Boundary Waters Quetico Forum :: Group Forum: Boat Builders and Repair :: My first build - a Merlin
|
Author | Message Text | ||
KarlBAndersen1 |
Makes 'em nice and friendly. |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
She's actually farther along that what we see here. I'm finishing up the final coats of varnish at this time. I kept my original spacers I made before I too the hull off the forms. I made three spacers to place between the hull sides that were the exact measurements of the hull on the form. This was so I would always know where things were supposed to be. And, I would know the exact measurements for the thwart and seat screw holes. I made the furniture from birds eye maple. Did a mortise and tenon on the seat frame. |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
Sometimes my photos may be a day or so after the fact. I already have about 1/3 of the canoe stripped, so, I'm pretty committed to what I have started. I am beginning to see that I will have a bit of filling work to do after sanding and before fiberglass. Some long gaps between the bead and cove and such. Not gaps between the strips, but areas where the bead does not directly touch the cove either on the inside or outside of the hull, depending on the in or out curvature. I'm assuming this is to be expected and is part of the game. Reckon I'll deal with that when the time comes. I'm getting things to fit as nicely as I possibly can, so I know I'm at least trying to do my part. |
||
wingnut |
I like the look of stems on a boat and I think they make the bow and stern stronger. |
||
Wables |
quote wingnut: " I built my canoe with stems that the plan did not call for also. I cut the bow and stern forms down 3/4" to make room for the Inner stems then shaped the edges to glue the strips on. I did this on my .38 special as well. |
||
Oisinirish |
|
||
Oisinirish |
|
||
HighPlainsDrifter |
quote KarlBAndersen1: "Yes - it is the NW Merlin. After you cut that Stem mold down (as Wingnut and Wables say), check out the lines of the hull along the keel and to the stems with a fairing stick. That will show you right away if a problem exists. You certainly want a nice smooth flow (no bumps allowed) I assume that you have some kind of book that you are referring to on how to build a cedar strip. One very helpful trick on shaping the rolling bevel on your stems can be found on John Michne's Boat Building Stuff. The idea is to put 60 grit sandpaper on a fairing stick that is long enough to hit the stems and 2 molds back (he says one mold). You will be able to carry the lines of the hull to the stem perfectly. I marked my molds with numbers where each strip went. This allows you to keep your sanding tool at the correct angle. I didn't use scrap strips to guide the sanding as John suggests. shaped enough of the stems as I needed while planked the hull Once you have the rolling bevel on the stem it will be very apparent how the strips will meet and cover the "flat area of the bottom". Do not be in a hurry to saw off your strips as they reach over the stem. Remove just enough wood to give clearance for the strip coming in from the other side. John Michne "Shaping the stems" |
||
HighPlainsDrifter |
About gaps between the planks...... They are not good. Sure you can fill them, but try to avoid them. It is important to get those strips to behave..... adhering to the mold and tight with each other. Do anything you can to get them to do just that. I was not in a rush to get my strips down. After each strip was stapled to the mold, I checked for gaps by pulling down on the newly glued strip. If glue seeped out of the joint or I could detect slop, I reached for the nylon reinforced strapping tape. I used the tape to put the necessary pressure on the new member to get it to tighten up the gap. Use a piece of wood dowel to protect the cove where the tape is pulling. Once you use tape, go take a break and come back after the glue is set............ Sometimes staples will not hold your strip. In that case get out some small nails and nail the strip to the mold. Use a piece of scrap between the nail head and the hull so that the hull does not get chewed up. Both of these techniques are shown in this one picture |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
I already have what I have and now I need to live with it. I've got much better as I have progressed. I will definitely use the ideas offered here. |
||
HighPlainsDrifter |
Building my Merlin |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
I do not have actual "gaps" or spaces between the strips. It's just where I'm coming around the tumblehome tight radius where the bead and cove turn tightly and there is a separation between the lip of the cove and the side of the strip above it. It creates a bit of a "line" of non-contact. And I'm thinking that's on the outside of the curve, which is a little understandable. The part we can not see has contact. I think I will fill these before I even do the first sanding step. But I will admit something that has given me more than one moment of pause - when I see some photos of in-progress, there's glue running all over the place. I don't have all these runs. I might be trying to be a little too tidy and undercutting the amount of glue. And I realize I shouldn't worry about that. Too much glue is worse than not enough. However, I can not go backwards at this time. What's there is there. And this was only an issue for the first 4-5 rows. I have been less careful since that realization. |
