The fishing was a big focus on this trip. Questions, comments or even suggestions are all appreciated.

Mighty Musclow

I read the whole thing. Thoroughly enjoyed it.

Nice report!

I can totally relate to "wasting" the prime AM fishing time on trips. Every year I promise myself that I will hit the water before the sun comes up but the lure of the sleeping bag or relaxing sipping camp coffee is often too strong.

Sounds like you found a nice balance of fishing, camp chores and relaxation. Can't ask for much more than that

Nice trip

T

Nice report MT - enjoyed the read - thanks!
Tim

no i didnt read alot, but the pics are awesome , thanks for sharing MT

Nice trip report, but i'm not sure about the live trees you cut down to "clean up" the camp and to make a better tent pad.

not something many of us would do. pretty much against the leave no trace principle IMO.

quote Kiporby: "Nice trip report, but i'm not sure about the live trees you cut down to "clean up" the camp and to make a better tent pad.


not something many of us would do. pretty much against the leave no trace principle IMO."

I understand and accept your opinion. A few thoughts however........yup I admit to leaving a fairly heavy footprint where I stayed at. From the construction of the campsite, to the clearing of the woods to enhance the site to the making of a trail. I think I can safely say it was the antithesis of "leave no trace".........but only if one were to take that quite literally.

Campsites by their very nature require that land is to be cleared. Any campsite that you have stayed at was quite different than its original state that I can assure you. Do you apply the same critique of those who constructed those sites as you happily put up your tent?

As per removing live trees........That was less than 5% of what was done and then only if they were deemed unworthy. The area does not lack for trees I can assure you ;-)
Most of what was done was the removal of dead trees, fallen and rotting logs and the pruning of live trees. Such things are a requirement if one is to have a site. I used the pruned branches to line and level my tent pad.

To truly LNT I would of been limited to my Porch which is a flat rock.

Well, the park policy pamphlet is pretty clear on the rules in several instances on the attached form. I'm not getting into a debate with you on this. The park rules speak pretty clearly for themselves.

Woodland Caribou Regs

Like I said I respect your opinion and your concerns.

I would like to think however, that myself and those who enjoy the site in the future may think 180 degrees differently.

Kiporby
here is the video tour of the camp and the trail I established. In combination there was probably a solid weeks worth of "environmental impact".

Camp Wolf Spider

Trail at Camp Wolf Spider

I suspect that you have never trod Woodland Caribou. I also suspect that you take for granted while you are in canoe country that a relatively nice place to camp will present itself and your chief concern is - will it be available?

Such options are often few and far between in Woodland Caribou. Very few sites are 4 or 5 star and most would rate at 2. Merely a place to spend the night.

In practical terms what has been accomplished at Musclow is to put it into the realm of "destination" lakes. It is so off the beaten path that all I could find in the way of campsites was a 1 star site which I couldn't wait to leave. Now there is a 4 star site on the lake.

Having said that I agree with LNT principles. I typically leave established campsites cleaner than when I arrived. I usually burn my toilet paper. etc. etc. So I do have respect for your concerns.

I am a frequent traveller to WCPP and one of the things I truly like about the area compared to BWCAW and even Quetico is the more rustic, less visited, less used and/or improved feel of the area, the portages and the campsites. I prefer campsites that do not look over-improved or changed and I certainly do not require help finding my way through a campsite back to points or places. I do agree that any use of a campsite will create a footprint and some trace of my being there just from my camping there and walking through and around the site. Part of the enjoyment of discovery is finding ones way through the woods and following shorelines is quite easy to do without the help of blazes. Blazes marking starts and ends of portages or difficult places along portages are fine but I was dissappointed by all the blazes to help someone back to the point you went to. One option if you were to stay at a site and wanted to follow your path back a time or two would be to have some flagging tape along in your pack to mark the path but please be sure to retrieve it before you leave.

I may be in the monority here, but my feel is that although the clearing of dead and downed wood is appreciated, the cutting of live vegetation including the use of blazes to mark a path within a camp back to a rock point to fish was beyond what I would call LNT principals.

Points taken Bogwalker.

Where I will strongly disagree with you is walking the shoreline and "finding your way" to my destination was not "easy" (I am surprised you would use that word as applying to the WCPP)........and would rate in the "very difficult" category in this instance. Lots of blowdown and lots of steep rock facings would prevent all but the most determined.

As per the blazes.......I recognized and understood that other less experienced people may use the trail. I felt compelled to make certain that the trail would be easily followed lest someone meander off and become confused. Particularly since it will not have the advantage of continual usage as with a portage trail.

There was very little cutting of "live vegetation".......unless your including the pruning of low limbs. Without such measures then everything would of been an exercise in futility. I just want to make sure that you understand clearly what was done. If you still consider this a violation of LNT then fine and so be it. But the insinuation I cleared numbers of live trees would be inaccurate.

As per "rustic" campsites I can't help but smile a bit. Rustic is fine as long as your leaving in the morning, at least from my perspective. If your staying at a site for any period of time then I much prefer open, spacious and orderly. But thats just me.

MT-I guess I don't see the logic in rustic only applying to campsites that someone may occupy for only a night.

