Boundary Waters Quetico Forum :: Group Forum: Wilderness Challenges :: Leadership Challenge #8 (Winds and Waves) - UPDATED
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GSP |
They do not hold heat because the water will continue to circulate everytime you move your legs and being soaking wet there will be virtually no heat generated. I would rather be putting wool socks on and with the boots on shore than trying to swim with them. I wore my teva sandals and wool socks for another 9 days on the trip with the lows in 30-40's on most days with rain. Boots that can be laced tight and I mean tight work better, tried this before. Biggest thing is have PFD on tight and if leg straps, have them on and tightened. Mud boots are great for portaging, but could be your demise if going for an unexpected swim. I will never wear them again and will not let anyone in group to wear them, unless they switch at end of portage. |
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PineKnot |
Rich. |
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Beemer01 |
Cotton kills. |
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520eek |
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Windschill |
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rlhedlund |
Let me say this: I wore cotton for all my outdoor adventures for the majority of my life because I felt like I could not afford quality synthetics. Only in the last couple years since getting seriously involved with SAR, I have invested in quality outdoor clothing. The difference in comfort is priceless. Now about the kills part: I have been outdoors for years and have yet to find myself, personally, in a life-threatening situation where cotton would have killed me. I would venture to say that is the case with most, and that is why people, in general, put so little priority on quality outdoor clothing for the couple instances where they would need it. From a SAR viewpoint, it does makes a difference. If cotton does not kill in every situation, it certainly adds to discomfort in many other situations, though certainly, not all. |
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Beemer01 |
Our dunked paddler wearing less than optimal BWCA garb, now finds himself without footgear since he likely had to lose the boots, and wearing clothing that offers little or no insulation. I do hope that they can retrieve the packs, because drying his jeans will be tough in this weather. (assuming they can reach shore) The other paddler in nylon pants and polypro long johns, Goretex and Smartwools will fare better, if for no other reason than that he can get these dry and offering protection much more quickly. BTW, if our dunked paddlers do reach shore, they will be in very rough shape. How do the dry paddlers diagnose Hypothermia and treat this condition in a pirate camp on shore? |
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Beemer01 |
When I began tripping up there in the 1970s, cotton and wool were really about all we had, today there are so many good alternatives synthetics are usually a better choice. Optimal choices are debateable, and are debated elsewhere on this board on a frequent basis :-). Many of us like Goretex jackets, nylon zip-off pants, poly long johns for cold weather, and Smartwool socks. I've recently stopped taking cotton tee shirts up, even in the summer, replacing them with poly tee and long sleeved shirts. The synthetics weigh much less and perform better. I know Smartwool recently began selling a wool/synthetic blend base layer that looks interesting as well. One downside to synthetics is that they do burn and a random spark will create a hole in your garment - a problem not seen with cotton clothing. Wool - is in many regards - very competitive with synthetics. I have worn old woolen dress slacks in cold spring weather and been pretty comfortable. The downside to wool slacks is that they do tear and rip more easily than synthetics... but if they get wet they do offer better insulation than cotton. |
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Beemer01 |
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520eek |
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emptynest56 |
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Koda |
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Windschill |
This route might work. If you see lightening just hold up a 1 iron and keep going. Once at the village you can walk to the ranger center. |
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Georgiaboy |
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GSP |
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Beemer01 |
Be safe. |
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Mad_Angler |
Now, you can use your own defintion of snuggling based on the people involved... |
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woodsandwater |
The crisis looks pretty bleak considering water and air temp being what they are and especially the 3 foot waves and coming thunderstorm. Big fear of capsizing the remaining boat and putting everyone in the water so don't want to risk this. Will be very difficult to keep the upright boat from shooting by those in the water as you ride the wind and waves back to them. If you are the ones in the water, get to your canoe and stay with it and start kicking going with the wind aiming to the shoreline 3/4 miles away. If you are the ones in the other boat try to stay near the downed crew as best you can encouraging them to keep going. At shoreline get them out of the water. Get tent up with your dry gear and bags. Strip down wet crew and them in your dry gear and bags. Get the boats out of the water and secured. Huddle together for warmth. In the morning assess condition of those who were in the water. You have to get out. Quite possible the crew who didn't go in the water will have to paddle out for help as soon as the weather permits. Getting them to closest land riding the wind and waves and out of water as soon as possible would be the most important thing. |