||
MHS67 |
|
||
wingnut |
|
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
I made some simple blocks and slotted them to hold a strip and allow me to miter them. I figured 45* would work. So that's what I've got. On the other side of the jig, I made a place to attach miters/scarf joints. Now, in a talk with "tumblehome", which I appreciated, Tom suggested leaving the top strip, which is shown between the gunwales, to create the shear line. Rather than a bunch of strip ends, it would be a continuous piece. I liked that idea. I do not have any full length pieces, so I do have one scarf right in the middle. I thought ahead when making my strips and made four pieces with only coves on the top, and the other edge square. Now, I'm sitting here i the office, so I do not actually recall, but there are either 6 or 8 forms that run in a line before the shear curves upward. During this stretch, the cove needed to remain intact to hold glue. After the strip curves upward toward the bow/stern apex, the cove is no longer needed. In fact, it would be beneficial - as far as my thinking goes, to have more surface area to glue the mitered edge of the mating pieces to when they are added to complete the end sections. So, I lay the strip in the miter jig and marked where the curve began. I used a felt pen and drew a line in the bottom of the cove. I used my belt sanding block and sanded off the cove edges until I could see when I just hit the black line. If there are better ways of doing this, I hope to hear about it. |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
quote wingnut: "It sounds like you'll be able to sand the no contact areas of the strips smooth without any noticeable problem. |
||
Northwoodsman |
|
||
bapabear |
|
||
wingnut |
I can see from your pics what you were concerned with earlier at the #2 form. I take it the canoe was designed with a finer entry point and flared out from there. |
||
tumblehome |
This thread has been a great documentation of building a stripper and I hope it serves as a guide for what it takes to build one for future builders on this forum. Your beautiful and functional canoe is a testament of your artistic talents and skills. It's a great day for a paddle! Tom |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
When I was making strips, I made some with a mating bead and cove, and left one edge square, so I could have a double center keel line and be able to glue up the mitered ends of the strips. I'm going to put the center line in this evening. Wish me luck. |
||
wingnut |
I had lots of glue oozing out from the joints when I built mine. By the time you scrape and sand the hull smooth they'll be just a memory. |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
I've been known to do very long and detailed step-by-step works-in-progress on many of my knives. And those are often viewed by people of varying degrees of experience in knife making. This is a bit different for me since I'm doing that here, but in this instance, this is the first time I've ever built one of these! So everyone bear with me, so I can show at least something to the novice canoe builder and the old-timer alike. I did manage to get something done last night and first thing this morning before I even had my coffee!! Oh, the sacrifices. Anyway, the strips are getting on and they're starting to fight me as I progress around the hull's curvature. You can see that they are no longer straight, but are bending drastically. Also, here is where you'll begin to see why, way back in the beginning, I kept the boards/strips segregated. I am using the color to create accents as I go. In a couple of these pictures, this will be evident. I'm a long way from done, but she's beginning to actually look like the hull of a canoe. I think she's sexy. :) |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
I'm about to begin the football. I'm going to run two center strips as soon as my strips meet on the stem. I'm doing ok for now. I'm a little more relaxed at what I'm doing. I realize this is not fine delicate detail work now. |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
2 months and 2 days in labor. :) She arrived completely in this world at 8:04 PM, 22 September, 2014. She is 15' 11 5/8" long and weighs 53 pounds. Fun. OK - I didn't get done until after dark, so, tomorrow I will get her outside and get some real pictures that more accurately depict her true colors. Then - she gets wet! :) |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
And her name is "Ida". After the lake I grew up fishing as a child into adulthood. She and I just might see the Gunflint Trail in a few days. I hope. |
||
1JimD |
I'm new to the site, and just skimmed through your post. I was impressed by what I saw, and will spend more time reading. Great pics ! You can be very proud of the fine job you did ! Jim |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
The strong back has been braced in all directions, as well. I used the corners for the stem forms so as to keep things square and true. Makes things easy. |
||
tumblehome |
