Hi Everyone .....

Bringing a first timer of the female persuasion - which will require a heavier than normal load.. Looking for a "put-in and paddle" trip as I tend to get grumpy being a pack mule on portages..

Looking at putting in a North Foul Lake EP 70 and heading through Little John Lake in the hopes to find one of the 3 sites open on John Lake (749, 748, 747)

My question is do most folks using this entry head to the "Foul" Lakes via the Royal River? Should I be concerned with finding an open site on John Lake?

Timing is early August - Thoughts or other EP's ideas (God willing permits are available) are welcome

Thanks!
RW

A permit for fowl lake specifies using the royal river to fowl lake. To camp on john lake you’d need a john lake permit. Fowls an interesting entry, it leads to some fantastic country however there is a fair amount of portages.

The bwca is looking crowded for august. Big lake has permits. You could camp on big lake and not portage at all.

jwartman59: "A permit for fowl lake specifies using the royal river to fowl lake. To camp on john lake you’d need a john lake permit. Fowls an interesting entry, it leads to some fantastic country however there is a fair amount of portages.


The bwca is looking crowded for august. Big lake has permits. You could camp on big lake and not portage at all. "

Thanks jwartman59... That's exactly the guidance & support I was looking for from this board... Much appreciated

Not quite clear why you will have a "heavier than normal load" due to having a first-timer or why you would be a pack mule for the trip, but it is only 3 portages to get to Moose Lake where you will likely find some peace and quiet. If the person you are bringing can't carry much weight, pack gear into smaller packs...yes, more trips, but then everyone can chip in with the multiple trips. If this still feels like too much, look to get a Moose Lake permit and just camp on Moose or Newfound.

I'd see if Hog Creek has any openings for your dates. That or Homer or....Sawbill. All pretty to very easy paddles and little to no portaging.

Also, the bringing lots of stuff because of them being a female is.....yeah. Odd comment at best?

I realize everyone is different and has different abilities & capabilities, but your first sentence makes it sound like you assume that the newbie of female persuasion will over pack and won’t carry her weight just because she is female.

I am of the female persuasion, my pack is just as heavy as my husbands, I carry it, I don’t bring more personal stuff than he does (ok, I bring a comb & swimsuit), and we equally share camp chores. I’d feel guilty if I let him do everything.

Take smaller packs & make more trips if need be. Discuss what she should bring. Or change your mind set about being a pack mule. Compromise may be needed so you both can enjoy the portages.

4keys: "I realize everyone is different and has different abilities & capabilities, but your first sentence makes it sound like you assume that the newbie of female persuasion will over pack and won’t carry her weight just because she is female.


I am of the female persuasion, my pack is just as heavy as my husbands, I carry it, I don’t bring more personal stuff than he does (ok, I bring a comb & swimsuit), and we equally share camp chores. I’d feel guilty if I let him do everything.


Take smaller packs & make more trips if need be. Discuss what she should bring. Or change your mind set about being a pack mule. Compromise may be needed so you both can enjoy the portages.
"

A little perspective here:

Many of the posts on this site giving advice for bringing a newbie significant other (female or not) to the BW often suggest bringing along a few extra creature comforts (collapsible chair, solar shower, mosquito tent, etc) to make the experience more enjoyable/palatable. Thus to help the newbie significant other choose to return in the future. (Here I am assuming the newbie is a significant other!? It could be his mom for all I know.)

While not passing judgement on this strategy, it is out there and it is apparent that the OP is embracing some form of the strategy. Ours is not to pass judgement on the nature of his relationship and the compromises made in the furthering of that relationship. They may discover more about themselves and each other through journeying together than you can impart to them in this little forum. In the end, everyone hikes their own hike and portages their own portage.

He is being honest in his preference for not being a "pack mule" for a trip of this nature. Please accept his current reality and make entry point suggestions that further that goal.

To that end -

There was just a thread about the number of permits being cancelled as you near your entry date:
Who says permits are not available?

You can see this happening on recreation.com So perhaps you can pull a permit just to make sure you have one and change up for a more desirable entry if one comes available as you approach your entry date.

I like several of the ideas already mentioned:

Sawbill (#38) - The Sawbill/Kelso/Alton loop offers very short portages and nice campsites. Lots of day trip options here.

Hog Creek (#36) - To Perent Lake. Not much in the way for day trip options though.

Homer Lake (#40) Easy in and out. Some day trip options.

You might also consider:

Sea Gull Lake (#54) - Lots of sites on Sea Gull and a relatively short portage to Alpine Lake. Many day trip options.

Little Indian Sioux North (#14). A couple of relatively short portages bring you to the Pauness Lakes. Lots of day trip options here.

There are BW style campsites on lakes that are not in the BW. E.G.:
Poplar Lake (See entry #47 Lizz Lake) This lake has a couple of campsites that are not in the BW.

Ham Lake (#50 - Cross Bay Lake) Ham Lake is not in the BW but has 4 BW style campsites.

You would need Day Use Permits to make day trips into the BW from those campsites.

Hope you and your female friend enjoy your trip!

you need to have the discussion with her , about what to bring and show her the map. distance and elevation.

use these words. you need to find the happy spot, when packing. between pack what you need and what you want to have.

i have seen a guy do it all in a day pack, sleeping bag /spork/ metal cup/underwear and socks for his personal kit. pack weight less than 20 pounds.

i have seen lots of 80 pound packs , also. with stuff that is never used and just gets wet and heavier.


that guy above was filthy dirty, when he came out, he would stay in someone elses tent and we had communial cook pots and food bags. it may skew his weight numbers. but he brought what he actually needed. you dont need 3 different bathing suits and 5 changes of clothing.

