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Markley	08/08/2016 07:41PM   Hey all, My wife just took a new job and it looks like she will have a week off (next week ). So we are thinking of a last second trip to the BWCA. We plan on just packing up this Friday and leaving early Saturday morning to start our 19 hr drive up from Western NC. We are bringing our site on top kayaks, fishing gear, and lightweight camping gear. We will likely have 4 full days (mon-thurs) to spend exploring. The BWCA is an area we've had on our radar for some time and thought we'd take advantage of an unexpected week off to check it out. I was wondering if y'all be able to get us at least headed in the right direction as we have not had (or have) much time to plan. I'm thinking we'd like to try to do at least a 1 night paddle camp, and maybe just some day trips. So a nice place to Basecamp would be appreciated! We are mostly interested in solitude, scenery, wildlife (seeing a moose;)), and fishing..in that order. Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated!!
Grandma L	08/08/2016 08:06PM   If you are thinking of actually going into the BWCA and camping there, you will need a permit. BWCA Permit registrations site If you camp at one of the Forest Service Campgrounds, you can enter on day permits, enjoy a day trip and return to the campground at night. Day permits can easily be obtained daily as you decide where to paddle. There are several nice campgrounds - just outside of Ely, Fall Lake Campground, which is on a BWCA lake so direct entry - no transporting or shuttle. Up near Tofte (Hwy 61 on Superior) is Sawbill Campground which is similar. There are also a couple campgrounds up the Gun Flint Trail, East Bearskin and Flour Lakes.
cowdoc	08/08/2016 08:07PM   We can make a lot of suggestions but the permit quota will be your limiting factor at this point. Early August can be a busy time. I have not been on recreation.gov in a while to see what is available for permits. I reserved my permit back in March for our upcoming Aug. 27th trip. You CAN drive up and stop at a Ranger Station to see what is left over, but for a newby, you may then have no knowledge of what to expect of that entry point, and you may not even have the maps. Kayaks can be used but can sometimes be a pain to unpack, portage and repack, especially if you want solitude which will mean a fair number of portages to get back off the beaten routes. You may want to start by clicking on the Planning tab at the top and see if you have further questions.
ChicagoMoose	08/08/2016 08:18PM   Your costal kayak experience and lightweight backpacking experience will transfer well. My only point was if you're trying to get away from people and get out of the front country the kayaks may hold you back. Just my opinion based on kayaking around Florida and on the Great Lakes. You may get exactly the permits you need, I have a last minute trip over Labor Day week and had my choice of first picks for the BW or Quetico. The suggestion of grabbing a front country site near Ely where you can venture out on day trips and not have to portage is also great advise! True solitude will be tough to find unless you get a few portages off the beaten path (lake?) - but it's not impossible. I'm not affiliated with them in any way but try calling Pirigis or Williams & Hall and talk to them. Tell them the gear you have, experience and have them look up what permits are available. Yes, you can do all this research yourself, but based on your time frame that's my recommendation. Good luck! Steve
Markley	08/08/2016 08:37PM   Thanks Grandma L!! So it seems like the consensus is to leave the kayaks at home. I'm okay with that if it will make things easier..it's just that I feel we would cover more ground padding our kayaks. Although I have never had to portage them, and I can understand how much of a pain that would be. I'll give a call to a the suggested outfitters!
billconner	08/08/2016 08:58PM   Marley - to you is solitude seeing almost no one, even across a lake, or something else?
Markley	08/08/2016 09:07PM   quote billconner: "Marley - to you is solitude seeing almost no one, even across a lake, or something else? " I guess that does need some clarifying:) I'm fine if we are not the only ones on the lake, just don't want to be surrounded (and would rather not be around motor boats). Being more used to western NC where the lakes are nowhere near as numerous, it is difficult to get away from crowds.
cowdoc	08/08/2016 09:28PM   quote Markley: "quote billconner: "Marley - to you is solitude seeing almost no one, even across a lake, or something else? " I guess that does need some clarifying:) I'm fine if we are not the only ones on the lake, just don't want to be surrounded (and would rather not be around motor boats). Being more used to western NC where the lakes are nowhere near as numerous, it is difficult to get away from crowds. " Only a few lakes on the edge of the BW allow motor boats . The whole interior is motorless. Designated campsites on the lakes have quite a bit of distance between them. You have to look hard to see another campsite. You may have a canoe or 2 paddle past your site during a day or you may see a few other canoes on a day out fishing. As said before, late July and early August is the busiest season so total solitude is near impossible, but you won't be bumping into people and you will be alone at your camp site.
