Boundary Waters Quetico Forum :: Trip Planning Forum :: The Agnes bear(s)
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dustytrail |
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thistlekicker |
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JDM2 |
joewildlife: "I wonder about a bear proof container requirement as well. If there is a will there is often a way. I felt that bear resistant canisters were the only serious protection for unattended food so I made the switch from hiding and hanging to canisters. It was an easy transition for me. I felt that it was better for myself, the wild animals, and the other campers. I used similar reasoning for getting vaccines. Unless required I respect the choices of others regarding PFD's , food protection, and personal camping styles. |
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PeaceFrog |
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thistlekicker |
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JDM2 |
Some people do not consider food protection important or do not understand the impact and take little or no precaution. Others understand the impact and feel compelled to do their best but expense, convenience, or difficulty cause them to fall short. Be informed and trip with a clear conscience. John |
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coffeetalk |
I did a loop out of LIS north last week. I don't remember which evening it was, whether I was camped on Hustler or Ge-be-on-e-quet (would have been June 26 or 27), but I definitely heard rifle fire. Definitely a centerfire rifle, definitely out of the east. Two shots several seconds apart, and a third maybe up to a minute later. Are people still having nuisance bears on Agnes? |
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mjmkjun |
Voyager: "Remember! bear spray canisters spray approximately 9 seconds. Agnes Lake has repeated accounts of 3 bears. That gives you 3 seconds per bear. Good luck, and don't spray till you see the whites ( or reds) of their eyes." Voyager, you jest, yes? If not, then 'we' are sh*t of luck because the videos I watched instructed to spray until bear turns to flee. If you wait until you see the white of a charging bear's eyes and it's headed to you--you'll be flying in the air upon impact or underneath smelling its stinky breath. In reality, I think most black bears just meander around the campground slightly annoyed with wide-eyed campers talking in tongues, freaking out, and helpless. |
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billconner |
BWCAW bear container requirement |
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pearl62 |
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mpswid0 |
Matt |
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RRHD |
desertcanoe: "About the cost of bear-proof containers. |
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Voyager |
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joewildlife |
Came out from LLC on Friday and one party had a determined bear clean out their food pack which was hung. Bear got it down, bear ate all their food despite the yelling and harassment from the campers. Another party on Agnes said they had a bear trying to haul off their food pack when they returned to camp, and their dog scared it off. They said it was a light colored black bear. Probably a different one. On Crooked, a group told me that had a bear walk through their site on the west side of Thursday bay, too. Joe |
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HighnDry |
I just stayed on Nina Moose overnight on the 12th and portaged out on the 13th to the parking lot. I did not see or hear of any bear activity so there's no way to know if this was a one off or a recurring pattern. |
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schweady |
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airmorse |
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joewildlife |
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R1verrunner |
mjmkjun: "Voyager: "Remember! bear spray canisters spray approximately 9 seconds. Agnes Lake has repeated accounts of 3 bears. That gives you 3 seconds per bear. Good luck, and don't spray till you see the whites ( or reds) of their eyes." At the distances that spray is recommended one well have a very good look at any bear. |
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sns |
mjmkjun: "talking in tongues, freaking out, and helpless." Are you talking about campers or politicians? |
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Beast388 |
