Boundary Waters Quetico Forum :: Trip Planning Forum :: Campsite selection etiquette
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mgraber |
thegildedgopher: "MikeinMpls: "mgraber: "One of the campsite etiquette questions raised here is if it is OK to use a campsite for lunch or rest stops. According to the FS that would be a no. It clearly states in the LNT principles, "Do not take a campsite for day use". A quick phone call confirmed their stance on this, it is not OK to occupy a campsite that you have no intention of staying at. They said a restroom break would be OK, but not stopping for lunch. We have done this in the past, but have stopped. I have no idea if it would actually be enforced." I clearly stated that it was found in the "Principles" section in my post, and that I called about it, and what their answer was. I'm not sure where you thought I was confused. I was just passing info along, but yeah, lets just ignore recommended principles as long as they are not enforceable rules. smh |
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thegildedgopher |
Speckled: "What page of the PDF does it talk about using a campsite for day use? I'd like to read it. I think that's a good point Speckled. Makes a lot of sense. It's on page 4, LNT Principles, under the heading "Be Considerate of Others." The actual rules are on page 5 and don't include anything about this. |
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thegildedgopher |
EddyTurn: "mgraber: "I was just passing info along, but yeah, lets just ignore recommended principles as long as they are not enforceable rules. smh" Or unless you skip lead fishing tackle in the BWCA, which is also on that page of LNT principles. Hogging a site you won't camp at all day is not good form, but it is within the rules. And if hanging out all day is within the rules, then stopping an hour for lunch or to do some shore fishing is not something I'm going to sweat. |
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Speckled |
thegildedgopher: "Speckled: "I've read whatever rules I could find and here's how I think it works. No worries - correct, my interpretations and we're saying the same thing on the day use permit, perhaps I just didn't word it clearly. |
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billconner |
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egknuti |
mgraber: "One of the campsite etiquette questions raised here is if it is OK to use a campsite for lunch or rest stops. According to the FS that would be a no. It clearly states in the LNT principles, "Do not take a campsite for day use". A quick phone call confirmed their stance on this, it is not OK to occupy a campsite that you have no intention of staying at. They said a restroom break would be OK, but not stopping for lunch. We have done this in the past, but have stopped. I have no idea if it would actually be enforced." I’m curious what “day use” means. Does stopping for a 20 minute lunch qualify as “day use?” Staying at a site to fish or to swim all day seems like “day use” to me. The LNT also states to take breaks away from portages and other visitors. I definitely don’t take breaks on portages, unless I know I’m the only one around. I think common sense should prevail here. Be aware, if you’re on a busy lake that other groups may be searching for a site. On the hand, if you’re the only group on a lake, I don’t see a problem stopping for lunch. Also, there are many lakes where the only safe areas to pull ashore are campsites. |
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gravelroad |
My new policy: Come on over and ask. And if I see you looking hopefully from a discrete distance, I’m probably going to breach the stillness and invite you to occupy the site after I’ve loaded my boat. |
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EddyTurn |
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Savage Voyageur |
EddyTurn: " If someone comes to my site - or the doors of my suburban house - and asks me a polite question - why would it bother me? Being on a wilderness trip doesn't makes me neither less nor more civilized than usual. If I want a place totally sans human interaction I won't go to a park." Some people get super annoyed by Anyone talking to them. More than one time I’ve had people not respond to me when I pass them at a portage trail. I simply say good morning or hi and get absolutely nothing back. It must take a lot of effort for some people to be civil to others. Many groups have come up to our campsites over the years wondering if we are leaving or not. We always just tell them our plans and everyone moves on with their trip. Maybe it has something to do with people that live in a big city around millions of others and people who live in the country. |
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Speckled |
Permit Type - Overnight paddle Lunch at a campsite while on a travel day (entry, exit or moving sites): This is ok and is allowed by the rules. You are allowed to occupy a site with an OP permit. Lunch at a campsite while on a day trip from your already established campsites: Not allowed, as you are occupying two sites with a single permit. Permit Type - Day Use Lunch or any other occupying of a site - not allowed. If you were allowed to occupy a site on a day use permit you would in theory be able to enter a day early from your OP permit. Occupying he site a day in advance of your OP permit by using the day permit. |
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thegildedgopher |
