Hey all - Is it possible to adopt a kneeling paddling position in a Wenonah Advantage with a tractor seat?

Thanks in advance

Chris

It's not real comfortable. I wouldn't plan on doing much of it.

Even with the optional small kevlar seat there is not much room. I know it's uncomfortable for me!

butthead

I know an istructor who does this regularly. with abig kneeling mat and she is small that might help

I use to do it in my Solitude. Put the seat way back, put a small pad on the front of the pedestal stand to rest your butt on, put one leg down each side of the pedestal stand as you kneel right in front of it.

For what its worth, Dave Kruger deigned Advantage as a sit an Swith racer/tourer. To change that paradym is problematical. The bow will stick, the stern will skid. There are lots of good kneeling oriented hula available, get a boat designed for the disciplne.

quote CharlieWilson: "For what its worth, Dave Kruger deigned Advantage as a sit an Swith racer/tourer. To change that paradym is problematical. The bow will stick, the stern will skid. There are lots of good kneeling oriented hula available, get a boat designed for the disciplne."

OK, thanks much, I'll keep looking!!

quote CharlieWilson: "The bow will stick, the stern will skid. "

I know that feeling from a number of different canoes.

What if a bench seat were installed so that the overall mass was in the 'designed' place?

Calling experienced Advantage owners....

I revived this thread because I purchased one this weekend. I had 2 boats to pick from- one with the slider seat and the other with a web seat that is height adjustable. The height adjustable seat would have been a better choice to allow for the possibility of kneeling but I decided the slider seat would be better for me as it would allow more options for trimming the boat to my needs. Never having paddled an Advantage, I wanted to be able to play with weight shifting to find what works best for me. I think I could probably kneel in my new boat but other than assuming "the position" didn't paddle it that way. My reason for reviving this is not really about kneeling but something CharlieWilson said above was interesting.

So yesterday I headed for a local lake to paddle in some highish wind conditions. Stopped at a gas station and picked up a 40-pound bag of salt for ballast. Placed said bag right behind my seat placed roughly in the mid slide position, 170 pounds of me in that and a 10 pound day bag in front of me. Off I go downwind (winds at 15 gusting to 20 mph) had great control. Then I decide to paddle broadside to the wind/waves to see how that goes. Found out that I easily got stuck broadside and very difficult to get unstuck either to escape downwind or upwind. Felt like the stern was "sticking" and the bow would not "skid" using Charlie's terms. Even when I planned my escape downwind thinking the wind would catch my bow, an oncoming wave would grab the stern and force me back broadside. "Ahhah" I thought, need to get my bow higher for more wind catch. I push the salt bag to the rear and get ready to wind-vane around. Nope, that didn't do it either. Seemingly counterintuitive, I pulled the salt bag back behind the seat and then adjusted the seat forward to get more weight forward. Now with more weight forward, I was able to turn the boat- not easily but possible.

So with what I observed from a sit and switch perspective and what Charlie said would happen if kneeling, I think getting less "stick" in the stern and more "stick" in the bow by kneeling may have been a good thing.

What have you experienced Advantage paddlers found works best for you in windy conditions?

When in doubt with a loaded canoe, I throw a rock up in the bow... this is strictly used head on in high wind. Last time was around 10 years ago coming out of Snowbank against the 2' white rodeo but it helped me grab.

Hex

"What have you experienced Advantage paddlers found works best for you in windy conditions?"

Can only reference my own use but I tend to keep the stern planted in tough conditions and sweep the bow. Yet planting the bow and loosening the stern in some conditions. I trip with 2 packs, 20 pounds in front of the foot brace and 35 pounds behind the seat. Between sliding the seat and packs I find adjustments easy, quick and reversible. I tend to rely more on feel of how the canoe is handling at the time and adjusting as needed. Hope that explanation is a bit clearer than mud.
I know what the "stuck" situation is and try to keep ahead of such. If stuck I usually slid as far back as possible, plant the stern and sweep or push the bow in the needed direction. To me the easiest to recover from, and continue as best trimmed for the conditions.

butthead

quote hexnymph: "When in doubt with a loaded canoe, I throw a rock up in the bow... this is strictly used head on in high wind. Last time was around 10 years ago coming out of Snowbank against the 2' white rodeo but it helped me grab.
Hex"

Thanks Hex. I've done the same when in a Prism with high winds and it works. But the Advantage acted completely opposite of the Prism. The Prism's problem was it caught too much wind on the bow and refused to be paddled broadside w/o a rock upfront.

I hate to weight a solo boat that way...best way to deal with REAL big waves is to have weight centered in the middle to allow for the "bobber" affect of going up and over waves. Next time I get to play in the wind, I'll bring another weight to be my rock.

quote butthead: I tend to rely more on feel of how the canoe is handling at the time and adjusting as needed. Hope that explanation is a bit clearer than mud."

