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06/06/2022 07:24AM |
portagepuker: "
I Just bought this canoe will be picking up tomorrow. After reading as much as possible and creating an account for the first time I wanted to post a photo of my serial number plate.
I believe what I may have bought is a first generate odyssey? the letters:
WWII - ODY. - appear in the upper right corner of the tag and the serial number starts with JW. I see it was produced in 83 but can anyone tell me what the other numbers mean?
This will be my first wenonah and I can't wait to finally ditch the unbreakable Coleman ram X tank! I'm and ADK paddler born and raised and hope to do a lot more trips with this boat.
Thanks for all of the amazing history so far and I look forward to hearing more if anyone has any."
That's what it looks like, Portage. Based on the year of manufacture and serial number prefix you have a first generation Odyessy/"new" Whitewater II.
Congratulations! Great canoe and wonderful piece of Wenonah history.
Brian
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03/05/2013 08:14AM |
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10/19/2020 11:13AM |
Brian here from Wenonah canoe. The other day Mike C handed me a few newsletters from the early '80s and I went down a canoe-nerd rabbit hole that landed me here. Thought I would refresh this thread to share what I've learned.
Bottom line is both Odyssey and Minnesota II trace their lineage to the original Gene Jensen Whitewater II design from 1977.
There are quite a few branches in the family tree.
First came the Whitewater II. This was a very fast downriver racing design. A USCA bottom with deeper sides.
The Whitewater II had a sharp forefoot that was easily damaged in downriver racing and was a little wet hitting big waves, so Gene Jensen came out with a new version with a flatter bottom, strongly flared bow and blunter entry for strength: the Whitewater X. Serial number prefix WX. This design was introduced in 1980.
[I got a good look at a Whitewater X last winter when I worked at Savannah Canoe and Kayak. They had an ancient WWX that we put new gunwales on. ]
The Whitewater X was eventually redesigned as the Whitewater XX, a more extreme downriver design.
The original Whitewater II turned out to be a good tripping boat. In 1982 it was redesigned with tripping in mind. At the time the boat was being called the New Whitewater II.
Here's where things get a little fuzzy.
It appears that the serial number prefix of the original Whitewater II was JMW.
Checking the serial number log it appears that there was a version of the Odyssey that shares the serial number prefix of a later version of the Whitewater II (JW). My best guess is that this boat is the "New" Whitewater II and the first-generation Odyssey. Records show it was produced up until 1987.
The newer version of the Odyssey has the serial number prefix OD and appears to be a derivative of the Whitewater X design, sharing the flared bow and asymmetric hull of that design but with a sharper entry.
The Minnesota II (WW) is a derivative of the original Whitewater II and the first version of the Odyssey/"New" Whitewater II, taking a branch in the family tree in a different direction. The Minnesota II has been in production since 1987.
I spoke with Mike C about this today and he said that there were a lot of small changes that were being made to designs around that time.
I may learn more details if I can find a few more newsletters, but the general lineage seems to go:
Whitewater II>Whitewater X>New Odyssey
Whitewater II>New Whitewater II (original Odyssey)>Minnesota II
You can find data sheets on the Whitewater X, Whitewater XX and Odyssey on the retired models page of the Wenonah website.
Brian
Here's an excerpt from the 1982 dealer newsletter introducing the new version of the Whitewater II.
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10/19/2020 05:31PM |
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03/01/2013 05:36PM |
Seneca slower, little more rocker perhaps easier to turn and pretty wide for the center paddler.
The former often shows up in Adirondack races.
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03/01/2013 07:26PM |
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03/01/2013 07:43PM |
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11/23/2020 07:40AM |
The mystery continues.
Your boat is a blunt nose Odyssey from 1985. Based on the serial number you shared with me it has the earlier serial number designation of JW that I had associated with the "new" WWII.
So blunt nose Odysseys were being built in the mid-80s.
Hans Solo's boat mentioned in the thread above is a 1988 Odyssey with the sharper nose. I had guessed this was an older version of the boat (Essentially a New WWII). Given what he said about his discussion with the factory when he picked it up I now wonder if it's the "new" Odyssey. Would love to know if it has the OD designation in the serial number, which would hint at this.