Your stems look real nice! Keep in mind that you might be installing brass stem band over the outer stems when the canoe is done. I've had issues before where I pre-drilled the brass stem band and found out the holes were right on a screws holding the wood stems together so plan ahead. Your boat is a real dream! Tom |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
Is it advisable to do a seal coat of epoxy on the raw cedar before applying the glass? From my understanding, this would help eliminate air/gassing between canoe hull and glass. And, if so, how long would one wait between steps? If I sealed the canoe, do I come back in only a few hours and do the fiberglass? Which brings up another variable: If I want to double up on the glass layers, I would do the football area first. Does this get wetted out by itself? Or WITH the overall layer. If not - and it is done by itself - how long before the overall piece is applied? I'm thinking that if I want a chemical bond between layers of epoxy, I should only wait maybe three hours between layers. And then, do I just wait another three hours or so and do the fill coat so I have a chemical bond from cedar all the way through fill coat? Is that enough questions? |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
I have one really smart guy showing up to guide me through this, and another to help mix epoxy and be a third set of hands. I think I'll be alright. |
||
Oisinirish |
quote tumblehome: " Well now he can't paddle in circles unknowingly in the fog. Kinda takes all the fun out of it don't ya think? LOL. Just kidding. Very sleek and elegant looking. Especially like the color contrasts. |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
Also need to do a little refinement on the stems. After all of that was done, I marked all of the form locations for later reference. I also measured the outside dimension at those points for when I need some temporary bracing for thwarts and my seat. This way I know I'll have the right dimension. They'll get covered up with the gunwales. |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
Looks sweet. |
||
mirth |
|
||
bapabear |
|
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
|
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
I just ignored the knot in the middle and got two off of each side. I went about 5/8 on the inner and 1/2 on the outer. I'll just keep peckin' away at it. |
||
tumblehome |
Did the wood work out OK? I bet you have that in the water in a few days. Remember to take some time to get to know the feel for her. Think of it as a first date. Tom |
||
tumblehome |
This thread has been a great documentation of building a stripper and I hope it serves as a guide for what it takes to build one for future builders on this forum. Your beautiful and functional canoe is a testament of your artistic talents and skills. It's a great day for a paddle! Tom |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
quote bapabear: "Gorgeous! Prior to getting wet does one "christen" it with champagne?" |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
|
||
MacCamper |
Bravo, bravo on your achievement and thank you very much for the adventure you have shared Karl. Your patience and enthusiasm have instilled in me the desire to travel down that trail and perhaps build a craft of my own as well. Ida is a real beauty and her story has soul. Mac |
||
Oisinirish |
|
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
Are you suggesting that there should be permanent screws holding the stems together? If so, they would need to be put in after the stems have been shaped. So, maybe I should read up a little bit before continuing? |
||
tumblehome |
quote KarlBAndersen1: "Tom, in fact, I had thought that I would remove all the screws and allow the epoxy that I've already used, and the upcoming epoxy and fiberglass to hold the stems in. Karl, I re-read your previous post where you mention removing the screws after the stems are epoxied in place. I would go that route. The screws won't be necessary later on. I used to do the same thing. Use screws to get everything together then take them out after the epoxy was cured. -T |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
quote opolka: "How long until the second one? ;)" Not sure. But it will happen. |
||
wingnut |
|
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
Good for me, I've spent my life in cabinet shops and high dollar custom homes, etc. And custom knives! Thinking on my feet and being creative in the moment is not new. I think I'll be alright. Here, my strong back is just built and has since been squared, leveled and trued. MDF acquired and I'm in-progress of cutting out forms. Stem material to be picked up tomorrow. Let's hope she floats. |
||
MHS67 |
|
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
Not much more to go and I can start ripping my cedar and running them through the shaper. |
||
tumblehome |
Put some masking tape over the edges of the forms. It helps to keep glue from the strips from sticking to the forms. It will help when you pull the canoe from the forms. -T |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
|
||
wingnut |
|
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
As well, I got a fair amount of cedar planed and ripped, a few strips planed and the shaper adjusted for the bead edge. I'll see how much footage of strips I have maybe tomorrow. I have a three day archery camp to go to this weekend. Always sumpthin'. |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