I can make a rustic campsite orderly and comfortable for layover days and/or extended stays without making vast improvements beyond moving or removing downed or dead wood and trees that might cover a place for a tent. Feeling like I have been one of only a handful of people ever to stay at a site is a good feeling even though I know different and many have enjoyed the same camp. Obviously our feelings diverge here-you want space and lots of it while I am content with a place to eat and lay my head to sleep and not much more than that. My solitude is found in the wilderness that I occupy, the vistas looking out over a lake that no one else is on for that night and the knowledge that I am one with the land and that the animals, birds and bugs that will remain and for those who stop by the next day or in the future after I leave will barely know I was there.

We can both agree to having a strong love for the wilderness. My philosophy in life is to make things better wherever I go. And that "better" is often done for the sake of others. I may never go back. But I have the satisfaction of knowing that Musclow was once a lake with precious few places to pitch a tent now has an absolutely stellar place to do so.

I would challenge you to go to the camp, walk the trail and then be able to honestly say it was overdone and a detraction from what is the wild wonderful place that is Woodland Caribou.

Fair enough-If I ever get there I'll let you know. I doubt anything but the blazes would be noticed seeing the time between when the improvement was made and when I get there would be enough. The blazes I am sure I would ask myself why they were necessary.

quote Bogwalker: "Fair enough- The blazes I am sure I would ask myself why they were necessary."

Precisely why they are there! I want the question to be asked, "why are these blazes here"? Otherwise the trail will not be put to use and be easily overlooked. Please forgive my tendency in our dialogue for me to "get the last word" but I am passionate about what was accomplished.

I believe Kip has been to WCPP at least once.....just sayin'

I have been to WCPP. Very familiar with the smaller camps. Just the way it is there and the way I like it.

The Leave No Trace principle is based so people don't have to ask "Why is that there?" We are to come and go from the wilderness and leave it untouched--without a trace.

You are rationalizing what you did by saying you improved a camp or made Musclow a destination lake. Maybe the rest of us didn't want that. Building a fire pit and cutting up a dead and fallen log is one thing, but to clear live branches and to make blazes is going too far.

Just because you have a good rationale DOES NOT justify breaking the park rules. And again this really isn't up for debate. The park rules are clear.

I'm glad a couple of you brought the LNT point up. I have always respected your posts mastertangler and appreciate sound fishing advice but...you need to respect the rules and try your best to leave no trace. I was pissed when I saw those live branches cut. People who want to stay in improved campsites already have Voyageurs, the rest of Superior National Park, and just about every entry point lake in the BWCA.

My tripping mates and I usually try to venture across a couple really tough portages to get away from this sense of entitlement...that one can "improve" the woods in their own little way. What you call improving I call selfish and detracts from the natural setting. I don't want my attention drawn to your trail, I want to be able to decompress and focus on my inner thoughts and the natural landscapes around me.

Its all good. If you do make it to Musclow then I suggest you pass up Camp Wolf Spider and stay about 1/2 mile north of there where I am sure it will be more to your liking.

But who knows.......What was done may all be for nought as the first fire which comes through may ravage all. Nature leaves the ultimate footprint and is quite oblivious to our LNT principles. Such was the case at Irregular Lake (also in WCPP) where I "improved" an already established campsite. It was a beautiful site and was much enjoyed........I did the same at another, what had been a 5 star site, on that very same trip where I spent 2 hard days clearing the blowdown from that previous winters big storm. Perhaps I should of left it as it was? A big ugly tangled mess so I could be alone with my "inner thoughts" > (geez this place is an ugly mess)

All was in vain however as that entire area was just recently burned. Glad I stayed there before that happened.

I get the concept of overuse BTW. But WCPP is light years away from that and if anything could use a bit more usage IMHO.

That chewed up a good 30 minutes of work. Thank you for the great report... best one I have read. I have considered some Shadzillas for an upcoming solo but I can't justify the cost. I probably would not have made the campsite improvements but I would have no issues using that site and enjoying them. I also pack a firearm in the BWCA, burn paper plates/oatmeal packaging, and use a kayak paddle in a solo canoe so I think that automatically disqualifies me from being a LNT purist.

quote : "That chewed up a good 30 minutes of work. Thank you for the great report... best one I have read. I have considered some Shadzillas for an upcoming solo but I can't justify the cost. I probably would not have made the campsite improvements but I would have no issues using that site and enjoying them. I also pack a firearm in the BWCA, burn paper plates/oatmeal packaging, and use a kayak paddle in a solo canoe so I think that automatically disqualifies me from being a LNT purist."

What does using a kayak paddle have to do with LNT??? Also I burn all paper products in the fire too. In Quetico they recommend you to burn it and TP.

Well we have gotten off track. I posted the trip report here so we could talk fishing.....always a subject near and dear to my heart.

So what about it? I keep looking back wondering what I could of, should of, done differently. I caught zero lake trout.......I caught no walleye over 3 lbs........I caught no smallmouth over 16".

It's hilarious but it's still one of the best trips I have been on. Go figure......and all from a guy who measures fishing success in lbs and not numbers.

I think I might need some help. Maybe I can get Quetico Mike, the smallie guru to show me how it's done! And some others who know the ropes might weigh in. Where were those big walleye and what did they want? I am leaning towards a big pile of crawlers next time and some lighter line but who knows.

And geez what about the lakers? I probably spent 25% of my time trolling for lake trout without a single one. Were they grouped up somewhere? Or hanging out near the bottom in 100ft? Tis a mystery to me.