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PineKnot |
Forum newbie here...re "cotton kills", for this scenario is it because once you get on shore, wet cotton will suck heat from your body quicker, or that it takes longer to dry than synthetics, or something else? What synthetics are better in your view? Thx. Rich. |
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Koda |
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bojibob |
This is #8 of the Leadership Challenges. The purpose of these is to get feedback on what you would do under these circumstances. I'm not looking for a "Right Answer" I'm looking to see how the many very knowledgeable people here on BWCA.com would react in a time of decision in Canoe Country. Challenge #8: (Wind & Waves) Situation: You are traveling in a party of 4 (Combined crew weight of 800 lbs) in two rental Old Town Penobscot 17 foot Royalex Canoes (max load weight of 1100-1150 Lbs). You are carrying 4 large packs, 4 smaller personal packs and misc. fishing gear with a total gear weight of approximately 350 lbs split evenly between the two canoes. This is Day 4 of a 14 Day Trip through the BWCA, into the Namakan River as you paddle into Ontario Crown Land. You will be flying back to U.S. via a float plane that you must meet at 2:00 PM on May 19, 2010. You have already paid $1000.00 to the outfitter for this non refundable service. It is a very tight schedule to make your pick up point by Day 14. You have already traveled 3 days through the BWCA after entering the BWCA via Entry Point 16 (Moose/Portage Rivers) and travelling the Moose River into Lake Agnes and now into Lac La Croix (LLC) and you are currently on schedule. Your Current Location: You are currently located at a campsite (Campsite #3) on Coleman Island Lac La Croix (LLC), in the vicinity of “Fish Stake Narrows”. (click map to open and click again to enlarge) Additional Information: The Date is May 10, 2010. The current time is 6:45 AM. Sunset is at 8:35 PM, Twilight lasts until 9:07 PM. The Weather is cool and temps are normally the mid 60s in the day and dipping into the low 40’s at night. Current Temperature is 52 Degrees. Current Winds are from the West at 5-10 MPH. It is a “Red Dawn” morning with high clouds. Water Temperature is 40 Degrees. The forecast for May 10: (**) (Day 4) High of 63, Low of 42 Winds 5-10 MPH from the West. 40% Chance of thunderstorms. The forecast for May 11, 2010 (**) (Day 5) High of 60, Low of 38 Winds 10-15 MPH West 60% Chance of Thunderstorms The forecast for May 12, 2010 (**) (Day 6) High of 55, Low of 36 Winds 15-20 MPH West 70% Chance of Thunderstorms ** Note: This information is from the Weather.com 10-Day forecast that you printed out 5 days ago. (May 5, 2010) The Challenge: You have been planning a trip into Ontario Crown Land which is just west of Quetico. You must check in at the LLC Ranger Station TODAY to secure your Crown Land permits. You are planning on travelling on the Namakan River which you will follow north into Crown Land. (The Namakan River entrance is located near the First Nation Indian Village just west of the Ranger Station on your Map) You have decided to get an early morning start from your Campsite and get on the water by 7:00 AM, hoping to find a calm LLC as you head north across this massive lake to the Ranger Station. One Hour into your route: (Your new location is identified by the Red Flag on the Map) The winds have suddenly increased to a steady 10-15 MPH from the West and are now gusting 20-25 MPH. In addition, a thunderstorm is brewing off to the west as indicated by the ever darkening western skies. Rolling waves are starting to form. Now What: a. Continue on with the RED Route and reasons why. b. Change Course to BLUE Route and reasons why. c. Pull over on a nearby island and wait the weather out, possibly not being able to get the permits and having to change your trip plans. Explain your reasons why you chose to stop. d. Your ideas: (free flow thought) NOTE: There will be ONE Challenge Update on Jan 9, 2010 that will cause you to take additional action. ****************************Update 1*********************************** After rounding the point on the north side of Twentyfour Island. A large series of up to 3 foot “roller waves” have been pounding you broadside for 30 minutes and have swamped/capsized one of your canoes. You see some gear floating in water and you can see one pack is still tied in the capsized canoe. You know that one of the survivors in the water is ill equipped and wearing primarily cotton clothing, an army poncho and heavy rubber boots and has a PFD on and you can see him struggling in the water. The other survivor is well equipped with wool/polypropylene, Gore-Tex Rain Gear and water draining light weight boots. He is also wearing a PFD a. The location of the upright canoe is the Red Flag. (Canoe B) b. The capsized canoe is Red and semi submerged. (Canoe A) c. The Red Circles indicate survivor’s locations in the water. d. The Yellow Circles indicate location of floating equipment. (click map to open and click again to enlarge) Now What? a. Describe your actions if you are in Canoe A. (Capsized Canoe) b. Describe your actions if you are in Canoe B. (Other Canoe) c. Describe how you prepare yourself and equipment (canoes and packs) in advance for this type of environment. Upcoming Challenges: Challenge 9: “Lost in the Q” - A True Story Challenge 10: “Emotional Rescue” A bully causes a crew meltdown |
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campnscrap |
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solotrek |
