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ZaraSp00k	02/23/2014 04:10PM   quote solotrip: " your safety plan and your contingency should situations arise.... make sure you have a plan in place to deal with situations that may arise.... " I'm going to gave to disagree with Harlan, when I travel these types of roads there is no point in having a contingency plan, you will be at the mercy of whomever happens to come along, and it could be a long time. The ONLY contingency plan to have is to not get into trouble in the first place. Rule #1 is to slow down. No, you are still going too fast, go half as fast as you think is safe, that should be about right, then go even slower. There is a reason very few of us have pictures, on these roads 100% of your attention should be on the driving, anything less invites trouble. I have some video at night, and a couple pics, here is one, I'd apologize for the quality, but it pretty much describes what you'll see with your eyes. PS: there is no advantage in traveling during the day IMO, there is no business, at night the advantage is you can see someone coming long before they are there, well, enough to give you a warning anyway. Many hills and corners you cannot see what is coming over the other side. If two people meet in this situation, it could be trouble.
McVacek	02/09/2014 05:45PM   We have taken a shuttle out of Leano and it was well worth it. Things to consider beyond "rough roads" are that any issues with your car (flat tires, won't start, etc) wouldn't be much fun if you are having to wait for help or seek help. Just a thought. Yes, it adds to the expense of your trip, but we think it is worth every penny. And the good company on the ride in/out.
jcavenagh	02/10/2014 02:28PM   Can one drive to Johnson Lake and park there?
ECpizza	02/20/2014 10:38PM   Always ramble Harlan, you are the expert, bias or no. The kind of guy I am... Well, I'm a do it yourselfer. There are 2 things so far I do not do... Repair refridgeration and repair cars, but I do both occasionally. I'm tapping trees this spring... Some I do for fun, but much I do because I just hate paying someone to do what I can do myself. So, I gotta convince myself.
OldGreyGoose	02/08/2014 09:35PM   amhacker22 and all: yes, continuing updates would be nice. --Goose
jcavenagh	02/12/2014 04:03PM   Having trouble keeping my mind on work today...so I went to Make A Map site ON MNR. Mapped out a few routes from Johnson thru Glenn to Mexican Hat to Amber or Johnson thru Glenn to Mexican Hat to Burnt Rock to Jake and back... 7 days with a couple fishing layovers
Marten	02/12/2014 05:38PM   I have felt for a long time that the central portions of WCPP are under appreciated. With Red Lake Outfitter's boat shuttle to Douglas or bumping your way by car to Johnson you can access all of the park. The new "Minjim", our pet name for the recently opened route from Indian House to Royd, makes for more loops in the area. Two days travel from these central entry points would put a lot of groups in the Indian House or western Glenn area.
gnegard	02/12/2014 10:56PM   Martin Did you clear the Minjim route last year after the blowdown? I've been thinking of trying that again this year but last I heard it was pretty blocked??
jcavenagh	06/27/2014 11:08AM   Andy & I decided a few weeks back to take the water shuttle...I guess we decided right.
solotrip	06/27/2014 02:00PM   Has been fixed now. We have just sent one of our drivers up to Leano to pickup some paddlers and will report on conditions once they return
Marten	06/27/2014 07:44AM   Heads up folks. This makes it sound like the blacktop portion south of Red Lake washed out. Red Lake Outfitters has a boat shuttle to the Douglas Lake portage that will put your trips back on track. WCPP road report
nctry	02/10/2014 05:55PM   quote jcavenagh: "Can one drive to Johnson Lake and park there?" That has a parking lot and I've been to that one twice. Just can't camp there or at any of the EP's that I know of.
