Ever been run out of a campsite?


Well I just was on my last trip to Quetico.


My wife and I were camped on Agnes near the base of Louisa Falls last week. We were enjoying a leisurely late breakfast and coffee when a large group landed at our camp. The leader looked to be 60 years old leading a group of youths. They landed their canoes right in the middle of our site. Then the leader came walking through our camp looking around. Never said “hi” or acknowledged us in any way. I start to think this is sorta weird behavior so I ask “can I help you guys” probably in a slightly irritated voice.


The leader yells back “we are going to do the portage”. I begin to inform him the actual portage to Louisa Lake is down a little ways and across the falls from this site but before I finish he yells back “ I know I’ve got 35 years of experience, we want to go to the falls.” I say “Oh you want to see the bathtub, the portage is a lot easier access but if you want to bushwhack to the bathtub through our camp go for it.” Once again he reminds me of his 35 years experience and tells me there is a large group at the portage blocking it. I am feeling a lot of attitude coming from this guy and not understanding why? He then gives my wife and I a speech on blocking portages and portage etiquite. Why I don’t know? We are not at a portage and even if we were our canoe is hidden in the trees, but I put up with it and tell him have fun at the falls. Go back and sit with my wife at the fire area.


Just as I take my last swig of coffee I look over and see the leader giving orders to break out the stove for lunch. 9-12 guys (I am not sure of the real number as I was boiling by now) start piling out of their canoes. Then a couple of the kids get their shovels out to go duke at our camp site. My patience is gone. I walk over to the leader and say, “you gotta be kidding me? You are going to have lunch at our campsite?”. He then proceeds to inform me this is a lunch area not a campsite. “This is a busy area and you shouldn’t have camped here, sometimes this campsite has been shut down”---goes on to re-inform me of his 35 years of experience, “I have seen 2-3 groups have lunch here in the past”. I ask him “while someone is camped here?” He just put his head down then proceeded to give his same tired speech about blocking portages. Well he will not budge so I say, “well you are obviously going to do what you want and I cannot stop you but I think you are being rude!”


They are now cooking their lunch about 10-20 feet from our fire ring and wandering through my camp. We just decide to punt and break camp—this has become ridiculous. We were going to leave anyway but this drove us out quicker than what we wanted. Why the leader wanted to have lunch here I have no idea. All of the other sites were open around Louisa Falls and if he really has “35 years experience” he should have known there are multiple landings to visit Louisa Falls that my wife and I saw were open upon leaving our site. My wife Sara offers one parting shot, “you know we were going to leave anyway but you drove us out sooner. If you would have just said Hi and asked to have lunch here we would have gladly shared this site, but you had to be rude and just force yourself on our site. This is the rudest behavior we have ever seen.” The teenagers looked embarrassed and the leader tries to tell us we are not at a camp site---My wife Sara loses it and says, “Do you not see the fireplace? Did you not see our tent? In Quetico anyplace can be a campsite, there is no such thing as a lunch site!” His reply “Nope!”.


As we paddle away I observe the group get into their canoes and paddle over to the portage. I cannot believe the rudeness of the leader, he never had any intention of using the “imaginary portage” to the falls at our site. It is obvious he never intended to view the falls from our site, or use a portage--he was just using it as an excuse to land at our campsite. I figure he knew what he was doing was wrong he was just trying to justify his poor behavior to the us and the rest of his group.


Okay I tell this story for a couple of reasons: One I am proud of myself for staying calm. 10 years ago I would have thrown this Moron into the lake---which would have been stupid considering I was outnumbered at least 9 to 1 (although evil thoughts entered my mind when I was packing away the bear spray :) . Second if this guy really has 35 years experience—this is not the first time or the last time he has done this to another group. If you encounter this behavior take down any info you can and report him to the Canadians. Enough bad reports and he will not be able to reserve permits anymore and be banned from Quetico. Right now it is my word vs. his word, so I was told at Prairie Portage it is on file and if they get anymore bad reports most likely the leader will be banned. If you don’t file an incident report this moron will go on bullying his way through the park.


Any other ideas on how to handle someone like this? I suspect if I was with a group of my buddies this never would have happened, but wiht just my wife and I, I felt like I had no other options than to leave. I cannot believe they actually enjoyed their lunch---everyone around except the leader seemed to think it was an awkward situation at the very least. It couldn't have been an enjoyable lunch for them?


I will add this 1 hour was the only negaive thing about our 1 week trip to Quetico :)

Taking caution and protecting the security of your wife was the best thing to do. But, the thought of having better odds and spraying the Moron then hearing a splash does make me laugh a little.

This is where a hatchet would be useful. Load your boat, get your wife in, punch holes in all of his boats, spray him when he tries to stop you, and paddle into the sun. Sharpen hatchet as needed upon return.

Could never do it, but the thought is entertaining at the least. Sorry to hear about your experience. Sounds like he had 35 years of experience being a D#%K.

timakn. its unfortunate thats going to be the lingering memory of your trip.