I'll make sure I have about 30% more footage of strips than I need before I switch the shaper to the cove bit. I put a pin in the stem end so I don't have to chase it all over the work bench and form when I'm clamping it up. I just numbered them, clamped 'em up and drilled for the pin. Then, as I coated them with epoxy, I just slid them down onto the pin one at a time. Made it very easy to get the clamping started. (We do this a lot in knife making so it was an easy solution for me.) |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
Things began to line up better. This morning I had a few minutes and began shaping the form edges for the flow of the strip curvature. Things improved a bit more. Even though the bow and stern forms were designed for a canoe with no stems, recall I did remove a bit of material so they flush out along the keel line, but left the furthest vertical portion as-is. I thought this was going to be a problem after I discovered the canoe design didn't involve stems. I don't think this will be much of an issue. I think the extra 3/4" of the stems I have made will still work quite nicely and I can proceed. I got all of my strip material ripped to a nice, fat 1/4". Actually about .270" before I run them through the planer. Then bead. Then cove. I will get some strips on shortly. And I think I found some 18' ash for gunwales. I'll get some pictures up as I can. |
||
wingnut |
|
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
If I was to change a setting on the shaper, table saw or planer, I could return to it with little effort. My boards were all planed to .775". I will scarf my joints across the 1/4". And I have an industrial hot-melt glue gun - rather high dollar - that will give me an instant joint that cures in 2 minutes. It is construction grade adhesive. By the time I do a strip on the other side, I can continue. On a badly mitered joint, it was still stronger than the wood and ripped the cedar when I tried to break the joint. Really amazing stuff. |
||
Wables |
quote KarlBAndersen1: "I'm a knife maker. I have a dial caliper in my shirt pocket most of the day and think in thousandths. This is how I do my splices. Perfect results every time! Shooting Board |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
I ran into some mental "blocks" when I was cutting things out and thinking ahead, looking at the plans, etc. and something just didn't seem right. So, I gave them a call. Their plans, which I did not know, are not designed for stems. They just overlap their strips and double/triple the glass. I made a few extra cuts on the stem forms in order to - what I think - accommodate inner and outer stems. I'm still a bit unsure how to go about keeping the inner stems attached to the strips as I near the flat bottom of the boat, but I'll cross that creek when I get to it. I'm doing this assembly and parts creation entirely by myself, having never even been part of a canoe build before. I do have three shops that I'm working out of. I have more room that I need. It's going about as planned. |
||
HighPlainsDrifter |
Are you building the North West Merlin ? I will enjoy watching your build. You have a nice spacious shop. I liked the idea of putting a pin in your stem laminates. Good luck in the build. Keep the pictures coming. |
||
wingnut |
Have you considered going stapeless? When I was getting ready to build I read a comment from a builder who said " It only takes one person to ask you, why does it have all those holes in it? ". |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
And I will look into that book - which I have. No - I am going to use staples. |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
I was thinking that I needed to mortise 3/4" for my outer stem, which would eliminate contact with the strips on the inner stem. So even if I reduced the outer stem to 1/2" wide, that still only leaves 1/8" over lap of the strips onto the inner stem. When you say - "like a rock" - I don't see it. But I will find out in short order. quote HighPlainsDrifter: " |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
I've been away from home for three days at a traditional archery camp. I did alter the stem forms so as to accommodate stems. Something just tells me inner and outer stems are the right idea. Maybe I can refine my ignorance - my blank spot is to understand how the inner stem is supported when all of the staples are pulled.? I guess each strip is glued and stapled. Then the glue holds the inner stem to the strips until the glass and epoxy is applied. Wait - that doesn't seem right, either. If I mortise in the outer stem which is as wide as the inner, does this not leave the inner stem floating from about the curve to when it terminates inside the canoe at the keel line? I realize I'm thinking too far ahead. I just now got back from being away and need to do a a bit of stem shaping and form tweaking before I even attach my first strip. I absolutely guarantee I will be posting up some difficulties in a few days. Thanks for your help. |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
I have no queries on shaping the stems for the strips. My questions are more about after pulling staples and keeping the strip/stem integrity in place until glass lay-up is achieved. quote HighPlainsDrifter: "Karl take a quick run through the photos that I have showing my Merlin build. I have some pictures showing shaping the stems |