SunCatcher	02/07/2014 08:15PM   You need a CHEVY Silverado "Like a Rock" :) I have taken my 1/2 ton pickup in and it did just fine, you will be FINE in your JEEP. Just take it easy. The first few miles is like any old gravel road, once you get to the old "logging section" of the road it is ruff, and not the best. The key is don't go to fast and you will be fine. It is also narrow as hell in a few places, so another good reason to go slow. I do not think I would do it in a regular car myself, but a 4 wheel drive SUV or pickup will be fine in my book. SunCatcher
ZaraSp00k	02/08/2014 11:39AM   probably the other thing to consider is age of the vehicle, if it's new (whatever new is to you), I would prefer not to take it on these roads, on the other hand, if it's older it may not be reliable enough, if you are the type of guy who thinks a credit card/cell phone are the first forms of emergency preparedness you should probably use them to call an outfitter to take you in, because those things are worthless if you have a problem on these roads
amhacker22	02/08/2014 01:22PM   I'll tell you what. How about I drive up there in September and get back to everyone. Sound good? I'm just here to help!
Marten	02/13/2014 09:20AM   Last fall the park crew worked on the "Minjim." There are a few soft spots that they hope to find fixes for. That is why the route is in gray on the new map, it is considered incomplete. The main thing is that they did go in and clear the portages that we have been using for a few years. After the "snowdown" it would not have been enjoyable to travel the route. You will be encouraged to get the latest info on this route. I hope to use the "Minjim" in late May and will be able share all the info when I return.
solotrip	02/20/2014 01:41PM   Looks like there has been a lot of good discussion here, and personal accounts of what the road is like. I just wanted to add some thoughts of my own as every year it seems we meet paddlers up here that are "surprised" by road conditions and have a huge bill waiting for them from the repair shop. It's also important to note ( I think ), that we always hear the "good" from those that made the trip in without issue, but nobody ever hears the bad.....and trust me, there is a lot of bad! Also, yes I realize my opinion is biased, but heck, my bias is based on years or experience and hundreds of shuttles. For starters, I think it's important to note that virtually everyone that goes in on their own drives a full frame, full size truck. Yes there are the odd smaller vehicle that make it through and you may see them at Leano but it is not something I'd ever recommend. If you called the park office I'm sure they agree. Second, the park office / officials have nothing to do with helping you out if something happens out there. It's a lot different than other park systems in that regard. In fact, in 3 years I've only ever seen a park office vehicle on the road 2 times and we're on there every day. These are decommissioned logging roads with no maintenance so if something happens out there, you are on your own. In the end, it usually gets put on our shoulders to get disabled vehicles out and while we're always willing to help, we may not be able to do it right away and it will cost a lot more than a shuttle. It should also be noted that all our shuttles vehicles and drivers are equipped with the necessary emergency gear, chainsaw and satellite phones. Should we encounter trouble, we call back to the shop and get another vehicle on the road....in essence, we keep your trip moving and deal with the equipment later. Cell phone reception ends once you turn off to Suffel Lake road so if you're heading to Leano which is 76 KM away, taking it easy is crucial as there is nobody out there to help you and no way for you to call. For each of the past 3 summers we have witnessed paddlers "hiking out" from various spots on the road after their vehicle was disabled...while they were in good spirits, they likely would have preferred to be paddling, not walking. It's also important to understand that AAA or any other tow service out there WILL NOT come and get you even once you get help. Again, roads are decommissioned and they do not travel them. We end up having to do this work ourselves with our float and depending on where a breakdown occurs, this can mean up to 2 days on the road. For those that have only 7 days to complete a trip, this is basically a trip ender or at the very least, an expensive repair bill. While discussions like these are important, it's crucial to make sure you are understanding where the park access points are in relation to the town of Red Lake, what those loggings roads look like, their condition, your safety plan and your contingency should situations arise. More times than not paddlers that go in and break down are pissed because they just assumed they'd "be ok", and the road "can't be that bad" I also thought it'd be good to list the most common problems we've seen out there. 1: Torn out sidewall / flat tire (car tires are the worst) 2: Oil pan ripped off 3: Leaf spring broken 4: Front axle broken 5: Front end buried while attempting low level crossing Bottom line: NONE of the park access points are located along a paved road and none will have cell reception in case you get into trouble. Everyone has a different view of what "bad roads" are and in the end if you do go in on your own, make sure you have a plan in place to deal with situations that may arise. Thanks for tolerating my ramblings ! Harlan
jcavenagh	02/13/2014 12:02PM   I should be more specific... What condition is the road in if we drive to Johnson Lake? I was under the impression that the bad parts were closer to Leano, but now I am wondering?? Any help form those who've been through there would be greatly appreciated. Especially, where are the potential washout spots in relation to Johnson Lake parking and Red Lake?