Oh well, that's fishin and if could go out and catch big ones every time I would probably do something else!

quote mastertangler:
In practical terms what has been accomplished at Musclow is to put it into the realm of "destination" lakes. It is so off the beaten path that all I could find in the way of campsites was a 1 star site which I couldn't wait to leave. Now there is a 4 star site on the lake.

Having said that I agree with LNT principles. I typically leave established campsites cleaner than when I arrived. I usually burn my toilet paper. etc. etc. So I do have respect for your concerns.

You asked for comments, so here goes. It's really disappointing to read your position. The rules are clear, and your actions don't align with LNT wilderness preservation principles. I think part of the disconnect may lie in the word "destination" - your word. As though there's something more that we could ever add to improve the experience of being fully present in the wilderness. My other comment is that it sounds like a really fabulous trip.

I don't know much about catching lakers because I don't like how they spin and mummify themselves with your line, but I have caught them where they're not supposed to be, which is ten feet of water in the latter half of summer. I'd just troll a crankbait about fifteen feet from shore in ten feet of water looking for pike in mid-day and caught 21 on one trip in a week and have caught others in the same way on other trips. Even if I wanted them badly enough to fish deep water, I wouldn't because it's so hard on them.

Hi Hoaf

I would much prefer to talk fishing than LNT. But what the heck, I'm game for most things.

It wasn't all that long ago that WCPP had a "camp where you can" policy. I wasn't even aware that was changed. But of course ignorance is no excuse.

In my defense I will point out a few things before the rule police get their panties in a wad. Do we object to the hundreds of miles of portage trails that are kept open via chain saw? No of course not. Do we object when park service goes in after the big winter storm which caused so much blow down damage and "punched" some sites back open via chain saw? Of course not!

Next time your at a campsite take a look around. The understory is pruned. Yes it has aged but branches which had been alive are now not there. That is the basic truth of almost any campsite you have ever stayed at unless it is a bare rock.

Now, at Musclow I had looked for a site to stay at. I could not find anything remotely available which I would want to stay at for more than one night. It was deplorable. The lake is not much visited. Now there is a good place to stay and $5 will get you $10 that site will see use in the future.

If someone can adequately explain how adding a quality campsite where none existed that will benefit the park is a bad thing I'm on board with you. But I get how things are upside down these days. What is good is now spoken of as bad and what is bad is now exalted......I get it.

Anyway, what is done is done. The campsite is there and I fully expect that people will use it as well as the measly 400 yards of trail (and how many hundreds of miles of portage trail is there?)

I get LNT ......truly I do. I go out of my way to abide by the spirit of that. You will not find a speck of my presence on a portage trail or in a campsite. That is what LNT is really all about.

So folks can judge me, hate on me, I could care less quite honestly. I know in my heart that what was done is an asset to the park and will be a blessing to those who use it and is not distinguishable from any of the other hundreds of campsites in the park that OTHER people have made (hello?).....well maybe it's a bit nicer than most but you get my point.

DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS MESSAGE

What you did was WRONG! I am disappointed. Hoping you learned from this. And NO, I am not a liberal, tree hugging, eco-terrorist. Just an American who enjoys the wilderness for what it is.

Lake trout: I am surprised you did not catch any? I'd follow what Missmolly said try shallow, one year on Sarah we caught laker after laker in 20 feet or less in early August. Repeated it another year on McIntye. Of course I am not a great fisher I just happened into the pattern by accident fishing for other
fish :)

T

"I would much prefer to talk fishing than LNT...."

Timatkn and I are trying to take you at your word here.

quote AndySG: "DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS MESSAGE

What you did was WRONG! I am disappointed. Hoping you learned from this. And NO, I am not a liberal, tree hugging, eco-terrorist. Just an American who enjoys the wilderness for what it is."

To my detractors I recieved a vision, startling in its clarity. Right now there are 2 dads who are planning a trip with their sons. After having read the trip report and watched the video they set their sights on WCPP. The trip cements a life long relationship between the young men who go on to great heights opening a Fortune 500 company. The company establishes a fund which puts disadvantaged minority children through school (why do you hate minorities?). One of the men, now grown, goes onto have a successful career in politics culminating in becoming Attorney General of the United States.......on his desk he has a faded picture with his lifelong friend holding a 48" northern and on the frame there is a brass plate with the words "Camp Wolf Spider 2017" (it may say 2018, the vision is fading).........sheesh.....everyone is a comedian these days ;-)

The camp is no different than the hundreds of others in the park that were put in with people wielding cutting tools. There is no "furniture" or "lean to"........there is no clear cutting. It blends seamlessly with the ethos of the park. It's strategic location, openness (which was already mostly there), stunning scenery, sunsets and excellent fishing will, I predict, make the camp a destination place. And why not? The spot is amazing.

quote missmolly: ""I would much prefer to talk fishing than LNT...."


Timatkn and I are trying to take you at your word here."

Yes by all means, let's talk fishing.
I dunno what the deal is. This is my second poor showing in the laker department at WCPP. The first was at Agean which supposedly has whopper lakers. I attributed my poor showing to having used Musky gear (lakers having been off my radar screen).

I didn't mark them, although I didn't mark the continuous stream of smallish walleye and pike which attacked my lures with abandon either. The lake is rather large and maybe I didn't get to where they were hanging out. Or maybe the calm sunny conditions had them plastered on the bottom in which case I wouldn't want to drag them out of 100ft for that would be a death sentence.

