It will be our first time in the BWCA. We bought canoes and new equipment. We plan on camping trips here in Ohio to try out some of the equipment, but can only take so many days off from work,,,.

I would go straight out on a 3-4 day trip, but my wife is much less adventure oriented. So far, we think the first or second week of septiember.

Is there a cabin that can be rented that will allow overnight trips, then return to the cabin for a night? That would let us test our new equipment, then adjust back at the cabin if we did not take the proper stuff or took too much or too little. It would allow only one day or night of misery at a time if we prepare wrong.

I understand that you can not go in and out on a permit, so I do not know if this is possible.

Edit as I go list of equipment:

Prism canoe w/CVCA yoke, extra paddle, ropes
Hornbeck classic 12 canoe, extra paddle, ropes

Pack weight so far with below equip- 25lb

CCS pioneer pack
CCS thwart map bag
Exped Synmat 12
Rumpl down filled blanket
Windburner 1L stove with skillet
Mountain 3 people tent
Katadyn water pump/filter-heavy home unit(looking at sawyer to replace this)
Black Diamond storm light

Bio soap
Waterproof matches

Just ordered 20pc BDB

Try Rockwood Lodge & Outfitters. You can paddle across Poplar Lake and take a portage into Lizz which is rather small but midway across you are in the BWCA. There are plenty of options in that area to paddle many different lakes that are in the BWCA. They have a lot of good information also.

You can obtain free day-use permits. There are also hiking trails in the area.

Don't over-think it, it's not rocket science. The BWCA is suitable for all ages and abilities. Use common sense - always wear a PFD on the water, bring a water filter, sunscreen and bug-dope. Don't wear cotton. Watch the weather, don't paddle in lightning or heavy winds. The mornings are the calmest usually. Watch your footing on portages. Always carry a waterproof map & compass; know how to use them. Relax and have fun but don't get complacent and let your guard down. You'll find that it's not much different than paddling around home, just less people and much more beautiful.

Most first-timers overpack. In the past 2 years I have taken 4 first-timers and they can't wait to go back. On one trip one of the guys brought as much stuff as the other 3 of us combined, and the 3 of us over-packed so you can imagine how difficult the portages were.

Try a base camp trip the first time. Paddle a few hours in (3-4 hrs.), set up camp and spend a few nights there until you get into your groove. Perhaps if everything is going well after 2 days pack up and move to another lake. From Rockwood on Poplar Lake you can be on Caribou Lake with some nice campsites in about 90 minutes From there you can be on Horsehoe with more nice campsites in another hour. And another hour from there you can be on Vista or Gaskin. Gaskin has many nice campsites. On Gaskin you are an easy 4.5 hours from the outfitter. They have a bunkhouse which isn't nearly as nice as a cabin, but a fraction of the cost. The Trail Center with great food is only a few minutes down the road as well.

As Northwoodsman said, you can get a day-use permit, which doesn't allow you to stay overnight. Day use permits are free and unlimited. They are located in boxes at the entry point, but a good idea would be to stop at the FS office and pick some up.

An overnight paddle permit will allow you to stay overnight, but once you exit the BW, you'd need another to re-enter. Overnight paddle permits have a fee (minimal) and are specific to one entry point and one date. They are also limited - each entry point has a daily quota. If there are no permits for the entry point and date you want to re-enter, then you'd have to go in another day or entry point or both.

If I were you and since your time is limited, I'd just plan on getting an overnight paddle permit and going in for the duration. You can always come back out if it's not working, but you're going to be using and testing stuff before you go so that part should be minimized.

We can help you with a lot of stuff, but the more information we have about you (and your wife) - camping experience, canoeing experience, age, physical condition, etc. - as well as the new canoes and equipment, the more useful our advice will become.

Northwoodsman has given you good general advice and a good suggestion. We can give more specific advice once we know the above information and what your priorities are for the trip. I have a bunch of information I have given to various people over the years and will send some to your email. A lot (and there's a lot of it :) ) has been posted here over time in various threads.