Trg: "So we proceeded to take the portages back to Agnes by the ranger cabin and the longer portage into Agnes from the Boulder River. Stayed at the first camp site off the portage. " After entering Agnes from the 115 rod portage from the Boulder River, did you stay in the first campsite to the right or the left? On Friday morning (6-18), we entered Agnes from that portage....and after determining that Agnes was not crossable due to the wind & whitecaps, we stayed in the first site to the right. We could get to that one while being sorta protected from the ugly swells and waves. Our original plan was to push to Nina-Moose due to the bear problems on Agnes, but mother nature had other ideas. We kept the food hung and kept the cleanest camp we could. Luckily, we had no issues. On our way in on 6-12, we passed a couple of guys heading out....they had just completed the last portage before entering Agnes if you're heading north. They told us that there was a bear on the portage and that they scared it away the best they could. Ugh. We modified our usual portage routine....and sent two guys across with the food packs and a paddle each. One guy stayed and guarded the food while the other three portaged the rest of the gear and canoes. That was a new experience. |
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Trgobin |
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schweady |
joewildlife: "...what if they made a 60L bear vault!..." Guaranteed sale here. (But, of course, they'd want $400.00 for it...) |
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tmccann |
I spent the ENTIRE summer of 1976 as wilderness ranger on Agnes Lake. It was a full time job convincing people to keep a clean camp (dont bury fish skins, etc). The bear legacy continues but the full time adult supervision was never continued after my summer there. I wouldnt avoid Agnes if you really want to go through there. Just inspect your campsite for buried or discarded fish and garbage. Clean up the camp yourself (including the micro litter - that smells too) and prepare to protect your gear from depredation. Stay only ONE NIGHT on your way to LLC. Its the base campers who seem to attract bear. |
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PeaceFrog |
Leave no trace> |
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billconner |
mpswid0: "If it gets too bad, I can see the forest service either setting up permanent poles and wires to hang bags, or place bear proof containers in every camp site. It would definitely be a lot of work and money though. Of the two, much prefer the poles and wire rope. It is easy and apparently successful at Philmont. I hate to think what I would find left in the metal boxes. Both seem not practical to install in BWCAW. Rental containers seem more likely. |
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mpswid0 |
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OHPaddler |
schweady: "joewildlife: "...what if they made a 60L bear vault!..." I had conversations in early 2021 with both Bearikade and Bearvault about building a 60L version of their product for canoe tripping. Neither has the current capability to produce a 60L version. Bearikade Response: The carbon fiber cylinders that are used for the Bearikade are table rolled with offset seams. The tooling produces a six foot long “log”. We dice these to make 82 different sizes. The largest Bearikade we shipped last year was 22” tall. The largest cylinder ever manufactured and sold was nearly six feet long. I think that the Bearikade diameter is ~9" Bearvault: Thank you for reaching out to us. We have definitely thought about this. The size limitations originate from our equipment, although we are looking at some other suppliers who may be able to make a larger version. It. would also have to be thicker to compensate for the larger proportions (making it heavier - which only really matters during portage). You're right, it is something to consider for the canoeists. We will look more into this once we determine the capabilities of suppliers. Thank you for sending your suggestion, and also for supplying the exact specification that would work best. |
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R1verrunner |
These problem bears should be removed . There is really no reason one or two bears. Should be allowed to ruin disrupt endanger the lives of hundreds of humans. The forest service has a lot of liability if some one gets injured by a known problem bear and they refuse to act. Case out of AZ cost the state a couple million dollars MMt lemon bear attack |
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tumblehome |
Tom |
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PineKnot |
This trip ended on Day 13 being chased out by the threat of Q fires jumping into LLC and nearby lakes. Who actually knew one could encounter 5 rangers on 3 separate occassions and once by a game warden in a nice-looking Lund....all within 24 hours?! That's a tale for another thread, but all these encounters were cordial and professional.... And what will the Agnes bears do for food while Agnes remains closed for....weeks?? |
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Trg |
On my way home after coming out today…this was my 7th trip and first bear encounter…stories to tell when I get home. Safe travels and stay safe. |
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walleyejunky |
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HighnDry |
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prizes14 |
