I was in two weeks ago and had an interesting conversation with the outfitter as he was driving me up to the EP.

He was talking about the credit card fees are really tough to swallow in this economy.

So often we as a society simply have gotten so used to swiping the plastic, we don't think about the impact it has on small business.

I asked if they took checks, and he said yes. So in the future, I will always ask the outfitters if they prefer checks.

Of course I will have to bring extras as it has been so long since I actually wrote one, I will screw it up as I write it.

Just something to consider.

Good points. Some places don't take cards for that reason. And if you can help out the outfitter, great. But my assumption is that credit card fees are just part of the cost of doing business, and are factored in to what is being charged. And, as such, some businesses offer a discount for cash.

I've always been a cash man myself. Maybe it's my upbringing. I'll bet outfitters really enjoy getting cash. Something solid about getting the cash.

Except for mailing a depost-cash here too, I think they like it.

I was going to write a check for that very reason but my outfitter suggested waiting until the end of trip because I wasn't sure what day we would be coming out. Well, one day we got soaked along with the check and it was pretty much worthless after that.

Dave

mntentnman,

If the credit card company finds out you offer a cash discount they can cancel your ability to use them as a breech of contract. Busnisses that advertise a "Cash Discount" run that risk.

Same thing if they put up a sign saying minimum charge amount.

Your right it should be a cost of doing bussiness, but If I can help them out in anyway, a check doesnt' hurt me or them.

As far as Cash? Whats that, I married with 2 kids.

Corsair,
Are you saying that from a position of personal knowledge (i.e. banker, employee of credit card company, etc.) or is it speculation on your part? I see signs on counters many, many places that say "$5.00 minimum for credit/debit cards". Even the place I get my haircut - "Haircuts $10.50 or $10.00 cash".

Can't be that big of a deal whether it's part of the contract or not.

As for the outfitters accepting credit cards for payment then paying a percentage for that service, it's simply part of the cost of doing business. All businesses need to figure the credit card charges into their overhead just like they have to figure the cost of the electric bill.

However, paying cash is still a nice gesture - virtually like giving the outfitter a "tip" - since they won't have to pay the credit card their percentage for that transaction.

Visa at the bottom of page nine of the Visa rules And Mastercard Section 2-21 to 2-22 Well according to the Visa and Mastercard Rules, they can offer a cash discount. I was going on what the outfitter told us. But it also shows that business can not charge a minimum. So I was half right, lol. The whole point of this post was to make people aware of this, Yes it is a cost of doing business, I am not arguing that, If you want to pay credit fine. I'm not arguing that. But I will ask if they prefer check and I will pay by check in the future.

Yeah businesses that put a sign up that says, "$5.00 minimum (or any minimum) for credit card use," are in violation of their agreement with the credit card companies. More business are putting signs up that say "We prefer you use cash if your bill is under $5.00" instead of the word minimum, which is more in accordance with their contract/agreement. Companies that still have those "Minimum" signs up, just haven't been busted yet. I see them alot in rural areas, especially when I go visit my parents in Iowa. I do know one of the gas stations in my home town did get in trouble and now switched to the "we prefer" sign---which I am always happy to comply with.

I am not sure what the consequences legally, if any, there are, but the credit card company can then revoke their privledges and levy fines, which would result in A LOT of money lost to that business in the future. All it would take is for one person to complain that their card was not accepted---even if the charge was under a dollar.

I do use credit alot myself mostly because I am responsible and pay the balance every month which usually nets me extras--cash back, REI points or cabelas points. I have gotten some nice gear I never would have just for buying stuff I always buy.

BUT---Corsair and others make some good points though.

T.

Usually CC companies charge 2 to 3 % of the charged amount depending on the card used. Amex is the highest.

Let me tell you what is worse yet:

REWARD CARDS!

We get charged double fees every time a customer uses a rewards card of some type. The "free" stuff you get (only 30% of users actually redeem rewards) is paid for by the business that accepts your card and its just another sales gimmick. I am not allowed to refuse rewards cards, but when asked, I tell every customer hgow they drive my costs up which drives my prices up. The last time I raised my wine prices, credit card fees were a specific motivator.

hummm?

