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      Using 40+# fluoro instead of wire leader?     
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tombo131
distinguished member (135)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
05/23/2018 08:13AM
My home area (central Ohio) does not run me into many line cutting fish (unless I'm into gar down on the Ohio river). Is there a consensus that using 40+ pound flouro as a leader is as effective for pike bite offs as titanium/wire leaders? I was doing some searching, but was seeing opinions that went both ways.
 
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carmike
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05/23/2018 08:26AM
I'm not sure if there's a consensus, but when fishing big pike and muskies, I use 100# or thereabouts. I think they'll be able to cut through 40# without much trouble, but I could certainly be wrong.

For canoe country fishing, I forego the heavy flouro and use a titanium leader. It's expensive (but then again, so is the heavy flouro) and for me at least, easier to use. Just my .02.
mastertangler
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05/23/2018 09:37AM
You might get by using 40 floro through the ice when the pike a re a bit more lethargic but they will definitely go through 40 in the soft water months.......... been there done that.

Like Carmike I went with 100 fluorocarbon.........but then dropped to 80.........and then to 60 because I liked the presentation better. This past summer I caught several pike at 40" and had no shredding issues whatsoever with the 60 so until I have an issue that will be my standard. But much depends on what you are fishing with lure wise. I was using musky lures and really liked having 8' (foot) of 60 fluorocarbon as my leader. Worked great...........but if I were tossing more standard pike stuff, like a #5 Vibrax spinner for example, I would go with titanium.
Tyler W
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05/23/2018 11:17AM
I use 25# saltwater fluoro leader. The leader is definitely harder and stiffer than a regular spool line.

I've caught a bunch of pike fishing dead bait with the salwater leader. Most of the time they are hooked deep in the mouth. I've seen a few nicks in the leader, but I've never been bit off. I would say that 40# leader material should be good enough, but I can't vouch for 40# fluoro main line.

That being said, I don't usually use a leader with lures. In my experience a crank bait usually lands in the pikes jaws and the line is held clear of the teeth. I almost came to regret that this trip when a 30" pike swallowed a small wake bait. To my pleasant surprise the 12# fluoro Spiderwire I was using for a clear leader resisted the teeth long enough to net the pike. I did end up chopping off about 6" of the fluoro and retying.
Lotw
distinguished member (300)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
05/23/2018 11:43AM
I fish pike and muskies a lot......I mean a lot! I do not use anything other than Flouro for leaders anymore.
I think the smallest I use is 80. I have never had one fail. I do inspect them regularly and replace (or repair) if necessary.

I crimp most connections rather than knot. I pass the line through the sleeve, then I heat it and mushroom the end, pull it tight against the sleeve and then crimp.

I have a lot of people tell me that's not right........ I don't care. LOL
AmarilloJim
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05/23/2018 01:13PM
I use 40lb fluoro leader material when trolling and I have caught several pike that have engulfed my crank and had my leader in their teeth. Haven't lost one yet but I do usually have to replace the leader when this happens.
mastertangler
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05/23/2018 05:19PM
Lotw: "I fish pike and muskies a lot......I mean a lot! I do not use anything other than Flouro for leaders anymore.
I think the smallest I use is 80. I have never had one fail. I do inspect them regularly and replace (or repair) if necessary.


I crimp most connections rather than knot. I pass the line through the sleeve, then I heat it and mushroom the end, pull it tight against the sleeve and then crimp.


I have a lot of people tell me that's not right........ I don't care. LOL "


I have a bit of experience crimping and everything needs be just right. Most guys don't have the experience and even those that do will often knot the leader in addition to crimping as per trolling for dolphin with 100lb leaders. Of course a 50lb dolphin is a totally different animal than even a 50lb Muskie.

You should consider the tie fast tool for tying your leaders up. I can use the freshwater version with up to 100Lb fluorocarbon but the magnum saltwater version might suit your needs with the 100lb better. A 3 turn Gryp knot is the cats meow with fluorocarbon and 60, 80 or 100. I tie the gryp knot with these lb tests..........anything heavier I go with crimps.