Fortunately I was able to halfway stitch my pack with parachute cord and catch enough fish to last the week. I've had that Granite Gear Superior 1 pack with me on 9 trips and hated to lose it. I couldn't believe how much trash people just throw in the fire grates without even burning it (which I know you aren't supposed to do anyway.) Also plenty of hooks, fishing line and plastic worms thrown about many sites. Oh, and did I mention the walleye carcasses just thrown in the water? Makes my blood boil. |
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Lawnchair107 |
HighnDry: "At the very least, it sounds like we should all pass-through this lake and not plan to camp there overnight. That's an incredible amount of bear activity on that lake. It's starting to rival SAK bear activity in years past." We will yes, but the noobs who don’t know better (not aware of the problems) will still continue and this nasty circle will continue to play out. |
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billconner |
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prizes14 |
billconner: "I'm curious to learn did bears get bag at day or night? Were you in camp or day tripping? " He came at night and when I was cleaning it up early morning was when he tried to come back. |
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mjmkjun |
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RatherbeDuffing |
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joewildlife |
However, I have two BV500 Bear Vaults. Not only are they about $84 each, two of them won't nearly hold a trip's worth of food, and there is no good way to carry them. But I use a 60L barrel and keep a clean camp but I don't hang my barrel. I know it isn't bear resistant. I would prefer they NOT put a blanket restriction like this in place, but rather just choose to stay away from those super popular areas with known bears. The noobs are certainly making the problem worse, I've seen a LOT of bad behavior in the BWCA my last three trips (during Covid), and I honestly don't think anybody reading this forum is the problem. Joe |
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RatherbeDuffing |
joewildlife: "I wonder about a bear proof container requirement as well. I am a little surprised those bear vaults don't have a bigger canoe country size. Theoretically they could make one the same size as the blue barrels. It would be a bit heavier but oh well... Agree completely that the people causing the issue don't frequent this board. I really wish they would increase entry fees to get some more patrols checking people. Hope they drop the hammer on people they catch. The lasting damage these idiots cause greatly outlasts the pain they feel in their pocket book |
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A1t2o |
joewildlife: "I wonder about a bear proof container requirement as well. I do the blue barrel as well. I used to hang, but I've heard stories and watched videos about bears getting into a properly hung pack. There's risk no matter what you do. I figure that at least with the barrel, it isn't that expensive to replace it if it does get damaged, it seals in the scent so it isn't as easily identified as food, and it keeps out racoons and squirrels that might otherwise chew through a hung pack. Plus hanging a food pack is a huge pain so most of the time it probably isn't high enough and/or far enough from the tree. At least the barrel is easy enough to avoid doing it wrong. |
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joewildlife |
I don't hang. I hide, the Cliff Jacobsen technique, I take it with me during the day if day tripping, or I pile pots and pans on it as an alarm system and will try to defend my food. The latter approach clearly doesn't work on the Agnes bears. So I choose just not to go there...work my butt off to bypass it on the way in or out to LLC. Hopefully some archers will take care of the problem. I'd say a guy could go in looking like a canoeist, apply some deet and sunscreen as cover scent, forego the camo, and fry up some fish and bacon for breakfast, and sit back and wait for Yogi and get him with a bow...problem solved. Joe |
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Lawnchair107 |
joewildlife: "I'd say a guy could go in looking like a canoeist, apply some deet and sunscreen as cover scent, forego the camo, and fry up some fish and bacon for breakfast, and sit back and wait for Yogi and get him with a bow...problem solved. Haha, +1 |
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merlyn |
Live trap and relocate the problem bears. close the camp sites for 2 years. Would you not pick up a $20.00 bill found laying on the ground? why would you expect bears to forgo a free meal, you brought it in his house after all. |
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thistlekicker |
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joewildlife |
Trap and relocate would be extremely difficult if not impossible. I don't know if they would shoot a problem bear, or if they leave it up to hunters to do it via regular hunting seasons. Do they every close camping on a given lake? The Bearikades look interesting but far too pricey! I would suspect that Bear Vaults couldn't be made effectively in a 60L version but a 30L version should be doable. I would hate to go back to a pack with two 30L barrels, I had a Kondo and was terrible to carry and had to sit upright in my canoe, while my CCS Quad Pocket 60L barrel pack is good to carry and lays down in my canoe for a lower center of gravity. Joe |