Winemaker,

Good Info, that I did not know.

Wow winemaker! I also did not know that. Makes me want to do cash and check only. Except for the big box stores and stuff!

I also did not know about the rewards charges. We have an LL Bean rewards card.

Winemaker,

Do you have a website for your wine business?

Jay

Oak Hill Wines

If you prepare for your trip enough in advance you can "pre-pay" outfitters with checks. I've done this a couple of years. I paid my outfitter the deposit in Jan or so, then sent him a $50 check every month or so until my June trip. When I got there I already had a nice credit balance with them and it made paying the balance a lot easier.

Ozarker - I'm doing the same thing and my September trip is just about paid for.

I never knew that about rewards cards. What is the difference in fees to the outfitter between a rewards card and a plain old Visa, say if the total bill is $500?

Jim

thought I would bump this back in, not for the debate, but for those who care to help out the outfitters by paying cash or check.

An estimated difference between a "regular" Visa or Mastercard and a "rewards" card; costs about an extra 1-1.5% more.

And corporate cards/business cards cost businesses more too. And Amex it the "worst" & most costly card for our business to accept & I truly appreciate it when a customer asks me which card I'd rather take, their Amex or a different one. I've had 3 customers this winter, making reservations, who asked me & had no problem using a different card instead of the Amex. Very considerate people! Thanks to you people, you know who you are (if you visit this site & I think you do) :-)

I like getting cash best & checks next. There is the assurance that, like cash, you get your money right away & you know it has been approved. But in the 30 years (yes it is our 30th Anniversary!), I've gotten less than 10 checks for outfitting that bounced and of those, only had 4 that I couldn't collect on.

What about debit cards that tap directly into a person's checking account?

If you can get the person to enter their pin number, that is the least.

But, unfortunately, some debit cards have to be entered as credit for some reason. (don't know why). Then it is the same rate as a "regular" credit card.

quote VoyageurNorth: "If you can get the person to enter their pin number, that is the least.

But, unfortunately, some debit cards have to be entered as credit for some reason. (don't know why). Then it is the same rate as a "regular" credit card."

If that happened, would you accept a tip? :-)

We pay our deposit for the next year when we end our trip for that year. Always cash cuz cash is KING

We always pay cash. My brother and I run a construction company and have had people ask if we take credit cards. Between workmans comp. insurance, liability insurance and taxes. Were at 50cents on the dollar prior to payroll and material expenses there is absolutely no room.

And then you get to be Number One in the next year's reservation database! :-)

Of course Pax, we always consider you number one and save you that distinction even if someone else made next year's reservation before you were able to.

Koda, tips are always accepted & appreciated, no matter how they are paid.

In fact, if a customer wants to leave a tip for an employee, usually we "eat" the percentage that the credit card charges & the employee gets the whole thing.

quote VoyageurNorth: "And then you get to be Number One in the next year's reservation database! :-)

Of course Pax, we always consider you number one and save you that distinction even if someone else made next year's reservation before you were able to."

Isn't that sort of like being #42 in your program but #1 in your heart? ;-)

Great information, I never thought about it. I used my card for my deposit for this year trip but I will be asking Mark if he would prefer the rest of his money in cash or a check.

Cash is king. Everybody knows what their costs are. We have all been planning trips for months. Our little card conveniences cost the outfitters who are already hurting from the present economy. Bring good old green back dollars. Make the outfitters smile.

:-) :-) :-) (lots of smiles!)

Thought I would bump this back up.

Well, updating, do any outfitters take (willingly) PayPal or Venmo (only heard of it) or other similar?

Just a guess but probably none take bit coin or nfts.

Many businesses in my area, restaurants in particular, have started giving a "Cash discount", meaning they mark the price up whatever the credit card fee is then discount it for cash/debit/check.

It's a good discussion point for sure!

billconner: "Well, updating, do any outfitters take (willingly) PayPal or Venmo (only heard of it) or other similar?