gnegard	02/06/2014 10:13PM   I was just typing my reply and lost everything, so I'm going to start over. I was on the road twice this past summer. Onnie Lk., in July, and all the way to Leano the end of September. I found no problems. The key is to go slow when you need to, and be careful. You don't want to beat your vehicle to death. I drive a F-150, and did not need to put it into 4WD at any point. Actually, I go fishing with my boat and trailer, north of Ignace, and the road is much worse. It actually turns into a snowmobile trail after 30km, with lots of rocks and deep groves. At one point, we dip down, and go below a lake level, that is being held back by a beaver dam. When that goes, we'll have to figure out something else. When the trail ends, we are at the lake, and then back the boat in and camp on an island or two. My point is, if you're careful, go slow and don't beat your vehicle you shouldn't have any problem. It's not a highway, so I feel the road is getting a bad rap. Take a saw and axe, in case a tree has blown over, and there should be no issues. Once you get there, you'll find the extra effort was worth every bit. Good Luck
scot320	02/07/2014 07:52AM   Like everybody said...go slow. We went to Leano in 2012 with a Toyota Highlander and had no issues...lots of SUV's and trucks make the trip. Scot
Merlin	02/07/2014 03:57PM   quote ZaraSp00k: "like the disclaimer says: your mileage may vary I have driven ... a 2WD RAV4 ... " I'm sorry.
Marten	02/14/2014 06:59PM   When we saw this they were putting new gravel on quite a long stretch of the road leading out to the parking spot for the Black Bear Lodge. After that it was back to a rough and rocky road.
scot320	02/14/2014 06:28PM   Was that the spot where half the road was a huge crater with snow fence around it.
ECpizza	02/14/2014 10:18PM   We were 2, now maybe 3, possibly 4 in the end. I drive "minimum Maintenance" roads enough, but always in civilization. I've experienced both flat tire and dead battery coming out of the BWCA.
gnegard	02/20/2014 03:44PM   Harlan, Very good points and I'd like to thank you. I've been a lucky person, as I've traveled to Leano many times, without incident, but I also realize that it could happen anytime. Having the shuttle available is a comforting thought, and I'll probably use it in the future. At least at some point in the future. Above, all, it's important to have a good reliable vehicle, well maintained, and most important to take it easy. Going around curves too fast would be a accident waiting to happen, or even possibly hitting a moose. Greg
ECpizza	02/05/2014 10:08PM   I'm going in Leano this summer, and reading reports it varies between "be careful, but I didn't see any big problems" to "only an Idiot would drive on this terrible road." And yet pictures of the parking lot often have a car in the shot. So is it only a dumb person would drive on this road, Or is driving it in my Jeep Patriot (or my "city Jeep") mean just don't do anything dumb?
Marten	02/06/2014 08:02AM   The road is getting rougher all the time.I agree with all that has been warned about and will add a caution on light duty tires. The rocks are big enough and sharp enough to slice up your sidewalls. They are a very vulnerable part of a tire but never a problem on paved roads. I advise using a shuttle with the added advantage that you can then come out at Onnie, Johnson or Red Lake Outfitters boat shuttle from Douglas.