||
HighPlainsDrifter |
Karl By the time you get done gluing each strip together and each strip to the inner stem and the outer stem glued to the inner and mortised into the hull strips, the strip/stem integrity will be like a rock....... it ain't going nowhere. |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
I'm anxious to get at those stems. I like the challenge they present. And I'm ready to pull staples. Right. |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
|
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
After I started shaping my form edges, things started falling in place nicely. I'm going to leave the stem forms as-is and proceed. I did make a form "sander". I'm a knife maker, so I have 6' long X 2" wide belts that run on my knife grinders. My belts are zirconia. I cut up a belt and glued some strips to each end of a four foot ash strip left over from my stems. It EATS MDF. From my cabinet shop days, I also have a belt sander belt block that works great. Everybody should have one laying on their bench. I also strung my center line on the forms and got the tops directly on 12" centers. I also understand that I am preaching to the choir for the most part here, but every now and then, a new person joins the choir. So, I'm showing some pictures that may be old hat for some, but good info for neophytes like me. |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
I got it all double planed. First ripped to about.290". Then all planed one side to about .275. Then all planed the other side to .265" final dimension. I also got about 1/3 of it run through the shaper for the cove edge. I will actually be placing strips on - soon. And I have some good color variation that I can use to my advantage. |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
Thanks for the reminder. |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
There will be all types of things I'll need help with later. I'm just doing this an hour here or an hour there. I'm having a blast. quote wingnut: "Great looking shop and It looks like boat building is second nature to you. Keep the pics coming you're progress is amazing. I have a second boat planned but I move much, much slower." |
||
tumblehome |
I'm keeping an eye on this thread as you move along. Glad you're having fun! The strips look very nice. There's something about the look, smell, and feel of a good piece of cedar. Tom |
||
wingnut |
|
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
I hope so, Tom. I will be calling you shortly - I am sure. Up to this point I haven't bothered you much, as I know you're busy. So am I - very. I've been able to figure most of it out on my own. I'm still not sure of a couple things, but I like to figure out solutions to the unknown. It's my method of learning. Too many people just get on the ol' internet and use other people's solutions. quote tumblehome: "Karl, |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
When I made the strips originally, all the strips from one single board were kept together. Each board's strips were segregated so I can pull from an individual pile when I make my scarf joints knowing that I've done all I can for color continuity. I'll show a picture of my miter jig later. It was late last night and I forgot to take one. I also C-clamped a couple 2x6s and made a "tree" for easy access to my strips. I have 2" wide electrical tape for the form edges. Nice and smooth. And I have an old air staple gun that I used to use for putting in soffit. I made a stop so it doesn't set the staple all the way. I'm on a roll now. :) |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
Not a lot of progress when I make knives 10+ hours a day. I am very excited about this build. I love how she's coming together. I find myself just walking along side and riding my hand along her and feeling the flow. Very cool I'm glad I decided to do this. |
||
wingnut |
|
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
Building this canoe was one of the most rewarding things I've ever done. |
||
HighPlainsDrifter |
Looking good |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
(And all the staples are pulled and the outer stern stem is mortised in and ready to epoxy in the morning) |
||
wingnut |
|
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
On convex surfaces, that belt sander block I use with a coarse belt is fantastic. I've used one in my shop history for thirty years. I recommend them highly. I will use a random orbit for final smoothing. quote wingnut: "Let the sanding begin. You have a good tool selection, what is your plan to fair the hull?" |
||
wingnut |
|
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
I got the scraper and the blades and the shipping for less than Jamestown wants just for the scraper. |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
Then drilled the screw holes out a little and filled the holes with 3/16 dowels and glue. |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
I appreciate the way you described it. Thank you. And it makes sense. So, my next question was about the football layer and the full layer. Should I wet out the football layer and then let it tack up - as in the chemical bond - wait - then I end up with the full layer getting all hung up on the tacky football. so should I lay the football - lay the full layer on top of it - and then wet them out at the same time? What would be the most efficient way to lay up the two layers of glass? |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