I would start out taking the blue route but have no problem pulling into safe shelter and waiting it out. The only weather forecast available indicates that it's only going to get worse. Better safe than sorry are words to stay alive by. Before the trip started, we would have talked about the potential of getting windbound and sacrificing the $1000 in favor of safety, so that decision would already have been made. |
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hexnymph |
At twenty four island the group will determine the next step before the larger water crossing. If the waves get too big we’ll probably stop trolling lest we have to land a fish. I trust weather reports beyond 3 days of current conditions very little. 10-15mph winds are our specialty :) Hex |
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drnatus |
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Beemer01 |
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Beemer01 |
All parties had RABCs All parties wore PFDs One spare paddle for the two canoes All packs properly waterproofed with Contractor bag liners and BDBs securing the tops. |
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Koda |
Second impression: paddling abeam is the most stable, but it also requires the most skill to maintain balance. Conclusion for today: take the blue route to use islands for shelter and quarter into the waves instead of taking them abeam. If the group sticks to its plan, its focus needs to be on maximizing distance while not taking unreasonable risks. Discussion among the group should include forming an alternate plan that involves losing the $1,000 already paid for the flight out. Lives are more important than money and the group needs to form a consensus around whatever they decide to do. |
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Windschill |
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Beemer01 |
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Windschill |
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butthead |
[edit wrote west, mean east] butthead |
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PineKnot |
Been on this area of LLC in heavy winds. Early May would definitely dictate playing it as safe as possible....wouldn't want to get caught in the big water of red or blue routes. Since its still early in the morning and if waves aren't super huge yet, I'd hug the shoreline and head west and then north to the east side of 27 Island...then I'd peek around the edge to see the size of the waves between us and the ranger station...unless the winds were really howling, we should be able to safely make it quartering the waves to the NE before the thunderstorms hit... When I finally got to the ranger station, I'd need a drink, pick up the permits, bitch about the lousy weather (in any order you want) and then continue on... |
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Koda |
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rlhedlund |
Take care to plan layover days ahead of time. Now we'll have to plan to revise our trip mid-course and get word to outfitter from the ranger station???? Is that an option? |
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uigreyjay |
following close to shore, using land to stay out of the wind.if the wind is westerly, the bay sw of twentyseven island should be somewhat protected. with the old towns weighed down they should be very seaworthy if the operators with the paddles know what they are doing. head to twentyseven island. plenty of campsites along the way to pull into. once on the river you can cruise. |
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Beemer01 |
Suggested read for Wilderness Challenge readers who would like to be prepared for - not capsized - by this scenario - Paddling.net link scroll down for paddling in a beam sea techniques and tips |
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andym |
Step 2- note to self to insist on more spare paddles in the future. I once had to demand that an outfitter give us a spare per canoe. We personally carry two paddles per person: wood straight and carbon bent so we have lots of spares. Step 3 - stay relaxed, use safe routes, stay off the water as needed to be safe. Don't sweat the schedule. From experience, outfitters know that stuff happens and will be well aware of the weather, and will adjust as needed. I do like the idea of trying to send them a message from the ranger station. Don't know what to think about the permit issues. Sort ofthink there needs to be a way to deal with that given reality and safety. |
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GSP |
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Beemer01 |
However our paddling party was ignorant of this salient fact and thought they had to get to the Ranger's station that day. Possibly a fatal mistake? |
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520eek |
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Beemer01 |
Note - Surface water temps in our scenario were 40 degrees, certainly a few degrees colder a few feet down. (there's a reason that this Spring season is sometimes called the 'killing season' - balmy spring paddling weather and icy cold water..... a potentially dangerous situation) According to The United States Search and Rescue Task Force - when immersed in water from 32.5 - 40 degrees (F) the party in the water will be unconscious in 15 - 30 minutes, maximum survival time is 30-90 minutes. US Search and Rescue Task Force White Paper on cold water survival . Moderator's note - in just a few minutes the motor skills of the person in the water will be significantly degraded - even speaking will be difficult. Let's hope our party makes the right decisions...... |
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brerud |