Speckled: "I've read whatever rules I could find and here's how I think it works. With all due respect, these are merely your own interpretations and I think you're inferring way too much. I'll stick with just following the basic clear rules as written and also being courteous to everyone I meet. On your last point -- that's false. If you enter Monday on a day permit, you must exit the wilderness, bringing all gear with you, and re-enter on Tuesday with an overnight entry permit. You can't "enter" the wilderness if you're already in the wilderness. |
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timatkn |
Beesun300: "Interested in experience BWCA'ers insight. Totally appropriate to ask...in fact most if they see you coming will ask “are you looking for a site...we are leaving.” That’s what I would do. Now if you see gear and no people and land...then you are an a hole :) I’ve read stories of people waking people up from a nap or in the AM to ask...that is one rude a-hole move. T |
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Speckled |
I wonder the the FS employee you spoke with could be assuming you were already camped at another site and then stopped while out day tripping or fishing, thus occupying two sites with a single permit? Which I agree is against the rules, but stopping along the way on a long travel day for lunch. As far as I can tell, that's permitted. |
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ockycamper |
To me, asking if someone is leaving their site that day puts an implied pressure on them. . .similar to having to get out of a motel room before cut off time. There are lots of sites on most lakes. . .whey not just move on and let those at the site enjoy theirs? |
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EddyTurn |
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Cc26 |
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Northwoodsman |
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mschi772 |
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Beesun300 |
When looking for a campsite and you approach your desired location, you may see people milling around and not be sure if they are staying or leaving. Is it appropriate to pull up close and ask? Many times you can see them packing and you are sure they are leaving. Others, you can see them heading out or they are already out for the day and clearly are staying. I would not care if someone asked me and then moved on....but I don't want to break some unwritten rule of etiquette. Thoughts? |
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Speckled |
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egknuti |
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jhb8426 |
mschi772: "What does it say about our community that people have to question whether or not a polite inquiry would be inappropriate?" ++1 |
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thegildedgopher |
jhb8426: "mschi772: "What does it say about our community that people have to question whether or not a polite inquiry would be inappropriate?" I think it says more about humanity in general in the year 2021. Our little slice of humanity are probably on the friendly/polite part of the spectrum when it boils down to it. |
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schweady |
I just try not to get too close or steam right in. A simple "You stayin' tonight?" will do it. Most people can easily tell when you're looking for a site and know the open/taken percentages situation and might initiate the conversation themselves. In a polite society, you'll get one of: "You got it. Good luck out there." "No, we're just about to leave, but can you give us some space/time?" "Yeah, we're just going off on a day trip/going fishing." "C'mon up. Let me show you where we nailed the walleye." I remember being on Shell and all sites were taken. We checked the site on Little Shell, too. Back on Shell, we floated across from one of our top pick sites, and the party gave a whistle and hollered, "We're just having lunch! Need this site?!" I thought a bit about their breach of etiquette, but then, quickly forgave them. |
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thegildedgopher |
We use sites for shore lunch all the time. I would also alert any site-seekers that this one is available. |
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Northwoodsman |
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boonie |
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MikeinMpls |
My wife and I don't move campsites as much as we used to, and when we do it's in the afternoon, so campsite occupancy or vacancy is pretty obvious. But I do this with some regularity: when putting in at an EP, I often strike up friendly conversation with another party putting in. Sometimes they initiate the conversation, sometimes I do. If the conversation is pleasant and mutual, I ask where they are intend on camping that first night. That gives me some indication, albeit small, if I might be "competing" for a site. Or if it's a big and loud group, where I might NOT want to stay. Mike |
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straighthairedcurly |
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EddyTurn |
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KarlBAndersen1 |
EddyTurn: " If someone comes to my site - or the doors of my suburban house - and asks me a polite question - why would it bother me? Being on a wilderness trip doesn't makes me neither less nor more civilized than usual. If I want a place totally sans human interaction I won't go to a park." ^^^The best answer here. |
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egknuti |
