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 Boundary Waters Quetico Forum Quetico Forum The border might be opening, maybe Reply
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| Previous Messages: | |
| Author | Message Text |
| homers |
06/22/2021 03:55PM Time for the leaders to follow the science |
| Argo |
06/22/2021 07:21AMBnD: "tumblehome: "CBS news had a story tonight about the possibility of the border opening. Many people on both sides are really suffering with the border being closed. I don't know anymore than this. Fewer than 300 cases in Ontario yesterday. Fewer than 800 in the entire country. One major Toronto hospital declared no Covid cases in ICU last week. Zero! Yet you still can't get your hair cut in this province. Let that be your yardstick. |
| BnD |
06/21/2021 12:23PMtumblehome: "CBS news had a story tonight about the possibility of the border opening. Many people on both sides are really suffering with the border being closed. I don't know anymore than this. Bwahahaha.... Just buyin' time till the summer tourist season is over my friends. Notice there were no qualifiers on the 30 day extension. Same ol', same ol'. No worries, we're headed to MX in September to spend some money, lay on the beach and go near shore fishing. Not gonna cry over that spilt milk. Maybe 2022? |
| billconner |
05/20/2021 06:44AM All other considerations aside, not having to wear a mask is almost reason enough. Unvaccinated still have to wear a mask in many places that the vaccinated do not. I hope they do. |
| Jackfish |
05/19/2021 10:49PMboonie: "LarryS48: " Nothing is 100%. So, even if you are vaccinated there is a small, very small, chance of getting infected. There are also those for whom the vaccines won’t work or work well e.g. immunocompromised people. Some people can’t get the shot yet e.g. children under 12. Some can’t get the shot just because they have complicated lives. So, vaccinated people worry about the unvaccinated in a small way for themselves but in a big way for others. Some of us worry about you and your kids but acknowledge that is your decision to make. In addition, we would like to see the pandemic end rather than linger on. We see vaccination as the best hope for that. " +2... thanks Larry. Well said. Lots of good discussion in this thread. |
| mschi772 |
05/19/2021 05:39PMbillconner: "But does a 35 year old feel threatened by it and should they? And anyone who has had it and recovered? I don't think we know what the hazard really is for those populations, but I read some interviews and they don't think the hazard is significant at all. Less than 5% of the deaths, around 24,000 (4 1/4 % from CDC figures as of May 12) are under 50. Not sure that more in that age group would have died from other causes during the same time period in a non-pandemic year." Like all the other tools we've been using this whole time, the vaccination is about protecting others more than protecting myself (I'm exactly 35 years old). You could say that the most vulnerable people are vaccinated and no longer need me to worry about protecting them as much, but not all of them are, plus regardless of the numbers, there ARE young people who have died. Some of my friends lost people they knew--one or two of whom were young and healthy. I want nothing to do with contributing to that especially if all that's left for me to do is get a vaccine. I don't care if there are more people dying from other things or not. I want NOTHING to do with carelessly allowing a dangerous pathogen to potentially end anyone's life if a preventative measure is available to us. My second shot is in two days. Wharfrat63: "One last question, why do so many people worry about who is not vaccinated? I mean if you have the shot you are protected...Right? If you are not protected then why take it. " I'm not so selfish as to not care about others getting sick or dying from something so easily prevented at this point just because *I'm* protected. If you're aware of someone doing something reckless, do you really just carry-on with your day thinking nothing of it because it doesn't affect you? You wouldn't try to stop a jumper on a building or bridge or at least call for help? Someone unwittingly walking in to traffic wouldn't worry you and compel you to take action? I'm not about to start forcing shots into people's arms myself, but I'm also not going to stop caring and encouraging them to get vaccinated... and I'm the most misanthropic person I know. paddlinjoe: "still in test phase by any other vaccine life cycle" This is a tiresome misconception/misinformation based on people refusing to understand, failing to understand, or being deliberately kept in the dark about how much of the progress on a coronavirus vaccine had already been made prior to this particular strain hitting the world and how companies and scientists devised ways of speeding the