Not at all sure what the deal was. Certainly I'm no expert and use very basic knowledge to catch them. Somewhere out there is a laker guru. Sometimes all you need is a push in the right direction.

I would love to stay at camp wolf spider, looks great. Plus catching fish off the campsite is a huge bonus. But the thought of sharing the site with who know how many wolf spiders gives me pause. I've come across them before a few times. They're huge and quick and nasty....

quote mastertangler: "

quote AndySG: "DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS MESSAGE


What you did was WRONG! I am disappointed. Hoping you learned from this. And NO, I am not a liberal, tree hugging, eco-terrorist. Just an American who enjoys the wilderness for what it is."

To my detractors I recieved a vision, startling in its clarity. Right now there are 2 dads who are planning a trip with their sons. After having read the trip report and watched the video they set their sights on WCPP. The trip cements a life long relationship between the young men who go on to great heights opening a Fortune 500 company. The company establishes a fund which puts disadvantaged minority children through school (why do you hate minorities?). One of the men, now grown, goes onto have a successful career in politics culminating in becoming Attorney General of the United States.......on his desk he has a faded picture with his lifelong friend holding a 48" northern and on the frame there is a brass plate with the words "Camp Wolf Spider 2017" (it may say 2018, the vision is fading).........sheesh.....everyone is a comedian these days ;-)


The camp is no different than the hundreds of others in the park that were put in with people wielding cutting tools. There is no "furniture" or "lean to"........there is no clear cutting. It blends seamlessly with the ethos of the park. It's strategic location, openness (which was already mostly there), stunning scenery, sunsets and excellent fishing will, I predict, make the camp a destination place. And why not? The spot is amazing.
"

What?????? Visions of grandeur have taken hold. Just own it. Move on.

Keep digging.
Keep trying.
Keep rationalizing.

We understand. Rationalization of ones behaviors is the 2nd strongest human drive. Some folks just can't come to terms with their mistakes and they keep digging to justify what they did.

And here you are....trying to justify what you did with your "wonderful creation" at camp wolf spider with some fanciful vision that your work is justified because it might inspire someone to do great things someday????

Wow.....with all that BS and gradiose talk. Maybe you are the one in your vision who becomes the politician.

We didnt even get started on MT's attempt at species management.....
Relocating frogs, or attempting to. lol

MT, my 2 cents is.... looks like you pissed some people off. Better learn a lesson.

We are watching the wholesale moral destruction of our nation from killing thousands of babies every year, a nationwide drug epidemic, cops getting ambushed all over the place, homicide rates in big cities through the roof, liberal activist judges redefining marriage and family, schools allowing boys to undress, shower, use the restroom with girls just because they claim they feel like girls, political correctness out of control, illegal immigration out of control, national debt out of control, our children's very future threatened by the state of our nation...and you guys are blowing your stacks because MT violated a rule and pruned a few live limbs?! You guys crack me up!

quote Kiporby: "Keep digging.
Keep trying.
Keep rationalizing.


We understand. Rationalization of ones behaviors is the 2nd strongest human drive. Some folks just can't come to terms with their mistakes and they keep digging to justify what they did.


And here you are....trying to justify what you did with your "wonderful creation" at camp wolf spider with some fanciful vision that your work is justified because it might inspire someone to do great things someday????


Wow.....with all that BS and gradiose talk. Maybe you are the one in your vision who becomes the politician."

Very well said. Thanks, Kip!!

quote Kiporby: "Keep digging.
Keep trying.
Keep rationalizing.


We understand. Rationalization of ones behaviors is the 2nd strongest human drive. Some folks just can't come to terms with their mistakes and they keep digging to justify what they did.


And here you are....trying to justify what you did with your "wonderful creation" at camp wolf spider with some fanciful vision that your work is justified because it might inspire someone to do great things someday????


Wow.....with all that BS and gradiose talk. Maybe you are the one in your vision who becomes the politician."

+1

quote Kiporby: "Keep digging.
Keep trying.
Keep rationalizing.


We understand. Rationalization of ones behaviors is the 2nd strongest human drive. Some folks just can't come to terms with their mistakes and they keep digging to justify what they did.


And here you are....trying to justify what you did with your "wonderful creation" at camp wolf spider with some fanciful vision that your work is justified because it might inspire someone to do great things someday????


Wow.....with all that BS and gradiose talk. Maybe you are the one in your vision who becomes the politician."

+2

quote thinblueline: "We are watching the wholesale moral destruction of our nation from killing thousands of babies every year, a nationwide drug epidemic, cops getting ambushed all over the place, homicide rates in big cities through the roof, liberal activist judges redefining marriage and family, schools allowing boys to undress, shower, use the restroom with girls just because they claim they feel like girls, political correctness out of control, illegal immigration out of control, national debt out of control, our children's very future threatened by the state of our nation...and you guys are blowing your stacks because MT violated a rule and pruned a few live limbs?! You guys crack me up!"

Yep, the personal freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution (including the freedom of criminals and the mentally ill to acquire military grade weapons) can be a hard pill to swallow, eh?