EddyTurn: " If someone comes to my site - or the doors of my suburban house - and asks me a polite question - why would it bother me? Being on a wilderness trip doesn't makes me neither less nor more civilized than usual. If I want a place totally sans human interaction I won't go to a park."Some of us don’t live in a suburban home and would be surprised or cautious if somebody came to our door to ask a polite question. |
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Jaywalker |
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cyclones30 |
We did get called over by a group on Fourtown one year. They were packing up and we were fishing and weren't really sure if we were going to stay on that lake or head all the way out to the EP. They said they were leaving so we decided to dump our stuff and stay another night. We had at least 6 groups ask us if we were staying....so the busier the lake the more it happens I'm sure. |
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x2jmorris |
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bottomtothetap |
schweady: "I think that egknuti has nailed it. Sure, there will be those miffed that their wilderness experience was ruined by hearing your voice, but I think they are in the minority. Just curious: What was their breach of etiquette? I suppose it would have been better had they not had to communicate with you with a whistle and a holler. This past summer as we paddled past a site on Sawbill, I noticed a couple sitting there out on the lakeside rocks. As we went by, I said good morning and asked if they were camped there. They replied that they were not, were only stopped for a cup of coffee and would be leaving in a few minutes. They said if we were looking for a site, it was a good one and we should take it when they were gone. We were actually thinking about moving further up the lake but with the other traffic we'd seen, I thought taking them up on their suggestion was a good idea. We caught up to the rest of our party, revised our plan and returned to this site just as this couple was leaving. We liked this site enough that we stayed for three nights and this all happened from a little friendliness and brief conversation. I'd say if the circumstances feel comfortable to you, don't be afraid to politely ask. |
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scotttimm |
When passing paddlers/portagers exiting an area I am heading into, if they seem friendly/chatty, I also ask, "Could I bother you to ask which site you just left to save us some time?" This got us our preferred site on LLC last year. And the guys said proudly, "best site in the area, get up there and snag it!". Having kids in tow maybe helps folks have mercy on us. Here's my "chatting can be good" story - a few years ago discovered we had forgotten our fishing net at the base of a falls, near a portage, and after a full day of fishing we were grudgingly paddling back to get it. Did not want to do those two portages twice more. Three canoes were coming our way, and the stern paddler had that look...like he wanted to chat but was unsure. "How full is it up here?" "Totally full, but pull up and I'll show you a great site we passed earlier that is empty, save you some time." "Thanks, where are you guys going?" "We left our fishing net at the waterfall, only one we have, not looking forward to those portages again." They all looked at each other in silence. One guy reached underneath his seat. "THIS fishing net?" |
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mgraber |
thegildedgopher: "schweady: "bottomtothetap: "Just curious: What was their breach of etiquette?... Not according to the FS. See my comment above. From the LNT rules,"Do not take campsite for day use". |
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schwartyman |
Last year I had to leave my comfort zone regarding this. After a few hours traveling to a destination lake with 3 sites on it, I saw all 3 sites were occupied. This was a short 4 days trip and camping elsewhere meant portaging 2 lakes over which i was trying to avoid. At one of the sites I saw no gear, an empty canoe, and a father/son fishing from shore. I felt this was appropriate to ask if they were staying there. They said they were not, just having lunch and fishing. I said take your time, enjoy yourself and asked if we may occupy the site when they are finished? They said of course not a problem. My group and I ate lunch in the canoes on the lake, then fished for 30 minutes, the father/son left, and we swooped in and set up. I have not and likely will not ask anyone with tarps/tents set up at a site how long they will be there, unless in an emergency. To me, it depends on the situation, and no matter what always be polite and respectful :) |
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Speckled |
For me it would also depend on the circumstances...meaning if it's super busy and there's a strong chance all the sites are taken, then I'd get it and be totally understanding, but if they just happen to want that site, a little rude in my opinion. Chatting while out and about and you happen to cross paths either on the portage, or in a narrows section of a lake or river - no problem. |
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thegildedgopher |
schweady: "bottomtothetap: "Just curious: What was their breach of etiquette?... While I would never set up a tarp, we definitely cook hot meals at campsites. Day-trippers have every right to be in the BWCA, same as campers. If somebody wishes, they can get a day permit and set up all day on a campsite to relax, fish, eat, take a nap in the shade, whatever. Different folks have different ideas and goals and reasons for going to the BWCA. As long as LNT is followed and courtesy is extended, all those different uses can coexist peacefully. |