FOG51	02/06/2014 01:52AM   We were into LeAnno last Aug, and had no problem driving my 4 wheel drive truck in [never out of 2 WD]. We did have some "dragging" on the trailer however, tore the wiring loose from the frame, good old duct tape solved that problem in short order. My trailer has a 3 ft tailgate, I think according to MN law anything hanging out over 4 ft needs to be flagged and have a red light on it when pulled at night, with the tailgate down I didn't need the red light, I had flags on all the canoes for general safety anyway. Just to let you know [we found out at the border] it's illegal to haul passengers in the back of a pickup truck, even with a topper on, we may or may not have made the rest of the trip with 2 people in the back end [just sitting very low]. The road was dry but fairly rough but living in Iowa on a farm has taught me how to handle rough roads, I'm thinking in the spring those areas were the smallcreeks cross the road could be intresting. There was 7 of us that went so a shuttle would have been big bucks. FRED
Bogwalker	02/06/2014 06:15AM   I drove to the Leano entry point twice over the past 4 years. Both times in my E-350 van with high ground clearance but it is not 4 wheel drive. I made it both times. In 2011 the road condition over all was worse but they had not removed the 9 culverts yet so there was only one water crossing where the beaver dam had blocked a stream right by the road. In 2012 the road was better (especially before you got to Onnie Lake EP) in some places but the approaches to the removed culvert sections were dicey and we were fortunate that it had been dry before hand so there was never more then 3 or 4 inches of water running across the road where the culverts had been removed. There were a few sections where the road had washed away along one side and created a much narrower surface but passable. Only issues I had were some wheel slippage on a couple steep uphills. I agree with DD in that it will depend on when you go as what the condition of the road will be. The logging companies really only maintain the road when they need to and then only to the condition that will work for their vehicles. There are a couple of resorts between Red Lake and Onnie EP and I believe they try to keep that section in a little better shape. After Onnie EP it is all logging company maintained. Can you make it in your Patriot? Probably, but if you loose an oil pan, get stuck or have some other issue there is no cell phone service and the charge to get a tow truck out is steep. A couple of comments to consider.....to get to Leano EP it is 1.5 to 2 hours of teeth rattling and bouncing in any vehicle and of course the same distance and time going back to Red Lake. Be sure to have plenty of fuel when you leave Red lake. You probably do not need to worry about fuel being siphoned, but a locking gas cap is cheap insurance. Be sure to have a good, fully inflated spare tire and make sure you have your jack along. Make sure you have NO food, food wrappers or food smells that will be remain in your vehicle when you head in as there have been bear problems at the Entry Points. There is no trash receptacle at the EP so get rid of this stuff in Red Lake before you start down the road. Consider having a battery booster along in case you get out and you vehicle won't start-remember no cell service to contact a garage for help and it could be a while before anyone stops by. After the culverts came out and we survived the trip again, the paddlers that I go with all decided that a shuttle, fly in or now the tow across Red Lake are the only options for us. This year we will fly in with Viking and get towed out by Red Lake outfitters from Trout Bay. Our vehicle will stay in Red Lake. If you take the proper precautions and take your time you can do it-you may think the wear and tear on your vehicle was not worth it after you get back.
jcavenagh	02/06/2014 08:51AM   I've never driven that road. But I have talked to Harlan about it. He is very reluctant to drive out unless he has his vehicle jacked up high. Given the cost of the shuttle versus the cost of towing and repair if you meet bad luck I suggest you come out way ahead taking the shuttle.
ECpizza	02/06/2014 01:05PM   nctry, looking it up, I think your F350 has nearly the same ground clearance as my Jeep (8.1 and 8.2 inches). If only my wife allowed me to get the "trail rated"... As a business owner, I have some idea what goes into pricing. I don't argue with that, a business sets a price, and as a Customer I decide what I am willing to pay. And it's not like those guys don't do enough to deserve a fair profit from their labor. However... the Shuttle alone is more that I typically spend for a week in the BWCA. Now that we decided on a route, we may need to look again for a more accessible EP. Or I need to stop being such a granny about all this...
dentondoc	02/06/2014 01:06AM   It is really a function of the date on which these reports are based. A few years back, the roads were a bit rough, but they were being maintained by the logging company that was working that area. Going into the Leano EP in 2010, we actually met vehicles pulling motor boats on trailers. However, in more recent years, the logging company has abandoned the area and road maintenance, making the trek to Leano a more iffy proposition. Long story short, I'd listen to the advise of the locals (park staff and outfitters) as to the road conditions. Beaver activity and a rutty road can make life quite difficult ... in any case, it is a reasonably long drive over rough road in some of the better conditions. Bottom line ... I've gone into Leano twice and used a shuttle both times (and I drive a full-sized pickup). dd (later edit) I guess I should add, that I did drive my pickup to the Onnie EP in 2010 for my exit ride back to Red Lake. The shuttle driver then took me and gear on to Leano. The stretch to Onnie is a bit better than what comes later, but I still managed a puncture even getting to Onnie.