Yes, there are several resorts/outfitters in both the Ely and Gunflint Trail areas that rent cabins and other types of lodging. As stated, you will need to get day use permits to enter the BWCAW that the proprietors can provide. To start, check out the “Lodging” tab above for some of the options. You can visit the websites to see offerings and pricing.

Well, this is good info, i thought the only way to go in was have a permit, then you were done if you came out. I did not know about the day use permit.

The day use permit will make it harder to convince wife to skip the cabin and stay out in the lakes, but if that is what it takes the first trip to convince her,,that is what i will do.

Me: 62 year old, slightly overweight but loosing. Active every weekend on my 40 acres, but have a desk job at my own company. Definitely not an athlete, but can still cut and split my own wood for heat. Good sense of direction, but no formal map training.

Her: 52 year old, slightly overweight, (claims she is loosing,,,. ) She is an ICU nurse, so on her feet a lot at work, but upper body strength is average. She can get lost in our driveway.

We have not been campers, so all equipment will be new and untested other then what we can try out this summer. Yes,,we will be those novices with shiney new equipment,,lol.

I have a carbon fiber prism, she has a 12 ft hornbeck classic. Both canoes are used, in great shape, and both carbon fiber. Prism 29lb Hornbeck 18lb

We have very low experience in the canoes, in fact she has not even tried hers yet. Bought it last week. I have learned to stay upright in the prism this summer. Both will get practiced this coming summer as we live 5 minutes from a small lake that does not allow motors.

We want small wave lakes, and to see a moose, and want to do portages for the chance to stand up and move. We also need to figure out what we can carry, so as our equipment shows up, we will be paddling this summer with loaded canoes. Our ccs pioneer packs showed up 10 minutes ago on the brown truck.


Edit, moved equip list to first post

Contact Clearwater Outfitters, they rent log cabins and can rent you canoes and gear for a trip into the BWCA.

quote boonie:

Northwoodsman has given you good general advice and a good suggestion. We can give more specific advice once we know the above information and what your priorities are for the trip. I have a bunch of information I have given to various people over the years and will send some to your email. A lot (and there's a lot of it :) ) has been posted here over time in various threads.

"

Pleasedo send it. I am reading as fast and much as i can

+ 1 for Rockwood - Carl and Mike are world class. Fun and enjoyable to be around, as well as knowledgeable and helpful.

My take on your equipment list:

You may want to consider renting a tandem canoe for your first trip. Sometimes it's easier to work together and overcome obstacles together. I'm not sure how much paddling experience you have but I prefer a stable canoe over a fast canoe unless you are paddling 10 miles or more a day. The CCS Pioneer packs are a great choice! The Exped 12's may be overkill. Heavy and bulky but certainly reasonable and comfortable. The Katadyn filter is not a reliable option in my opinion. Lots of bad reports over the years. I much prefer a gravity system using a Sawyer filter. They are easy to make yourself or you can buy a system. No moving parts and the filter can be back flushed very easy, as it will need to be at least once a day most likley. The Lifestraws would be good for an emergency but it is a straw. The only way you can use it is to stick it in water and suck water through it. Not very good for filling a water bottle or pot. Try it in a canoe and you will be swimming for sure.

Before investing in any more equipment I would get a trip under your belt first. Most all of the outfitters on this site are very reasonably priced and extremely helpful. They offer many options from heavy duty and indestructible to state of the art carbon fiber and titanium. Several years ago I bought enough equipment to outfit the entire family and then some. Over the past several years I have replaced most of it with lighter equipment more suited to my specific tripping style. In 2015 we took about 180 lbs. of equipment for 2 people (not including canoes & paddles). In 2016 4 of us took about 300 lbs. In 2017 2 of us took 140 lbs. In 2018 2 of us will take 100 lbs. (or possibly 4 with 160 lbs.).

Everything needs to be in a pack on the portage, don't try to carry any loose items. You WILL lose things and forget things, when you slip the last thing you want are two arms loaded with equipment. Portages aren't the place to organize and pack gear. Other people will be waiting to load and unload.

I'll email you my list for 2017 and 2018.

quote Wick: "

quote boonie:


Northwoodsman has given you good general advice and a good suggestion. We can give more specific advice once we know the above information and what your priorities are for the trip. I have a bunch of information I have given to various people over the years and will send some to your email. A lot (and there's a lot of it :) ) has been posted here over time in various threads.


