Boundary Waters Quetico Forum :: Listening Point - General Discussion :: Proposed moose hunt on Isle Royale
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Pinetree |
dex8425: "Nature does prevent the scales from tipping the other way. If there are too many wolves, the wolves will kill each other and/or will starve, because wolves can really only take ill or young moose. Healthy adult moose fight back and either drive wolves away or kill them and the pack gives up. When the wolf population was higher, (I think 50-60 was the highest it ever got) there were a lot of wolf on wolf killings since the packs are so territorial. Several also fell into old mine pits. Seen a picture of the a wolf canine tooth and other remnants showing that wolves will eat wolves. |
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Bushpilot |
Pinetree: "Bushpilot: "The moose population skyrocketed after the demise of the wolf. The demise of the wolf was inbreeding and disease brought to the island by a dog. I am surprised that wolves in other places haven't caught parvovirus with the flood of pets into the backcountry." The last wolf I saw was a dead one on a game trail 4 miles east of Lindens land and old house in Isabella. It had mange bad and weighed less than 40 lbs. |
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campnfish |
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OneMatch |
Proposed Isle Royale moose hunt article. |
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SlowElk |
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Marten |
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timatkn |
hobbydog: "Before the white man arrived, moose, buffalo, caribou, elk and wolves all managed to flourish along with a whole host of other wildlife. And they did that without humans trying to micro manage it. Amazing. " Actually that statement has a lot of flaws...Number one there is no going back we are here now, we have a responsibility, even if true the only way to go back to the good ole days when allegedly everything was in balance and worked perfectly before people settled the US Would be to remove the people? How ya gonna do that? Just isn’t a realistic way to view the environment. I disagree with your assessment but really no sense in arguing it just isn’t an option. Since modern wildlife management and hunting seasons/techniques, we have good history of managing species. Wolves are recovered in MN, Turkeys are back in MN, Otters are back in Iowa and MO for just a couple of examples of direct “micro-managing” by humans. Maybe you hate those animals and don’t think we should of managed them back? I would say we are part of the environment now, our poor methods in the past caused some of the problems and now we have a responsibility to manage where we can. Through research we know exactly what will happen on Isle Royale...the population will crash and could even disappear. I can listen to an argument for study purposes that we should let it happen or see how bad it could get, but to say they will “flourish” without human intervention defies all logic and current knowledge? T |
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VaderStrom |
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ZaraSp00k |
hobbydog: "Before the white man arrived, moose, buffalo, caribou, elk and wolves all managed to flourish along with a whole host of other wildlife. And they did that without humans trying to micro manage it. Amazing. " that's because the area was sparecly populated with people. You must be unfamilar with the history of the red man in SW US and Mexico long before the evil white man came. they pretty much did the same, and for good measure, ate each other. |
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Pinetree |
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Bushpilot |
Pinetree: " Update " The male wolf was 11 years old and his mate, who was both his sister and daughter, is now nine years old. Interesting article. I am going read it again. |
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ZaraSp00k |
On the other hand a lot of money would be dropped at the island, especially if they ran it like the hunt camps in Ontario. Seems to me the Indians could do a good business housing the hunters, wine and dine them, at Grand Portage. |
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LindenTree |
Bushpilot: I saw a Wolf with mange walking down Hwy 1 right by the old forestry office in Isabella in the early 2,000's. Can't remember what time of year, probabally late winter or early spring. The thing was pretty scrawney, I felt sorry for it, hoping it would die soon. |
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Zwater |
"We are here and we are here until we destroy this planet with our roads, our sub-divisions, air ports, shopping centers and probably the single worst element of all that destroys flora and fauna like no other - golf courses. Quit talking about balance in Nature. It doesn't exists. It doesn't exist." Ok. So I take you are NOT a golfer? |
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awbrown |
SlowElk: "Had to read again. Hunting sounds like a better idea than bringing in more wolves." What's your perspective on the moose/wolf relationship? |
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hexnymph |
Hex |
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SlowElk |
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Jackfish |
hexnymph: "I'm in! The wolf reintroduction has gone poorly to put it nicely." Hex, if you're going to blow such wind, you should at least add some substance. |
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ZaraSp00k |
looking at how much they get for a license to kill a moose in Ontario, maybe charging the same on the island for a hunt would be a good idea 2500 x 1000 = a 2.5 million although I'm not in favor of it if the money goes to MI, that's chump change to them, but to the park service, that's real money |
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Bushpilot |
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dex8425 |
They keep moving the caribou back and forth away from the wolves. Caribou are on the Slate islands now. |
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Bushpilot |
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butthead |
butthead |
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Bushpilot |
I have been going to the island since the early 70s and have seen the wolf and moose population go up and down. I have not seen a wolf in my last two trips to the island. The moose are staving. Their size has gone down by about 20% from lack of food. The moose on the island are now half the size of an Alaskan moose. |
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hobbydog |
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nofish |
It seems like man trying to make the wolves do what they want doesn't really work. Should be keep forcing the issue while letting the moose continue to over populate? If it is determined that wolves HAVE to be on the island maybe a interim hunting season is allowed to help control the moose population while the wolf population is left to grow. If and when the wolf population starts to grow large enough to impact moose populations then you can start to reduce the number of moose hunting permits that are allowed until the moose population can be controlled by the wolves alone. At that time you can suspend the hunting of moose on the island. I do have a concern thought that nothing prevents the scales from tipping the other way down the road. You may get to a point where the wolf population gets too large and starts killing too many moose. If reintroduction of wolves is the mandate it must come with the ability to manage their population if it becomes to large. I know managing a wolf population through hunting and trapping ruffles all kinds of feathers but if man is going to intervene to increase a species population it needs to be able to then start limiting the growth of that species population when it starts to negatively impact other species. The goal should be a moose/wolf balance but from what I've seen of the island its been very hard to strike a balance naturally. If man intervenes then we need to be all in on what that entails. You can't simply stop when there are a lot of wolves again and let them have whatever impact they are going to have. 25 or 50 years from now we could be on the other side of the discussion talking about how to reintroduce moose to the island and what we should do about all those wolves. |