nctry	02/06/2014 12:09PM   I drove back to Leano with my F350 Dually last September. It was sort of rough but taking our time it wasn't too bad. I only have two wheel drive so my clearance isn't as good, but never had any trouble. I drive out in the woods at home on logging trails worse than that to get firewood. If you were like Harlan and drove that road almost daily you'd be looking at many dollars in repairs over time. That is why Harlan can't do it any cheaper than he does. I'd go the shuttle route at least to do what Doc did by leaving his vehicle at Onnie and shuttling in the rest of the way to Leano. We met a couple of guys that were a little angry because they felt their shuttle was very late. So if you do have a shuttle lined up be prepared to wait a little bit if they aren't there right away. There are many factors in them being on time some of which might be stopping to do a little road maintenance or something so they can get thru. The good new is he'll bring you a beer or two which many people enjoy and soon forget if Harlan or his guys might be a little late. :)
ZaraSp00k	02/06/2014 08:12PM   like the disclaimer says: your mileage may vary I have driven from Ear Falls and Red Lake in a 2WD RAV4 at night, no problemo you just have to use your head IMO, if you aren't capable of driving these roads, you may not have what it takes to paddle those waters
gnegard	02/13/2014 05:05PM   Marten, Thanks for the update. Late May? That's about the time I'll be there. Planning for around 10 days. Hope to see you at Canoecopia. Greg
ECpizza	02/13/2014 10:49PM   I'd love to see some pictures of the bad stuff. That would be the most helpful thing. With people I know, I know the one who tries to put out his fish house in November, and the one nervous to go on the ice before mid January. I would know how closely their advice fit my comfort and ability level. However, my group seems to be growing, making the shuttle more 'economical'.
Marten	02/13/2014 03:58PM   With so little or no maintenance on the road it is impossible to predict what you will find. As a general rule the road is not bad out to the Black Bear Lodge parking area. Johnson is another 3-4 miles past this parking spot. A heavy rain can change the condition of the road in a very short time. If you carry gear to patch a big washout and are used to driving on a road that can easily damage your vehicle you can plan on using the road to Johnson.
jcavenagh	02/13/2014 05:28PM   Thanks, Marten. That is exactly the info I sought.
Bogwalker	02/14/2014 06:16AM   EC-you mention in your last post that your group seems to be growing. I don't know what size your group is at but I'll share my experience. What I have found is that most of the "established" campsites in Woodland Caribou have 1 or maybe 2 decent tent pads. There are campsites that have more space but for the most part having a group larger then 4 people can be difficult. You will also come upon campsites that you wonder if it could even work for one small tent and one person. Can a larger group work up there? Definitely, but it probably will require that you either make whatever site is available work or keep searching for a site that accommodates a larger group when the day is winding down. Maybe you aren't thinking of a group larger than 4 but I wanted you to have this thought as you continue planning. When I go I keep the group to 4 or less due to some of the campsite sizes.
Marten	02/14/2014 03:46PM   HOW MUCH IS THAT SHUTTLE? This photo was taken last July 2013 on a piece of the road that was getting some needed new gravel. Even on this good piece of road a mental mistake can put you in a big mess. I know he wishes he could do it over again.
jcavenagh	02/19/2014 11:23AM   quote Marten: "With so little or no maintenance on the road it is impossible to predict what you will find. As a general rule the road is not bad out to the Black Bear Lodge parking area. Johnson is another 3-4 miles past this parking spot. A heavy rain can change the condition of the road in a very short time. If you carry gear to patch a big washout and are used to driving on a road that can easily damage your vehicle you can plan on using the road to Johnson." So I looked on Google Earth. 5.5km from Black Bear Lodge to Johnson Lake. Gotta check with the group and see what they think. I have 4WD, but only 7.5-8" clearance.