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mgraber |
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scotttimm |
Speckled: "If I were sitting at camp relaxing and someone paddled up to ask how long we'd be staying...I'm not 100% sure how I'd feel about it. I guess I won't know for certain until it happens. I know I wouldn't be rude and it wouldn't bother me much, but I do think I'd feel a little put off by it. To be clear, my response of "Excuse me, can I ask how long are you staying" is based on the OP's situation of people milling about, unsure if they are packing up. If a site is obviously occupied, we don't approach. If site after site is occupied as in schwartyman's situation, I'd absolutely ask. I try to model being very polite, friendly, and helpful to my kids - as well as how to read body language. If someone looks friendly, or someone looks like they don't want to talk, it is pretty obvious. I get and respect that some people want solitude and don't want to talk to anyone, but that's not really our style of being humans, and I think both types need to respect each other. I have no problem chatting with people when an encounter happens, I think that type of fellowship makes the BWCA special. Last year on a portage - a man, woman, and probably their 20-something daughter pulled right up next to us as we were unloading at a tight portage, stern-like and kinda unfriendly, unloaded right next to me as I was trying to get everyone out and barged right past us without saying a word. THAT, to me, felt rude. |
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schweady |
bottomtothetap: "Just curious: What was their breach of etiquette?... Not a big one, but just thought I'd preemptively cut off comments from those sensitive to folks using campsites for lunch. Especially on busy lakes near entries. We've done it, too, but usually while out fishing... maybe a candy bar and a water by the shore. A place to stretch our legs and use the latrine. That way, I usually think that it's easy enough to show folks coming by that we are not staying, but it can become less obvious, I guess. An actual, unmistakable breach might be in setting up a tarp and cooking a hot lunch while your camp is set up on another site. |
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MikeinMpls |
mgraber: "One of the campsite etiquette questions raised here is if it is OK to use a campsite for lunch or rest stops. According to the FS that would be a no. It clearly states in the LNT principles, "Do not take a campsite for day use". A quick phone call confirmed their stance on this, it is not OK to occupy a campsite that you have no intention of staying at. They said a restroom break would be OK, but not stopping for lunch. We have done this in the past, but have stopped. I have no idea if it would actually be enforced." I didn't know this. My wife and I often go ashore to use the latrine and check out the campsite for our own curiosity. I will remember that for lunches. Mike |
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thegildedgopher |
MikeinMpls: "mgraber: "One of the campsite etiquette questions raised here is if it is OK to use a campsite for lunch or rest stops. According to the FS that would be a no. It clearly states in the LNT principles, "Do not take a campsite for day use". A quick phone call confirmed their stance on this, it is not OK to occupy a campsite that you have no intention of staying at. They said a restroom break would be OK, but not stopping for lunch. We have done this in the past, but have stopped. I have no idea if it would actually be enforced." See the PDF and explanation in my post directly above this one. IMO you are totally fine having lunch. |
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thegildedgopher |
mgraber: "thegildedgopher: "schweady: "bottomtothetap: "Just curious: What was their breach of etiquette?... I believe you are confusing the "LNT Principles" for the "BWCA Rules/Regulations." Much of the LNT principles inform and also appear in the rules section, in which case they are rules and they are enforceable. The language you're referring to is under the "Be Considerate of Others" heading in the LNT principles, but it is not in the rules section. LNT info is found on page 4 of this PDF from the USFS. The actual enforceable rules are found on page 5. Again -- I agree we should all be courteous and limit time spent on sites where we don't intend to camp. But it's not breaking the rules. |
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EddyTurn |
mgraber: "I was just passing info along, but yeah, lets just ignore recommended principles as long as they are not enforceable rules. smh" Unless you never drive at 70 mph in 65mph zone, I can't see where the irony comes from. Most people ignore authorities' recommendations and rules daily and routinely challenge the said authorities competence (sometimes for good reason). There are few well-known for their competence wilderness trippers that question some LNT principles. BTW, BWCA Rules and Regulations state: make camp early in the day... - I wonder if this rule is enforceable. |
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missmolly |
mschi772: "What does it say about our community that people have to question whether or not a polite inquiry would be inappropriate?" I think about the Texan man who just shot and killed two police officers for simply trying to catch a stray dog on his lawn. Territoriality can make some people insane and murderous. |