|
Boundary Waters Quetico Forum :: Gear Forum :: InReach/Zoleo soon obsolete?
|
| Author | Message Text | ||
| HowardSprague |
Marten: "Hard to keep.up on this. I attended the Canoecopia presentation on safety electronics. It was pretty good and I was impressed with the capability and compact nature of the InReach Mini2 - to the point that, despite being a largely “no electronics/let me disconnect” guy I might get one at some point. Mainly just for spousal serenity if I do a solo. |
||
| sns |
First, I have had Verizon forever, and I know what my service is like in Ely and at the edges of the BWCA and the north side of Quetico (and within both in some spots). Anyone with T-Mobile able to articulate what regular cellular coverage is like for that carrier up in Canoe Country? And on T-Mobile's satellite-text feature...I've looked but cannot see anywhere if that monthly fee for the service is month-to-month or requires that you pay monthly for a full year. Anyone know more? |
||
| gravelroad |
AluminumBarge: "gravelroad: "I can activate the SOS feature on my nine year old inReach with a stick clenched between my teeth. Try doing that on a smartphone. Now try doing it on a smartphone at an ambient temperature too cold for an inauguration ceremony. Is there a reason you ignored the cold weather aspect? Been there, seen that failure, first hand. And there's this: "While the use of smartphones in extreme temperatures does not necessarily occur every day nor in all parts of the world, numerous use cases can be highlighted where the use of smartphones in cold temperatures is mandatory. Modern smartphones are designed to function in a wide range of temperatures, but when exposed to extreme cold temperatures the performance and reliability can significantly suffer. This paper presents a controlled laboratory experiment, using a clinical cold chamber to expose seven smartphone models to both medium cold (0 °C to -20 °C) and extreme cold (-30 °C) environments. The results showcase the smartphones’ sensing software’s lack of awareness of the cold environment, as well as reliability issues in the form of device crashes across the whole range of tested devices. We present a strategy for implementing monitoring application designs to both appropriately sense the effect of cold environments, as well as predicting device shutdowns in extreme cold." Exploring the effects of below-freezing temperatures on smartphone usage |
||
| plmn |
I used to think there was no way phones would replace my point and shoot cameras. How could they with such tiny lenses? But they did. There's still a market for point and shoots but it's a lot smaller than it used to be. Between this and the satellite ability of the new iPhones and Pixels, this market is going to get thinned out pretty quick. I suspect Garmin will be OK, some of these upstarts, probably not. |
||
| wxce1260 |
thegildedgopher: "Interesting, I did not receive this communication from T-Mobile. Perhaps my phone is too old. Might be--It looks like a Beta program that is being slow-rolled (I am assuming to work out any bugs). When I got the first text to ask if I wanted to be enrolled, they did ask what type of phone I had. Looks like they are trying it on newer phones first, maybe before it rolls out to all customers. There is quite a bit of info on their website. ,I already have my phone for picture taking so for me it is no big deal, but I understand those who have a zero-tolerence phone policy too-- then the inReach will probably still be needed. The phone/internet service, once activated, will probably keep some away, which I understand for those as well. |
||
| timatkn |
There was a whole thread on this already if ya need more info. T |
||
| wxce1260 |
timatkn: "Even without Starlink, Iphone 14's can now do SOS calls anywhere. So far that feature is free. So already has me wondering if I need an inReach? Yep- I remember the thread, it was what actually got me interested in this topic originally. I thought this may be a bit of a new twist. The whole SMS texting thing for weather alerts is kind of a new capability with this service. Also knowing that some folks use the messaging service on their Zoleo/InReach also changes the game. I'm not sure the iPhone (and Google Pixel) emergency program has those additional capabilities. Also this will be available on most T-Mobile phones--as it is carrier based, not Apple/Google. |
||
| keth0601 |
|
||
| mnsportsmanjr |
We don't go to enough places without cell service to justify the monthly cost, plus we have an inReach that we can just activate when needed but it's still a really cool program. I plan to use it when we are in the BWCA at the end of May and will report back how well/bad it actually worked. |
||
| gravelroad |
Now try doing it on a network not controlled by someone out to dismantle the federal government. |
||
| ducks |