If you have not noticed, this site is for sharing and discussing information as it pertains to wilderness canoe tripping, not the issues you mentioned. Oh, he did not just prune a few branches, he cut down many live saplings to clear the site and bolster his tent pad, and then proceeded to cut down many more creating a 200 yard trail to a fishing spot he could have easily canoed to. What was done was unlawful and shows a total disregard for the wilderness. So yes, many here are are expressing their displeasure with this individual.

quote thinblueline: "We are watching the wholesale moral destruction of our nation from killing thousands of babies every year, a nationwide drug epidemic, cops getting ambushed all over the place, homicide rates in big cities through the roof, liberal activist judges redefining marriage and family, schools allowing boys to undress, shower, use the restroom with girls just because they claim they feel like girls, political correctness out of control, illegal immigration out of control, national debt out of control, our children's very future threatened by the state of our nation...and you guys are blowing your stacks because MT violated a rule and pruned a few live limbs?! You guys crack me up!


"

I will express my outrage to those issues in a different forum and not on a boundary waters website. Your post is lame. Just because there are bigger fish to fry out there in the real world doesn't prevent us from slamming someone on a canoeing website about a canoeing related issue.

NEWS ALERT!!!!

The big problem here is not just the act by Tangler. It is the continued narcissistic rationalization of his actions. We all make mistakes and most folks admit to them and learn from them. This guy seems unable to do this and in fact if you read older threads by this guy you see he has done similar "prunings" in the past (like Aegean Lake) and improved camps as well. Prior to this latest trip he even talked about his intent to make a campsite.

This "rules don't apply to me" attitude and unwillingness to change is what torques me off.

If I made a mistake and you guys called me out on it I'd say, "Thanks guys. I was wrong and will never do it again."

This guy gets called out and proclaims these visions in a lame attempt to justify his actions.

And if you wanna tie this into the "moral destruction" of our society...... Well, this type of "rules don't apply to me" behavior by folks in our country is a big contributing factor to why we are having many of the issues you eluded to thinblueline.

Visions of grandeur indeed.....or perhaps a little bit of comedy, your call.

I have recieved a reprimand from park service for breaking the rules. I have only the best interests of the park in mind, but further campsite "installations" have been sufficiently discouraged. The first and last time such actions will be taken on my part.

I have every confidence however that the camp will prove entirely beneficial and such reprimand must be exacted lest others who are less discriminating follow suit. Generally speaking there are already established campsites but Musclow was a bit of an exception. I found little that would qualify as an acceptable place to stay.

I would also encourage others to visit the camp and stay and enjoy it, particularly if you have never been to Woodland Caribou. It will be an adventure you will not soon forget. One great advantage of the camp is its strategic location right at the mouth of the Musclow River and the lake. The paddle up the river from Barclay is quite nice and upon arriving at Musclow the camp is on the right, impossible to not be able to set up on the big lake unless the camp is already occupied. You will not have to hope for calm waters on the oft rough lake in order to hopefully "find" one of the more primitive (rustic) sites which were quite frankly rather undesirable.

If anyone desires additional info feel free to contact me via Internal messaging
And I will be happy to share what I know concerning the fishing possibilities etc. etc.

In any event I stand corrected, admit as much and hopefully we can put the matter to rest.

quote mastertangler: "I have recieved a reprimand from park service for breaking the rules. "

Really? They followed behind you and identified you as the guilty party? Wow, CSI indeed. The plot thickens.......

quote mastertangler: "The fishing was a big focus on this trip. Questions, comments or even suggestions are all appreciated.

Mighty Musclow "

Comments: Your blog is top notch. Captain Yuri and the Dry Tortugas is on my bucket list. Might have to cross this campsite on Musclow off that list first however. Thanks for the blog link.

MT. Don't loose any sleep over it. I got ripped for whacking a few dragon flies with a BB gun. I'm still trying to catch up on the sleep I lost over it....Bahaha

quote Kiporby: "NEWS ALERT!!!!


The big problem here is not just the act by Tangler. It is the continued narcissistic rationalization of his actions. We all make mistakes and most folks admit to them and learn from them. This guy seems unable to do this and in fact if you read older threads by this guy you see he has done similar "prunings" in the past (like Aegean Lake) and improved camps as well. Prior to this latest trip he even talked about his intent to make a campsite.


This "rules don't apply to me" attitude and unwillingness to change is what torques me off.


If I made a mistake and you guys called me out on it I'd say, "Thanks guys. I was wrong and will never do it again."


This guy gets called out and proclaims these visions in a lame attempt to justify his actions.


And if you wanna tie this into the "moral destruction" of our society...... Well, this type of "rules don't apply to me" behavior by folks in our country is a big contributing factor to why we are having many of the issues you eluded to thinblueline.


"

Granted, I just think the issue is being a tad bit blown out of proportion in the grand scheme of things, and not worthy of the degree of hostility that is being directed toward the guy.

Yeah, its true what they say about the internet, even here. It gives everyone a high horse and a bucket of throwing stones.

This thread was just awful to read.

quote BnD: "

quote mastertangler: "I have recieved a reprimand from park service for breaking the rules. "

Really? They followed behind you and identified you as the guilty party? Wow, CSI indeed. The plot thickens......."

Bragging on a private forum where the Superintendent of the Park is an active member was not a good idea. Link . Even less smart was posting these videos there asking for the Superintend's review. Link2

quote fishtales: "Yeah, its true what they say about the internet, even here. It gives everyone a high horse and a bucket of throwing stones.


This thread was just awful to read."