I applaud your "think it but don't do it" approach to this moron.

Too bad you didn't have a picture of him and the group to report to the authorities.

You were not part of a thread last week on a disturbing video someone posted about the BWCA, but as I thought "how would I have handled this?" I had a thought of a very large rock propped under a stick with a string attached and the other end was in my hand......

timatkn,

Wow, what an unfortunate dilemma for you both. You each handled it well and made good decisions, IMO.

By posting your experience you have helped us all with another unexpected situation to deal with, thanks. Sorry for your experience.

I did smile when I read how your wife reacted. My lovely bow partner's reaction in this situation would pose more concern for me than the idiots at hand, lol.

Boppa

You are all right, of course, that not punching this guy in the snout was a better plan than doing so. But, I have to point out that punching him in the snout would have been a good plan, too!
It is an unjust circumstance that stayed your hand. What a Jerk.

I'm with Iron Balls, the guy is a bully and deserves what anybody gives him. I say this because the teenagers that this guy is supposedly trying to educate in the northwoods are learning all the wrong lessons from him and may just become bullies themselves. Just my two cents.

Unbelievable. What an a-hole.

Just shaking my head.

Some people do not realize how much they influence young people that they guide on trips. I hope this group of young men is smart enough to know not to follow in his footsteps.

I guess he has 35 years of not learning-not sure I would call it experience. It seems he has but not been learning from his mistakes or his bad judgement. Learning from mistakes is how you get experience, not from repeating them. Repeating mistakes makes one a fool.

As you saw he did not learn from the experience he had with you either. So I guess we know what that means.

As a few of you pointed out, the fact he was leading what looked like a youth group was disturbing to me. The other adult of the group and the teens all looked embarrassed during the whole mess. I am hoping that they, unlike their leader learned something.

I hope I did not give the impression this group was aggressive. Except for when they first landed (the leader had an agressive posture)I never feared for our safety. I could see something bad happening if I chose to escalate the situation, but then I'd bear some responsibility in making a nuisance situation into a bad one (doesn't mean you cannot dream though).

As far as turning them in, I did consider taking photos, but when it came down to it I was boiling as we left and just forgot. I over heard their route, their exit point and date, described the group as best I could. The ranger at Prairie had a pretty good idea from that info who it was, but was going to look it up further to make sure. Not a lot they can do unless they get more reports, whether they contact them or not I have no idea.

This incident was unfortunate, but really was a small bump in the road on a great trip. We spent the next hour singing Dennis Leary's song "I'm an a--hole" to ourselves of course putting different words in describe this groups actions :) Laughter is always a good coping mechanism.

The funny thing is just a little human decency and this situation could have had us all enjoying the site together and swapping stories. All they had to do was say "Hi" and ask to share and we would have welcomed them. I don't mind talking to people out there at all. But I am not going to throw out the welcome mat to a group being rude though.

That is very odd behavior. You mention he was around 60 years, and disoriented. He thought the portage was there but then made lunch. Sounds like he was possibly having a diabetic reaction.

I used to go on trips with a guy who was a bad diabetic. Almost drove us off the cliff at Ed Shave Lake, but I grabbed the wheel. You should have pulled couple canoes out into the lake with you on your way out. Let them chase them down for a while. It would have served him right. A-1 prick.

Very odd - those of us who have been doing this for 35 years know better.

I was going to say I've been driven out by a bear, but your story was more interesting.

That's ridiculous, I have let several friendly groups have lunch at our sites before, but none has ever demanded they stay, or give speeches on portage etiquette in the middle of my site.

Having traveled in the wilderness for 35+ years, 32 of those years with an insulin dependent diabetic, I found dogmusher's reply very interesting, because that was the first thing I thought of as well when I read your story. But if that were the case, I would have expected his companions to recognize the problem and correct it (quietly and quickly) rather than let it drive you away from your campsite. This was very odd behavior, indeed. I cannot imagine how we would have reacted, but you seem to have handled the situation with cool heads and managed to enjoy the rest of your trip. Good for you!

some people think they own the park..i would suggest that photos
and/or movies be taken and posted on the web--a YouTube of this
would put nuts like this guy on the spot--

You did the right thing, Tim. And it sounds like the youths in the group were learning the right lessons - they looked embarassed, which means they understood the leader's behavior was inappropriate, so it's not likely something they would want to imitate. You and your wife set a good example by your behavior, and the young people will be more likely to remember that as model for their future conduct.

As you say though, it's still okay to "dream" about responding in a different way (which he deserved).

Chalk it up to the fact that even @$$holes can get entry permits.

Another explaination is that you were wittenessing early signs of dementia. It be nice to know if this was normal behavior for him or if it was unusual. Symptoms can include change in mood and personality. Sounds like he may have had issues with memory, judgement, and orientation - all of these are signs, too.

Of course it could be the result of the stress of leading a youth group coupled with aging. There could be a bit of depression thrown in there, too, especially if he had been doing it for 35 years and things weren't as easy as it had been.

Then again, it may be none of those, and he is just a jerk.