Logic; 1. The reason I would try and get west first is to reduce the height of water that I need to cross - the waves will get bigger and bigger the further east they go so trying to minimize the height of the waves I choose paddling west first. 2. With the forecast given, I assume that the thunderstorm that was predicted to be maybe 2 days long has advanced its approach and may have strengthened (also may be passing through quicker)- making me wait to make my crossing a while longer. If the winds have suddenly picked up, the worst might be here already and maybe by the time I get to the crossing point, the weather will have stabilized and won't be as unpredictable. I just don't want to start an open water crossing right away after the winds just picked up. I am not going to outrun a storm. Either way - if it feels like it is getting risky we put ashore and wait it out. There is nothing else you can do once you feel at risk. Some people will feel at risk long before others. |
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520eek |
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GSP |
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Mad_Angler |
Water is WAY too cold. Stop on the island and wait it out. You can always drop south if needed. If there is a break in the weather, you can continue on. You could also try to look for others ways to cross the big lake.... |
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Mad_Angler |
No real change. Water is too cold to take chances. I would study the map and see if there was a safer way to make it across.. |
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andym |
One canoe rescue is a bit tougher. With luck and strength you can flip it out of the water from underneath. Haven't tried that for years. We tend to have two canoes together. |
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Jayhawk |
I would place my second most(best)experienced paddler in the front with the most experienced in the rear -- with the extra paddle. Cats paws between the islands should give you an indication of the upcoming open water run. If anyone is uneasy before twenty four island it's time to turn around. White caps & rollers from the gust front of what appears to be an approaching storm would have me finding a west shore line along the island chain south of twenty four. Give the storm some time to pass before making the cross. Hydrate yourself, have a snack, fill your water bottles & check your cargo before making your quartering run to Indian island. The saga continues at the Ranger station. Get an update on the forecast meet with the group & determine if the remaining quest is worth it. Great description of the event scenario but I think we all have a feeling for various conditions. My greatest fear is a type A leader bullying the group into a bad idea. |
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andym |
Rescue canoe should get the people to the capsized canoe if necessary, right the canoe and get the people back into it. Need to detach that pack and either put it in the rescue canoe or try to keep it from floating away. Once back in the canoe get to dry land for dry clothes, warmth, shelter. Look to the west for the lost packs once you have gotten people safe. The real gotcha is that conditions that make you swamp are also hard to rescue in and you could swamp again or swamp the rescue boat. The saying in kayaking is not to go out in waters you can't do a rescue in. It is not enough to think you can paddle through it but can you deal with a capsize. While doing all of this comtemplate a trip to smaller lakes with smarter people for next year. |
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Koda |
>a. Describe your actions if you are in Canoe A. (Capsized Canoe) I swim to the capsized canoe and hold on, and encourage the other capsizee to do likewise. If possible we try a Capistrano flip to get the boat afloat so it will drift downwind faster. Hang on to the boat no matter what. >b. Describe your actions if you are in Canoe B. (Other Canoe) Wind-ferry across to the capsized boat. Assess the condition of the people in the water. With high winds, a boat-over-boat rescue may not be possible, so I'd be thinking about at least getting the dumped boat upright and maybe lashing them together (may not be possible due to turbulence). Forget about the gear; it will wash up. It isn't possible to transfer gear between boats, and the people in the water may be in no condition to drag themselves up into a boat, but I'd try that (assuming the dumped boat can be righted). Next step is to drift to the bay north of Indian Narrows, where the group can find shelter. Given the winds, the drift will take about 15-20 minutes, so the immediate task is to keep the swimmers alive. >c. Describe how you prepare yourself and equipment (canoes and packs) in advance for this type of environment. The 2nd most important thing is spray skirts with openings that can be closed sungly around the paddlers. Most important is to have a Plan B to avoid this situation. |
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Mad_Angler |
A (in the upright canoe): Paddle back to survivors. Get them in the canoe if possible. More likely, give them a rope and drag them to shore. Once on shore, treat for hypothermia (dry clothes, sleeping bags, warm drink) Once stabilized, look for gear to wash up on shore. B. (in swamped canoe): Get attention of upright canoe. Try to get to other guy and stay together. Get to canoe or floating gear. Try to get canoe upright if possible. Try to tie off to canoe so that I don't sink when I go unconcsious. Start to work towards downwind shore. C. (how to prepare). in order of importance: ALWAYS wear a pfd. ALWAYS wear a pfd. ALWAYS wear a pfd. Don't take unnecessary risks Have packs waterproofed Have clothes and sleeping bags in waterproof bags Have a whistle on my person to signal other folks Have basic survival gear in the PFD pockets so that I can survive if I get washed on shore with nothing but my PFD Secure packs to the canoe |