process up without cutting any corners by performing tasks simultaneously which had previous been performed sequentially despite not needing to be performed sequentially. This isn't a one-off, so expect to see some future vaccines benefit from these streamlined production methods as well. Will your trust in a vaccine remain based on how long it takes to make? That's silly. Do you not trust food cooked in a microwave because of how fast it cooks (nevermind how it tastes). Do you not trust butter that wasn't made via hand milking and manual churning? Are you worried by modern buildings because they are constructed so much faster than they used to be? Rhetorical questions of course. ------- EDIT: You know what? It *isn't* all selflessness and caring to want people to get vaccinated. If the virus continues to circulate in a large enough unvaccinated population that it manages to mutate in such a way as to resist the vaccines we have, I, and everyone I know will be in danger again, and I'll be pissed. |
| boonie |
05/19/2021 01:10PMLarryS48: " Nothing is 100%. So, even if you are vaccinated there is a small, very small, chance of getting infected. There are also those for whom the vaccines won’t work or work well e.g. immunocompromised people. Some people can’t get the shot yet e.g. children under 12. Some can’t get the shot just because they have complicated lives. So, vaccinated people worry about the unvaccinated in a small way for themselves but in a big way for others. Some of us worry about you and your kids but acknowledge that is your decision to make. In addition, we would like to see the pandemic end rather than linger on. We see vaccination as the best hope for that. " +1 |
| LarryS48 |
05/19/2021 12:39PM Nothing is 100%. So, even if you are vaccinated there is a small, very small, chance of getting infected. There are also those for whom the vaccines won’t work or work well e.g. immunocompromised people. Some people can’t get the shot yet e.g. children under 12. Some can’t get the shot just because they have complicated lives. So, vaccinated people worry about the unvaccinated in a small way for themselves but in a big way for others. Some of us worry about you and your kids but acknowledge that it is your decision to make. In addition, we would like to see the pandemic end rather than linger on. We see vaccination as the best hope for that. |
| Wharfrat63 |
05/19/2021 12:12PMpaddlinjoe: "Wharfrat63, thank you for your questions and information. I'm not sure if your comments were apolitical, bi-political or non-binary, but they sure weren't one sided. I appreciate them. +1 on the personal risk calculus. No politics. Just an individual that is stumbling thru life. All of us have personal experiences that come to bear on our decisions. For me, I used to take a anti-inflammatory called Vioxx. Pfizer and the .gov said it was safe. After years of using, it was pulled from the market because of heart issues... One last question, why do so many people worry about who is not vaccinated? I mean if you have the shot you are protected...Right? If you are not protected then why take it. |
| boonie |
05/19/2021 09:38AMWharfrat63: "I am sorry but with all due respect I don't understand your logic on this: "We don't totally understand what this does in the longer-term for young folks and it would be great if we could convince folks and their kids to get the shot". My thought is we don't know the long term effects of the vaccination, but we don't know the long term effects of Covid either, although there are indications they may be far-reaching. We do know the short term effects of Covid can often be devastating, if not fatal, much more so than vaccination. I chose to be vaccinated. I have had many vaccinations over my lifetime with no lasting ill effects. YMMV |
| paddlinjoe |
05/19/2021 08:48AM Wharfrat63, thank you for your questions and information. I'm not sure if your comments were apolitical, bi-political or non-binary, but they sure weren't one sided. I appreciate them. My take... As we get older we start having conversation with our doctors about cholesterol meds, high blood pressure meds, "baby aspirin" etc. My doctor often talks about the math and probabilities of side effects of the medication vs the complications like heart attacks and strokes the medication is trying to mitigate. The "math" for a vaccine for an elderly person is in favor of a vaccine because of the percentage of people issues with the vaccine are lower than the percentage of elderly who contracts Covid and die or have serious complications. By the math, most elderly would want to have the vaccine to protect themselves. The "math" for a child taking the vaccine (at this time of learning with the vaccines) is at the other end of the spectrum. As a society we would want children to have the vaccine so that they don't spread the virus, to protect us, but