keth0601: "Been waiting for this since they announced it like 3 years ago. I think I even created a thread on it here back then as well. Been holding off buying a satellite communicator since then for this very reason. I just signed up for the beta testing hope they roll it out soon. " That's exactly where I'm at. Looks like it will be included for people with the highest plans and an add on for people with lower priced plans after the beta testing. I did not get invited to beta test. I'm holding on and hoping that info comes out soon. |
||
| fadersup |
DMan5501: "Hi All... One thing to remember when considering InReach/Zoleo etc. vs an iPhone. The iPhone is not built as robust (and somewhat fragile) vs. the InReach/Zoleo etc.. Fair point but not a big lift to make phones as - or nearly as - durable. The higher end models are pretty waterproof and a specialty case could solve for the rest. As mentioned, ease of use in an actual emergency should be a primary consideration. |
||
| plander |
The mobile phone will continue to expand its utility and replace other types of electronic devices. Some technologies that the mobile phone made obsolete: Music >>> LP > 8-track > cassette > CD > iPod/Zune > streaming service to mobile phone Video >>> VHS (betamax/Laserdisc) > DVD > streaming service to mobile phone Here's a more complete listing of other obsolete technologies - most not mobile phone related obsolete technologies How all the advancement in mobile communication come about is a long story, but the fractal is perhaps the most important contributing factor, more specifically the fractal antenna. Whether its a debt of gratitude or distain, you can thank or blame a guy named Benoit Mandelbrot for a big chuck of it. Check out the wikipedia links below if you're interested in more information on this topic. Fractals Fractal antenna Benoit Mandelbrot Mandelbrot set - the math |
||
| keth0601 |
wxce1260: "ducks: "keth0601: "Been waiting for this since they announced it like 3 years ago. I think I even created a thread on it here back then as well. Been holding off buying a satellite communicator since then for this very reason. I just signed up for the beta testing hope they roll it out soon. " I'm also in the sticks in Northern Wisconsin there isn't much north of me. Also on their first responder plan so hopefully they'll hook me up as well. :) |
||
| Blatz |
wxce1260: "Looks like Ontario just cancelled it's $100 million contract with StarlinkMinnesotian: " |
||
| wxce1260 |
ducks: "keth0601: "Been waiting for this since they announced it like 3 years ago. I think I even created a thread on it here back then as well. Been holding off buying a satellite communicator since then for this very reason. I just signed up for the beta testing hope they roll it out soon. " Yeah-- I just happened to get the Beta. I just got a new phone last fall (Google Pixel) and I live in the sticks in Wisconsin with sketchy service north of me--so that may have been helpful. The email they sent, though, said they plan to have starlink expanded to all subscribers in 2025. I'm guessing they will just keep adding people as long they are sure their bandwidth can handle it. |
||
| TrailZen |
TZ |
||
| ockycamper |
We will never be without Zoleos in the BWCA just for the medical assist features which go way beyond just an SOS button. it also allows you to get progress updates in case you do have to push the SOS button, and can exchange text messages with the first responders. The weather feature is nice as is the tracking. But the Iphone does not have the capatiblity of the medical features the zoleo does. As stated in this thread, the Zoleo is waterproof. Cell phones are not. I realize the above features require use of a cell phone app. We keep the cellphones in waterproof sleeves from Overboard US |
||
| boonie |
DMan5501: "Hi All... One thing to remember when considering InReach/Zoleo etc. vs an iPhone. The iPhone is not built as robust (and somewhat fragile) vs. the InReach/Zoleo etc.. This is something that has been mentioned before and is something to consider if you are going to rely on it to save your life. Another consideration along those lines is it needs to be on you and accessible in the moment so a way of attaching it like the Inreach is something you would have to figure. |
||
| DMan5501 |
Due to this I don't know if I would rely 100% on a packed iPhone.. Stuff happens out there.. (drops, water infiltration etc,) and I see the InReach/Zoleo etc. handling these situations better.. RW |
||
| Sundem2005 |
|
||
| Marten |
|
||
| Moonpath |
|
||
| Jaywalker |