"

Pleasedo send it. I am reading as fast and much as i can"

Sent a little while ago. I'll send more later.

I'm glad Northwoodsman said it, I was going to say it too...

I think a tandem canoe is the way to go. Piloting a solo canoe can be challenging, especially in the wind. Especially especially for a novice. It's a little easier to keep it on track with two people working together. In this case, I think two people in tandem canoe are greater than the sum of its parts separately. At least until you get a little more experience and knowledge and confidence under your belts. It's good that you're going to do some practicing on smaller water first... but the first time you hit big wind and your canoe won't stay on course, it's real easy to get frustrated when you're at the mercy of the wind.

For sure we are going in solo canoes since i already paid for them. Have been talkng to my 2 sons. They may go too. Good strong boys that would enjoy it.

Will go read up on the sawyer filters.

I see the temptation to use what you have and the reason of having a two boats so you can do boat over boat rescues. However, the odds of a capsize, especially for inexperienced paddlers is much much higher with solo canoes. The Hornbeck should be pretty stable if she is sitting in the bottom and using a kayak paddle. Just know that it is a really unusual choice for newcomers. But to each their own. My suggestion is come spring, get in a lot of practice paddles so that you both feel comfortable in your canoes and dealing with capsizes before you head north. It will also get you used to any speed differences between the canoes. The Hornbeck is significantly shorter and could be slower.

Not sure if anyone else suggested it but Kawishiwi Lodge on Lake One has cabins and you can take short overnights in two directions (if you get the right permit, there is also one that is limited to one direction). The direction down the Kawishiwi river is definitely small water. Lake One itself is moderate sized.

A problem could be if they will rent for just a day or two. A lot of places up there only rent for a full week. Some will be more flexible. So, you might need to rent for the full time you are there and just have it be empty while you are out on the water. But that is super convenient as you don't have to pack up all your stuff each time.

I would not bother with a cabin and day trips - Look into the Ely side - Kawishiwi Lodge is on Lake One which is and entry lake (#30). If you go in at One and go over to Lake 3 or 4 you will not need a cabin. Just do a few days, you can't go too far wrong, make notes and do it better next trip. Save the cabin money! Have more faith in your ability. You have all winter to learn.
Don't make this so hard. You can figure things out.

quote andym: . The Hornbeck should be pretty stable if she is sitting in the bottom and using a kayak paddle. Just know that it is a really unusual choice for newcomers.


A problem could be if they will rent for just a day or two. A lot of places up there only rent for a full week. Some will be more flexible. So, you might need to rent for the full time you are there and just have it be empty while you are out on the water. But that is super convenient as you don't have to pack up all your stuff each time. "

Hornbeck is bad choice? I understand that i may have to buy a different canoe this summer if she hates it. I picked it for the stable low seat, and the 18lb light weight for her.

You hit exactly what we thought we would do on the cabin. A couple overnite trips with a cabin to go back to between trips, for wifes peace of mind on first trip to bwca

you should also try out your canoes in OH to make sure you are both comfortable in your own craft. being on OH rivers is really different that BWCA lakes which can be huge or small and it's a lot easier to be paddling as two people in 1 boat than in 2 solos.

try out the Mohican river and also Mohican Canoe Livery. Doug and Patti Shannon will take good care of you. they also have small cabins. they are in Loudenville, OH.

quote Mocha: "you should also try out your canoes in OH to make sure you are both comfortable in your own craft. being on OH rivers is really different that BWCA lakes which can be huge or small and it's a lot easier to be paddling as two people in 1 boat than in 2 solos.


try out the Mohican river and also Mohican Canoe Livery. Doug and Patti Shannon will take good care of you. they also have small cabins. they are in Loudenville, OH."

Trying all the equipment in ohio is the plan. We plan on raising some blisters to get decent in the canoes. I dont know about our carbon fiber canoes in ohio rivers. I have a heavy royalex old town “camper” tandem canoe and a Bell Rockstar solo for ohios rocky shallow rivers. We have the Mad River just 3 miles or so from the house, the Big Darby close by, and 2 or 3 local lakes to put the carbon fiber canoes in for practice that also have campgrounds to set up our camping equipment. Granted the portage will be less then 300 yards from the water, but it will be practice!