+1

I understand the need to express your views and certainly this topic is relevant. However whatever your view, MTANGLER responded to every barb with courtesy and respect while a fair amount of you responded with ridiculous personal attacks and unnecessary words and character attacks. It's these ridiculous bullying tactics that turn me off from this site from time to time. And I'm sure I'm not the only one who gets turned off by this behavior.

MTANGLER: I may not have have agreed with the degree you cleared the campsite, but I will leave it at that. And I will also add that I have thoroughly enjoyed your videos, your obvious knowledge and passion for the outdoors and fishing.

Whoa Nellie!

We are all passionate about the outdoors......that's what we have in common. Despite the best of intentions I have been proven to be in error. I do not fault those who have pointed that out.

As long as the camp is included in the new park services campsite directory and hopefully retains its distinct title I shall be content and bear the slings and arrows patiently.

Wow, came on here to see if any trout info got posted and instead I see plenty of self righteous personal attacks with the severity blown way out of proportion. I am not trying to take sides on what is right or wrong, just saying some of you got personal when it wasn't necessary. What's up with that? Even when you are right doesn't mean ya have to be an a$$ about it.

I think a few of you need to read your own trip reports, a quick scan see's one of you posting pics of 2 trophy northerns killed on just one trip... It takes 20 years to grow a fish like that, another 20 to replace, way more damaging than what you are so outraged about.

One of you started a great post years ago about dignity and respect, yet pushed the thread away from that as it progressed.

Another critic in the thread has in the past posted about clearing PMA portages and camps, when the rules clearly state everything is LNT in a PMA and to not do that..so ya did the exact same thing in the past and now you are outraged?

I point these out not to say what was done was okay or correct, but to say we make mistakes and if we keep that in mind maybe we will be more civil. I certainly have my mistakes as well.

I don't have an issue telling someone they made a mistake, but be civil about it for God's sake. That's one of the reasons I'm drawn to this site is it usually stays civil, but what happened over the last day was a little ridiculous.

The original poster gained my respect by being civil the entire time and owning up to the mistake, a few of you have lost my respect-- I hope that is temporary? Granted I read all the posts all at once, I am sure there were emotions involved while replying and that played a role but still reading it all at once is disappointing. There is a lot to learn from this thread all the way around...

T

quote mastertangler: "Whoa Nellie!


We are all passionate about the outdoors......that's what we have in common. Despite the best of intentions I have been proven to be in error. I do not fault those who have pointed that out.


As long as the camp is included in the new park services campsite directory and hopefully retains its distinct title I shall be content and bear the slings and arrows patiently. "

Your my hero?

"The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders."

Edward Abby

I like turtles

If I ever get to this camp site I will absolutely use the trail you blazed, MT, and I will appreciate the lack of broken rods, broken bones, and likely wolf spider webs in my mouth. However, your self incriminating videos are laughable. I couldn't imagine a more blatant and public disregard for (BWCA) park rules... I left my truck at the entry point, I don't intend to drive it through your trail.

That said, I agree that this thread has gotten vicious. IT IS A THREAD THAT EVERYONE SHOULD READ. Not to denounce author MT, but to reflect on their own tendencies and actions in canoe country. What is "improvement" and what is "destruction" in DEEP backcountry? The rules are obvious... We watch that silly, common sense (or so I thought) LNT video every time we enter. However, if an entire lake is in need of ONE livable campsite, is it wrong to cut **a couple** of branches to set a tent?

All in all I agree with timatkn. Killing a 20 year old fish creates far more change to an ecosystem (for better or worse) than cutting down a few saplings... For the purists who enjoy the wilderness of deep woods, this camp site may not be the same for 20 years, but they have the option of finding another site. It doesn't make it legal, but it's not going to kill anyone or wildlife either, and now, like it or not, it's part of the experience.

quote mastertangler: "

quote missmolly: ""I would much prefer to talk fishing than LNT...."



Timatkn and I are trying to take you at your word here."

Yes by all means, let's talk fishing.
I dunno what the deal is. This is my second poor showing in the laker department at WCPP. The first was at Agean which supposedly has whopper lakers. I attributed my poor showing to having used Musky gear (lakers having been off my radar screen).


I didn't mark them, although I didn't mark the continuous stream of smallish walleye and pike which attacked my lures with abandon either. The lake is rather large and maybe I didn't get to where they were hanging out. Or maybe the calm sunny conditions had them plastered on the bottom in which case I wouldn't want to drag them out of 100ft for that would be a death sentence.


Not at all sure what the deal was. Certainly I'm no expert and use very basic knowledge to catch them. Somewhere out there is a laker guru. Sometimes all you need is a push in the right direction."

Like you, I don't want to deliver a death sentence to a deep water laker. I pulled one from the deep with a three way swivel, a bell sinker, and a crankbait, fully intending to keep it and eat it, which I did, but then I thought, "What if it had been big?"

I was backcountry once on a lake where I could only catch muskies. They weren't big, just low to high 30-inchers, but I kept a couple and even a 32-inch musky is a burden to eat and I ate both of them entirely so as not to waste any of the pair and I feared the same with a big, dying, deep water trout. And then I discovered that you can catch them shallow through the summer, which I do here and there for a change of pace.

Rationalization of the indefensible? Or mitigating realities?