And - gee - I do have outer stems. Should I build up some bias-cut glass over the outer stems - and, if so, do this after the wet-out coat and before the fill coat? |
||
wingnut |
I would use the biased cut strips over the stems and run them down along the keel far enough to provide some protection from scraping. I had the same problem as HPD putting the strips on. Did not go as smoothly as planned, looked pretty rough at first. But after all the resin was applied it sanded out fairly well. |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
And I contacted them and they assured me it would be shipped in a roll. fiberglass |
||
wingnut |
IMO the hull needs to be dry so the fiberglass will smooth into position. I picked up a tip watching Nick Schade about when to put on your next coat of resin using the chemical bond. He checked his previous coat of resin with a cotton ball. When he pressed the ball against the hull and it was sticky enough to pull fibers out of the cotton ball It was ready for the next coat. If you tried to place the glass on the hull while the seal coat was tacky to take advantage of the chemical bond you'd have a nightmare on your hands. Wrinkles, air pockets, weave separating, scares me to think about it. Maybe you are skilled with fiberglass and could manage it But I would play it safe. |
||
HighPlainsDrifter |
The stems are worth thinking about. On my Ranger I lapped bias cut strips over the stems and onto the keel line area. These strips were laid after the main glass sheet was laid (yes after wet-out and before fill coats). Be prepared for some headaches if you do this. You will have an edge where the bias strips meet the hull. Look at these photos carefully and you will see the edge. It is very difficult to bury that edge and difficult to feather this edge fair to the hull. The only thing I could do was to keep adding fill coats and sanding very carefully to not cut into the cloth. In the end I got it pretty good. I used several strips up the stem and onto the hull. The narrowest were laid first and then buried under a wider strip. If you look at the second picture you can see how far I laid the bias strip onto the hull. These strips do protect the canoe in the hard-hit areas. But I wet foot this canoe and as of yet I have no dings in the reinforced area (but dings elsewhere). In the end, I wonder if the time spent in reinforcement was actually worth the effort. |
||
wingnut |
I cant speak to the quality of the fiberglass you linked. I just don't know. |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
As you guys know, that actually simplifies things. AS far as the stems go, I can see applying the bias cut strips a few hours after wet-out for good bond. Now, after the first fill coat, and the strips are not fully covered, do I just go back every couple hours and keep adding on more epoxy until the weave is gone? Sort of feathering out the epoxy onto the surrounding area as I go? |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
Can I use the regular 205 hardener for the initial seal coat? I use it in my knife business so I already have some on hand. Do most folks roll the top two fill coats? |
||
HighPlainsDrifter |
I think you just talked yourself out of pre-coat. Good decision. I bought my glass from the maker/supplier of the epoxy that I used. Systems III. The glass was 6oz, flat weave, and rolled (insist on that). Also specify that you do not want them to use tape on the glass to secure the roll....... you will have a hell of a time getting tape off the cloth without damaging the weave Invest in a new pair of sewing scissors. Have plenty of grunge containers on hand. Buy a couple of different sized squeegees........ typically you will settle on one that becomes a favorite A Vinegar bath of your tools (when done for the day) stops the chemical reaction. Get help laying the glass and unrolling over your hull Lay your glass on the hull and smooth out the wrinkles with a very soft brush (I used a 5 inch paint brush). It is also good to handle the glass with rubber gloves on....... this will keep the glass clean and protect the weave from a jagged finger nail Get a helper in the room with you. You will be busy keeping on top of application and squeegeeing. It is nice to have a trusted mix person Do not try to fold the glass around the stems........ it will not stay where you want. As you wet the glass toward the stems, you will see where you need to cut. Do not cut before epoxy application. Most important is what WingNut said about ZEN....... stay calm. The glass will behave, but if you start pushing it around, you will get wrinkle........ just keep that wetted edge going toward the stems (I worked from middle out to the stems, alternating side to side to keep the wetted edge |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