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PineKnot |
a. Capsized Canoe. Kick off the rubber boots if you can. Try and come together. Neither of you has much time before you're limbs stop working. b. Upright canoe. Get to the other guys asap. With 3 foot rollers, you won't be able to do much besides keep from capsizing yourself. Would throw out a tow rope and begin paddling them to shore by heading SE to quarter the rollers. Wouldn't even try to retrieve any floating debris or the canoe given the wind and waves unless it floated next to the canoes...worry about that later. Should have enough extra clothing to get a fire started and treat the hypothermia. When the wind eventually dies, maybe search for the other canoe/gear and then go home. c. At least everyone was wearing their PFDs. I always untie my boots/shoes in rough water (just in case). Also lay things as low as possible in the canoe and tie/strap down anything I don't want to lose (just in case). |
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Mad_Angler |
They will hold in a little bit of heat. Some folks say that they will pull you under the water but that doesn't seem likely. They will be full of water. But they will weigh exactly the same as the surrounding water. They will neither sink nor float. Now, maybe you're thinking that you would have better use of your legs and then you could swim better. That may be true. Personally, I'd rather hold in a little bit more heat and have the boots if/when I make it to shore... |
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Basspro69 |
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Jayhawk |
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Mad_Angler |
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brerud |
Upright canoe - I try and make a u-turn into the waves and go back to assist. I would think about getting out whatever rope I had available so that I didn't have to paddle right next to them at first - they might try to grab onto the canoe and we might all end up in the 40 degree water. If they are in the canoe by the time we get there - we throw them the rope and try to pull them faster to shore so we can begin to warm up. If they are not in the canoe yet, I would try to assist them into their canoe so we can pull them to shore faster. At no point am I going to feel comfortable trying to pull the 2 in the water into my boat. Precautions - don't paddle in 3 fot rollers, pull into safety as soon as the waves get to the point where I think they are not safe anymore. Tie all of my gear into my canoe in rougher water. All packs are waterproofed to make sure that if I did dump; all my gear is dry for my use when I make it to shore and also to trap air into my pack so it will float longer and more visibly for retreival. |
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GSP |
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Spartan2 |
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Voyageur |
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oldnewbie |
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Koda |
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bojibob |
Before you read this excerpt on treating hypothermia........ Anwser this question: How many of you have a quality thermometer in your aid kit? Hypothermia Treatment by George Miller A NatureSkills.com exclusive. Article by George Miller. Hypothermia is a very survivable medical condition with proper treatment. The hypothermia treatment and procedures described in this article are simply first aid procedures and should be viewed as recommended as self-rescue or emergency procedures to follow until professional aid becomes available. Under no circumstances should these descriptions be used as substitutes for proper medical treatment. If the body temperature is between 90 degrees F. and 96 degrees F. a full recovery is almost completely assured. From 80 degrees F. to 89.9 degrees F. a recovery is quite possible with proper medical treatment but there may be some long-term effects. With a body temperature below 80 degrees F., recovery is possible but rare, and medical complications are all but assured. One of the most important rules of hypothermia treatment, no one is dead until they are warm and dead. Allow medical authorities to determine death in all cases. When treating a victim of hypothermia all efforts should be made to sustain life until they have been properly warmed by at medical facility. Hypothermia treatment is simple, but the proper treatment needs to be administered during different phases of the medical condition. Mild Hypothermia treatment This is the most common form of hypothermia and one we have all suffered from at one time or another. It is the easiest treated, and the easiest to prevent. Treat mild hypothermia by getting into a warm and dry environment. Windy conditions and wet clothes cause the body to lose heat. Seek shelter from wind and weather Insulate from ground – pine branches, leaves, moss, anything to provide insulation will work. Change wet clothing for windproof, waterproof gear Add heat – if safe, start a fire Increase exercise, if possible Get into a pre-warmed sleeping bag or blankets Drink hot drinks, followed by candy or other high-sugar foods Apply heat to neck, armpits and groin Remember, victims of mild to moderate hypothermia may be suffering from impaired judgment and not be making rational decisions. They might be more prone to accidents. If you are a victim of mild to moderate hypothermia, be extra cautious! Don’t make a bad situation worse! Moderate Hypothermia treatment When a person has moderate