Thanks for all the input.... as many surmised, yes bringing my significant other and the goal is to provide her a positive first time experience - a load the canoe and go trip and hopefully lead to more.....

With that said - I Landed a permit for "John Lake EP69" which has 3 campsites and a daily quota of 1 going in on a Tuesday.. Should I be concerned about getting one of the 3 campsites? If the 3 are taken what would be my fall back plan?

DMan5501: "Thanks for all the input.... as many surmised, yes bringing my significant other and the goal is to provide her a positive first time experience - a load the canoe and go trip and hopefully lead to more.....


With that said - I Landed a permit for "John Lake EP69" which has 3 campsites and a daily quota of 1 going in on a Tuesday.. Should I be concerned about getting one of the 3 campsites? If the 3 are taken what would be my fall back plan?"

Well, first the obvious - I don't think that Pine Lake is a option. You would have to leave the BW proper to re-enter at Pine Lake.

So the remaining question is whether you could enter at John Lake and finding all campsites open continue on to the Fowl Lakes or do you have to cross the 210 rd. portage to East Pike?

Since there are separate entry points/permits for each direction, I would say that you would have to cross the 210 to East Pike. I would say that this is certainly the intent of the permits for each lake. (The note about the portage on the maps section here says the 210 is mostly flat and good walking.)

Technically, since you don't leave the BW to change directions, you could make the case for going to the Fowl Lakes, but . . . .

You might make a call to the FS to ask.

Remember my suggestion above to check for a more desirable entry point permit as you get closer to your date.

The other thing you might or might not know, you are about as far from any "services" as you can get up the Arrowhead Trail. Its a long way back to Grand Marais if you have to bail out early. Even the Sawbill Trail has Sawbill Outfitters out at the end for some services out there.

Hope you both have fun!

I'll build on a couple of posts above to offer that PakSak Outfitters will tow you out of Fall Lake EP up through Pipestone Bay. You could paddle over to a couple of campsites on Basswood. It would give you some options such as visiting Upper Basswood Falls, Pipestone and Jackfish Bays and some of the islands in Basswood. Just a thought.

In my experience earlier this summer, you will most likely be able to use one of the campsites on John Lake. At 1pm on a Friday, only 1 was being used and that group had just shown up. East Pike is your fall back, chances of that lake filling are pretty much nil. But that portage is in some rough shape in terms of downed trees...on the positive, the path itself is decent.

I encourage you to at least do a day trip with portaging so you don't give a false impression on this first trip. We always like to include some portaging for first-timers so they understand the whole experience. We just don't overdo it (example: 3 night trip Sag---Red Rock Lake---Seagull. Easy portages).

Have a great trip.

When I started taking my SO, we had a very real conversation about how these trips were. We discussed what clothes could be brought, the sleeping arrangements, tent, pad, sleeping bag. We talked about how much her pack would weigh. I didn't sugar coat anything. I would rather her tell me that it wasn't as tough as she thought it would be, rather than hearing about why I didn't set the expectations realistically.

Since her first trip, we've added a cot for her, a REI camp chair and a few other things, but she realizes that if its added for her, there's a good chance she'll be carrying it. Now when its just her and I, we do bring a lot more luxury items, because we are both good with the extra weight and space taken. When we go with the group, we limit luxury items because we travel a lot farther.

I think a lot of times on these boards the comments tend towards "you don't get the BWCA experience without a bunch of portages".

Most of the "newbies" we have brought up are new to canoeing, wilderness camping, and backpacking. I always felt throwing them into all 3 agressively was not the right approach.

When our groups grew larger, we did paddles to base camps on Seagull the first few years. . .no portages with gear. Then we had everyone do day trips with just day packs and canoes to other lakes to experience portages without packs.

We then moved to Alpine sites (one portage) and Red Rock (two portages).

What I found out is that for many, the BWCA experience is simply about being out there in the wilderness setting. We go late September so we dont see any other people and tend to see lots of animals (moose).

Now after 15 years, if I had all three camps vote on it they would vote to do no portage base camp trips, or minimal portages. . ..and spend the extra time fishing and exploring.

I have brought more than a few first timers out. What I would say is, it's paradise already. If you get them there, and they are warm and dry with a full belly, and they still can't enjoy it, then don't take it personally. If you want her to enjoy herself so you can do these trips with her for years to come, tell her that.

The main thing is to avoid being a worrywart or, as alluded to before, avoid begrudging her for carrying less than you. If someone normally likes spending time you, but you turn into a monster on a portage, they are not going to want to be on a portage with you again!

afromaniac: "I have brought more than a few first timers out. What I would say is, it's paradise already. If you get them there, and they are warm and dry with a full belly, and they still can't enjoy it, then don't take it personally. If you want her to enjoy herself so you can do these trips with her for years to come, tell her that.


The main thing is to avoid being a worrywart or, as alluded to before, avoid begrudging her for carrying less than you. If someone normally likes spending time you, but you turn into a monster on a portage, they are not going to want to be on a portage with you again!"

+1!

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is to try to get in early. Since it is an easy entrance people may not leave as early as campsites further in, but it you are on the lake and see people packing up their campsite to leave you will have a better chance of getting a site. It's controversial to bug people in their site to ask if they are leaving, but you can usually tell if people are packing up from afar.