Just a guess but probably none take bit coin or nfts.


"

Aren't there fees with Paypal as well?

Cash is king. When we get digital currency the king will be dead.

I take credit cards in my business and offer a discount for cash or check. The discount is approximately what would have been charged by the credit card company (Square) for a client using a card to pay.

I was told a couple of years ago by a small-town bank president that I cannot add a fee for use of a credit card, but I can offer a discount for cash. A technical and semantic fine-point, but I get it.

Mike

We have always collected money from our trip mates and paid a deposit with a check. Then when we get to the outfitter we pay in cash or check. We pay the tow driver a tip in cash.

MikeinMpls: "I take credit cards in my business and offer a discount for cash or check. The discount is approximately what would have been charged by the credit card company (Square) for a client using a card to pay.


I was told a couple of years ago by a small-town bank president that I cannot add a fee for use of a credit card, but I can offer a discount for cash. A technical and semantic fine-point, but I get it.


Mike"

I believe it's technically against the use agreements for the card network to upcharge for CC fees. The cash discount is the way most get around it, but yeah, it really got me frustrated when places started upcharging for use of a check card. I almost never carry cash.

billconner: "Well, updating, do any outfitters take (willingly) PayPal or Venmo (only heard of it) or other similar?


Just a guess but probably none take bit coin or nfts."

Both PayPal and Venmo (owned by PayPal) charge businesses for transactions on their platforms.

For the first time this year I was told by Voyageur Outfitters that there was a 3% fee if paying by credit card or Venmo. Was no big deal to me to send in a check. I can't imagine any outfitter is making money hand-over-fist up there; most are probably doing it out of a love for what they do.

Although I do wonder if it would make more business sense to just slightly increase prices by 2 - 3% to absorb the credit card fees.

Although it is really funny when you think about it...the ACTUAL costs involved with the transport and processing of a physical check probably far outweigh a digital transaction. Seems odd that it costs more to send some 1s and 0s from my bank account to yours. (I understand there are security considerations and the like)

mirth: "

MikeinMpls: "I take credit cards in my business and offer a discount for cash or check. The discount is approximately what would have been charged by the credit card company (Square) for a client using a card to pay.



I was told a couple of years ago by a small-town bank president that I cannot add a fee for use of a credit card, but I can offer a discount for cash. A technical and semantic fine-point, but I get it.



Mike"

I believe it's technically against the use agreements for the card network to upcharge for CC fees. The cash discount is the way most get around it, but yeah, it really got me frustrated when places started upcharging for use of a check card. I almost never carry cash."

In most states it is legal to add a CC surchage. MN is one where it is legal. They just have to notify the CC company and be clear to customers upfront. The upcharge can't exceed 3%. I think it violates the CC/operator agreement to put a minimum charge use on the acceptance of a CC by a business. Many businesses will say "PLease no CC use for under 5$" to get around it but I think if they state "CC not accepted for $5 or under" they might get in trouble if reported. I always try to comply and also I am not a lawyer :) I could be wrong or misunderstood what I've been told and read...

On a major highway that I drive often there is an exit with 3 gas stations. They have these very tall signs that you can see from well over a mile away that advertise their gas prices. One is always 10 cents less per gallon than the other two and it's always the one with the least amount of cars at. The catch is that that price is only available if you pay cash and pay in advance inside the station, the credit card price is 5 - 8 cents higher than the others. Everyone has caught on to that gimmick and go to one of the other stations.

Ha reminds me of a saying that might fit....Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame me...

When I was selling retail gas the credit card fee was 3 to 5 %. I took a 3 cent markup. So I lost money every time someone used a credit card. I would gladly pay cash if I knew I could get a 3 to 5% discount on any purchase. I noticed that when buying a car they said they would charge me an extra 3% to use a credit card.

Seems to me - iirc - the DMV here in NY and previously in IL add a fee for registrations and licences for credit cards? NY say 1.95% for cc. Accepts cash or check. IL is not as clear.

OMG…I might have turned into my Dad. :) I Just read through the thread and saw I posted on it originally about14 years ago…almost saying the same thing I posted today.