keth0601: "….You can get waterproof cellphones as well that will work on the tmobile networks. Some with better waterproof and shockproof ratings than a zoleo or in reach and some even have metal chasis and meet military standards for shock, vibration, water resistance, etc. As a bonus many of these have VERY high capacity batteries and work on multiple satellite networks as well. That’s a pretty rugged looking phone, and I’ll admit I am not familiar with impact rating systems - but my perceptions about durability are one reason I will be carrying my InReach Mini for a while longer. I do not have great data, but know that I have dropped my mini on trip several times without damage, and I know I have shattered the screen on my iPhone once and iPads twice - all from falls of less than 20 inches. I think it’s safe to assume the spider web screen drastically reduces any water resistance rating. I am very willing to change my mind if given better data. And the phone you link to might well be a superior choice for rugged situations, but I will speculate it will continue to have a minute market share compared to iPhone and Android. |
||
| Jaywalker |
My iPhone locks up after a few minutes requiring me to either enter a 6 digit code or put my thumb on the button. As an experiment, if yours does this, try to get your phone unlocked holding it with one hand behind your back. An advantage purpose-built rescue devices have is the tactile SOS a button. On my InReach Mini which I keep clipped to my belt in camp or on portages, I’m highly confident that I could without my eyes find the small flap on the side, open it, and push the SOS a button by feel so long as I can move my hands. I’m not sure but think the Zoleo, Spot, and ARC devices are similar. As a solo paddler and old Boy Scout and Ski Patrol I tends to think about worst cases. In case of eye injury, head trauma, or skeletal injury preventing me from seeing my phone, I doubt I could unlock it let alone hit the SOS button or texts 911 a message. Admittedly this is an extreme situation, perhaps like having not 1 or 2 but 3 bears walk into camp to get your food, but I do like to think through the worst case scenarios. While the phone emergency response services are certain to get better as they go along, I doubt very much this tactile button issue will ever be overcome. |
||
| plmn |
T-Mobile's new Starlink offering makes satellite phones mainstream The biggest thing of note is that they will also offer this service for Verizon and AT&T customers for $20/month. It will be interesting to see how well this works. |
||
| Marten |
|
||
| Blatz |
|
||
| plmn |
ockycamper: "My point in all this is that the cell phone. . .when factoring in the $700-$900 and the subscription costs after the free period is probably more then keeping your current phone and keeping the Zoleo. The iPhone 14 is 2.5 years old. Samsung S21 is 4 years old. Some of the supported phones are free with contract. You don't need to spend $900 on the latest and greatest. |
||
| ockycamper |
|
||
| ockycamper |
|
||
| ockycamper |
Here's the thing. . . if the only reason you think about using such a device if a once a year trip to the BWCA, neither the Zoleo or the expensive cell phone is worth the money. However, if, like me, you plan for emergencies whereever you are the Zoleo is really cheap insurance. I spend more then $35 just going out to fast food restauraunts one time with the kids. I do a lot of driving in rural areas as well as suburban and rural. Cell service comes and goes. . . even in urban areas. What if you had a breakdown or medical emergency while in one of those areas with no cell service? That's why I keep the Zoleo. This last year, after two of our camps used the Zoleo medical team assist service to treat a hand injury, we will never go to BWCA without one. One last point as others have made: If your cell phone is paid off why would you buy a $700 to $900 new Iphone to get satellite assist? I also have read that after the free period the price for just SOS message capabiity will be $20 per month. . . more for texting via satellite. My point in all this is that the cell phone. . .when factoring in the $700-$900 and the subscription costs after the free period is probably more then keeping your current phone and keeping the Zoleo. I think this is more about guys trying to come up with a way to rationalize a new Iphone 14 or 15 to their wives! (I'm buying it for you and the kids dear!) |
||
| ockycamper |
|
||
| keth0601 |
gravelroad:" and yet as northerners we use our phones on a daily basis in extremely cold conditions with little trouble. I go running multiple times a week this time of year in temps well below 0 using my phone to monitor my heart rate and have had no issues. BTW the operating range for the inreach only goes down to -4°f as well. The limitation is usually the battery and most devices use similar battery tech these days. |
||
| keth0601 |
ockycamper: "I realize the attached is from Zoleo but is a good comparison of Zoleo or Garmin features vs Iphone with satellite Iphone vs Zoleo " This doesn't necessarily apply to the tmobile sattelite service in question. The tmobile service is ultimately going to be a full data connection not just text messaging. |
||
| plmn |