Markley	08/09/2016 07:29AM   Thanks Lindylair (and everyone else)! I'm really glad that I came here to seek advice. Everyone has been so helpful and I know that this will make for a much better experience!! Particularly renting a canoe, which seems to be the main piece of advice to take with us! Regarding the permit system, is one permit good for the both of us? For instance, the #66 Crocodile River there is only 1 permit available on Monday. Also, if we get the permit for Monday, can we stay multiple nights? Thanks again everyone!
Markley	08/09/2016 07:35AM   Yeah, typically my idea of solitude would be as you described. However, I realize that this would be difficult without better planning;)
inspector13	08/09/2016 07:49AM   quote Markley: "Regarding the permit system, is one permit good for the both of us? For instance, the #66 Crocodile River there is only 1 permit available on Monday. Also, if we get the permit for Monday, can we stay multiple nights?" Yes. One permit per party (up to 9 people 4 watercraft) and it is good for the duration of your stay within the borders of the BWCAW.
ducks	08/09/2016 08:53AM   Welcome Markley!!! You are getting lots of good advice. I'm also in the "think you'll be happier renting a canoe" crowd. I have done all 3 trips that lindylair suggested and like them all. Crocodile.... My 11 yo daughter and I were just there last week. The only people we saw on Crocodile were the ones leaving the campsite that we took after they vacated. We then had the lake to ourselves. Walleye are cooperative on that lake if you are looking to fish. You could rent a canoe from Bearskin Outfitters and push off right from their place at East Bearskin Lake. Hog Creek to Perent..... My wife and I took our oldest there when she was 5 for her first bwca trip. Again... the walleye usually cooperate on this lake. It takes longer to get down Hog Creek than it looks on the map because it's so twisty and narrow. You could rent a canoe from Sawtooth Outfitters in Tofte or Sawbill Outfitters at the end of the Sawbill Trail and they would help get it strapped to your vehicle for you to drive it to the Entry Point. Meeds..... The portage from Poplar to Meeds is definitely the most difficult of the 3 options given out here. BUT, it gets you to my favorite area of the bwca. This entrance would give you more options of traveling to different lakes. Horseshoe Lake in the area is a well known area for seeing Moose. You can rent a canoe from Rockwood Outfitters on Poplar and paddle right from their place for this trip. As lindylair suggested you could exit at Lizz which is a much easier portage than Meeds and brings you back to Poplar Lake. When you decide on an E.P. let us know if you want and we can give you more info on that area.
Markley	08/09/2016 09:34AM   Thanks for these suggested trips! Based on your descriptions, the Meeds Lake (with loop and potential side trip to other lakes) sounds to be the most intriguing to me. Granted, the one long portage (~1 mile) isn't ideal, but i'd be fine with it. So regarding portages (and this long one in particular), are they generally flat? open trails? Also, do you typically have to take 2 trips (one with gear then go back for boat) in each direction?
Markley	08/09/2016 09:34AM   Thanks for these suggested trips! Based on your descriptions, the Meeds Lake (with loop and potential side trip to other lakes) sounds to be the most intriguing to me. Granted, the one long portage (~1 mile) isn't ideal, but i'd be fine with it. So regarding portages (and this long one in particular), are they generally flat? open trails? Also, do you typically have to take 2 trips (one with gear then go back for boat) in each direction?
pswith5	08/09/2016 10:18AM   I would say most people double portage. Unless you are hard core or in a hurry. As far as elevation changes on portages that varies considerably. Of course, we have no mountains in Minnesota so you won't be climbing too big of a hill if any. One thought I didn't see anyone make; if cost isn't an issue and you like the freedom of paddling alone, you could rent two solo canoes. That gives you space for gear but also lets you be in control of your own boat. Of course that means one more thing to carry. Good luck. Enjoy our wilderness.