In this thread, Yellow Canoe discusses his 1991 Odyssey which has the blunt nose. Blunt nose in the 90's. Is that an Odyssey from the old mold?
https://bwca.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=forum.thread&threadId=866230&forumID=15&confID=1
And I've talked with someone in house here who built an Odyssey a few years back and recalled it had a sharper nose.
Bottom line is that it looks like we have had several molds for the Odyssey through the years and it's most likely that both blunt and sharp nose styles of the boat were being produced at the same time depending on paddler preference.
Rumor has it there is still an Odyssey mold kicking around here somewhere, likely dusty and deteriorated. If that mold exists it will be the last one and if I ever run across it I'll know whether the final production version of the boat had the sharper or blunter bow.
Thanks everyone for this fun thread.
Brian from Wenonah
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01/20/2021 02:04PM |
BrianDay: "Rumor has it there is still an Odyssey mold kicking around here somewhere, likely dusty and deteriorated. If that mold exists it will be the last one and if I ever run across it I'll know whether the final production version of the boat had the sharper or blunter bow."
Rumor confirmed! After some digging around at the factory I've found the last, functional Odyssey mold. It's for the sharp nose version.
We'll keep this mold safe...
Brian
Happy Paddling,
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10/20/2020 07:57AM |
Some of these boats are real mysteries, even the ones that Wenonah produced. One example is the Jensen II. I have a friend with one and we made a handful of them back in the late 90's to early 2000's. Very cool variant on the Jensen 18 with a bit more depth and flare and a slightly rounder bottom (if memory serves).
B
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11/13/2020 02:07PM |
I suspect there was some overlap between versions of the Odyssey. Potentially both molds in use at the same time in the mid-1980's. Our serial number records don't show a start year for the newer version.
Thanks!
Brian from Wenonah
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10/20/2020 09:49AM |
HansSolo: "
BTW, after seeing no one for three days in Quetico last August, I ran into this couple on Cutty Creek. They were on a thirty-two day trip and were using this Minnesota III with the seat removed. (They had previously had the third seat for the taking her father on "Quetico-Superior" trips, until his passing.) With the third seat removed, they now use it as a their big hauler.
Hans Solo
"
Wow! That's a lot of stuff.
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10/20/2020 10:51AM |
BrianDay: "I don't know anything about the WWIII. Talking to Mike about this yesterday he mentioned that Gene was a prolific designer and that is where a lot of the variations in boats came into play. Not surprised that there was a WWIII after the II, X and XX.
Some of these boats are real mysteries, even the ones that Wenonah produced. One example is the Jensen II. I have a friend with one and we made a handful of them back in the late 90's to early 2000's. Very cool variant on the Jensen 18 with a bit more depth and flare and a slightly rounder bottom (if memory serves). B"
Thanks Brian. That Jensen II sounds nice. Re: Wenonah's lost boats, I have a 1983 16 WWC1 (with the bull nose) that they stretched to 16'6" and renamed the C1W the next year. That design must have been out for only a couple of years.
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10/20/2020 11:03AM |
Brian
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10/20/2020 12:32PM |
BrianDay: "Very cool. According to the serial number speadsheet, the C-1 WW (16) was produced from 1978-1985. Another Gene Jensen design.Brian"
They changed the design to the blunt nose in 1982 or so. My daughter has a 1978 version that had the fine entry without the gunnel tuck the next version had.
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10/20/2020 12:37PM |
Like Mike said, lots of little tweaks back then...
Looks like that redesign was in 1981. Here's a page from that spring's brochure. "Much like our new Whitewater X, it is dryer and more stable in whitewater. And it has the same type of bow as the Whitewater X."
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10/20/2020 02:34PM |
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03/01/2013 05:25PM |
It's really for you to decide, but if it were me, it's the Minnesota III all the way!
If you could better define your intended usage "tmoneyfsu", it would be more helpful for making suggestions. At this point, all we can do is rely on our own intended usage, or our personal bias for the particular canoe characteristics we favor.