is that the best mathematical choice for the individual child? At this point even the FDA says no for children under 12. If I were a healthy 25 year old, this would be my question. Am I ready to "take one for the team"? Am I ready to take on the personal risk of having a reaction to the vaccine (still in test phase by any other vaccine life cycle) and possibly help stop the spread of Covid, or do I wait? If I wait, then I am signing up to mask up for a much longer time period than others, to help stop the spread of Covid as best I can. There is not a 100% win win answer in my opinion. I won't disparage that 25 year old (or anyone of any age) for making either of those decisions. My father has been told in no uncertain terms by his doctor that he should not get the vaccine because of his risk of a reaction. My mother has been vaccinated. We can encourage people to vaccinate, but we shouldn't shame or demonize them for not doing it. It's a personal decision, not a political one. |
| billconner |
05/19/2021 08:27AM Here's an article on Covid and children, the effects and the possibility that many more cases among children that are asymptomatic and not in the stats. article From my view, it appears clear that the effects of Covid are much worse than any possible effects of the vaccines; and the effects of the pandemic continuing unchecked by immunity are far worse than any negative outcomes of the vaccination. More troubling is how we should treat people who do not vaccinate and are therefore a threat to the health of others and to the economy. I wish they would show respect for those that do vaccinate, avoid settings with lots of people, avoid all mass transit, and stay masked up. I was curious how the FDA voted for the polio vaccines, which seem a clear success. |
| LarryS48 |
05/18/2021 07:31PM I have asked some of the questions you have asked. Here is what I found out with regard to your question #2. The lifetime of mRNA in the body is measured in hours not days. Your body is making RNA all the time (but not RNA for the spike protein). Say you cut your finger. You have to grow some new skin. The code to make skin is in your DNA. To make the protein of skin the section of the DNA for making skin proteins is copied to RNA. The RNA goes to the ribosomes and using the plan in the RNA the protein is made. The body then destroys the RNA. If the RNA were not destroyed quickly you'd have a very large finger. So, RNA in general is short lived. Even in the absence of the enzymes in the body that do in the RNA, it is not very stable. The mRNA vaccines (Pfizer and Moderna) have to be kept cold because the RNA is not very thermally stable. So, the mRNA vaccines themselves are not long lived in your body. Once the spike protein is made, it takes a few weeks for your immune system to react to it. The vaccine is injected into the deltoid muscle of your arm. I believe (but haven't checked) the the spike protein is made in those muscle cells. |
| Wharfrat63 |
05/18/2021 03:13PMscotttimm: "I trust science and their conclusions on the use of mRNA vaccines after decades of research. Maybe this article on how we know the Covid vaccine won't have long-term side effects would be interesting reading for you. Most often when side-effects come up it happens in the first few months. Having lost a good friend (who was healthy) to Covid, having multiple nurse-friends completely overwhelmed with Covid cases and complications in the ER, having known two people who contracted Covid twice (one is in the hospital now), and knowing the science and research that has gone into it, I trust it enough to choose that very very small calculated risk over the larger risk of a global pandemic. " Scotttimm, I am so sorry about your friend. Losing someone close to you is horrible. I hope that the pain of their passing is soon replaced by happy memories of times shared together. I read the article and I don't agree with the conclusion. I do agree with you choosing your own course. This has become quite a emotional topic for people to discuss here, so I will not go tit-for-tat on the issues I have with the article. And as you can see by the mocking (Roll my eyes comment.) ,to anyone that has questions or disagrees shows that people are in their camps and dug in. It is unfortunate...I have been censored on this site almost every time I attempt to provide information or ask pondering questions. I have been called a troll by people on this site. It is so unfortunate as I only wish to provide a different perspective. Here are a few more questions to ponder and may give the "dug in' perspective of those they don't understand: mRNA vax works by entering cells via a synthetic lipid. Once in the cell, that cell begins to produce the Corona spike protein. Your body then produces a response to the spike protein and that is how you get resistance to the virus. If that simple description is incorrect someone let me know. Based on that... 1. We have a lot of cells. Which ones produce that protein? All of them? Some of them? I don't know. Are there different reactions in your body based on what cells produce the proteins? I don't know. 2. When do our cells stop producing a foreign organism's protein in our bodies? Is it forever? I don't know. We worry about GMO foods, but I am supposed to believe that mRNA of a Corona Virus that enters our cells is ok? It has taken decades to see the effect of GMO foods and we still don't know everything. 