Well, we went to the Rockwood site, and the wife looked at their preplanned/suggested routes. Route #2 is described as “easy”. Here is the description.

Start at Poplar, go through Lizz to Caribou, Horseshoe, Vista, and return. Super walleye and northern fishing. Beautiful country and short portages. Three to four days average. Easy.

She is leaning toward skipping the cabin and going for the “easy” trip. I am making progress here! Lol,,,whatever it takes to get her to go once and get introduced to it.

I tripped in that area just a few months ago. We were two significantly overweight and out of shape guys and we made it from Rockwood Lodge to mid Gaskin Lake in under 5 hours, double portaging, stopping for lunch, and checking out every campsite along the way. The long portage from Horseshoe to Gaskin is the toughest part of the trip, but it's still easier than many portages. You can also do 3 smaller portages through Allen into Gaskin. Gaskin is a beautiful lake with some really nice campsites. Vista has a really nice campsite at the south end. Caribou is heavily used and not at all challenging to get to so you will likely want to keep going. Horseshoe is okay.

quote Wick: "Well, we went to the Rockwood site, and the wife looked at their preplanned/suggested routes. Route #2 is described as “easy”. Here is the description.


Start at Poplar, go through Lizz to Caribou, Horseshoe, Vista, and return. Super walleye and northern fishing. Beautiful country and short portages. Three to four days average. Easy.


She is leaning toward skipping the cabin and going for the “easy” trip. I am making progress here! Lol,,,whatever it takes to get her to go once and get introduced to it. "

That's what Steve and I did the first day of our trip in Sept. Here is his report on it.

Here is a link to my photo albums on Shutterfly with a few pictures from the trip.

It's not very far to Vista. I think it was 7 1/2 - 8 miles (double portage) to Vista from the public landing, so probably a 1/2 mile less from Rockwood. I think it took us about 3 hours to the south camp on Vista. No tough portages - a couple of rocky landings, a rocky trail between Horseshoe and Vista. You could stay a night on Horseshoe, a night on Vista, and a night on Horseshoe if three nights is what you have.

I love that area and have been there several times. 1 time with my wife we entered Lizz and basecamped on Gaskin doing daytrips to surrounding lakes. 1 time I entered at Meeds w/ a buddy and spent 2 nights on Pillsbury and 1 night on Horseshoe before exiting through Lizz. 1 time I entered at Lizz w/ my then 7 yo daughter and basecamped on Caribou. 1 time I entered solo at Morgan and exited through Lizz. We've also daytripped a couple of times entering at Lizz and exiting through Swamp.

Beautiful small lakes, portages are fairly easy, decent fishing, and Horseshoe has a reputation as being The Moose Highway.

Carl and Mike just finished their 2nd year as the new owners at Rockwood and they are doing an outstanding job. I really like staying in their bunkhouse the night before entering. $40 for 2 people, private bathroom, view of the lake, and you can push off from their beach at first light getting a head start on other trippers. Just make sure you have them issue you your permit the night before so you can leave before they open up in the morning.

Why not an option to the cabin idea, instead camping at a camprgound on an entry point. There are several, you can check out your gear, day trip as you wish, yet stay next to your vehicle each nite. Examples, Trails End, Sawbill Lake, both have outfitters at campgrounds.
Fall Lake with direct access and in neighboring several outfitters. Other campgrounds are available these hit east middle and west.

butthead

PS; On a side note you mentioned you are 62, check out the Senior Pass lifetime or anual even the lifetime at $80 is a bargain if you do any US Park or camp visits. Save 50% on permits and USFS campgrounds, possibly more (like free), on park entries such as Yellowstone, Zion, and so forth. bh

quote butthead: "Why not an option to the cabin idea, instead camping at a camprgound on an entry point. There are several, you can check out your gear, day trip as you wish, yet stay next to your vehicle each nite. Examples, Trails End, Sawbill Lake, both have outfitters at campgrounds.
Fall Lake with direct access and in neighboring several outfitters. Other campgrounds are available these hit east middle and west.