Wow..I can only hope that faced with a similar situation I can show the same level of patience. I commend you on your cool head. Hopefully, the others were learning what not to do. I'm willing to bet that if anyone of the group tried to tell this "leader" to change his behavior, they got the "35 years of experience" bull#*$t you had to endure. Talk about a long trip. Thank goodness you only had to deal with him for a short time.

Wow, Tim, I would have been pissed. I probably would have been nice at first, but as the guy went on I would have got in his face a bit and told him what I thought about his 35 years. Taking pictures of him would have been a very interesting idea.

You ultimately did the correct thing and I guess I would done something similar after I fired a couple parting shots and packed up in a huff. I would have probably marched my canoe and gear right through their lunch area on the way out as I apologized for inconveniencing them by camping at their lunch spot.

I hope it didn't cause you to be upset all day or anything. I know we had a somewhat rude group that ticked us off this year, and we got over it faster by laughing about them (after they were long gone) and talking about what we should do to get them back, all hypothetically of course.

Curious to hear about your trip.

Like Maverick said, I look foward to hearing about the rest of you trip! I hope a report follows.

If it was not a medical problem, that group leader learned no more from his 60 years of life experience than he did from his 35 years of canoe trekking experience. He was consistent in that respect.

Most of us oldies have found that we get more mellow as we age. That's because, after a lifetime of making mistakes, we realize that we don't know everything. That group leader still thinks he knows everything.

Timatkin was smart to not push the issue. As with a drunk, or in the case of road rage, things can escalate when a person no longer seems to be reasonable. Really bad and persistent memories could result from such an encounter.

The trip BTW was one of the best I ever had. Good fishing, great weather, lots of interesting sites, and every camp was great in it's own way. I'd be disappointed in myself if I let this little incident detract from my trip. I'll try to post a trip report here and on QJ when I get a chance

Tim

Only temporarily!

I think it was the butter beans with onions. Popcorn for dessert.

I just saw this thread linked from another. I think that is the site at the southwest corner of the falls, right? I took my son to the falls last summer and we were asked not to camp at that site as it gets too much wear and tear. We didn't camp there. The next day we took lunch over to the falls and climbed up and had a great time, but we forgot our lunch in the canoe. We climbed down the western side and got our lunch then started over to the site to eat. There were folks camped there, but gone for a day trip. We sat quietly off to one side of the site and ate our lunch (where the big 4 ft tree is felled).
I do know the park wishes people didn't camp there, but still that is not license to barge in a on someone at the site!

I have learned that there are people with 35 years experience (listen to them) and then the jackwagons that have 1 year experience 35 times.

What a jackwagon! I am filing this away with the idea that I will video tape anyone trying to do this in our campsite! Hope your post will help get past the ugly and that you can just enjoy all the fun you had!

You did the right thing. But, this story just raised my blood pressure by many points.

I have no idea how this got re-posted. I did it 3 years ago. SOrry for the repeat. I did post a link on another post so maybe I messed p. Apologies.

Jcavenough--it was another site down a little further from the falls. THe site you are referring has been closed down in the past--I know which one you are talking about, but there were no restrictions when we went--I just avoided it as it gets too much traffic.

Maybe another thread to mull over---what does more damage one group camping for a few days or many groups using a site as a latrine/lunch area every day?

T

Similar thing happened to us at a portage. We had four boats and were unloading. Another group of four boats pulled in, pushing their boats in between ours and starting to unload.

I mentioned that if they would just give us a minute we would be out of their way. They pushed by us and began moving through our gear and past us on the trail.

At that point I mentioned that I read that you were not supposed to move into the portage until the group ahead of you was through. the older guy/leader of the other group proceeded to tell me how many years he had been coming to BWCA and I didn't know what I was talking about.

After we all got through and back on the water it was apparent that they were pushing by everyone to try to get first to their chosen camp site.

Wow....I think you handled yourself very well.
What a poor example for the group he was leading.
I would have had a hard time being that cool about it.

I have had two experiences with people who were normally even tempered and polite coming out of character and getting very belligerent.

One incident happened at a volunteer house building event. It was very hot, she was over exerting herself, not used to manual labor and not drinking any water. She was becoming dehydrated and become like the man you describe. She had a Director level position with the company so nobody dared say anything to her. She later apologized to everyone. When she wasn't around I did an imitation of her behavior much to everyone's amusement.
The other person had Liver problems and their brain was being poisoned causing strange behavior. No one wanted to do anything. I called the company nurse right away that time.

Could very well have been a medical condition and people were afraid to deal with him. It sometimes works if you calmly ask people behaving like that if you can help them.

I am sorry that happened to you and your wife and I can only hope the guy had little control of his actions due to something beyond his control.

We were run out of a campsite once. By army worms.

You handled that much more gracefully than I would have. I would have taken names and photos and videos. There may have even been a return trip with an air horn/whistle at 2am. Thank you for reporting it, hopefully they were able to track them down and re-educate the 35 year veteran. He obviously needs to repeat summer school.