Hi all,

I need some help choosing a good sleeping setup. Last year I was out and an unforcasted cold front came in and the temp dropped to -20F. Wasn't very prepared and paid the price in discomfort and lack of sleep.

I'd like to invest in a nicer sleeping bag. Looking at some down ones comfort rated to -20°F or -40°F with pertex exterior and interior. (Leaning more towards -40, <1lb difference). The big question: managing internal condensation???

I've seen some people say to pair a down bag with a synthetic quilt so that the dew point and moisture is frozen in the synthetic fibers and not the down, or to add a vapor barrier inside. Are $500-1000 sleeping bags really not sufficient on their own? I never sweat overnight in the winter and will breathe outside my bag in a well ventilated tent or tarp cover.

Consider this sleeping setup:
-reflective, waterproof 'tarp', closed cell pad + air pad (r-value 5+)
-merino wool base layer, heavy socks, gloves, hat, balaclava. (Designated for sleep)
-sea to summit thermolite reactor extreme (for comfort and a little warmth)
- -40°F down sleeping bag OR -20°F down sleeping bag + synthetic quilt?

What temp rating should a quilt be to work effectively? Is 50° sufficient to move dew point? What range would the -40° down bag and a 50° synthetic quilt give me? Or -20°F + 50° quilt?. *I don't plan on camping if forecasted lower than say -15 at night, but want to be ready for unexpected cold fronts

Welcome!
First question for you, what is your winter shelter? Are you in a heated tent or camping with no shelter?

I camp with a heated tent, but let the fire go out during the night. When I started, I had a synthetic bag (20 degree) inside of my down bag (15 degree). When I woke up in the morning, sometimes at -40, there would be condensation on the outside of the down bag, meaning condensation had traveled all the way through the synthetic and down bag, as it should.

At one point I had tried a similar version to the Sea to Summit Reactor bag. I had placed it on the outside of the down bag and since it doesn't breath at all, or very poorly, it trapped a lot more moisture and the top of my down bag was much more damp then before. I also tried it inside my synthetic bag and again it trapped moisture and left me feeling clammy.

I now camp with a closed-cell foam pad, an air pad, and a good sleeping bag rated to -40. I stay away from anything that has potential for trapping moisture. I do bring extra wool clothing layers just in case.

I think if you get a good sleeping bag and paired with your foam pad and air pad, you will be just fine. I would be wary of any item that doesn't breath well and let moisture pass through.

Thanks for such a thorough response!

I don't have a hot tent yet, but sometimes camp with others who do. (Let it go out at night). I'll be mostly sleeping in a tent or tarp setup. Is your -40° bag down or synthetic? And do you happen to know the external material?

Your experiences give me reassurance that just a good quality bag and base should do!

After many years of using various bags, this last year I was able to finally purchase what is considered a Gold-Standard for winter sleeping bags, a bag made by Feathered Friends. And I was mistaken, it isn't rated to -40, but to -25 which is more then enough for me and Feathered Friends has a reputation for being conservative on their temperature ratings. I wouldn't think twice about using this bag at -40, especially if I am wearing wool clothing.

It is a Feathered Friends Peregrine -25 with a Pertex Shield shell, with 900 fill Goose Down.
Feathered Friends Peregrine

I've looked at those bags (used by the "outdoor boys" YouTube channel, which is how I firt heard of them) and will definitely buy either the snow goose or snowy owl one day. For now I made my decision on a marmot -40 800 fill with pertex shell (last model on closeout sale), which was more my current budget for now.

Thanks again!

As a background, I have been winter camping for about 10 years. I usually get in about 4 to 7 shorter trips a winter in the BWCA . I started off with an inexpensive yet very bulky two bag system. For quite awhile I used a Mountain Hardware lumina bag rated for -30. Inside the bag I would us a thin poly sleeping bag liner.

The problem came on warmer trips as unzipping a single bag system is hard to regulate heat as even warm temps at 10 degrees cool you down quickly with a little draft.

A few years ago I switched back to a 2 bag system . I now use a 15 down Nemo spoon bag inside a wide Big Agnes 0 degree bag. If it is gonna be a cold night, say under -10 I usually sleep with my down parka inside the 15 degree bag. The parka is an easy way to make a micro adjustment by pulling it over my torso to act as a blanket or to just push it off the the side as a space filler in my bags.

I am big believer in the 2 bag system as it allows so much more flexibility. I camp both under tarps outside and in a snow trekker. I do however always let the stove go out.

Winter campers face a huge range of temps. Systems and layers are everything in clothes and should be in sleeping bags. On a late march trip with lows at 30 above I can ditch one bag or just use one as a blanket. I have camped down to -39 real temp with this system bundled up and been plenty warm as well.

One key as you mentioned is down on the inside, synthetic on the outside to reduce moisture in the down.