Markley	08/09/2016 10:34AM   quote pswith5: "I would say most people double portage. Unless you are hard core or in a hurry. As far as elevation changes on portages that varies considerably. Of course, we have no mountains in Minnesota so you won't be climbing too big of a hill if any. One thought I didn't see anyone make; if cost isn't an issue and you like the freedom of paddling alone, you could rent two solo canoes. That gives you space for gear but also lets you be in control of your own boat. Of course that means one more thing to carry. Good luck. Enjoy our wilderness." Thanks! Good point on the solo canoes..that's something to consider! I do tend to 'venture' off and fish when my wife and I paddle:)
Markley	08/09/2016 10:53AM   I have another question regarding the permits. I noticed that there are no permits available for Meeds Lake on Monday which is the likely day that we would launch. I'm thinking we'd arrive in the area early afternoon on Sunday, therefore likely wouldn't have time to get rental canoes, supplies, etc. and paddle to a camp spot. If we got a permit for Sunday but weren't able to launch until Monday morning, would that be allowed? This may limit our entry point searches to Monday availabilities (and use Sunday afternoon to get set up). Thanks
Markley	08/09/2016 12:03PM   quote Grandma L: "Permits require that you enter at the designated entry point on the day for which the permit is issued. You should hurry, decide and get a permit - they will not last long on the reservation site. You can also cancel the permits up to 24hr. b/4 if this doesn't work out. There are Monday permits open for both Moose Lake and Fall Lake on the Ely side. Get the Moose permit and then work with La Tourell Outfitters (800) 365-4531 to get a tow up to the border and out of the motor area. Travel the border to Isle of Pines (Dorothy Molter's ), climb Thunder Point. Loading for our tow at La Tourell's" That's what I figured..So I guess this limits our entry points to Monday. With that said, how much is the cancellation fee? Here are a few Monday openings of interest (based on suggestions): -Moose Lake (get towed out of motor area) -Hog Lake -Crocodile River -Daniels Lake There are more available Monday as well. Can anyone rank in order of there preferences? The other option is to do a 2 night trip from Meeds Lake (if it is doable?). Also, there are a number of openings on Tuesday as compared to Monday. If we started on Tuesday, we could always do a day trip on Monday.
cowdoc	08/09/2016 12:32PM   Meeds has 2 open for Tues. Spend a nite on Meeds, maybe a nite on Caribou or Horseshoe and exit at Lizz. Also, there is still one each for Monday at Skipper and Missing Link. A Missing Link entry with a trip to Snipe would be nice. You could exit at Cross Bay and easily walk back to your vehicle at Tuscarora or the Round Lake public lot. Just a word of warning for this time of year. LOTS of people going in or coming out tends to crowd the lakes near entry points. You may have to go in a 3-4 portages to find an open campsite. Not trying to be negative, just saying what I know happens......many stories of people coming out a day early because they headed back close to camp at a lake near their exit point but could not find an open site. Historically, the first couple weeks of August are some of the busiest times. Just don't want you to be bummed out on your first trip.....be prepared.
Markley	08/09/2016 01:41PM   quote cowdoc: "Meeds has 2 open for Tues. Spend a nite on Meeds, maybe a nite on Caribou or Horseshoe and exit at Lizz. Also, there is still one each for Monday at Skipper and Missing Link. A Missing Link entry with a trip to Snipe would be nice. You could exit at Cross Bay and easily walk back to your vehicle at Tuscarora or the Round Lake public lot. Just a word of warning for this time of year. LOTS of people going in or coming out tends to crowd the lakes near entry points. You may have to go in a 3-4 portages to find an open campsite. Not trying to be negative, just saying what I know happens......many stories of people coming out a day early because they headed back close to camp at a lake near their exit point but could not find an open site. Historically, the first couple weeks of August are some of the busiest times. Just don't want you to be bummed out on your first trip.....be prepared." Thanks for the heads up on the crowds! I was hoping mid August wouldn't be too bad with folks gearing up for school to begin. Oh well, we'd be fine if we have to paddle and portage in a ways to find a spot.
ChicagoMoose	08/08/2016 08:06PM   Just my two cents as I'm not sure of your experience or weight/capacity of your sit on top kayaks. Because it's such short notice, I'd give an outfitter a ring, see what entry permits are available and rent a tandem canoe from them. You can still bring all your gear, throw a dry bag inside your pack as a pack liner and you'll be good from a gear standpoint. The outfitter can help maximize your experience and a canoe has a lot better carrying capacity, easier to portage and potentially safer on big lakes if weather rolls in. Again, others will probably advise otherwise just my two cents. Steve PS - absolutely do this trip, you won't be disappointed!