I have read well spoken arguments both for and against seal coating. If seal coated, it has to dry and be sanded smooth so you can lay out the cloth. If not sanded completely smooth, discoloration is probable. What can anyone shed light upon regarding this argument: "Back to precoating - Every time the topic is raised on the forums, there are a host of responses and reasons for and against. In an effort to find out the truth, I contacted MAS and asked about precoating. Their reply was that precoating is technically not required until you get up to the heavy weight fiberglass cloth, like 10 or 12 ounce, and that for amateur canoe or kayak building precoating is a matter of personal preference. I personally prefer not to precoat - it costs a coat of epoxy, adds more weight, the fiberglass doesn't really contact the wood, it takes an extra day, and I can still get bubbles (and actually did once). Getting rid of bubbles is discussed later. You will be applying a wet out coat, and three or four fill coats. In order for one coat to chemically bond to the previous coat, the previous coat cannot be fully cured when the next coat is applied. If you precoat, you must wait a sufficient length of time for the epoxy to get hard enough so that the cloth, when it is laid out, will not stick to it, but yet soft enough so that a chemical bond is possible. If the precoat has cured hard, it will not yield a good chemical bond and should be sanded. This is true with any coat - if your fingernail will dent the surface, no sanding is necessary. If it is hard and no dent is seen, break out the sander. But precoats are thin, and sanding can easily go through to the bare wood. If you ignore it and then wet out the glass, you will have a hull with mottled light and dark areas, depending on where you cut through. Recoating the sanded through areas is just more work, more epoxy, more waiting during which time the rest of the job has cured to the sanding point,..... Need any more reasons to forget about precoating?" |
||
tumblehome |
I'm still open to coming to your place to help you. Seal coating a canoe is a baaad move. It does nothing but waste epoxy. Outgassing is not much of a problem on the outside. You eliminate outgassing by not letting your shop get WARMER as the epoxy cures, Start with a warm shop about 70' or 75' and let it drop a few degrees as the day goes. The cooling air will prevent the expanding wood fibers from outgassing. This is more important on the inside since the trapped air can't go out through the outside. You wait about three hours after you have glassed the first layer until the next layer of epoxy is applied. Wait three hours and then add the last layer. As far as one or two layers of glass. I am a fan of two layers of glass on the football but it is not needed unless you are planning on many long rugged trips with the canoe. If you do two layers, you must use thinner glass. Two layers of 6oz glass would make for a lot of weight. It would be strong as hell, though. My 38# Merlin has two layers of glass on the outide. The football piece is 3.25 oz and the main layer is 5oz. Remember, I use West System. And no do not use anything except 207 hardener unless you glass in the winter when there is no humidity. That's a story for another day since it gets technical. Oh, and you should print that photo HPD posted up of his canoe cuz that's how your canoe is going to look too! Tom |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
Overnight I sort of convinced myself to just do a good job on the glass and trash the seal coat. So I'm already on board with that. This canoe will probably never see any really harsh environments. 6oz in and out should probably get me buy. If I see it falling apart from abuse, I now have my strong back and forms!!!! I could build a nicer better one. I'm going to order my glass and epoxy in a day or so and could use your help. I've also figured out just how to repay you. ;) |
||
tumblehome |
It sounds like you're doing everything right. Good to hear! |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
Lucky for me, he's going to come over on Saturday and hold my hand while we get this thing layed up and wetted out. All I have at this point left to do is shape the front outer stem. Did you know they make 36 grit ceramic belts for belt sanders now? That's how I shaped the stem. Anyway, here's how she sits until Saturday AM. |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
Tom came over and guided me through my first glass wet-out and related applications variables. After he got me through that, I did the second coat later in the day with the on-going help of another friend and finally did the final third layer of epoxy myself at about 8:30 pm. Here are a few of the highlights: After some waiting time, a second coat, some fiberglass trimming and a third coat, she wasn't looking too bad. |
||
tumblehome |
I need my patent pending orange juice container back :) The canoe looks great. You did good. Folks, Karl built a very nice hull. The ends are perfectly perpendicular to the forms which is a sign of a well-crafted canoe. I can't wait to see what he does with the trim. Tom |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
quote tumblehome: " |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
Now I can begin working on some furniture. |
||
ILcdr |
Thanks for posting your project. |
||
Oisinirish |
I'd have to bring slippers with me. I don't think I could let my boots touch the inside of that hull. |
||
DeterminedOrange |
Can't wait to see it trimmed! |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
