I tried to minimize paddle contact with the gunwale for the last few days of the trip, the crack has now grown to ~2" in length. The finishing operation done on the Wenonah shaft appears to compromise radial carbon fibers, leaving the axial fibers exposed and poorly supported, allowing axial cracking. So, opinions needed. Can the paddle be salvaged without drastically increasing its weight (cyanoacrylate adhesive?), or is this trash? TZ
Ausable	09/15/2024 01:27PM   I'm not a carbon fiber expert, but there are two things I suggest you try. First, drill a small hole at each end of the crack to blunt the crack tips as a means of disrupting the stress concentration at those points. Then wrap the shaft in that area with a lightweight fiberglass cloth (maybe 2 oz) and epoxy. Before you do anything, however, I suggest that you call or write Wenonah to see whether they might have suggestions.
andym	09/15/2024 10:10PM   Definitely talk to Wenonah and if not satisfied maybe try talking to ZRE. I would look into replacing the whole shaft.
Tomcat	09/16/2024 07:56AM   plmn: "In the bike world this is pretty common and the same principles apply. Repair kits are typically $20-40. Honestly I don't know if I would trust that kind of a repair on a bike but on a paddle it should be fine. Carbon Frame Repair " Interesting video. Thanks plmn.
plmn	09/16/2024 06:04AM   In the bike world this is pretty common and the same principles apply. Repair kits are typically $20-40. Honestly I don't know if I would trust that kind of a repair on a bike but on a paddle it should be fine. Carbon Frame Repair I agree with contacting Wenonah first, it may not be worth the hassle to do it yourself.
TrailZen	09/16/2024 09:18AM   Thanks, all, for the comments. I'm contacting Wenonah today, but suspect that since the paddle was purchased in 2019, their response will be that it's out of warranty. Right now I'm considering a lightweight repair (if the price is reasonable), while buying a new paddle and keeping the repaired Wenonah as my spare. Ausable, drilling at the ends of a crack is excellent advice, but I'm afraid that the visible exterior crack may not reveal the true ends of interior cracking along the axial fiber bundle. plmn, thanks so much for the carbon frame repair video link--I own some carbon bike parts, but had no idea that kits for such repairs were available and relatively simple. It appears the repair would be very lightweight as well, and its 16 oz weight was one of the reasons I bought this paddle. Banksiana, I may look into the replacement shaft, and agree that adding any weight to my paddle is a negative. TZ
justpaddlin	09/16/2024 08:27AM   Seems like it's worth trying to fix it since you have nothing to lose and at least it will be a learning experience. I didn't watch the bike repair video but personally I'd look for a short length of carbon fiber tubing and slut or cut it and epoxy it over the crack as a sleeve. You could also try cutting the paddle in half at the crack and inserting a wood dowel inside the shaft and epoxying in place. One good thing is that any weight you add is likely to improve the balance of the paddle.
Banksiana	09/16/2024 08:44AM   You could buy a replacement shaft. ZRE sells shafts. Check the ZRE website for information on shaft replacement. I don't know who manufactures the paddles for Wenonah or if Wenonah does it in house. The notion that adding weight to a paddle "will improve the balance" is ludicrous.
keth0601	09/24/2024 02:41PM   Banksiana: "A j-stroke with a center seat solo is futile- you have such limited leverage that it bleeds tremendous forward momentum to rudder yourself straight." That's why you heel the canoe.
plmn	09/24/2024 03:26PM   J-stroke seems to be pretty efficient for these guys: Canoe Race Of course a sprint is different than an all day paddle, but I still find their technique very impressive. I saw a video where one Olympian said it took her an entire year of practice to control the canoe effectively while paddling from just one side. I don't want to get too far off track either, I just found it interesting.
Banksiana	09/24/2024 11:04AM   Bad technique because it unnecessarily damages the paddle. Pry when you pry but don't pry on every stroke. On the other hand I consider j-stroke a bad technique (its really just an incremental rudder in which you bleed your forward progress to correct your lateral drift), so each to his or her own.
justpaddlin	09/16/2024 08:31AM   Seems like it's worth trying to fix it since you have nothing to lose and at least it will be a learning experience. I didn't watch the bike repair video but personally I'd look for a short length of carbon fiber tubing and slit or cut it and epoxy it over the crack as a sleeve. You could also try cutting the paddle in half at the crack and inserting a wood dowel inside the shaft and epoxying in place. One good thing is that any weight you add is likely to improve the balance of the paddle.
EddyTurn	09/15/2024 06:29PM   I know from experience that ZRE repairs their paddles for a small fee. May be Wenonah will do it as well?