ockycamper: "No phone is free. You are paying for the cost of the phone prorated over a given amount of months on top of your usage plan. You will find it is actually cheaper to buy the phone outright and just pay for your plan. So yes, the cost of the phone must be factored in." Only if you don't already have a phone that works. Or the next time you upgrade your phone you can get it for essentially no additional cost, you just need to choose a model that supports it. Samsung A14 can be had for $80. And you are technically correct, no phone is free, it's in the cost of the plan but in most cases you're paying that price with or without the phone so you may as well get the phone. I use Google Fi and haven't ever had a free option. |
||
| plmn |
Moonpath: "Very good discussion. Have not been to the BW in a few years. Hope to make it relatively soon with grandsons. I would prefer not to get into all the emergency types of communication and was hoping a cell phone might now work. I see that it might depending on the type and up to dateness of the phone Does anyone know if Verizon offers starlink plans for SMS? Thanks for all the insights." No, but T-Mobile will sell you the service on your Verizon phone for $20/month. Your phone will need to be on the supported list that is linked to above. |
||
| Moonpath |
|
||
| Minnesotian |
Is the routing, if outside of cell service, only through Starlink for you? Or are you able to access all satellite networks? Starlink has been benificial for many people, but before I ditch my InReach, I want to know if I can access more then one satellight network for communication, for multiple options redundancy. |
||
| wxce1260 |
I just got a notification from T-Mobile that my phone is now enabled for T-Mobile/Starlink texting. Basically, when there is no cell service, my phone will automatically connect to a Starlink satellite so that I have the availability to send/receive texts anywhere in the wilderness. I currently use a Zoleo for my emergency device. Others use SPOT and InReach. I use the Zoleo for "911" emergency locator and I get a daily weather forecast sent to it while in the wilderness. I am thinking that this new function may mean I no longer need the Zoleo subscription and may render these types of devices obsolete soon? T-Mobile's message to me said in addition to sending/receiving texts, I can simply type 911 into a text, hit send and it will ping my location to T-Mobile who will dispatch emergency response (just like my Zoleo). I also have a SMS notifications for weather alerts from NWS sent via text to my phone, so the additional warning notification is actually better than just a daily forecast from my Zoleo. No phone service or internet service with this, which should alleviate the "phones in the BWCA" worries, however it sounds like that service will be forthcoming sooner rather than later. Best thing is it is free (for now from T-Mobile) Interested in your thoughts about this sort of service replacing the products we currently use for safety like inReach etc? |
||
| thegildedgopher |
I still see a place for inreach etc. There are folks who truly treasure leaving that phone at home, for whatever reason. If you’re tied to a phone for work all the time maybe you don’t even want it in the same zip code as you while you’re tripping. Also the replacement cost of a phone lost or damaged in the wilderness could be significantly more than a dedicated device. |
||
| wxce1260 |
Minnesotian: " According to my email it is for the Starlink network and within the USA. According to the email, they are claiming the satellites should have full coverage across the USA. |
||
| keth0601 |
ockycamper: " You can get waterproof cellphones as well that will work on the tmobile networks. Some with better waterproof and shockproof ratings than a zoleo or in reach and some even have metal chasis and meet military standards for shock, vibration, water resistance, etc. As a bonus many of these have VERY high capacity batteries and work on multiple satellite networks as well. One such example. I've been using cellphones like these for about 5 years now and have had good luck with them. They're really great to buy for the kids too. ;) |
||
| Jaywalker |
ockycamper: "…As stated in this thread, the Zoleo is waterproof. Cell phones are not….” This is not accurate. Zoleos have and IP (water resistance) rating of 8, as do all the iPhones since the since the iPhone XS or 11. My aging iPhone has an IP rating of 7, as does my InReach Mini and my ARC PLB, which was primarily developed for maritime use. Since I doubt any of us plan to have our devices at any depth, a rating of 7 is probably more than enough if you are in the rain or bobbing around on the surface. Admittedly, I still keep my iPhone in a baggie for protection, though maybe it is not needed. I have to admit, it sort of bends my mind to think that a current phone is that water resistant - I remember people dropping them in the sink and sticking them in rice to dry them out before they were ruined. Ocky’s point about the medical advice from Zoleo is certainly valid. I’ve heard anecdotal tales of this type of advice from Garmin on occasion , but it’s not promoted as a standard feature - at least so far. If other services don’t follow this lead, they are missing out. In service industries advantages like this are usually not long-standing. |