3. In the extremely shortened, (remember Trump pushed this), phase I and II trials, severe systemic reactions were found in 5 to 10% of the subjects. 4. Many drugs and vaccines that were approved via the long established processes without overlapping phases or being fast tracked in months, are removed from the market after approval because of effects not captured in years of trials. So am I to believe something changed overnight to make this new tech ok because the government said so? This is the same government that said WMD existed in Iraq; lied about Iran Contra; allowed cartels to purchase and flow weapons to Mexico in Fast and Furious. It is also the same government, that lied about Masks in March of last year and had neglected the PPE supplies from the National stockpile. It is the same government, that botched the first PCR tests for COVID as well. 5. Why are the companies given protection from any liability from this vaccine? If we are so confident that there are no problems, why did these companies push and get this immunity? Why is that needed if no long term problems exist. 6. The Emergency Approval by the 162nd Vaccines and Related Biological Products Advisory Committee was not unanimous. For Pfizer vax, 17 yeas, 4 no's, and 1 abstain. So Science is not absolute. Some FDA doctors/experts didn't think it was safe. 7. Why is any discussion like this banned or censored on all social media platforms? Many doctors disagree with the Emergency Use even in the FDA, but they are censored or mocked. Science used to be about research, review, and reassessment. Now it is shut up, you can't talk about issues you see. 8. No testing has been done on fertility. Do we really want to vaccinate kids without this testing? I say hell no! Please, do not push this to your kids or grand kids. I will leave this with a little rant: I am amazed at how my generation has changed to be so trusting of Big Corps and .gov. I think many people on this site who comment on COVID are similar to me. We grew up in the 60's and 70's where we didn't trust everything our government told us. We railed against big corporations and We were rightly skeptical as I continue to be today. But some of us, have given up that value and think that the .gov is infallible. I hope that my skepticism is proven wrong, because if it isn't millions of people may be harmed. I hope years from now I am mocked incessantly, for my questions. Wonder if this will be deleted? Don't care. I have always paved my own way. I wish you all "Fair winds and following seas." Enjoy your trips into the wild and hold your love ones close. Wharfrat63 |
| LarryS48 |
05/18/2021 11:53AMscotttimm:I trust science and their conclusions on the use of mRNA vaccines after decades of research. Maybe this article on how we know the Covid vaccine won't have long-term side effects would be interesting reading for you. Most often when side-effects come up it happens in the first few months. Having lost a good friend (who was healthy) to Covid, having multiple nurse-friends completely overwhelmed with Covid cases and complications in the ER, having known two people who contracted Covid twice (one is in the hospital now), and knowing the science and research that has gone into it, I trust it enough to choose that very very small calculated risk over the larger risk of a global pandemic. " +1 I agree the risks of not getting vaccinated are greater for the individual and far greater for society than the risks of getting vaccinated. It often feels safer to do nothing when you have even a tiny bit of doubt. However, doing nothing can actually be the less safe option. The evidence strongly suggests this is the case for vaccines. |
| scotttimm |
05/18/2021 11:20AM I trust science and their conclusions on the use of mRNA vaccines after decades of research. Maybe this article on how we know the Covid vaccine won't have long-term side effects would be interesting reading for you. Most often when side-effects come up it happens in the first few months. Having lost a good friend (who was healthy) to Covid, having multiple nurse-friends completely overwhelmed with Covid cases and complications in the ER, having known two people who contracted Covid twice (one is in the hospital now), and knowing the science and research that has gone into it, I trust it enough to choose that very very small calculated risk over the larger risk of a global pandemic. |