The only reason I would recommend an expensive down extreme cold rated bag is for reducing weight. If you plan to travel each day it may be worth it. If you are traveling in say 5 miles to set a base camp I recommend two bags.

This post does a great job of illustrating how all of us have our own systems which work great for what we need, and there are quite a few "right" answers which can keep you comfy and happy on a real cold trip.

As for me, I tend towards a 2 bag system + a liner. My warm bag is a -20 Slumberjack Sojourn "Dry-Down." It's the only sleeping bag I have owned which has a double zipper (one on both sides) which makes it incredibly adaptable for a wide range of temperatures. If it's warming up, I can unzip both sides and get it fully venting. If it's really cold, it has multiple velcro zipper stops a side to really help lock you in place. Inside of my -20, I have a home-sewn fleece liner that uses a nice fleece material sewn into a bag shape. It adds a decent amount of warmth, protects the sleeping bag from getting dirty, and (as a bonus) means my bag is always warm to the touch. I then use an old 32 degree coleman bag as my outer. For being a tired old bag it really does add something and I appreciate it taking the worst of the condensation over the nice down bag.

My biggest challenge has always been what to do with my face. I struggle to sleep with a hat on and a mask is even worse. If I stick my face inside of the bag, my bag gets plenty of condensation. If I leave my face exposed, I run the risk of my nose freezing. I have ended up usually just draping the outside of the waterproof winter coat over my head and venting based on temperature needs.

TreeBear: "This post does a great job of illustrating how all of us have our own systems which work great for what we need, and there are quite a few "right" answers which can keep you comfy and happy on a real cold trip.

My biggest challenge has always been what to do with my face. I struggle to sleep with a hat on and a mask is even worse. If I stick my face inside of the bag, my bag gets plenty of condensation. If I leave my face exposed, I run the risk of my nose freezing. I have ended up usually just draping the outside of the waterproof winter coat over my head and venting based on temperature needs. "

I agree TreeBear, there are no absolute answers or method to the sleep system for winter camping. I have found it is more of an evolution. I started out one way, modified it, and am at a different way now. And what I bring also depends on what type of trip it is, moving every day or basecamping. To each their own.

I also had the same problem of a cold nose. My method is similar to yours in that I drape an extra wool shirt over my whole head and sleep under that. Keeps my face and head warm while also allowing moisture to escape. Bonus is that if I am getting cold in my bag, I know where an extra layer is very quickly. But usually I have a spare shirt in my bag already to adjust for cold spots.

I have an older Marmot CWM bag that has kept me comfortable down to -41 below. (I use a sheet of plastic, a closed cell foam pad and a Exped air mattress beneath.) It has also worked on a trip with warmer temps. Each trip it always takes a bit to find the sweet spot of how much to cinch things up but, I can't say I've ever been truly uncomfortable.

I've slept in a hot tent with a stove, a canvas & nylon tents with no heat and right under the stars with no shelter. However, I've only ever camped for a 2-3 in a row, not anything longer. This bag has served me well in all those situations. But, as mentioned, there are several right answers. And this is probably not the answer your looking for? I think any of the suggested systems can work for you. Like Minnesotian said it's an ever evolving process. But, once you settle on a one, I think learning to properly manipulate your sleep system is ultimately the key to being comfortable. And, that can only come by your firsthand experience.

FWIW When I've made significant changes, I always try it out in the backyard first.

We put a waterproof barrier on the snow or ice, then z-rest type pads across the entire floor then thin wool blankets. Exped for each and a good sleeping bag. I use Western Mountainerring Puma -25.

The floor is solid. Heat reflector under the stove to prevent melting. An extra z-rest in the doorway if we have one. It is a great system when traveling with 3 guys.

Also, the Exped chair kits are nice too.



Go to the Winter Camping Symposium

i have a two man 4 season tent. I lay a thick fleece blanket on the whole floor first, also covering my mat. My sleeping mat has a real solid R-rating, this one is an old Gander Mountain mat but I have also worked with other mats with success as well. And finally for the cherry on top, I found a full sized sheepskin that is not quite my full height, but it does cover my torso and almost down to my feet. I have a -20 Marmot bag that has brought me through many cold nights that I trust. Typically even in the coldest of weather I don't even wear a thermal top in this setup. Although sometimes I've needed a stocking cap.





I actually don't love the hot tent scenario - we have one with us in camp that make the inside real warm but then introduces all kinds of ice build up and condensation issues,. This is very straightforward and neat.

TuscaroraBorealis: "I have an older Marmot CWM bag that has kept me comfortable down to -41 below.
...
FWIW When I've made significant changes, I always try it out in the backyard first. "

For the record, that bag fits inside what I believe to be the best available bivy sack. And for once, the military beat the civilians at the gear game. I have the earlier version of this and am very happy with its performance:

Tennier Industries Bivy Cover