If you're often taking young children on canoe trips, or tripping with a third adult the majority of the time, and you do a lot of fishing, then the Seneca would be a better fit, because of the additional initial stability. Although, you'll sacrifice some speed with the Seneca over the Minnesota III.
Personally, I like a canoe that's a bit more "lively". I value secondary stability more than initial stability, and I like to paddle. Also, I don't fish much, so having a canoe as a stable platform doesn't figure into my equation, but for you, it might.
When I do paddle a tandem tripping boat, I take my Wenonah Odyssey, and I love it! My Odyssey is actually closer to the Minnesota II in design and performance. (I purchased mine after Jensen re-designed the Odyssey and the "bull nose", (i.e., flared bow), was removed. The "flared bow" was an earlier characteristic of the Odyssey.)
On many BWCAW trips, or river trips when our kids were younger, "Mrs. Solo" and I would drop a sling seat in the Odyssey for one of our kids. There were also times that we'd put Anthony, our youngest and smallest, in the middle, then one of our daughters took the bow, I took the stern, and "Mrs. Solo" paddled one of our solos. I still found the Odyssey to be quite stable and safe for tripping with our kids.
So again, a few more details on your intended usage would be helpful. :-)
(Ultimately, test paddling each boat, with a simulated load that would approximate your most typical paddling situation, is always beneficial.)
Hans Solo
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03/01/2013 08:21PM |
quote ultralight: "I love the MN III. It is fast and fun to paddle. I've rented most of them for various group trips and it is my favorite 3 man boat. I've never felt uncomfortable in it, but then again I like the MN II. (It is the tripping boat I own) I have also used it as a tandem and it will really fly if you know how to paddle it."
Right on "ultralight"!
BTW, after seeing no one for three days in Quetico last August, I ran into this couple on Cutty Creek. They were on a thirty-two day trip and were using this Minnesota III with the seat removed. (They had previously had the third seat for the taking her father on "Quetico-Superior" trips, until his passing.) With the third seat removed, they now use it as a their big hauler.
Hans Solo
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03/01/2013 09:30PM |
quote yellowcanoe: "quote HansSolo:
When I do paddle a tandem tripping boat, I take my Wenonah Odyssey, and I love it! My Odyssey is actually closer to the Minnesota II in design and performance. (I purchased mine after Jensen re-designed the Odyssey and the "bull nose", (i.e., flared bow), was removed. The "flared bow" was an earlier characteristic of the Odyssey.)
when was that change made? Mine is a 1991 and flared is the bow. In my case the Jimmy Durante nose is a good thing. We use it on Lake Superior."
This will take some explaining, but I have a 1988, Kevlar Cross-Rib Odyssey. My Odyssey is somewhat of an "oddity", no pun intended.
I ordered my Odyssey in the in 1988, during the time I worked for "Rutabaga". After the canoe was completed, I did a "boat run" to Wenonah to pick-up stock boats for the store, and my new "Odyssey".
Mark Walters, (who was the Wenonah's Production Manager at the time), assisted me with loading up my new "Odyssey" and the other canoes. When I first saw my new boat, I asked Mark what happened to the "bull nose". Mark explained they asked Gene Jensen to take some of the flare out of the bow. But, Mark went on to say that he and Mike Chichanowski felt Gene has slimmed the bow too much.
To be honest, I liked the change, because my wife paddles bow, and she is only 5' 3". For years, I tried to convince her that there's no "Captain" when it comes to canoes, and that I should be in the bow. (Much like the arrangement in USCA "Mixed" Marathon C-2's.) But she still preferred to paddle bow, despite my declaration.
By removing the Odyssey's "bull nose", the gunnels at the bow paddling station were narrowed, thereby making her reach easier. This by the way, was also Wenonah's motivation for narrowing the bow. (The term "bull nose", is what the Rutabaga Staff and I called it at the time. I'm not sure of the origin of that term though.)