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mjmkjun |
merlyn: "WOW! While we are killing off all those child eating bears I think we should deal with the tooth problem on the northern pike and those sharp fins on the walleye, trap out the mice and shoot the chippys and end their reign of terror on unprotected white bread, don't forget the Roundup to kill those pesky trees blocking my view and where is the DDT when we need it? mosquitoes, blackflies and ticks OhMy. How dare these creatures interfere with my once a year 5 day 4 night" wilderness" vacation !! The nerve! they act like they live here? Wildlife belong in a zoo just like God intended. I like your thinking. Sadly, understaffed FS districts aren't going to find the funds to dart, sedate, and relocate. Culling is cheaper. |
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treehorn |
joewildlife: "So does the USFS or MN DNR actually DO anything about problem bears in the BWCA? They will close campsites at times, and kill them at times. What exactly triggers them to spring into this type of action, I have no idea. Obviously it has to do with repeated reports from multiple groups of campers, but how many and what types of reports, I don't know. |
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JDM2 |
PeaceFrog: "Well I am planning a trip through EP16 next June. Hope the bear moves on before then. Was planning to use a Ursack. Might have to reconsider." Bear resistant canisters are pricey but quality pre-owned canisters can be found for less than half retail if you have the time to search. I prefer canisters but have considered taking a Ursack in addition to a canister to contain the overflow when one canister will not hold everything starting out. |
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merlyn |
I guess I don't have a solution to the Agnes bears except to close the camp sites in question long enough to re educate the bears that this is not a food source. Preserving the wildlife as wild is part of LNT. |
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Wispaddler |
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danbogey |
Wispaddler: "We have taken to using a 30L blue barrel (foot for 2 for a week) and bike lock cable it to a tree maybe 50 yds from camp off in the bush. There is zero scent plus they seem to really be keying in on the campsites as opposed to randomly scouring the area in the vicinity. And we keep a very clean camp. So far so good. I think the problem bears have learned to spot those odd looking things hanging from the trees and really go after them. " There's no such thing as zero scent. "Conservative estimates of a black bear's sense of smell state that a black bear can smell a food source from over a mile away, while other sources claim a black bear can smell food from over two miles away. " I'd be careful putting my barrel that far, you'll never hear the bear getting into it. If you're occupying a campsite I'm guessing any bear within a mile will know you're there. If they're feeling up to it they'll pay you a visit to see what they can scrounge. My method for my 60-liter barrel is to put a cotter pin in the handle release and find the best spot near you to secure it. I try and find places I can wedge it into then just wrap the rope around it and the tree 5 or 6 times, I'll then place some pots and pans with pebbles so if yogi decides to mess with it I'll at least hear it at night. trying to hang a barrel is almost impossible and leads people to hoist it up a tree where the barrel rests on the tree. I've seen bears scramble up the tree, pop then lid, and rummage through everything. As far as the Bearikades, I have one but only use it when I'm hiking in the Sierra Nevada Mountains. They are expensive but worth it when your ultralight backpacking. My go-to solo food storage in the BWCA is the Ursack XL Major |
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desertcanoe |
Yeah they're kinda pricey. As others have mentioned, in grizzly country out west they're mandatory for any backcountry travel. Out there, if you don't want to buy, it's pretty standard that you can rent Bearvaults. Even the Forest Service offices rent them in popular areas like Rocky Mountain National Park We never go into the backcountry without our food in bearproof containers. Used to use Bearvaults but we moved on to Ursacks. They're approved for used by the Interagency Grizzly Bear Committee (IGBC) so I figure they'll stop a black bear. In an Ursack a bear can mess up my food (they crush) but they can't get at it. Which means after they've messed up one or two they learn it's not worth their while and leave them alone. I think 2 Ursacks actually weighs less than bringing rope along for hanging. And they pack down small when empty (they never both get empty because of packing out garbage.) FYI here’s the IGBC approved list of containers, coolers etc: http://igbconline.