If you have any doubts as to the effectiveness of the Gryp knot I have put a black grouper over 60lbs in the boat and several over 30. Throw in plenty of sharks which ran out 100lb braid like it was nothing and I can assure you of complete and confident success. These were caught using a locked down drag and a bent butt rod which was kept in the rod holder.........basically a winch with a 3 to 1 gear ratio. EXTREME pressure was involved.

I have had not one, but 2 Charter boat Captains compliment me on my knots as they were trying to break off 50 which was hung on the bottom. They would ask what my LB test was and what brand and then state "You tie good knots".

There is little need to add crimps with 80 or 100lb test. The right knot is all you need. The tie fast tool and the Gryp knot is superior in many respects.

Lotw
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05/23/2018 08:59PM
See my post above.
mastertangler
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05/24/2018 05:48AM
Lotw: "See my post above."

Exactly as I expected. I have always found it amazing how so many of the more experienced fisherman reject that which they are not familiar with. Guides, Captains and Outdoor/magazine writers that I have fished with have all been like this. The tenacity that they stick with what they have always done is not easily changed regardless the logic or even personal demonstration of a better way.

Fishing off of Head Boats or 6 Paks for 30 years has taught me a valuable lesson in being open to other ways of doing things. The biggest take away from many of these trips is a good dose of humility. As a result, I am usually quite willing to at least consider what someone else who is successful and knowledgable suggests. Then I try it, and make my own mind up as per the value of the info and its possible applications.

AmarilloJim
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05/24/2018 07:10AM
MT maybe LOTW has just advanced to the next level. Relax, be patient, you will get there.
Lotw
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05/24/2018 08:19AM
AmarilloJim: "MT maybe LOTW has just advanced to the next level. Relax, be patient, you will get there."

LMAO!!!

Or maybe I have learned something from Mastertroller!

Have you ever fished for something so easy you knew it would bite? ;)

I think there are a lot of people out there who over complicate things. I have had zero failures the way I do it..... in my eyes that's a good reason not to change what I'm doing.
mastertangler
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05/24/2018 08:52AM
I know right. When will I learn that you cant help folk out who don't want it. They actually end up resenting you for it even though you have only their best interests at heart.

I learned this lesson when I took 5 other guys offshore on a bottom fishing trip. They were all very experienced anglers, mostly professional types who were rather well off and a bit older and far more financially successful than myself. All regularly went on guided trips and one was even a prominent contributor to a national fishing publication with sponsors and endorsements. They had limited bottom fishing experience however and from our casual conversations I understood that they were not in a position to be particularly successful. Since we all had $1000 wrapped up in the 3 day trip I very much wanted to see them pull off a good catch.

I spent considerable time relating what I had learned from over 30 years of bottom fishing in rather excruciating detail via email leaving nothing hidden or holding back. We even gathered at my place for a dinner and a seminar of sorts. All of my concern for them earned me no good will for the most part but rather resentment. Apparently no one likes a "know-it-all" ;-) Such is pride I suppose. (But they did like my cooking ;-)

Anyway, they all got their ass kicked and I caught fully 1/2 the boats entire catch. When 1 guy catches more than 5 combined its time to pay attention. We went again the following year and pretty much the same thing happened. At the end of the trip the writer confided to me that this type of fishing was far beyond his expertise and he sheepishly acknowledged that I was a "master" at this type of angling and he should of taken my advice.

In any event I have given you a gift in the form of the tie fast tool and the Gryp knot. Do with it as you see fit. It is not the be all-end all in the knot discussion but it is clearly superior for a great many applications in fresh and salt water. For a measly $10 you can find out if I know what I'm talking about.......seems simple enough. You suggest that you believe folk over complicate things........I would suggest that a crimp is far more complicated and prone to all sorts of unintended failures than a simple knot (howbeit the correct knot).