| goatroti |
05/18/2021 11:18AM I am sorry but with all due respect this is where I roll my eyes. |
| Wharfrat63 |
05/18/2021 10:08AM I am sorry but with all due respect I don't understand your logic on this: "We don't totally understand what this does in the longer-term for young folks and it would be great if we could convince folks and their kids to get the shot". But do we know the long-term effects of the Vax? |
| scotttimm |
05/18/2021 09:53AMbillconner: "Feels more like people that don't trust the government are the ones not rushing to be vaccinated. That does include some to the right of the political spectrum as well as evangelicals; but also a good number of minorities, who seem more justified in not trusting the government. (Just saw a map and Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama were the three states with lowest percentage of population vaccinated. And look at vaccinations by race. ) And quite a few younger people don't have a lot of confidence in government. We had it run through our family. It sucks. We are all now vaccinated. My middle daughter - 14, still having signs of some long Covid (we think). Recently caught a cold and it took her a full week to recover, but still sounds like crap and is exhausted - where as my youngest (12) caught the same cold and bounced back a few days later. My niece (17) got her vaccine and came down with Covid the very next day (or maybe two days later?). So she likely was exposed just before or immediately after. She took it hard, has asthma, and since recovered she really struggles with any kind of physical exertion. Her mom is taking her to a pulmonologist to get checked out, but is really worried about her on this year's BWCA trip. So while the young may be resistant and have some reservations, I think we still don't totally understand what this does in the longer-term for young folks and it would be great if we could convince folks and their kids to get the shot. |
| HighnDry |
05/18/2021 09:47AM I'd like to be hopeful on this one :) |
| billconner |
05/18/2021 05:51AM Tradeau talked publicly yesterday about reopening the border. I'm applying for my ArriveCAN pass today. |
| Savage Voyageur |
05/17/2021 09:16PM I’m still sticking with my prediction of May 2022 for the border opening. |
| goatroti |
05/17/2021 02:40PMArgo: "Jackfish: "Even the NHL is pushing for the border to open. They want it open for the 2nd round of the playoffs, which should be around June 1st. " And rightly so. How can the Canadian government open the border for millionaire hockey players to pursue their $$$ when three of the largest provinces with potential 2nd round teams are in the midst of the third wave and their citizens are under differing degrees of lockdown imposed by provincial governments? That'll look good. Frankly, who cares what the NHL wants? |
| billconner |
05/17/2021 01:58PM Feels more like people that don't trust the government are the ones not rushing to be vaccinated. That does include some to the right of the political spectrum as well as evangelicals; but also a good number of minorities, who seem more justified in not trusting the government. (Just saw a map and Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama were the three states with lowest percentage of population vaccinated. And look at vaccinations by race. ) And quite a few younger people don't have a lot of confidence in government. (Some sympathy as I was a teenager at the height of the Viet Nam War.) In fact, by reports I've read, they suggest its the under 50s most resisting the vaccine. A third or so of the military and their families say no. And the 15s and under until this week are not being vaccinated, kid of slanting the numbers. I didn't think there was any question and got my wife and I appointments very early, within days of our age group becoming eligible. Felt bad for the less computer savvy, the only reason we got in early. And that was months after we had tested positive and recovered. And I do all of the vaccines and flu shots and get all of the screenings recommended. But does a 35 year old feel threatened by it and should they? And anyone who has had it and recovered? I don't think we know what the hazard really is for those populations, but I read some interviews and they don't think the hazard is significant at all. Less than 5% of the deaths, around 24,000 (4 1/4 % from CDC figures as of May 12) are under 50. Not sure that more in that age group would have died from other causes during the same time period in a non-pandemic year. I sure wish everyone was a eager to be vaccinated as I was, but I can understand some resistors and even have some sympathy. |
| LarryS48 |