hypothermia, in addition to the above listed items, get the person bundled up and out of the cold, covering the neck and head to minimize additional heat loss through the head. Sudden movement and physical activity should be avoided. Rough handling of these victims may cause deadly heart rhythms. You can apply warm bottles of water, or warm rocks to the armpits and groin area (comfortably warm when touched by a hand flat on the stone and held in place). Fully conscious victims can sip lukewarm sweetened, non-alcoholic fluids. If their condition is clearly improving then more fluids and warmth can be administered. Medical attention should be sought out, even if a full field recovery is achieved. Severe Hypothermia treatment This is an extreme medical emergency and a high priority should be placed on summoning a rescue team immediately to transport the victim to a medical facility as rapidly as possible. Maintain the body temperature of victims of severe hypothermia. Improper warming can create a condition called metabolic acidosis that can cause shock and heart failure. Warming should only be preformed in these states by a medical facility. The critical thing when a person has severe hypothermia is to be gentle with them. Sudden or rough movements, forcing them to move or walk can pull very cold blood from the extremities into the warmer core that can cause shock. You need to be gentle and supportive. Rubbing the skin, moving of the joints should be avoided. This causes more harm than good. In severe hypothermia, the best hypothermia treatment is best for three people to get under a pile of blankets or in a sleeping bag. Skin on skin contact of the torso works best with a person on each side of the victim. You should ignore their pleas to be left alone or allowed to go to sleep, but be gentle with them. You should not administer fluids or make any other attempts to increase body temperature. Maintaining temperature and preventing further loss is the most important thing. If a person becomes unconscious from hypothermia monitor their breathing and pulse carefully. Summon an Emergency Response Team. If you can detect a faint pulse do not do CPR to support their heart. Only start rescue breathing, chest compressions or full CPR if you cannot detect any breathing, any pulse or both. Check frequently to see if they start breathing on their own, even if it is shallow, the same for a pulse. Administering CPR to someone, even someone with a slight pulse can cause his or her heart to stop. Remember, make all efforts to keep them alive until help arrives, they have been warmed and declared dead. People have recovered in morgues from hypothermia and have had profoundly low body temperatures and still recover. Never give up hope with a hypothermia victim that does not have any other serious medical complications (like severe injuries from a fall or extreme altitude sickness). Now you see why it is so vital to know hypothermia treatment. END OF ARTICLE: Final thought: Would you be able to determine the medical steps needed without the thermometer? |
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Spartan2 |
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Koda |
quote bojibob: "Would you be able to determine the medical steps needed without the thermometer?" No. Although this article is very informative, it wouldn't help answer your question because the thermal criteria for the various phases of hypothermia aren't given. Is it even possible to determine which phase by taking the person's temperature? |
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andym |
Sort of glad we go end of August and beginning of Sept when the water is warmer because we like to go swimming. |
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bojibob |
quote Koda: "quote bojibob: "Would you be able to determine the medical steps needed without the thermometer?" I may have been reading between the lines, but this was my take: MILD: If the body temperature is between 90 degrees F. and 96 degrees F. a full recovery is almost completely assured. MODERATE: From 80 degrees F. to 89.9 degrees F. a recovery is quite possible with proper medical treatment but there may be some long-term effects. SEVERE: With a body temperature below 80 degrees F., recovery is possible but rare, and medical complications are all but assured. I think the key element IS the body temperature. Maybe our resident BWCA Doctors can weigh in? I know of at least 2 that are a member of this Group. |
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andym |
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andym |
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Mad_Angler |
Isn't the only option to pretend every case is mild and try to slowly warm the person? You don't have the option of gently getting the person real medical treatment any time soon... |
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Mad_Angler |
Is a thermometer really practical? In the woods, you don't have fancy scanners like an ER. I doubt if oral would work because the guys teeth will be chattering to badly. I don't want to try rectal. Under the armpit wont work if the guys has been in the water. How would you even get an accurate temperature in a real situation? |
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Spartan2 |
I didn't know any of this about the severe hypothermia and what NOT to do, so it was an eye-opener. Scary. |
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Mad_Angler |
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andym |
quote Mad_Angler: "For both mild and moderate, wouldn't snuggling in a sleeping bag together still be best option?" Well, for mild it says to increase exercise if possible. So, I guess it depends on who you are getting into the sleeping bag with and what you mean by snuggling. |