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dex8425 |
Caribou, on the other hand, don't fight wolves, they just run away. Little hard to do on a small island like michipicoten. |
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woodsandwater |
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hobbydog |
I love to hunt as much as anyone and a dream hunt would be a fly in moose hunt but I am ok with leave IR as it is. |
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SlowElk |
On an island? I’m not really sure and not qualified to say. How did the moose get back on IR? My opinions don’t mean squat, but the first random thought that popped into my head was that if there were too many moose maybe they can be moved elsewhere? Not sure if that is a great idea either. It is my understanding that Moose populations have been way down for a long time, and that wolves are at least partly to blame? If I read the article correctly there are already 15 wolves on IR? How many do you think that land mass can support? I believe nature has a way of balancing things out over time, but is never static. |
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Bearpath9 |
The article didn't say, but is there a deer population also ? The wolves may decide that moose, except for the old, sick and young, aren't worth the risk, and concentrate on deer instead. Maybe a combination of both would work, with limited hunting until a balance is achieved. |
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Bushpilot |
SlowElk: "Hello Awbrown. I am not sure how moose got on the Island. But it is said they were brought to the Island to hunt for sport by Island people. |
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SlowElk |
Wasn’t there 0 moose on IR about a decade ago? Somehow I think no one in MN wants any MI wolves showing up on the north shore. |
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Bushpilot |
SlowElk: "Hopefully I can learn more from some of you guys. While not a completely closed system, I wonder if genetic diversity plays any role on the island." Don't know about the genetics with the moose. But the wolves were inbreed. At one point 2 wolves were on the Island. A male and female. Father - Daughter. |
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riverrunner |
hobbydog: "Why do humans think they need to try control everything in nature? They have an incredibly poor track record of doing so. Why do you think they don't have to. Humans have been changing their world ever since they have been around. Other animals change theirs also just by being there. Or by direct action on their part. |
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Bushpilot |
Bearpath9: " if the wolves can't kill enough moose to survive, they just go back to the mainland. No deer on the Island. Wolves that have been moved to the Island have already left via the winter ice bridge. Which wasn't supposed to happen because of global warming. |
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Bushpilot |
SlowElk: "Ok, I missed the part about there being 2000 moose. That is great news. There have been moose on the Island for more than 75 years. Maybe 100? |
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SlowElk |
I have been a big fan of the wolf recovery from the start. But...: Thought I remembered reading that about 10 years ago there were 6000 wolves in the area north of Duluth, and that the last moose on IR was taken down around that time? Edit: A quick internet search says that I must be mistaken, and brings up more to read. Link |
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awbrown |
The last Caribou seen on the island was in 1925, and none have ever tried repopulating the island via the occasional ice bridges. In addition, the climate there is probably a bit more tropical than what caribou prefer today. Moose were first spotted on the island in 1908 and the wolves crossed over in 1949. |
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butthead |
The wolves as pack animals very territorial were competing between packs and lack of reproduction diversity. Without a predator the moose will die off due to over-bowsing and disease. The study is well documented and researched. About The Project: Overview Personally I believe the island too small to support wolf populations and if the moose are to stay hunting may be the best way for control. The license sales alone would go a long way to support the National Park. butthead |
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Pinetree |
Bushpilot: "The moose population skyrocketed after the demise of the wolf. The demise of the wolf was inbreeding and disease brought to the island by a dog. I am surprised that wolves in other places haven't caught parvovirus with the flood of pets into the backcountry." I think they have to some extent. I do know also we did have a lot of mange this last decade and wolf losses from it. Yes fox and coyote suffered from mange being real bad. |
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KarlBAndersen1 |
There is none. There WAS. But no more. It ended the day the first human knocked a gopher on the head with a stick or plucked a fish out of a stream. These animals - in whatever form, place or amount - are only here today by our mercy. "Balance" exists in huge regions - not tiny little microcosms. The wolves in the Arrowhead region do not bring any kind of balance. The wolves in Yellowstone don't bring any kind of balance. They devastate and destroy any living creature they encounter simply so they can stay alive, and having many friends in those regions who inform me of their observations, they also wipe out populations simply for the hell of it. They like to kill. We are here and we are here until we destroy this planet with our roads, our sub-divisions, air ports, shopping centers and probably the single worst element of all that destroys flora and fauna like no other - golf courses. Quit talking about balance in Nature. It doesn't exists. It doesn't exist. |
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Bushpilot |
Pinetree: "dex8425: "Nature does prevent the scales from tipping the other way. If there are too many wolves, the wolves will kill each other and/or will starve, because wolves can really only take ill or young moose. Healthy adult moose fight back and either drive wolves away or kill them and the pack gives up. When the wolf population was higher, (I think 50-60 was the highest it ever got) there were a lot of wolf on wolf killings since the packs are so territorial. Several also fell into old mine pits. Yes they will eat each other. Even more common is for a pack to raid another packs den and kill there young. They wont always eat the pups sometimes they just kill them. This can also be the result of man playing a role in over populating an area with wolves. We have all seen what role it has played with the moose population in Minnesota. Just found this link to wolves killing their own. I wonder how things went on Isle Royale? One pack could have killed off the other packs. This would leave the only way to reproduce..... was incest. This was taken a few years back on the NW side of the island by the study group that lives on the island. These wolves walked over from the main land. They were than stalked by the people on the Island. They turned around and went back to the mainland. |