AmarilloJim
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05/24/2018 08:55AM
Lotw: "AmarilloJim: "MT maybe LOTW has just advanced to the next level. Relax, be patient, you will get there."


LMAO!!!


Or maybe I have learned something from Mastertroller!


Have you ever fished for something so easy you knew it would bite? ;)


I think there are a lot of people out there who over complicate things. I have had zero failures the way I do it..... in my eyes that's a good reason not to change what I'm doing. "

I was just pulling his chain a little. LOL
Lotw
distinguished member (300)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
05/24/2018 09:09AM
if it's there you need to grab it right?
Othello
member (45)member
 
05/24/2018 11:18AM
Where would any of us be without our egos?

I, for one, took mastertangler's advice and tried the tie-fast for the first time on my trip last week. Used it on flies, rapalas, hook shank ties, fly line leaders, lindy rigs, and mono-to-braid connections. I have to say that it was faster and easier than any other method I have used, and at least as strong, if not more so, and for that I am grateful. My trip buddy agreed, and was using his new tie-fast the whole time, as well.
Dilligaf0220
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05/26/2018 12:52AM
If you're in a mixed smallmouth/pike lake, my rule of thumb is to up my flouro to the ratio of bass:pike. 20:1 bass to pike, I'll risk 20lb Flouro. Even odds pike to bass I'll up it to 40lb.
It's been my in the field studies (lol) that have noticed a direct correlation between the METHOD used, and pike bite offs.

Twitching stickbaits on the surface for mule smallies, practically zero biteoffs when the odd bruiser pike smashes it.
Throwing baits with a spinner on it (Mepps, spinnerbaits, Spinrite) 50/50 pike biteoffs on flouro regardless of the lb test.
Jigging bass with a tube or bucktail and a pike hits it. 9/10 even with 60lb flouro I'll let it drop, go to jig it up and it will just be....gone. Like a pair of scissors were taken to the line.

My fav leader alternative in pike filled waters is cheap to me because I'm a Great Lakes fisherman, we use 7 strand wire line in the summer so I'll grab a dozen yards off a reel and use that as a leader if I know I'll be tripping into heavy pike lakes. You can use braided line knots with it, Uni or Palomar. 27lb wire is about as flexible as 40lb flouro these days, and utterly pikeproof.
mastertangler
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05/26/2018 04:54PM
Dilligaf0220: "If you're in a mixed smallmouth/pike lake, my rule of thumb is to up my flouro to the ratio of bass:pike. 20:1 bass to pike, I'll risk 20lb Flouro. Even odds pike to bass I'll up it to 40lb.
It's been my in the field studies (lol) that have noticed a direct correlation between the METHOD used, and pike bite offs.


Twitching stickbaits on the surface for mule smallies, practically zero biteoffs when the odd bruiser pike smashes it.
Throwing baits with a spinner on it (Mepps, spinnerbaits, Spinrite) 50/50 pike biteoffs on flouro regardless of the lb test.
Jigging bass with a tube or bucktail and a pike hits it. 9/10 even with 60lb flouro I'll let it drop, go to jig it up and it will just be....gone. Like a pair of scissors were taken to the line.


My fav leader alternative in pike filled waters is cheap to me because I'm a Great Lakes fisherman, we use 7 strand wire line in the summer so I'll grab a dozen yards off a reel and use that as a leader if I know I'll be tripping into heavy pike lakes. You can use braided line knots with it, Uni or Palomar. 27lb wire is about as flexible as 40lb flouro these days, and utterly pikeproof."


Good stuff........yes jigs seemed to get nipped rather easily I noticed. You had them go through 60? I stopped using 40 when a rather smallish (30") pike ate a Cobra jighead and 6" shad combo about 3ft from the boat. I set up with a flick of the wrist and it was gone like it went through butter.