If you recall, in the mid to late 80's, Wenonah's cataloged Whitewater/Tripping Canoes featured the "Odyssey", "Whitewater X", "Whitewater XX", which were all 18' 6". That section also included the "Jensen C1W" solo canoe. There was no "Minnesota II" at that time. But, they did introduce the "Itasca" in the late 80's though, before I left the store.
The "Whitewater XX" was really an ACA downriver racer, and I can't remember ever selling, or ordering a "XX" for anyone, although we sold a few "Whitewater X's" during that time. (Actually, the predecessor to the "Odyssey" was the "Whitewater II", also an ACA down river racer.)
A few years after I took delivery of my "Odyssey" in 1988, and my eventual departure from "Rutabaga" in 1990 to change careers, I did not keep up on the canoe and kayak industry, as I once did. But from what I recall at the time, and from what I was told, here's what eventually happened.
Wenonah started making more drastic changes to their "cataloged" canoes and expanding their canoe line, both tandem and solo, starting in the early 90's. It was my understanding that Wenonah put the "bull nose" back into the "Odyssey", shortly after my "Odyssey" was manufactured. Wenonah "pulled" the "Whitewater X" and the "Whitewater XX" from the catalog by 1989, and "introduced" the "Itasca". Sometime later in the early 90's, they introduced the "Minnesota II".
Wenonah later "pulled" the "Jensen C1W" from the Whitewater/Tripping section and the catalog, as they did with the "X" boats in 1989. In the later 90's, Wenonah introduced the "Encounter", as the "Tripping Solo", and then eventually the "Voyager" in the early 2000's.
I know what you're saying "yellowcanoe" about "the nose". It's a feature I like in the "C1W" and the "Encounter", because it tends to lift the bow in "big water" and deflect water and waves better than a sharper bow entry line. Still, my "Odyssey" has served me well and has handled some pretty hairy conditions.
Nevertheless, my "Odyssey" is more of a "Minnesota II", with an "Odyssey" label, although it's really not either, especially above the waterline. Still, I love its speed and seaworthiness, especially with a load. I also like the fact my "Odyssey" is somewhat of a "freak". Below the waterline, it's the same old "Odyssey", but with a sharper bow entry line, per Mark Walters.
You might want to ask some of your canoe design buddies what they know about the "Odyssey's" design changes during the late 80's. I'd be interested to know what they know about it. My guess is, Wenonah went back to producing the "Odyssey" with the original mold, "bull nose" and all.
I never really questioned exactly what happened with the design differences, because I like my "Odyssey" the way it is. I may question Mike Chichanowski at "Canoecopia" next week to get the whole story though, now that the subject has come up.
Some of the pictures at the bottom will show other angles of my "Odyssey" and the sharper bow entry line.
Hans Solo
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03/02/2013 10:00AM |
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03/02/2013 01:27PM |
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03/02/2013 03:18PM |
quote Banksiana: "It is my understanding that the MNII is basically a renamed Whitewater II. Learned this talking with Steve Piragis and someone from wenonah."
That's more or less my understanding as well. But, it did get somewhat misconstrued during the time Wenonah was "tweaking" their canoes, especially with the "Odyssey" re-design.
I had also heard rumors that Wenonah "tweaked" the "Whitewater II" mold slightly, before they re-introduced it as the "Minnesota II". What, if any changes were actually made, I can't say for sure.
Hans Solo
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03/04/2013 10:07AM |
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01/21/2021 08:53AM |
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10/21/2020 02:17PM |
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06/08/2022 05:27AM |
This thing belongs in a museum?!
Here’s two photos of it in my truck during my 11 hour round trip pick up last weekend. ZERO scratches anywhere.
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06/04/2022 06:26AM |
I Just bought this canoe will be picking up tomorrow. After reading as much as possible and creating an account for the first time I wanted to post a photo of my serial number plate.
I believe what I may have bought is a first generate odyssey? the letters:
WWII - ODY. - appear in the upper right corner of the tag and the serial number starts with JW. I see it was produced in 83 but can anyone tell me what the other numbers mean?
This will be my first wenonah and I can't wait to finally ditch the unbreakable Coleman ram X tank! I'm and ADK paddler born and raised and hope to do a lot more trips with this boat.