	08/08/2016 08:11PM   Also, if a 1 nighter is not sufficient to experience the BWCA, I'm all ears!! We are both experienced backpackers and have no problem packing light and making it a 3 nighter. Just thought having a base camp would be easier logistically. With that said, is there dispersed camping? We don't need a campground;)
	08/08/2016 08:12PM   Thanks for the advice! We are pretty experienced and can pack all we need for a few nights in our kayaks. We've done fairly long paddles (8-10 miles) off the coast with gear.
Markley	08/08/2016 08:18PM   Thanks for the suggestions!! So how crowded would the mentioned campgrounds be? Also, would we get solitude doing day trips?
Grandma L	08/08/2016 08:15PM   This maybe a good opportunity to use an outfitter. It is not just camping gear but route, food, water treatment, permits and appropriate boats. You are planning on a long drive - you should do some more in depth research to insure a better experience. dispersed camping is available in the Superior National Forest but not in the BWCA. Dispersed Camping Info.
cowdoc	08/08/2016 08:22PM   wow....I typed slow and a lot got posted...LOL
Grandma L	08/08/2016 08:23PM   If you really want solitude, you will have to travel into the BWCA a day or two. Your sit-on Kayaks will be difficult in the BWCA - especially when doing portages. I highly suggest an outfitter - in Ely contact Voyager North (218) 365-3251 or Spirit of the Wilderness (218) 365-3149. either are great. They will do full or part outfitting and will give you a ton of information. There are many outfitters who are high quality and who support this site. Check the tabs in black at the top of the page for resources.
Markley	08/08/2016 08:31PM   Thanks Steve! I'll give them a call tomorrow. Yeah I'm not at all opposed to grabbing a campsite and getting a taste of the BWCA with day trips. Can anyone offer entry points for day trips that we may be able to get away from crowds? I understand that with the haste at which we are planning this trip, and lack of permits make this difficult.
cowdoc	08/08/2016 09:01PM   I just checked the board. 3-4 permits available for Missing Link (ep 51) for next weekend and 2 for Monday. Give Tuscarora Lodge/Outfitters a call if your other options fall through.
Markley	08/08/2016 09:15PM   quote cowdoc: "I just checked the board. 3-4 permits available for Missing Link (ep 51) for next weekend and 2 for Monday. Give Tuscarora Lodge/Outfitters a call if your other options fall through." Thanks for the heads up! Much appreciated!
mc2mens	08/08/2016 11:42PM   It looks like you might be able to get a campsite at Fenske Lake Campground next Monday - Thursday. This is a nice campground near Ely, on the Echo Trail, just outside the BWCA. There are many EP's you could enter for day-tripping from there. And, you could do it in your kayaks, but you might consider renting a canoe in Ely or at the Echo Trail Outfitters (near the Fenske campground). You can reserve campsites on recreation.gov.
lindylair	08/09/2016 06:38AM   Markley, if you want the whole BWCA experience and you've driven that far, I would go for it but also agree with others that renting a tandem canoe would probably provide a much better experience. I checked the permit availability site for Sunday and Monday of next week and there are some but much of what is available are the less desirable permits, with a few exceptions. Consider a permit for #66 Crocodile River - you actually enter at the landing on East bearskin lake and canoe 35-40 minutes to a medium length but uphill portage into Crocodile Lake. It is a pretty lake off the beaten path with excellent walleye fishing, 4 campsites but frequently not very busy at all. Relative solitude with an easy and short paddle in and good wildlife possibilities. The Hog Creek entry is a small winding stream which you would canoe for quite awhile but then you enter Perent Lake which has quite a few sites including some island sites. The only portage is from your car to the entry landing. Could be a beaver dam pullover along the way though. A Meeds Lake permit entering at Poplar Lake and taking the one long portage to a lake full of feisty smallmouth bass and some walleyes too. Three campsites there and not a real busy lake generally. There is another option for exiting through Caribou and Lizz lakes that will get you back to Poplar without the long portage you entered on. All of these offer the typical beautiful BWCA scenery and although you may well see others they will not be "busy". I think these are great options for folks like yourselves with a limited amount of time and a long drive to get here. In all of these cases you could be in camp within 3-4 hours or less from putting in. But they are all nice areas and more importantly, they are available at this point. If you are determined to go I wouldn't wait too long to secure that permit. Enjoy.