I had several in the 40" class this past summer and the 60floro seem to hold up very well even being exposed to their teeth. I oft wonder if little pikes teeth are sharper than big pikes teeth. What say you?
Lotw
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05/26/2018 08:51PM
Without a doubt they are. They are also closer together.
K52
member (12)member
 
05/27/2018 07:32AM
Will the fast tie work for tying lures to braid without a mono leader? Will that knot work with just braid. If so I'll pick one up this Friday on my way to the BWCA.
Othello
member (45)member
 
05/27/2018 07:51AM
The tie-fast will work for braid (it's what I used to secure the swivel on a lindy rig to braid), and it yields a good, strong knot. I will say that the limpness of the fine braid I was using made it a little trickier to push the line back through the loops on the tool, but not impossible. If I were just going braid to lure, I'd use a palomar knot. In the case of the lindy setup, that's a lot of rig to get back through the palomar knot loop, so the tie-fast/gryp knot made sense and worked well. All that said, I started using mono leaders this year because I felt that I may have been turning off all but the more aggressive fish with the visibility of the straight braid I had been using. Early results have been promising.
PikeEatPike
member (12)member
 
05/27/2018 08:11AM
The question is, are you fishing for pike, or just don't want to get bit off by the pesky snot rockets while you're fishing for smallies and walleye???

No leader at all 8 lbs. Mono.
mastertangler
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05/27/2018 08:38AM
K52: " Will the fast tie work for tying lures to braid without a mono leader? Will that knot work with just braid. If so I'll pick one up this Friday on my way to the BWCA."

I am certainly not suggesting the tie fast will not work for braid.......apparently it does but I have not tried it personally so I cannot weigh in. Nor have I ever used it for braid to fluorocarbon connections and in fact the concept never even entered my mind. Maybe I will tinker just for giggles.

I use the tie fast tool specifically to tie mono and fluorocarbon knots using the gryp knot. I have mentioned this before but it bears repeating. The Gryp knot USUALLY excels when dealing with Fluorocarbon from 4lb test to 100lb test and like wise with mono. But the variable which comes into play is the diameter of what you are tying off to. If it is smaller than the diameter of your line then the Gryp knot becomes less certain. There are, however, a plethora of other knots which excel at this scenario. Where the Gyp knot comes into its own is when tying off to diameters which are equal or larger than your line. In this the gryp knot is peerless and there are few fishing knots which perform this feat of physics so admirably. The other variable is the number of wraps around the tool..........the heavier the line the less wraps...........6 with 4lb, 5 with 50, 3 with 60, 80 or 100lb. You know it is right when it "clicks" into place and the tag end is straight up.

As per tying braid I usually, scratch that, I should say I always use a double line 1/2 uni knot. Simple enough and very strong. In other words double your braid and tie the first 1/2 of the uni knot and pull tight making sure the wraps don't jump around.

As per tying braid to fluorocarbon I love the FG knot. Examples of the fastest and easiest way to tie it is at Utube @ salt strong.
Grizzlyman
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05/27/2018 12:56PM
PikeEatPike: "The question is, are you fishing for pike, or just don't want to get bit off by the pesky snot rockets while you're fishing for smallies and walleye???


No leader at all 8 lbs. Mono."



??? Weird. This looks like a leader to me, and this is a still from a popular YouTube video I’ve seen many times...
PikeEatPike
member (12)member
 
05/28/2018 05:55AM
Mono leader, 8 lbs. main to 10 lbs. Little style spinner, and yes that is MY photo, taken 6/2/05. Ask mr.barley, he was there. Agnus!! So leader yes but not over kill.
Rs130754
senior member (79)senior membersenior member
 
05/28/2018 09:32AM
I was thinking about leaders as well. I want to avoid being bitten off by walleye and pike when fishing smallmouth. I found this product and was wondering if anyone had every used it. Seems like it might be a decent option.
http://www.aquateko.com/category_s/57.htm
https://youtu.be/O_aOqdGMECg
 
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