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/210614_Certified_Products_List-1.pdf Whatever we choose, just remember a bear’s gonna do what a bear’s gonna do and respect that. Bears become “problem bears” because of “problem humans. If I’m hanging out in the bears’ home, I don’t put my food where I’m going to cause a bear to get shipped out or killed. Just like if I'm visiting in someone’s house, I don’t leave my gun out where their kids can play with it and get killed. If I left it out and their kid was playing with the gun, that’s my fault. (And I don’t get to bow-hunt the kids.) I figure the weight and cost and inconvenience of a bearproof container is part of the price of respecting the wild. |
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mjmkjun |
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prizes14 |
VoyageurNorth: "Unfortunately most bears who are live captured usually end up coming back in a year or two. They better get to those sites on Boulder and Tiger Bay by about noon because they were all locked up when I was up there. Not one open. Once I got to Fish Stake Narrows up north, there were open sites all the way west. The number of people up there is ridiculous, even with permits to limit people. |
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VoyageurNorth |
I have been advising anyone doing the #16 Moose River route to either not camp in Agnes or bring a barrel. People are making sure they get out early enough to get up to Boulder Bay or Tiger Bay. |
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PeaceFrog |
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pastorjsackett |
Just to put all comments from Thistlekicker above in perspective.... We Don't Want Anymore Bears! |
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JDM2 |
billconner: "mpswid0: "If it gets too bad, I can see the forest service either setting up permanent poles and wires to hang bags, or place bear proof containers in every camp site. It would definitely be a lot of work and money though. Equipment and procedures go hand in hand. People often do not understand or care about the function or proper use of equipment. Even if the forest service provided steel vaults or poles with cables at campsites some people would fail to use them properly. Also in camp is not the only time that food is vulnerable Our choices regarding food protection can effect our trip, the wildlife, and the trips of other. I determined that bear resistant canisters provide the best insurance of success for myself while still being practical. When researching bear resistant canisters I came across articles and videos of bears that have defeated them, still they are my currant preferred method. I chose to guard or secure my food. Food is either in my possession or stowed properly in a bear resistant canister. Unattended food that is not properly stowed on portages or anytime in camp is in my opinion an unnecessary and preventable risk. I single portage but if I were to leave my food canister unattended on a portage or in camp it would be properly stowed without the carry harness attached. Discussions like this are like preaching to the choir. Those reading this thread likely have an interest in the function and use of equipment and though we don't always agree we may be searching to improve the experience for ourselves and others. John |
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joewildlife |
I have a few things to address here: 1) I have always planned on defending my food pack. Others have said that is their plan too. Problem is, the bear in question would not be deterred by the campers. They could not scare him off the pack. So I learned that in the case of these problem bears, it takes more if you plan on defending your food. it takes bear spray at least. But, bear spray has hardly been mentioned in this thread, nor other threads on BWCA bears I've seen. Maybe there is something I don't know about it. But I don't think any of us should be so cocky as to assume they can scare off the bear. 2) Lots of folks rely on hanging their packs. These smart bears find hanging packs, and know to chew through the securing ropes to get the whole pack down. Unless you are using steel cables, you are fooling yourself if you think your pack is safe. Sure, it may be less visible and not even smell, but the bears know it is there. 3) I have a couple BV500 cannisters but would need 2 to 3 more to replace my 60L blue barrel. I don't want to use them...if you don't remove them from your pack, the bear will destroy the pack and then what do you do? They are just a pain. I don't know the answers but I'm going to continue to use my 60L barrel where I can legally, with a plan to defend it. Might start carrying bear spray. But personally I won't stay on a lake with known bear problems. Joe |
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mjmkjun |
PeaceFrog: "Agree. Bear spray is something I am considering to have with me. I am also researching the use of wolf pee as a deterrent. Have seen or heard of anyone using it or its effectiveness. Anyone?" Pee: Don't be surprised if it attracts wolves! |