The vast majority of sites in WCPP are primitive for the most part. And these are welcome after a long day. But for base camping for a party of 4 the camp at Musclow will be hard to beat. You will have to look hard to see the "changes" made as even the pruning was done flush and after just a bit of aging that will be hard to notice. The additional clearing was primarily blowdown and dead trees. The existing trees will now flourish having been given some space. It was pleasant to look upon while I was there and will only continue to improve.

The trail was another matter and a case of one thing leading to another. After having made my way, with no small amount of difficulty, to my objective I marveled at just how exceptional the location was. My initial goal was just to be able to walk easily with a fishing rod and not fight my way there. I thought how nice it would be if other people were able to gain access to this so I made the trail easy and obvious to follow. It also occurred to me that my actions could have unintended consequences should a very inexperienced person (a teenager for example) follow the trail, become disorientated and become lost. That was unacceptable to me and further blazing took place. A classic case of one thing leading to another. In retrospect a lighter footprint and less advertising would of been desirable.

quote missmolly: "

quote mastertangler: "

quote missmolly: ""I would much prefer to talk fishing than LNT...."



Timatkn and I are trying to take you at your word here."

Yes by all means, let's talk fishing.
I dunno what the deal is. This is my second poor showing in the laker department at WCPP. The first was at Agean which supposedly has whopper lakers. I attributed my poor showing to having used Musky gear (lakers having been off my radar screen).



I didn't mark them, although I didn't mark the continuous stream of smallish walleye and pike which attacked my lures with abandon either. The lake is rather large and maybe I didn't get to where they were hanging out. Or maybe the calm sunny conditions had them plastered on the bottom in which case I wouldn't want to drag them out of 100ft for that would be a death sentence.



Not at all sure what the deal was. Certainly I'm no expert and use very basic knowledge to catch them. Somewhere out there is a laker guru. Sometimes all you need is a push in the right direction."

Like you, I don't want to deliver a death sentence to a deep water laker. I pulled one from the deep with a three way swivel, a bell sinker, and a crankbait, fully intending to keep it and eat it, which I did, but then I thought, "What if it had been big?"


I was backcountry once on a lake where I could only catch muskies. They weren't big, just low to high 30-inchers, but I kept a couple and even a 32-inch musky is a burden to eat and I ate both of them entirely so as not to waste any of the pair and I feared the same with a big, dying, deep water trout. And then I discovered that you can catch them shallow through the summer, which I do here and there for a change of pace."

miss molly, I seem to remember a BWJ article that Stu published regarding bringing up deep-water lakers. If I remember correctly (and I could be completely wrong on this) there is a way to massage the air bladder so that the fish can dive again. The main shock if you will to their system was suggested as a change in water temperature and exhaustion from fighting your hook set. I'll have to go back and reread that article to see if I got it right but apparently LTs can survive bringing them up from a deeper depth. Other opinions are more than welcome!

quote missmolly: "

quote mastertangler: "

quote missmolly: ""I would much prefer to talk fishing than LNT...."

."

."

Like you, I don't want to deliver a death sentence to a deep water laker. I pulled one from the deep with a three way swivel, a bell sinker, and a crankbait, fully intending to keep it and eat it, which I did, but then I thought, "What if it had been big?"


I was backcountry once on a lake where I could only catch muskies. They weren't big, just low to high 30-inchers, but I kept a couple and even a 32-inch musky is a burden to eat and I ate both of them entirely so as not to waste any of the pair and I feared the same with a big, dying, deep water trout. And then I discovered that you can catch them shallow through the summer, which I do here and there for a change of pace."

It's amazing how many people don't believe how shallow lakers are all summer. I haven't used extra weight in 12 years. Most of my fishing is in August and hook them at about 20 feet even shallower in evenings. Even over deep water, they aren't very far down. I am sure there are days they are deep and you would need weights but I am not interested in dredging one up.

T

HighnDry

Lakers can survive depth changes a lot better than other fish, the problem in the summer is that those really deep fish are in a lot colder water than the shallower lakers. Fish are cold blooded so they can adapt to different temps but not quickly. My opinion is the stress in summer of bringing one from the depths is usually too great for the majority to overcome. It is a combination of rapid depth and temperature is just too hard a lot of times. I've never had to do the belly stroking so don't know how it works. When I used to fish deep for lakers in summer they were pretty obviously done when I brought them up---that ended the fishing for me as we had a meal at that point, but I always worried if I caught a monster what would I do---it would be too much to eat. That's totally anecdotal I have no scientific evidence to back any of that up:)

In laker studies I've read on delayed hooking mortality in cold water earlier in the year depth doesn't really matter much on survival. I haven't seen studies on warmer water and deep laker fishing. There are some on the Great Lakes but all of that water is really cold so not sure you can extrapolate that data.

T

Geez the shove I might have needed. What if I was fishing below them? Mostly I ran a taildancer, a lure I typically do fairly well with in the Quetico and it runs some 25 to 30 ft.

Perhaps I should have been focusing in the 15 to 20 ft range even over 100ft? Fishing below them almost guarantees no bites. Hmmmmm........

Missmolly I have to ask how does Musky taste?

T

quote timatkn: "Missmolly I have to ask how does Musky taste?


T"

It's embarrassing to be able to answer this since eating a musky is a venial sin tipping to mortal (We'll see how many other Catholics are in the house.), but it's a bit better than pike. Flakier. Cleaner tasting. A bit more like walleye.

quote timatkn: "

quote missmolly: "

quote mastertangler: "

quote missmolly: ""I would much prefer to talk fishing than LNT...."