butthead

PS; On a side note you mentioned you are 62, check out the Senior Pass lifetime or anual even the lifetime at $80 is a bargain if you do any US Park or camp visits. Save 50% on permits and USFS campgrounds, possibly more (like free), on park entries such as Yellowstone, Zion, and so forth. bh"

That is something to consider. I gotta say though, I don’t really dance with joy at the idea of lots of people around at a campgrounds. I am more at ease with not a lot of people around. My wife is opposite, she likes people and can talk to anyone.

I will look at that “old people pass” :) I get a little ribbing from the wife unit about senior discounts now.

Based on your recent comment, Sawbill Lake Campground would be an excellent choice.

The campgrounds listed are not your typical campgrounds. They are pretty remote, quiet and off the beaten path. You see a few people but they are not on top of you. Just saying.....if you decide to give them a chance.

One more thing to consider is the fact that during "canoe season", it can be hard to get cabins for single nights. Bunkhouses yes....cabins no. Reservations for cabins, campground sites and even bunkhouses sometimes need to be made months ahead of time. You may want to consider this during your planning.

I can’t say it is a bad choice. Hornbeck says it is stable and handles rough water. Those are good things. However, it will be slower. Shorter boats are slower. Wider boats are slower. The Hornbeck classic 12 is both shorter and wider than that Prism. If you can fit in the gear you need between both boats then you will just need to adjust paddling to match her speed. And realize that she may be working harder than you.

And I do understand being cautious with those boats on Ohio rivers. We were in Columbus for a wedding before our first trip and headed to southern Ohio to do a day trip on a river. I remember a lot of rocks and not a ton of water. Fortunately, we were paddling a rented Royalex boat.

quote andym: And realize that she may be working harder than you."

Lol,,she always does.

When a canoe is slower, are we talking speed differences that can be recognized by anyone, or is this one of those things that is very small and not really important to non-experts.

My prism on top, her hornbeck under the prism. There is a lot of difference.

"I will look at that “old people pass” :) I get a little ribbing from the wife unit about senior discounts now."

My wife's reaction also! Until we went to a pile of National Parks from Yellowstone thru Rushmore, without paying anything.

butthead

quote Wick: "

quote andym: And realize that she may be working harder than you."

Lol,,she always does.


When a canoe is slower, are we talking speed differences that can be recognized by anyone, or is this one of those things that is very small and not really important to non-experts."

I would say that speed difference between 2 canoes will be noticeable in a very short time whether you are expert or novice. I saw someone mention a benefit of 2 boats being that you could perform a canoe-over-canoe rescue in case of capsize... much easier said than done. I like the idea for beginners to work as a team together in one canoe.

I was trying to come up with a good reason for two canoes and rescues is one. But I agree that they could be hard in solos. But practice makes perfect.

Are there good trips around sawbill campgrounds for first timers? I have promised the wife small lakes and semi-shorter portages for the intro trip. The sawbill looks like a big lake on their website map?

My purchased maps have not arrived yet.

From Sawbill EP you can go across Sawbill into Alton. From there go up to Kelso. From there back to Sawbill. There are 3 portages; perhaps the 3 shortest, flatest, and easiest in all of the BWCA. You could do this whole loop in a few hours, or you could camp on any of the lakes mentioned. Sawbill isn't bad in wind, but it could be challenging in 2 solo's. Alton has claimed lives, so use caution. Most lakes are glass smooth until around noon or so on a normal day. Kelso is more or less a wide river. You could also head over to Burnt & Smoke Lakes. If you want to try a few nights in the BWCA "roughing" it, get an overnight permit and try it; it's good until you exit the BWCA. If it doesn't work go back to the campground and just day trip. Day permits are free and there is no limit on how many can be issued a day.