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LarryS48 |
1) keeping a clean camp, 2) storing food in a blue barrel, and 3) strapping the barrel to a tree at ground level a bit out of camp. This has worked well. However, there is room for improvement and if I was going where there are know problem bears, it is worth thing about. Most of the common options and their strengths and weaknesses have been mentioned. There is one option I think about that has not been mentioned. Maybe it has short comings I don’t see or maybe not. What do you think? Here is the idea, combine a blue barrel and ursacks. This could be done in several ways. 1) Instead of using nylon organizers inside the barrel to separate your foods, use ursacks. Perhaps the company could be talked into making sacks to fit the barrels. 2) Protect the entire barrel by putting it in a ursack. Again, someone would have to convince the company to make such sacks. This wouldn’t be hard for barrels carried in a barrel pack. If you wanted the barrel in a sack with a harness over it, it might take more work to get a design that worked. So, what do you think? |
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PeaceFrog |
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R1verrunner |
Worth trying I carry a canister on every trip. Never had to use it. But don't be surprised if it does not work. |
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VoyageurNorth |
That is a really, really big one year old, if that was true. And that is a really big bear for the BWCA, even at adult size. If it had been attacking other people, then it should have been dealt with. Not moved somewhere else. The bear(s( on Agnes, as far as I have heard from customers, has only been interested in the food/food pack. Maybe it has not run out of camp right away, but has not been aggressive towards people. Bear reports in the past for Agnes have also been interested in the food, not the people. This bear is getting too used to people & food so if more people choose to camp on a different lake, it may help. Or this bear may just wait till next year or the next, see people and decide to look for the "pik a nik" baskets again. This bear might be a candidate for either moving far away or we can tell people who are hunting in the BWCA this fall where they can find a bear fairly easy. For hunters, I figure if they are going to shoot a bear anyway, might as well get one that has been a nuisance plus may be plump because of what it is eating. :-) R1verrunner: "Mn has lots of bears. |
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RatherbeDuffing |
joewildlife: "I don't think we are preaching to the choir here. I think there is a pretty good discussion going. I agree with you about hanging packs. 90% of the packs aren't hung correctly either due to inexperience, laziness, or just not having the right tree around. It just isn't worth the time. IRegarding bear vaults... they are expensive, but so are the blue barrels and they will last a long time. Other parks have successfully implemented it so I don't think it is too huge a burden. Definitely would be an adjustment as people probably couldn't bring as much crap as they normally do For what it's worth I just switched to bringing bearvaults. Previously I have just hid/defended my food without issue. Doing a hike out west this summer so I made the change. Definitely impacted my meal plans in the BWCA this summer, but I slept better at night knowing I didn't have to worry about it |
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JDM2 |
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desertcanoe |
billconner: "mpswid0: "If it gets too bad, I can see the forest service either setting up permanent poles and wires to hang bags, or place bear proof containers in every camp site. It would definitely be a lot of work and money though. This is pretty standard in Canadian national parks. Poles with wires in the Canadian Rockies. In Pukaskwa on the north shore of Lake Superior east of Thunder Bay they have the boxes. And yeah, people leave stuff in them. |
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R1verrunner |
A 356lb is a big bear. Most yearlings are in the 75 to 100lb range. Could well be dealing with more then one bear. 356lbs is an odd estimate I have weighed and seen a lot of bears weighted Most guessamates are way off on live bears. We have a weight contest with every one throwing in a dollar the winner usual is with in 10lbs. But the weight guess can be way off also. Most of those are by people with little exspearince. |
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Reke0402 |
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PeaceFrog |
Reke0402: "We left Agnes on Saturday morning, one of the small bears stopped by for a minute Friday night till we told him to get lost, we cooked fish that night so i am sure he smelled the grease, other then that no issues. I know the other 2 sites around us had the bears stop by a little more frequently. " Hunters take notice |