05/17/2021 01:55PM I hope we will be able to get more than 60% fully vaccinated. What percentage it will take to control things is debatable and will also depend on how transmissible new variants are. However, here is a hopefully sign. Israel is around the 60% mark and is doing pretty well. I miss Quetico too... a lot! So, I hope my fellow Americans buckle down and do what is necessary. It is like getting over a portage. Sometimes you just have to do what it takes even if that means crossing bogs, steep grades or blow down. The difficult part here is that if you have people in the group that won’t carry their load. On a portage you can carry their load. In a pandemic not as much. We can do some to protect the vulnerable. However, convincing those that want to party like it’s 2019 and aren’t vaccinated is hard. |
| tumblehome |
05/17/2021 12:53PMLarryS48: ". If we could just get down to the business of shutting the pandemic down and stop worrying about hockey games or Quetico trips, we’d have both sooner rather than later.. " It’s all about politics at this point. Up to 40% of of the US will never get the shot mostly because of party affiliation. Those 40% are the ones driving the pandemic now. 99.5% of all new cases are unvaccinated people. I’ve done all I can do. I’m vaccinated. So all I really care about is going to Quetico. I miss Canada, I miss Thunder Bay and Atikokan. Tom |
| LarryS48 |
05/17/2021 12:07PM The optics will be right when the public health is right for both countries. IMO that will require a lot more than 50% of people to be partially or fully vaccinated. Canada got off to a slow start but is now moving ahead at a good pace. The US got off to a fast start but is now slowing down. Hopefully, both countries overcome their problems. If so, things could be looking up by the fall. If we could just get down to the business of shutting the pandemic down and stop worrying about hockey games or Quetico trips, we’d have both sooner rather than later. In addition, both countries need to be prepared to share the ample doses they have purchased with the rest of the world once things are under control in their country. |
| Argo |
05/17/2021 11:09AMJackfish: "Even the NHL is pushing for the border to open. They want it open for the 2nd round of the playoffs, which should be around June 1st. " Money quote: "Isaac Bogoch, an infectious disease specialist at Toronto General Hospital who has consulted with the NHLPA, told ESPN last month that the issue is one not of "public health" or "player safety" but of "optics" for the Canadian government." |
| billconner |
05/17/2021 10:15AM It may depend on efficacy of just first dose of a two dose regimen, as Canada has almost caught up on percentage of residents with one dose. ourworldindata.org says 47% of US and 45% of CA residents have one dose as of 5/16. (Fully vaccinated 37% vs 4%) CDC and Israel data suggest one dose of Pfizer or Moderna is around 85% effective after a week, so not bad. It seems Canada might have made a good choice to get one dose in as many people as possible given tight supplies. |
| Jackfish |
05/17/2021 08:24AM Even the NHL is pushing for the border to open. They want it open for the 2nd round of the playoffs, which should be around June 1st. |
| LarryS48 |
05/16/2021 11:04PM I think the border will open when cases are down and vaccinations are up in both countries. Right now the US is ahead on both counts. However, I hope that the slow down in vaccinations, the rise of escape variants or opening up too soon won’t screw things up in the US. The Canadian vaccination program is picking up steam. They are talking about a one dose summer and a two dose fall. Barring the kinds of problems listed above, I think it might be possible that the border will open by the end of summer or early fall. |
| tumblehome |
05/16/2021 09:33PM I agree that the story slanted that way. It was unclear exactly if they meant just that spot or the entire border. We shall see. Something has to give eventually. Anyone that has wanted a shot in the US has had the opportunity so how much longer does that go on? Tom |
| LarryS48 |
05/16/2021 07:33PM I am not completely sure but... It sounds like this might be just for Point Roberts, WA. If you look at a map you can see why this might be special. Point Roberts has no land connection to the rest of the United States except through Canada. It is on a peninsula that starts in Canada and extends south into Puget Sound. The tip of the peninsula (Point Roberts) is below the 49th parallel and is part of the US. The Northwest Angle in MN is another place only connected to land via Canada and only by water to the rest of the US. |
| billconner |
05/16/2021 06:49PM CBS story |
| tumblehome |
05/16/2021 05:51PM CBS news had a story tonight about the possibility of the border opening. Many people on both sides are really suffering with the border being closed. I don't know anymore than this. I'm hoping. Tom |
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