Anyone ever used the NGM's. I just noticed them in a Piragis mag and wondered what they looked like compared to Fishr and McK. Thanks

National Geographic makes wonderful maps, but none will show the detail that is on a McKenzie or Fisher. Just my two cents.

I can't speak to the details listed on McKenzie or Fischer maps having used Voyager maps almost exclusively.

This year I purchased both the East and West BWCA maps by National Geographic. These maps show plenty of detail, listing every portage and campsite.

I have the complete set of all 10 Voyager maps of the BWCA. I. will be taking a couple that cover the area I will be in on this year's trip. In addition I will be taking. the East National Geographic map.

In my opinion if all you had with you on your BWCA trip were the National Geographic map or maps you would be perfectly fine navigating around anywhere in the BWCA.

I broke down and got two each of the east and west maps with the intent of putting them together into one big single map of the bwca. Scale of 1:70,000 (1 in=1.1 mi) makes it slightly larger than my book of plain paper Fisher maps -- with more details, topo lines, etc. -- but would not need a gigantic wall like I would after attempting the same project with my complete set of McKenzies (1:31,680 or 1 in=0.5 mi). A nice compromise scale.

btw: Do you think rubber cement would be the ticket on that coated paper, which seems heavier and more "plastic-like" than my other maps.

and, can you still buy rubber cement?

and, no, they are not what I'd recommend for navigation purposes.

So they have topo lines, land or water? And what is the overall size, are they to large to be practical?

Obviously the scale is quite different than the big 3. But there is enough detail that you could still use them to find your way around. IMHO the biggest thing you lose is the finer details of the contour lines for lake dropoffs. I use mine as an emergency backup.

TB

we use national geo maps backpacking in the west, for that they are just fine. canoeing in canada we use 1:250000 scale canadian topo maps. the national geo maps would be fine for navigating the BWCA, but i think that you are better off using the larger scale fisher / mackenzie type maps.

we used to use these beauties. note how portages start randomly.,campsites in the lake. they even stated that they were not to be used for navigation.

I received both of the NG maps as a Christmas present. Think that I will take one along this year as an emergency map. Will stow it away for a backup.

Could use, but so much more detail in the other maps.

Just my $.02.

Are they good wall maps?

Looks like they are yet, another viable option. Thanks for all your input.

I have many maps from Fisher that state they are not to be used for navigation. Personally, I need only a rough estimate of the lake to get an idea where things are at, and where I'm at. The NGMs are great for me, but I perfer the Fisher maps for purely nostalga purposes. Use either, you WILL be fine.

I have three sets - 1 for actually using for trip planning... and two to make a wall map (they are printed front and back). They are kind of unwieldy for tripping IMO, but maybe as a backup OR if you show up to take any permit available and want to make sure you are covered.

schweady - let me know what you end up using in your wall map project. Mine is probably not gonna happen until 2012.

It will wind up around 109"x44", give or take, with an irregular edge rather than a nice framable rectangle. Could maybe fill in with photos if I try to frame it. (That's a 4-foot stick, not a yardstick.)

It has topo contour lines but only at 50 ft intervals. No lake depth contours.

BW, you'll need 4 maps -- 2 east, 2 west -- to display on a wall.

fisher, McKenzie and voyageur maps are all produced by companies located in the upper midwest, i assume by people who actually paddle here. the National geo maps, i assume, are produced elsewhere, maybe with or without information from local outfitters and guides. (i am assuming this). i have only briefly glanced at these maps at REI, in the store they appeared adequate. however schweady's posted map demonstrates what i consider a major error in their cartographic technique. the highlighted info box is obscuring necessary shoreline info. also the heavy lines used for the border and other details and the oversized campsite symbols, etc often are done in a manner that neglects the fact that these maps are to be used for navigating. my two cents. by the way i usually love any map by national geo, i have boxes of them. but in this case i would stick with the locals.

Totally agree. McK is my map afield. NG would never be considered a complete navigational map. How many times have we lost all track of time in Hoigaard's, etc just gawking at the map collages covering an entire 2-story wall? This is my attempt at something a bit smaller-scale than 2 dozen or more stitched-together McKenzies... for quick reference while discussing routes on bwca.com, for instance.

national geo would be perfect for that. check out the kitchen wall paper in my brothers duluth compound, he has a similar map of the quetico in his spare house.

As I stated in a previous post on this subject, my map of preference while navigating the BWCA are those produced by Voyager. I am sure that McKenzie and Fisher are just as good. Between the 3 it probably just comes down to personal preference and what you were exposed to on your first experience to the BWCA.

Having said that, I also own both the East and West Boundary Waters regional maps produced by NG. They show every lake, every portage, and every campsite. The scale is different than the 'traditional' maps like Voyager. But to get from A to B, anywhere in the BWCA, these NG maps will do that.

They don't contain information about the specises of fish in each of the lakes,or interesting historical information, like my Voyager maps do but they will allow you to navigate easily. In fact they are based on USGS topo maps just in a different scale. Using any of these maps is not right or wrong.