TrailZen	09/19/2024 03:13PM   A quick update: Wenonah feels my occasional gunwale pry is the cause of the axial crack in my paddle, and does not acknowledge any weakness caused by the shaft finishing operation (which appears to compromise radial fiber integrity). They have offered a very nice 50% discount on a replacement paddle ordered from them. I've narrowed my search for a replacement to two other manufacturers whose paddle shafts clearly show uncompromised radial fibers in the layup. TZ
sns	09/19/2024 10:18PM   TZ, hope you end up happy with whatever your future paddle is... I own two (a ZRE and a GRB) and they are both awesome. The ZRE is 8.5 ounces, and it looks basically new though I must have close to 1000 miles in the Canadian Shield with it.
keth0601	09/20/2024 05:56AM   This has been an interesting thread to follow for me as someone who just recently decided to try a carbon fiber paddle from wenonah. I'm more of a traditional-style paddler and pry off of the gunnel on a regular basis so this has me wondering if I made a poor choice. I may give the shaft of my paddle a leather wrap or something to pad it against the gunnel now.
plmn	09/20/2024 06:12AM   TrailZen: "A quick update: Wenonah feels my occasional gunwale pry is the cause of the axial crack in my paddle, and does not acknowledge any weakness caused by the shaft finishing operation (which appears to compromise radial fiber integrity). They have offered a very nice 50% discount on a replacement paddle ordered from them. I've narrowed my search for a replacement to two other manufacturers whose paddle shafts clearly show uncompromised radial fibers in the layup. TZ" I'd take them up on that offer. If you decide on something else you can sell the Wenonah for more than what you paid for it. I wouldn't pry off the gunwale with any carbon paddle. I have my doubts that one that weighs less would fare any better over time, regardless of layup. But you could ask the manufacturers what they think. Something sturdier like a Bending Branches Black Pearl may hold up better to that kind of abuse than a ZRE, but you will pay a penalty in weight.
keth0601	09/24/2024 09:25AM   Banksiana: "Back in the day I would pry off the gunwale on occasion, sometimes often. Trained myself to stop. It's bad technique and not difficult to unlearn. I stopped when it noticeably damaged my first good paddle (a Blackburn in cedar). I've broken three high quality wooden paddles. Yes to break a carbon fiber. I own two ZRE 8oz bents, I've used my first one (the other I bought because I felt guilty when tripping with my brother) almost exclusively for about ten years. Also have two Wenonah bents I bought after a season of outfitting use. When I solo I carry a Wenonah as a spare." I'm curious why it would be considered bad technique if you paddle a traditional Canadian stroke or j stroke? It saves you a great deal of fatigue not having to resist the inward push from the end of the stroke with the muscles in your shoulder and it's common practice ( just watch Bill Mason's videos he even calls it out as making your steering more effective). Not to mention prying itself is a technique and forget doing jams as well without being able to pry. IMO a paddle should be able to handle prying it is a well known and used technique.
keth0601	09/24/2024 12:05PM   Banksiana: "Bad technique because it unnecessarily damages the paddle. Pry when you pry but don't pry on every stroke. On the other hand I consider j-stroke a bad technique (its really just an incremental rudder in which you bleed your forward progress to correct your lateral drift), so each to his or her own." I would say that the j-stroke is only inefficient if you're in a boat that tracks well enough for sit and switch style paddling. Try paddling a tall and wide tandem (especially empty) or a solo with lots of rocker by yourself with nothing but regular strokes and see how much fun you have. :) The j-stroke developed in a time when narrow, minimal-rocker canoes (especially solos) weren't common and if you're paddling a traditional canoe hull (especially solo) it's still efficient and relevant.
Banksiana	09/24/2024 12:51PM   keth0601: " I would say that the j-stroke is only inefficient if you're in a boat that tracks well enough for sit and switch style paddling. Try paddling a tall and wide tandem (especially empty) or a solo with lots of rocker by yourself with nothing but regular strokes and see how much fun you have. :) The j-stroke developed in a time when narrow, minimal-rocker canoes (especially solos) weren't common and if you're paddling a traditional canoe hull (especially solo) it's still efficient and relevant." I don't paddle wide tandems or non-center seated solos. Not interested in barge crafts. Even on whitewater trips I prefer a quick asymmetrical hull. A j-stroke with a center seat solo is futile- you have such limited leverage that it bleeds tremendous forward momentum to rudder yourself straight.
keth0601	09/24/2024 02:48PM   My point is that these strokes have their place. To discount a technique as 'poor' just because it doesn't fit your paddling style is to limit the number of tools a paddler has to deal with a given circumstance. Most people won't be paddling all narrow fast flatwater canoes all the time. I feel like we've taken this thread off topic so I'll abstain from further discussion unless another thread is warranted.
LaVirginienne	09/24/2024 09:44PM   TrailZen: "LaVirginienne, I'm very sorry to hear that two of your three Wenonah paddles delaminated, but am a bit confused about your mode of failure. You say that you had the blades repaired, so this was not the same shaft problem I experienced? Meanwhile, my first response from Wenonah was "Very interesting. You could send us a picture..." I've sent the same photo I included with my original post here, but have not heard back from them yet. TZ" Sorry about the late reply! The delams were all on the blade resulting from chips, I believe, on the edges. I have had no problems at all with the shafts. And yes they have been repaired perfectly (the blades).
LaVirginienne	09/24/2024 09:47PM   TrailZen: "Pinetree: " Botom line-which is more dependable-wood or carbon?" I've broken several wooden paddles. I've never broken a carbon or fiberglass paddle, and once owned a fiberglass Norse whitewater guide paddle that I think one could have felled trees or dug trenches with (and it weighed 3 pounds!). The Wenonah paddle I'm dealing with exhibited its crack on day 6 of a 10-day trip, yet I continued using it (rather than my wood spare) for the remainder of the trip. My dependability vote is for carbon, and I'll buy another carbon paddle soon. TZ" I really do love my carbon paddles and I will keep buying them. I watched a wooden paddle break mid stroke this summer and the puzzled look on the Scout’s face (I forget if he was paddling into or out of the landing where I was standing) was priceless.