T

I run a small business and no longer take credit card after seeing the total amount of fees added up for the entire last year. Wow no way jose. Sorry i don't care if you will lose out on your points or cash back earned.
Those payment methods and the crooked processing companies hurt small business.

SummerSkin: "Although it is really funny when you think about it...the ACTUAL costs involved with the transport and processing of a physical check probably far outweigh a digital transaction. Seems odd that it costs more to send some 1s and 0s from my bank account to yours. (I understand there are security considerations and the like)"

Exactly!!

When Ticket Master charged fees to email me tickets, I took the option for them to mail me the tickets!!

timatkn: "OMG…I might of turned into my Dad :). I Just read through the thread and saw I posted on it originally about14 years ago…almost saying the same thing I posted today.


T"

HAHAHA

Captn Tony: "When I was selling retail gas the credit card fee was 3 to 5 %. I took a 3 cent markup. So I lost money every time someone used a credit card. I would gladly pay cash if I knew I could get a 3 to 5% discount on any purchase. I noticed that when buying a car they said they would charge me an extra 3% to use a credit card."

This is common now with many companies.

many places i frequent these days take cash only, no credit card or personal check or that other funny money

Where the heck do you frequent?

I find the opposite...nobody even keeps cash on hand to give you change when you try to use cash.

Sparkeh: "I run a small business and no longer take credit card after seeing the total amount of fees added up for the entire last year. Wow no way jose. Sorry i don't care if you will lose out on your points or cash back earned.
Those payment methods and the crooked processing companies hurt small business. "

Not to mention chargebacks, if you have to deal with those. (My family has a small business that does.) Even if a charge is legitimate and you can prove it, the credit card company will side with the customer 99% of the time. Good luck fighting it. And they will KEEP their fee plus charge you more for the chargeback. It sucks for small businesses, but I think larger businesses just see at as "the cost of doing business."

This entire cash vs. credit card thing is very interesting. Some places will take only cash, and some will take only cards. A place like the XCel Energy Center won't take cash at all anymore. So I gotta buy my $12 beer with plastic. Rutabaga wouldn't take a card to pay for entry into Canoecopia...but the Alliant Center wouldn't take cash to pay for snacks.

I appreciate Corsair's comment about having Ticketmaster mail tickets rather than pay to have them emailed...That Ticketmaster would charge to send tickets in a manner that doesn't cost them anything (email), and NOT charge to send tickets that actually requires more labor on their end (USPS mail) just illustrates how ridiculous the Ticketmaster cartel is. I remember when they used to charge a "convenience fee." I never knew what that was, so once when I bought tickets I asked if the "convenience fee" could be waived if I chose to be inconvenienced. They said no, nor could they define what the fee was actually for.

End of Ticketmaster rant. Thanks for reading this far.

Mike

I've used a cash back card for everything possible for many years. In fact, I just pocketed $150 for spending the required $2000 in the first 3 months, meeting the come hither offer guidelines after getting a new card. I'm like, cool.

Cash is for kid's games, poker games and other such off-the-books type transactions between friends and I'm very sorry to hear that a $12 beer is what the market will bear.

uqme2: "I've used a cash back card for everything possible for many years. In fact, I just pocketed $150 for spending the required $2000 in the first 3 months, meeting the come hither offer guidelines after getting a new card. I'm like, cool.


Cash is for kid's games, poker games and other such off-the-books type transactions between friends and I'm very sorry to hear that a $12 beer is what the market will bear."

I recently heard an article on NPR talking about how lower income people and businesses are the ones paying for these rewards. All those rewards tend to go to wealthier and better off individuals, and the rewards are financed by all the credit card fees. Not everyone uses a card, but those fees do tend to drive up prices so everyone ends up paying for those rewards.

So while those rewards are cool, they really do benefit the ones who have the income to spend $2000 in 3 months at the expense of everyone else.

Not looking to start anything here, just something to think about with how these programs and fees are set up.