Thanks for all of the amazing history so far and I look forward to hearing more if anyone has any.
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06/09/2022 07:17AM |
portagepuker: "Wow, thank you Brian for commenting on such an old blog. I am VERY excited to be able to own this canoe but given its amazing condition also find myself unsure if I should be the one responsible for it!
This thing belongs in a museum?!
Here’s two photos of it in my truck during my 11 hour round trip pick up last weekend. ZERO scratches anywhere.
Wow. That canoe must have been stored in someone's barn and never paddled. It looks great! Enjoy it.
Brian
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03/05/2013 01:12PM |
quote Banksiana: "I put in a call to Wenonah yesterday to inquire about the MNII, WWII connection. The rep I talked to was fairly certain they were the same boat, she noted that the serial number of the MNII begins with the same sequence used to begin the WWII model (WW#####). She promised to confirm and get back to me, but I have not heard since."
I never thought this thread would turn into a research project, but this is actually getting interesting.
If you don't hear from Wenonah by week's end "Banksiana", I'll "grill" the folks at the Wenonah booth this weekend during "Canoecopia". If Mike Cichanowski, (who is traditionally always in attendance at "Canoecopia"), can't define the differences, then I'm not sure who can.
Hans Solo
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03/05/2013 10:29PM |
quote HansSolo: "quote Banksiana: "I put in a call to Wenonah yesterday to inquire about the MNII, WWII connection. The rep I talked to was fairly certain they were the same boat, she noted that the serial number of the MNII begins with the same sequence used to begin the WWII model (WW#####). She promised to confirm and get back to me, but I have not heard since."
I never thought this thread would turn into a research project, but this is actually getting interesting.
If you don't hear from Wenonah by week's end "Banksiana", I'll "grill" the folks at the Wenonah booth this weekend during "Canoecopia". If Mike Cichanowski, (who is traditionally always in attendance at "Canoecopia"), can't define the differences, then I'm not sure who can.
Hans Solo"
Mike was who she was going to check with.
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03/01/2013 05:08PM |
Both Wenonahs.
The Seneca vs. the MInnesota III.
I really want the third seat. The length and weight are almost identical, but the width is very different with the MN III being 5" narrower. Just looking for some insight.
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03/01/2013 07:04PM |
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03/01/2013 07:27PM |
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03/01/2013 05:25PM |
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03/01/2013 08:45PM |
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03/01/2013 09:04PM |
quote HansSolo: When I do paddle a tandem tripping boat, I take my Wenonah Odyssey, and I love it! My Odyssey is actually closer to the Minnesota II in design and performance. (I purchased mine after Jensen re-designed the Odyssey and the "bull nose", (i.e., flared bow), was removed. The "flared bow" was an earlier characteristic of the Odyssey.)
when was that change made? Mine is a 1991 and flared is the bow. In my case the Jimmy Durante nose is a good thing. We use it on Lake Superior.
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03/01/2013 11:56PM |
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03/02/2013 12:33AM |
quote jwartman59: "
the wenonah ww2 back in it glory days. this was one seriously fast canoe. is this the canoe you mentioned as the wenonah xx?
Nice pic!
The "Whitewater II" was the predecessor to the "Odyssey". The "Whitewater X", and the "Whitewater XX" were different boats. Details from the Wenonah 1988 Catalog below.
Hans Solo
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03/01/2013 09:32PM |
quote tmoneyfsu: "Thanks for the info so far. I would be using for only bwca tripping canoe. Covering lots of water with moderate loads of gear. Probably planing on putting a child in the middle in a few years, and doing a significant amount of fishing from it. I would value being comfortable over capacity. And value efficiency over maneuverability. And I would value final stability over initial . Thanks guys. "
Kids and fishing? Seneca
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11/20/2020 06:02PM |
Yes my Odyssey has the blunt nose. My wife did like the Jensen 18 because of the easier reach. But the Odyssey reach was way better than our Grumman canoes. I used it this summer paddling with one of my daughter’s friends with no complaints.