Got my seat frame mortise and tenons done and ready to epoxy together today. Also got my decks fitted and rough shaped. Actually found this at Home depot - it's got a lot of birds eye that you can see here, but will be really nice when done. I gave them a varnish coat on the bottom yesterday and will epoxy them in this morning so I can get the inner gunwale scuppered and epoxied in maybe tonight. |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
Without going into unnecessary details, I put my decks in temporarily and fitted my gunwales. Did a layout of the scuppers where my seat and thwarts will attach correctly. I made a little layout sample to assist in the marking. I decided to route in the scuppers so I made a temporary jig which was just too easy. The epoxied/screwed the decks in permanently. Inner gunwales tomorrow. got the seat frame mortised and screwed and glued tonight so I can get that done soon. I can see the end for the first time. |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
There, I locked my router in my post leg vies and routed all the corners round. Then, I used my belt sander and sanded the gunwale top smooth and flush. I had left the hull about .100" tall so it could be removed easily. Easier to sand down 1/4" cedar than and inch of ash. Then, ran the router down the inner and outer gunwales for nice rounded corners. I have since epoxied the gunwales on and they have one coat of varnish. |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
And I'm done. I'll probably web the seat on Monday night. Then see if this thing floats. |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
Seriously, if you have some vision and some intermediate shop tools - as well as a little space - you can build one of these if you simply take your time. I do think I mentioned at some point that this was my first canoe, but not my first rodeo. I've been building "things" most of my life, so that did help. But nothing I accomplished can not be done by someone of less experience. Correct - the camaraderie here was not only beneficial but supportive and informational during the build. And the hands-on help from Tom Neisen was invaluable when it came time for glass and epoxy lay-up. And it's just fun to have someone help in that anyway. I look forward to your build. Take plenty of pictures and SHARE!!!!!!!!! them. |
||
wingnut |
|
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
I needed to screw it in to be happy about it. I'll remove the screws, drill them to 3/16 and glue some dowel rod in place for shear strength. |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
They both should work well. quote wingnut: " This is the one I found useful. Not sure If It's the same one you have. " |
||
Badgerboy |
|
||
wingnut |
Are you going to use a scarf joint to join your strips? |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
But, I'm about finished with my strips and will soon be putting this thing together. My thoughts - I have 14 forms. At first glance when using a strip to check continuity of form edges, even before leveling and straightening the center line, and shaving the form edges for flow, it seems as if the #2 and #13 forms should be about 3/8" wider on each side. Is this done intentionally so as to create a finer "point" of the canoe? When I run a strip from # 3 to 1 or # 12 to 14, there is a rather significant gap between the form and my curved straight edge. Opinions? |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
Reading earlier on you'll see that these forms were not designed for stems. I only reduced the keel portion of the form to accept stems and flush out with the center line. I did NOT! reduce the front end of the stem form the about 7/8" thickness of my inner stem. If I did that, it would do a lot to minimize or maybe even eliminate that gap. Reckon? |
||
HighPlainsDrifter |
First picture shows that the mortise joint has been cut. You can see that the outer stem will cover the strips and the inner stem. 2nd shows outer glued and screwed into place. 3rd shows the outer after fairing it to my liking. I took a lot of wood off that stem to give it a nice leading edge (maybe too delicate....... but plenty strong) |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
That gives me a better idea, and I am grateful. In reference to my planing out of the strip forms, I'm going to investigate removing more material from my stem form, which I believe is my difficulty. I will have most of my strips cut up this evening and need to get my ducks in a row. I also realize that as I shape my form corners so the strips lay nicely, this will change things a bit some, too. I'm grateful for everyone's willingness to assist. |
||
wingnut |
|
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
I got all the strips beaded tonight and the shaper set up for the cove. I'll have that done sometime Sunday. The forms are about all tweaked for strips and I just need to finish up the inside of the inner stems before I secure those, as well. Here are my 1500 feet of beaded strips. My cove bit in the shaper: And a test fit: |
||
KarlBAndersen1 |
It's nice to have some knife maker tools to use during this, too. I have two variable speed knife grinders that run 2 X 72 belts of all types and they both have an array of contact attachments like small wheels, large wheels and flat platens. Then I got the stems attached and about 75% of the footage coved. I will have everything I need done tomorrow to start stripping. |
||
opolka |
|