If I only had the NG map and a compass, I could 'navigate' to anywhere and from anywhere in the BWCA. So could anyone else who has the least little bit of experience using a map and compass. I guess my military training and expereince in real world land navigation (prior to the GPS systems currently in use today), makes me a bit biased here. I find land navigation very simple, daytime or nighttime, desert or jungle, mountains or flat land.

It all comes down to price and personal preferences.

quote speopl1443: "...I also own both the East and West Boundary Waters regional maps produced by NG. They show every lake, every portage, and every campsite. The scale is different than the 'traditional' maps like Voyager. But to get from A to B, anywhere in the BWCA, these NG maps will do that... If I only had the NG map and a compass, I could 'navigate' to anywhere and from anywhere in the BWCA."

So, without looking at any other map but the NG, how many rods long is the portage between Snow Bay and North Lake ?

quote schweady: "

quote speopl1443: "...I also own both the East and West Boundary Waters regional maps produced by NG. They show every lake, every portage, and every campsite. The scale is different than the 'traditional' maps like Voyager. But to get from A to B, anywhere in the BWCA, these NG maps will do that... If I only had the NG map and a compass, I could 'navigate' to anywhere and from anywhere in the BWCA."

So, without looking at any other map but the NG, how many rods long is the portage between Snow Bay and North Lake ?
"

I'm a little bored right now so I'll take the bait. I just love trick questions by people who think they are cute or making a point...

My NG East map does not show a portage. It shows Snow Bay and North Lake are connected by a stream. Touche' Point 1 to you.

I then went to my Voyager map and the maps on this website and guess what???? Neither of these show a portage.

A possible explanation is that a portage may be necessary only during low water situations. I have never visited this area so I have no idea why.I doubt if maps show beaver dams. I've seen some big ones that require portages not shown either.

I'm assuming that there is a portage shown on the Fisher or McKenzie map.If the point you are making is that NG maps are not suitable for anything other than decorating a wall, I guess the same holds true for Voyager maps and the maps found on this website.

If I ever find myself in this area of the BWCA and I happened to be using my Voyager or NG maps, I'm sure I would have no trouble finding my way from Snow Bay to North Lake. Most portages are fairly easy to see and a non-navigable stream (low water or rapids) would be a pretty good indication that a portage was required.

I'm sure we can all find differences between the big three or the NG maps. Trying to use this as a reason why NG maps are no good is pretty lame.

NEXT????

here is next. i have worked as a land surveyor and GIS mapping tech for several twin cities counties and private engineering firms. i am used to working with an accuracy of within one hundredth of an inch. in my county position I would reject proposed plats that did not meet this minimum standard of accuracy.

these maps may be outside of my area of expertise, yet as a wilderness traveler with many years of experience, i recognize some of the weaknesses in these maps. i am sure that for 98% of the region the maps are adequate for most people needs. i again will refer back to the text box that obscures a significant region between Lac la croix and north lake. on the NGS map it is obscured. no information is available at all. the text box limits or totally eliminates all details between these two lakes. i have taken the liberty of posting a scanned portion of a map published by the mckenzie map company. i have no legal right to publish this map, but in this case i hope copyright laws will be ignored.

again, for the BWCA mapping needs, i urge you to use locally produced maps. i am sure that this map will convince you that NGS maps ignore the needs of actual BWCA paddlers.

Personally, I prefer Apple Jacks to Fruit Loops. Though they are likely equally over artificially sweetened they don't seem so much that way.

My first trip I used a voyage map, it was plenty adaquate, but when introduced to McK I will likely stick with it-just love those lake contours.

speopl1443: Although I don't see where you found that stream on NG's East map (it's one of the westernmost spots in the entire BWCAW), thanks for playing along. No way was my question meant to point out a possible flaw in your stellar navigational ability, rather to highlight NG's apparent disregard for the canoeist's needs, as jwartman59 pointed it out. I mean, why not put those text boxes in Canada somewhere? and here, I had originally posted the detail sample to help answer a question by Richwon4 (original poster) about topo lines.. (oh, and yeah there is no portage, but you will find the biggest honkin' beaver dams imaginable.)

I started with those tiny Fisher maps, and on my first BW trip the group had only one real map; the rest of us had just copies of a black and white sketch at an even smaller scale. Now, we carry McKenzies (along with my gps; that'll just have to be okay with everyone, too). Use whatever you want. My NG set is just for at home planning and dreaming, along with my Fisher book.

I bought 2 west and 2 east maps to put up on my wall. It looks great. First I put up some bulletin boards. Then I matched the maps up to each other (I had to fold down the edges so I could match them up) and pinned the maps to the bulletin board. I added a few pictures around the map. I use pins to show which entry points I've entered and which campsites I've stayed at. As a finishing touch, my wife made the sign above the map.