Spartan2	08/09/2016 07:07AM   As he usually does, lindylair has made excellent suggestions.
tls	08/10/2016 11:48AM   quote Markley: "Yeah, typically my idea of solitude would be as you described. However, I realize that this would be difficult without better planning;) " first let me mention I am not an expert like many here. However I did take my first trip up to BWCA a few weeks back. Went on a spur of the moment decision. Grabbed spot #9 in East Bearskin Lake campground. tent camping no hookups close to the two holer, and even if others are there you won't know it. East Bearskin is a state forest campground tended to by East Bearskin Lodge. I would have to say the "tending" could be better but if seclusion is your goal while base camping it was perfect. the lake there was quite large, good paddling and good fishing. if you desire you can grab a day permit there and portage into BWCA for the day. unlimited permits that way. also using that as a base there are many other lakes nearby you can drive to and splash the yaks if you want. last week I went for my second trip. (first was good better go again) this time I took my 30' travel trailer. Sayed at Golden Eagle Lodge campground on Flour Lake. literally just a few miles down the road from East Bearskin. Another fantastic stay. Flour lake was very nice and good fishing. not as good as one would expect for BWCA but like any body of water, it takes time to figure it out. The folks at Golden Eagle were very pleasant, nice little camp store there and "beach"/launch. they have rentals if you are interested. nice part about base camping is you can paddle some, than fish some, than go hike some. after that take a half day and go to Grand Marais, check out the few shops and enjoy the Lake Superior shoreline.
fsupp	08/09/2016 02:36PM   quote Markley: "quote fsupp: "There is also a permit available for Cross Bay Lake on Tuesday on the Gunfliint side. The portages to Cross Bay and then on to Long Island Lake aren't bad, and there are a lot of very nice sites on Long Island. It's more a northern pike than a walleye area, but you'll also move through some moosey country. Tuscarora outfiters is right at the entry point. They have cabins and bunkhouses available, and a tandem kevlar canoe is only $45/day to rent. If you arrive on Sunday, you could spend Monday with, say, a short day trip from west Bearskin to Duncan to the stairway portage on Rose Lake, which has outstanding views into Canada. The Flour Lake and Trails End campgrounds of tghe Gunflint would also be good options. And have dinner at Trail Center. The members on the site tend to favor the Ely side of the BWCA, but I am in the Gunflint Trail camp (though I've taken many wonderful trips out of Ely in the winter and summer). The drive up the north shore of Lake Superior from Duluth is spectacular, with waterfalls everywhere and 6 state parks along the way to Grand Marais, where you could stop for short hikes. It's a part of the state that's not to be missed, and Duluth is just cool. Also, the portage from Poplar to Meeds, if you go there, isn't bad; it's just long. The first island site on Meeds is a keeper. The portage to Missing Link from Round Lake would be a rocky initiation to the BWCA. " Thanks for your input and suggestions! The trip to Long Island looks nice!! I'm guessing that would be doable (without being rushed) with a 2 nighter? Also, I've always heard Duluth is worth checking out!" It would be a very doable two-nighter. I did that trip 2 years ago with another experienced paddler and a complete novice, who had an endearing habit of falling when exiting the canoe, walking portage trails, etc., and it took us four hours max to gently paddle a three-man canoe to a great site (#562) on a point in the middle of Long Island, with an expansive view to the west. There are a few nice, sandy sites in the far western bay of the lake, which you can get to quicker, but these will have a bit more traffic of paddlers heading to and from Cherokee (which is itself a nice day trip with good fishing along the way).