I’ve been trying to get my scout troop to accept CC at our annual fundraiser. For 3 years…I heard the argument about CC fees cutting into profit. Now I am treasurer…and we bit the bullet…boom sales went up 25%. Fees were negligible compared to the extra profit.

Popcorn… 50% increase in profit. Now we are almost 100% funding the scouting experience vs. having parents/scouts pay for each camp.

You also need to look at opportunity cost…how much are you missing by not offering the CC option…I can’t believe how much money we left on the table the last few years. Obviously every situation is different and in some cases CC option might be bad for a business. In other cases it definitely helps profits. Just throwing out the other side of evil CC.

T

A1t2o: "

uqme2: "I've used a cash back card for everything possible for many years. In fact, I just pocketed $150 for spending the required $2000 in the first 3 months, meeting the come hither offer guidelines after getting a new card. I'm like, cool.



Cash is for kid's games, poker games and other such off-the-books type transactions between friends and I'm very sorry to hear that a $12 beer is what the market will bear."

I recently heard an article on NPR talking about how lower income people and businesses are the ones paying for these rewards. All those rewards tend to go to wealthier and better off individuals, and the rewards are financed by all the credit card fees. Not everyone uses a card, but those fees do tend to drive up prices so everyone ends up paying for those rewards.


So while those rewards are cool, they really do benefit the ones who have the income to spend $2000 in 3 months at the expense of everyone else.


Not looking to start anything here, just something to think about with how these programs and fees are set up."

I read the same article. I definitely see what the professor interviewed was saying and get it for businesses. I disagree for individuals. I personally don’t know any “wealthy” people that take advantage of CC offers. I usually refer to them as middle class or lower middle class. Using a CC for the majority of expenses to get to $2000 in 3 months is hardly considered wealthy. That’s less than $700/month. Statistically speaking most Americans could easily do this just using it for food and gas. Whether “poor” or not.

A more legitimate argument I’ve heard is these CC companies dangle zero percent financing and CC rewards to people they know can’t afford it. Almost tempting them to make poor decisions so they can then rack up profits on finance charges. The rewards and 0% financing encourage debt/spending. I don’t think you can regulate that? Some of it is poor decision making, personal choice too. The CC don’t really want people like uqme2 to take advantage of the CC rewards. They lose money on those customers. They are counting on grabbing fiscally less responsible people who go into debt. For every Uqme2 there are probably 3 of the former. A lot of people don’t have financial discipline and a CC is a bad choice for them. That’s another evil side of CC use.

T

treehorn: "Where the heck do you frequent?


I find the opposite...nobody even keeps cash on hand to give you change when you try to use cash."

small mom/pop restaurants and stores. small town. not gas stations.

So I skimmed additions to a nearly 14 y/o thread and added my thoughts because I thought the $12 dollar beer was at a concert which I could maybe see considering concert ticket prices recently.

...

I'm sorry but a $12 beer at the XCel Energy Center for Copia is freaken outrageous!

uqme2: "So I skimmed additions to a nearly 14 y/o thread and added my thoughts because I thought the $12 dollar beer was at a concert which I could maybe see considering concert ticket prices recently.


...


I'm sorry but a $12 beer at the XCel Energy Center for Copia is freaken outrageous!"

Not sure what they charged for a beer at the Alliant Center (that is where Canoecopia is held) but the world's best chocolate ice cream was $8. And because we attended three days, I had three charges on my credit card for $8 ice cream. Sigh. I didn't drink any beer, but I really did have my ice cream! :-) (Once a year treat.)

That deep dark Zanzibar Chocolate ice cream is almost worth the trip from Michigan to Wisconsin!!

And I complained several times that I would have just liked to pay cash.

Mocha: "

treehorn: "Where the heck do you frequent?



I find the opposite...nobody even keeps cash on hand to give you change when you try to use cash."

small mom/pop restaurants and stores. small town. not gas stations."

Amish dont do cc and we buy fruits, vegetables, and dairy, as well as lumber to build a garage. Actually, the guys with snow plows, lawn mowers, and other such stuff all prefer cash. This is an area where cash is king. I see a lot more at the big stores here, even doctors offices, than where I lived before. It was a little strange at first, but used to it now.

billconner: "

Mocha: "

treehorn: "Where the heck do you frequent?