I wouldn't use them as my primary navigation tool, but they would probably work as a backup. I noticed that all of the campsites on the Pow Wow Trail are missing, but they are also missing on Voyageur maps. I usually use McKenzie maps for my navigation, but I don't see a difference between using Fisher, McKenzie, and Voyageur. Just personal preference. There are many other posts on this topic, so I won't go into it.

I bought these NG ones just for trip planning but I would feel completely confident using them for travel. I will still use the larger maps as my primary but I think these will be along as a back up this spring. I've thought about buying a second set since I've always loved the big wall maps at some of the stores and after seeing some of these examples I really want a second set to make a wall map now.

Very nice, bstrege. I'm thinking that if I want it mine up on permanent display, it may need to be the garage. There are a couple of spots in the house with the wall space needed, but not so sure it would go over real big.

quote schweady: "Very nice, bstrege. I'm thinking that if I want it mine up on permanent display, it may need to be the garage. There are a couple of spots in the house with the wall space needed, but not so sure it would go over real big.
"

I'm lucky my wife loves it as much as I do.

quote bstrege: "I bought 2 west and 2 east maps to put up on my wall. It looks great. First I put up some bulletin boards. Then I matched the maps up to each other (I had to fold down the edges so I could match them up) and pinned the maps to the bulletin board. I added a few pictures around the map. I use pins to show which entry points I've entered and which campsites I've stayed at. As a finishing touch, my wife made the sign above the map.

I wouldn't use them as my primary navigation tool, but they would probably work as a backup. I noticed that all of the campsites on the Pow Wow Trail are missing, but they are also missing on Voyageur maps. I usually use McKenzie maps for my navigation, but I don't see a difference between using Fisher, McKenzie, and Voyageur. Just personal preference. There are many other posts on this topic, so I won't go into it."

Is your wife making those for sale?? Nice job. Did anyone consider cutting off the text around the maps? I'm dithering on that one. Like the idea of cork behind it...

Thanks for the motivation. Maybe during spring break!

I'm leaving all the text boxes which cover parts of Canadian waters, etc. They repeat themselves a few times when all 4 maps are displayed and there is some overlap which hides some text (most notably at the top between maps '2' and '3,') but it's all halfway interesting info, even though not all much that is new. Plus, this leaves all of the lat/long info around the border and the symbol keys.

I've matched and trimmed 2 of the 3 overlapping borders so far. It takes a little bit of notching to make sure that some info is not covered up; some labeling details of features near the margins varies ever so slightly from map to map. It's a very "plasticky" coated paper, a bit heavier than the McKenzie maps. Makes it very easy to cut accurate lines by slowly pushing a sharp scissors, ala Christmas gift wrap. Have a few scraps to practice gluing.

Resurrecting this month-old thread to show progress on my maps. Rather my map... now that it is all joined together.

The notching was great fun. You can see the spots where I cut around to allow things like "Tea Lake" and "Little Dry Lake" and "SHAGAWA" and "Crossman Point" to remain uncovered, as these were not printed on the left map in places that would match up well when joined. I also notched it at the bottom to allow a logical, continuous border with the lat/long info.

Before joining:


After joining:






Rubber cement got kind of messy on that plastic-like material and made it bubble a lot more than expected. I was pretty sure that the rippling would tame down as it dried, but it took forever and I didn't want to risk it. It didn't really form a solid, permanent bond on the test pieces that I tried first, either. So, I wound up rubbing that off and using Scotch Double Sided Permanent Tape 1/2". It's labeled "Photo Safe," so I'm hoping it won't yellow. Not in my lifetime, I don't suppose. And it would probably take a lot to bleed through that plastic/paper medium, I think.

It wound up 110.5" x 45". For now, it goes in a poster tube but comes out to answer trip planning questions and when playing "Name That Lake." (which is apparently on hiatus...?)

Finished product:

Where do you buy these National Geographic maps?

I bought mine at latitudes and longitudes map store, I think that's what it is called. in st.loius park I believe. they also have them at cabelas I know. I'm sure just about anywhere that sells BWCA maps will have them like REI, etc..

Map looks good schweady.

Thanks. Yeah, the usual camping stores and big box bookstores will have them. I happened to get mine during a 10% off anything email promotion at one of my new favorite outdoor shops to visit when in Duluth: Trailfitters, in the Fitger's Building.

Gander Mountain has them also.

Midwest Mountaineering and REI have them as well... so does Amazon.com

Schweady - well done!! Thanks for the final measurements and details. Now I gotta find a wall that has 110" of free space. My office might do, but part of it would be hidden behind where the printer is and I like to be able to get up as close as possible to all parts of it. Might have to re-arrange.

BWP: Around 4.25" of that width is the cover art, legend, scale, and copyright info for the East map which winds up bordering the entire right side (not seen in my final product pic). This is all duplicated on West map (seen at the top left), so it could actually be left out if you were pinched for space. You can see in his pics above where bstrege eliminated both of the cover/legend panels for his project, winding up with a 106.25" x 40.75" final size.