Grandma L	08/09/2016 11:25AM   Permits require that you enter at the designated entry point on the day for which the permit is issued. You should hurry, decide and get a permit - they will not last long on the reservation site. You can also cancel the permits up to 24hr. b/4 if this doesn't work out. There are Monday permits open for both Moose Lake and Fall Lake on the Ely side. Get the Moose permit and then work with La Tourell Outfitters (800) 365-4531 to get a tow up to the border and out of the motor area. Travel the border to Isle of Pines (Dorothy Molter's ), climb Thunder Point. Loading for our tow at La Tourell's
fsupp	08/09/2016 12:49PM   There is also a permit available for Cross Bay Lake on Tuesday on the Gunfliint side. The portages to Cross Bay and then on to Long Island Lake aren't bad, and there are a lot of very nice sites on Long Island. It's more a northern pike than a walleye area, but you'll also move through some moosey country. Tuscarora outfiters is right at the entry point. They have cabins and bunkhouses available, and a tandem kevlar canoe is only $45/day to rent. If you arrive on Sunday, you could spend Monday with, say, a short day trip from west Bearskin to Duncan to the stairway portage on Rose Lake, which has outstanding views into Canada. The Flour Lake and Trails End campgrounds of tghe Gunflint would also be good options. And have dinner at Trail Center. The members on the site tend to favor the Ely side of the BWCA, but I am in the Gunflint Trail camp (though I've taken many wonderful trips out of Ely in the winter and summer). The drive up the north shore of Lake Superior from Duluth is spectacular, with waterfalls everywhere and 6 state parks along the way to Grand Marais, where you could stop for short hikes. It's a part of the state that's not to be missed, and Duluth is just cool. Also, the portage from Poplar to Meeds, if you go there, isn't bad; it's just long. The first island site on Meeds is a keeper. The portage to Missing Link from Round Lake would be a rocky initiation to the BWCA.
Markley	08/09/2016 02:01PM   quote fsupp: "There is also a permit available for Cross Bay Lake on Tuesday on the Gunfliint side. The portages to Cross Bay and then on to Long Island Lake aren't bad, and there are a lot of very nice sites on Long Island. It's more a northern pike than a walleye area, but you'll also move through some moosey country. Tuscarora outfiters is right at the entry point. They have cabins and bunkhouses available, and a tandem kevlar canoe is only $45/day to rent. If you arrive on Sunday, you could spend Monday with, say, a short day trip from west Bearskin to Duncan to the stairway portage on Rose Lake, which has outstanding views into Canada. The Flour Lake and Trails End campgrounds of tghe Gunflint would also be good options. And have dinner at Trail Center. The members on the site tend to favor the Ely side of the BWCA, but I am in the Gunflint Trail camp (though I've taken many wonderful trips out of Ely in the winter and summer). The drive up the north shore of Lake Superior from Duluth is spectacular, with waterfalls everywhere and 6 state parks along the way to Grand Marais, where you could stop for short hikes. It's a part of the state that's not to be missed, and Duluth is just cool. Also, the portage from Poplar to Meeds, if you go there, isn't bad; it's just long. The first island site on Meeds is a keeper. The portage to Missing Link from Round Lake would be a rocky initiation to the BWCA. " Thanks for your input and suggestions! The trip to Long Island looks nice!! I'm guessing that would be doable (without being rushed) with a 2 nighter? Also, I've always heard Duluth is worth checking out!
ducks	08/09/2016 07:37PM   Cowdoc also mentioned Skipper is open Monday. That is a nice little trip w/ decent solitude. A few years ago my wife and I did a trip entering at Skipper and basecamping on Banadad. We only saw 1 other canoe on day 1 and we saw 2 canoes paddle through Banadad on day 3. On day 4 on our way out we saw those same 2 canoes on Rush. All 3 nights we were the only ones camped on Banadad. This was a mid August trip. It's an area I'd go back to again. Nice skinny lakes and if you'd like a hike for a daytrip the Banadad Ski Trail crosses the portage between Rush and Banadad. If you book Skipper let me know and I can give some more info on the area. Including info that would help you w/ 2 of the portages in the area. I think that Missing Link and Snipe are 2 pretty lakes.
billconner	08/09/2016 07:17AM   quote Markley: "quote billconner: "Marley - to you is solitude seeing almost no one, even across a lake, or something else? " I guess that does need some clarifying:) I'm fine if we are not the only ones on the lake, just don't want to be surrounded (and would rather not be around motor boats). Being more used to western NC where the lakes are nowhere near as numerous, it is difficult to get away from crowds. " Guessed that might be the case. I tend to equate solitude to not seeing anyone for several days. Being out if earshot is not hard and lindylair does indeed offer some practical and great suggestions. As far as your kayaks vs rent a canoe, I'll just note in 20 or so one to two week trips, I've never seen anyone on a sit on top kayak, and very, very few kayaks of the other sort. I think you'd be much more satisfied if you rented a canoe but I could be wrong.