I find the opposite...nobody even keeps cash on hand to give you change when you try to use cash."

small mom/pop restaurants and stores. small town. not gas stations."

Amish dont do cc and we buy fruits, vegetables, and dairy, as well as lumber to build a garage. Actually, the guys with snow plows, lawn mowers, and other such stuff all prefer cash. This is an area where cash is king. I see a lot more at the big stores here, even doctors offices, than where I lived before. It was a little strange at first, but used to it now."

Very interesting. In my area…suburbs…CC is king. Your hired help can’t pocket cash/steal, if you are a small street vendor no one is going to rob you for your CC statements, people that use CC trend to spend money they won’t when using cash—so your cash flow can increase, Even now with our troop fundraising I had to leave the festival with 5-10K in backpack at Midnight each night, while our CC money was already deposited in the bank. Very nervous each night. So many places prefer CC I rarely carry cash, and write check?…that seems like ancient history :) The rare cases when I need to do that I feel like a kid doing it for the first time…

T

uqme2: " and I'm very sorry to hear that a $12 beer is what the market will bear."

This is the brunt of it. IF no one pays $12 for a beer, they would charge less. They are not going to sit on all of that concession staff, and full beer kegs. They would reduce their price.

Many casinos have started paying 6 to 5, rather than 3 to 2 on black jack. If everyone refused to play, when they pay 6 to 5, they would have to go back to 3 to 2.

When I see steak prices of $17 a pound, I won't that. I wait. Eventually they have sales, and charge under $10 a pound for that same steak. If everyone refused to pay $17, they have to sell the steaks, they would drop the price.

We are ALL paying the 3-7% on our purchases. Whether we pay cash or not, in most cases, it's already reflected in the price of goods. It's a little bit like when they were giving away a box of steaks, with a new windshield. The individual gets the steaks but the insurance company, and all who pay insurance, are on the hook for the cost of the windshield, and the box of steaks. They give a 1% cash back, and everyone thinks it's a good deal so they use their card, but in reality, we're all paying that 3%-7% of every transaction. Hidden inflation. I'm looking forward to digital currencies. It might not be bitcoin, but whatever it is, I'm guessing transaction fees will be a fraction of the 3-7%. It's ridiculous how much money Visa companies making. Can you imagine making 3% of the gross sales dollars in the world?

I swear the entire concept of Cabellas, is about consumers using their CC. Their products in their stores are over priced, compared to say Fleetfarm. What they really want to do, is have a rewards card, that everyone will use on a daily basis, and give the cc user a "free" $150 shopping spree once a year, as a thank you for spending 10k on their cc, and Cabellas earning $300-$700 off you. I think their number one goal is to issue CC's more than sell retail murch.

And we all just blindly pay it. It's a 3-7% tax on everything we buy, just for the convenience of using a plastic swipe card.

If back in the day, someone said to you... "someday, when you get paid every two weeks, it won't be by a physical pay check anymore, it will just be added directly to your bank account"... you probably would have believed. And then if they said, "and someday, you won't have to physically go to your bank anymore to pull cash, they'll just give you card you can swipe, and the money will come directly out of your account"... you would have hesitated a little on that one, but may have played along, and said ok, maybe. ... But then the guy after another beer, says "but for the convenience of using that card, EVERY retailer will have to pay 3-7% on every transaction"... you would have thought "no way"..."no way that's ever going to happen." but here we are. It really wasn't that long ago, that you couldn't use CC's at mcDonalds, or the movie theatre. It won't be that long, and soon you'll be paying in Bitcoin, or cardano, or some other digital currency, that won't be charging that 3-7%. But don't expect to happen without a fight, from the financial giants that are getting grossly rich off the current system.

Think about how pissed off you would be, if they upped your tax bracket from 28% to 35%. And we do it willingly with every purchase.

Cash.

Except when we do w week in one of their cabins, then it’s a check because that’s a lot of cash to carry.