."

."

Like you, I don't want to deliver a death sentence to a deep water laker. I pulled one from the deep with a three way swivel, a bell sinker, and a crankbait, fully intending to keep it and eat it, which I did, but then I thought, "What if it had been big?"



I was backcountry once on a lake where I could only catch muskies. They weren't big, just low to high 30-inchers, but I kept a couple and even a 32-inch musky is a burden to eat and I ate both of them entirely so as not to waste any of the pair and I feared the same with a big, dying, deep water trout. And then I discovered that you can catch them shallow through the summer, which I do here and there for a change of pace."

It's amazing how many people don't believe how shallow lakers are all summer. I haven't used extra weight in 12 years. Most of my fishing is in August and hook them at about 20 feet even shallower in evenings. Even over deep water, they aren't very far down. I am sure there are days they are deep and you would need weights but I am not interested in dredging one up.


T"

I hear ya. I've even cast to surface feeding lakers in mid-summer. Fish are mostly predictable except when they aren't.

Timakin. If you are referring to the 41 pike in one of my trip reports I suppose I should elaborate that both pictures are the same fish. Caught in 1 foot of water on kawnipi. Swallowed the jig deep if I recall my brother's story correctly. By the time he was reeled in and the hook removed the fish was bleedling badly and almost dead. Sadly the fish couldn't be revived and rather than waste him it became dinner. Just one of those things.

quote Kiporby: "Timakin. If you are referring to the 41 pike in one of my trip reports I suppose I should elaborate that both pictures are the same fish. Caught in 1 foot of water on kawnipi. Swallowed the jig deep if I recall my brother's story correctly. By the time he was reeled in and the hook removed the fish was bleedling badly and almost dead. Sadly the fish couldn't be revived and rather than waste him it became dinner. Just one of those things."

And that's exactly what you should do if you accidentally kill a big fish. And you should take comfort in what I once read, that a big female's most fertile years aren't at the end of her life.

Agreed and all good points. The change in temperature logic resonates as does the shallow water depths. I do most of my laker fishing in the spring for that reason. Most of the lures I use are a combination of spoons, rap taildancers and thin fins. So far I haven't had to worry much about catching anything over 26" :) so the lunkers are safe!

Ya know Kiporboy I wasn't trying to call anyone out or I would have been more specific, I don't need an explanation just saying we all have mistakes whatever the reasons and we all have things that grind on us more than others. I am sure ya can find something I did wrong if ya look hard enough.

Your first post in this thread was straight and to the point and polite. Can't argue with anything you said...I like when people call others out, that's how we learn. But what went down and what I read on this site after that was just so disappointing and unproductive that after talking to other members I felt moved to say something.

T

Thanks Missmolly, I've always been curious. If I ever ate one, my friends would tie an anchor to me and throw me over board. To them it isn't venial it is an eternal sin :) I actually had one of them tell me how they jumped out of the boat into the water and swam with one to revive it.

Another friend of mine has a hilarious story of one of his buddies jumping into someone else's boat he didn't even know to revive one.


T

Lakers will come a long ways up for a meal. So I think it's the additional pulling them out of the water that makes it that much harder on them. I'm in the camp where luckily I don't catch those bigger ones. But I also enjoy a couple good Laker meals here and there. When I've caught Lakers in warmer times of the year it was along structure where they could have come up from a long ways down. Whether they had come up to feed or shot up to grab my bait I don't know.

Lakers will come a long ways up for a meal. So I think it's the additional pulling them out of the water that makes it that much harder on them. I'm in the camp where luckily I don't catch those bigger ones. But I also enjoy a couple good Laker meals here and there. When I've caught Lakers in warmer times of the year it was along structure where they could have come up from a long ways down. Whether they had come up to feed or shot up to grab my bait I don't know.

quote timatkn: "Thanks Missmolly, I've always been curious. If I ever ate one, my friends would tie an anchor to me and throw me over board. To them it isn't venial it is an eternal sin :) I actually had one of them tell me how they jumped out of the boat into the water and swam with one to revive it.


Another friend of mine has a hilarious story of one of his buddies jumping into someone else's boat he didn't even know to revive one.



T "

I revisited that lake after the first time I killed a couple because I didn't have enough food otherwise and I always took enough food to sustain myself sans muskies after that first trip. Perhaps I deserve Davy Jones Locker, me matey.

quote nctry: "Lakers will come a long ways up for a meal. So I think it's the additional pulling them out of the water that makes it that much harder on them. I'm in the camp where luckily I don't catch those bigger ones. But I also enjoy a couple good Laker meals here and there. When I've caught Lakers in warmer times of the year it was along structure where they could have come up from a long ways down. Whether they had come up to feed or shot up to grab my bait I don't know. "

Fishing reminds me of gardening. My plants have their secret world in their roots and I can't see and thus fully understand them. Fish have their secret world too. Hooray for mystery!

quote mastertangler: ".... I have recieved a reprimand from park service for breaking the rules. "

Are you willing to expand on this?

There are a lot of lessons to be learned by this long discussion. Awareness of the cost of park rule non-compliance could help others pay attention to published and posted regulations.

It's posted here if you want to read

Claire's note

;)