||
| keth0601 |
Jaywalker: "keth0601: "….You can get waterproof cellphones as well that will work on the tmobile networks. Some with better waterproof and shockproof ratings than a zoleo or in reach and some even have metal chasis and meet military standards for shock, vibration, water resistance, etc. As a bonus many of these have VERY high capacity batteries and work on multiple satellite networks as well. You're not wrong about the screens being a weak point. I haven't broken one on these phones yet (though I've broken plenty of screen protectors on them), but I don't think it would take much to break one under the right conditions. I doubt drop tests for shockproof ratings are done with the device landing on the screen. |
||
| Argo |
I, for one, would not substitute my inReach for my phone as it serves multiple purposes beyond mere communication and, as has been mentioned, is far more robustly built. However, I don't see how the additional features of the satellite communicators cannot eventually be adopted but the mobile phone companies and operators. And downsides of using your phone such as fragility, difficulties in reading in sunlight, lack of waterproofness plus difficulty in operating in the rain, battery drain etc... can be balanced by many against the additional costs -financial and otherwise - of carrying a sat-commuicator. There's definately a new gal at the dance as this develops. |
||
| tumblehome |
I trust it way more than a cell phone. The day is coming when the cell phone will replace my Zoleo but that is still several or more years away. My Zoleo works 100% of the time when I use it. Tom |
||
| plmn |
Marten: "Finally a posted cost for this. T-Mobile says it will be $15 a month. I pay Inreach $11.95 including taxes and fees." Maybe you are in a grandfathered plan, because right now Garmin is showing $15/month plus a $40 activation fee for the cheapest "Essential" plan. No mention, yet, of activation fees from T-Mobile. You can get it for $10/month if you enroll by March 1, and it will be included at no cost with their top plan. Zoleo is $20/month plus $20 activation. T-Mobile Starlink Garmin inReach Zoleo |
||
| ockycamper |
Or do they just send an SOS |
||
| plmn |
ockycamper: "The thing is that when the cell phones are on satellite only, will they be able to download maps, weather, have texting and communicate with medical traige staff? With T-Mobile they'll have full voice and data capability. iPhone and Pixel are more limited, for now, but are also free. |
||
| boonie |
plmn: "Marten: "Finally a posted cost for this. T-Mobile says it will be $15 a month. I pay Inreach $11.95 including taxes and fees." |
||
| keth0601 |
|
||
| Marten |
Garmin In reach changed plans last fall. I still pay $11.95 until my plan year is up. With the increase to $15 I go from 10 texts a month to 50. After I am bumped to the $15 Essential plan I can then opt for a new plan type called "Enabled." It is $8 and keeps my device active for SOS but I pay $.50 for each text and $.10 for preset texts sent. I can bump back up for tripping months and have 50 texts instead of 10. I use my Inreach 5 months out of the year so.may not bother going back and forth. |
||
| plmn |
boonie: They don't say. |
||
| AluminumBarge |
|
||
| AluminumBarge |
gravelroad: "I can activate the SOS feature on my nine year old inReach with a stick clenched between my teeth. Try doing that on a smartphone. Now try doing it on a smartphone at an ambient temperature too cold for an inauguration ceremony. I don’t need a stick clenched between my teeth to use my iPhone, I can use my nose, if I have to. Try that with your inreach. Although it’s best just to use your fingers in both cases. |
||
| wxce1260 |
keth0601: "Sounds like it will be free for first responders as well which is great. As a first responder in a remote area I can say that will certainly be useful." This is a good move by them. Also, T-Mobile email yesterday said they will begin charging in July (free now for beta). Also they plan on having the full phone/internet capabilities by the end of the year. Full capabilities is not a thing needed for wilderness travel, but helpful in some parts of where I live for first responders who will benefit from the additional capabilities in areas where there is no coverage. |
||
| ducks |
I also like the idea of having the sos button and check in button to stand alone on the Zoleo in case something happens to the phone. My 3 trips this year will be one with my 6 year old, one with my 17 year old, and one solo. |