Thanks butthead, I need to acquire the "feel";) The feel is different, I think, than what I expected.

I don't mind traveling broadside to waves, if that's the way I want to go. But I don't want to be stuck and unable to turn when a set of whitecaps is bearing down on me.

What Butthead says is the same as what I do in my advantage. I usually have less weight in the front than he does, but sliding the seat will typically do all I need to distribute weight and turn in the wind instead of getting stuck. I did experiment with taking the seat out and installing a 2.5" thick foam seat on the bottom of the boat and using the rear thwart as a back rest but found that I ended up sitting a bit too low in the boat. It seemed to work well if I were using a double bladed paddle, but not with the regular canoe paddle.

quote BeaV: "

quote butthead: I tend to rely more on feel of how the canoe is handling at the time and adjusting as needed. Hope that explanation is a bit clearer than mud."

Thanks butthead, I need to acquire the "feel";) The feel is different, I think, than what I expected. "

Yes I think it is quite different from most. Paddled tandems and many solo canoes by myself and thinking about it now, come to the idea you mention. Most canoes respond better with the bow planted sweeping and pushing the stern about. The Advantage with the square stern rake seems to prefer the bow to change than the stern. Guess I adjusted to the difference with little though, just did it!

butthead

Just curious why would you kneel in an Advantage? I have many years experience in an Advantage. It would make a terrible white water canoe and I never felt the need to get lower even in choppy water.

quote Blatz: "Just curious why would you kneel in an Advantage? I have many years experience in an Advantage. It would make a terrible white water canoe and I never felt the need to get lower even in choppy water. "

Two reasons that I see why I would like the option to kneel would be to gain more stability in big waves (and as Charlie Wilson above mentioned, maybe to change how the boat is acting) and change positions during a long day in the boat to ease pressure off my duff and change up paddling muscles alittle.

For me, big waves mean those which will capsize me and long days are 12 or more hours.

I'll be paddling a couple big lakes, Mille Lacs and Leech Lake, this long weekend. Hoping for some big waves so I can find the unstability point of me in the Advantage.

I have paddled an Advantage since 86. My feeling is that it prefers to paddle stern heavy- I've taken long trips with just one pack (placed behind the seat) and have rarely had troubles trimming weight with the slider (most of the time I paddle with the seat all the way stern). In winds from the side the boat "wants" to point (bow first) into the wind, the stern of the boat being pushed out. If I can't keep the boat pointed usually pushing the pack sternward helps. My advice for side winds "Weight the stern." I've occasioned difficult (and possibly foolish) crossings where I've paddled C-strokes on one side for miles to keep the boat on track. On the other hand I think the Advantage is uncomfortable (to say the least) taking waves broadside- In tough conditions I invariably quarter the waves and zig and zag rather than run parallel to the waves.
I have large feet and kneeling is not a possibility unless I take my boots off. It does make the boat more stable. I can get a similar sense (much less crippling for my aged knees) by putting the foot brace into position that I can keep constant firm pressure on it- thus connecting my mass better to the boat as well as giving better ability for quick lateral adjustments in big waves or whitewater.

Thanks Banksiana- your vast experience in this boat is confirming what I am learning. I kneeled in mine and found it paddled just fine and was more stable but legs/boots were very much confined by the slider seat. Hard to "un kneel" back to sitting position.

Paddled broadside in some bigger waves on Leech Lake and felt uncomfortable if wave crests were steep or breaking. Plus this is the wettest boat I've paddled under these kind of conditions.

Yeah- I simply avoid paddling broadside in anything beyond moderate waves. Maybe less than moderate (I'm a broadside chicken). Heading into the waves, or with them or quartering the boat is remarkably dry considering its low freeboard in center. Paddling broadside they will come over- I tell you I get squeamish from the sense of instability and start zigging and zagging well before the water comes over the top. I don't have the big water experience you do, and though I've paddled some big waves in cold water I felt that I was not being wise. I imagine on Leech even a 10mph wind can throw up some rollers.

I fret about wind and reach when I paddle the Advantage. The colder the water the more I fret. I prefer heading into the waves to running with them (when running into them you generally start with the waves big, running with them it's hard to tell how big they will get as you extend the reach) and prefer running with them to broadside.

If you're thinking to tripping in "all weather" conditions consider having Dan Cooke sew a cover for you- it'd cut that wind push down as well.

Just remember it was designed as a flat water racing canoe. Properly placing your slider and using a foot brace is your best friend in this boat. I started tripping with this boat in the early 90s and never felt the need to keel. It actually works just fine in wind and waves with good paddling technique. I did a lot of sit and switch which is what the good folks at Wenonah intended.