You can have the best of both worlds at Sawbill Lake. First you are at a beautiful National Forest campground. One of the nicest you will find. You have an outfitter, store, pay showers and an entry point at the campground. It's a large campground and most likely you can't see your neighbors from most sites. It's in the middle of a dense forest. The entry point and landing is nice. Plenty of room for canoe storage. It's at the end of a very long road so you won't see many people dropping by. You can paddle several different lakes and come back to your campsite every night. The campground and part of Sawbill Lake is outside of the BWCA (but no motors allowed on the lake). Your wife may be comfortable knowing that you will always be within an hour or two of the campground. It is also a 3rd generation outfitter and you won't find nicer people in the world. You can also load up your canoes and try several other EP's in the area. EP #37 Kawishiwi is a very nice lake, perfect for what you want to do. You can also camp at that EP or on the lake itself. #39 Baker Lake will give you small lake paddling so wind wouldn't be an issue. #40 Homer Lake is nothing to write home about and #41 Brule is pretty but known as a very windy lake.

You can also do an almost loop from Sawbill, up the Lady Lakes route to Polly and down to Kawishiwi Lake. Or do it in reverse. Sawbill outfitters will shuttle either way. I've run into newcomers who were doing that route.

Does the time of year make a difference on the location? We think the first or second week of september is our time.

double post,,can’t figure out how to delete it.

Sept. is a great time for BWCA. Water and weather is still somewhat warm. Nights are cooler. The days get shorter however. Another consideration is the humidity and cooler temps in the morning, you may need to let the fog burn off delaying your start until 9:00 a.m. or so on some days.

The Lady Chain has some long and somewhat difficult portages that your wife may not enjoy. Kawishiwi to Polly has 2 short and 2 long portages but they aren't difficult. The portages from Grace to Beth and from Beth to Alton will get you heart pumping. You can do it in 3 long days. 4 days would be a better option. You will encounter 25.3 miles of paddling, and 16 portages and a few beaver damn pullovers. 4 miles of portaging (12 miles if you double portage). It's about 24 hours of paddling and portaging (9 paddling, 12 portaging, and 3 loading/unloading). Once you get dropped off at Kawishiwi you have to commit to making the journey back to the outfitter. There is no cell phone service to call for pick-up. It's a beautiful route, I did it in 2015.

Good to know about the portages along the Lady Chain. I haven’t done that part. Each newcomer has a different background and desires. My wife has done rougher camping than exists in the BW and rougher than anything I’ve done.

This year I ran into a couple doing their first trip at the Lake One landing. They had base camped for about 4 days somewhere on the numbers chain (two short portages) with enough gear to make a cabin look like roughing it. He was trying to make sure she had a great time and I think they’ll be back. But I think she wasn’t committing to it yet.

The couple I saw doing the Lady Chain route may have been experienced wilderness campers. But they weren’t canoeists. At the end of their first day, in which they did Kawishiwi to Polly, they stopped by our site to verify their location and were using their bent shaft paddles backwards. But that was easily fixed and they knew where they were.

And everyone was having a good time. That’s all that matters.

Looks like we went from cabin to campgrounds now,, i am making progress with her.

What will be cloths requirements for sept, 2nd week?

This will help. The averages will be easy to prepare for, but the extremes are another story. You should always be prepared for wet, windy, cool.

quote boonie: " This will help. The averages will be easy to prepare for, but the extremes are another story. You should always be prepared for wet, windy, cool. "

That is a nice weather place, but i guess i was asking about canoe specific cloths,,or do you just wear what you would wear at home in those temps? I was thinking about cold wet feet after the portages too.

Clothes made of synthetic fibers with wicking properties. Quick drying. Cotton clothes hold moisture and will make you feel damp and cold in cooler weather, so avoid. Wool socks hold heat when damp but beware of the possibility of blisters. I have worn socks made of nylon, or some such material, under the wool ones.

If you want to be a hero get your wife a pair of Chota Hippies and boots to go with them. I never got my feet wet on my last trip. For people that hate wet feet, these are a deal-breaker.

quote Wick: "

quote boonie: " This will help. The averages will be easy to prepare for, but the extremes are another story. You should always be prepared for wet, windy, cool. "

That is a nice weather place, but i guess i was asking about canoe specific cloths,,or do you just wear what you would wear at home in those temps? I was thinking about cold wet feet after the portages too. "

My bad. I thought clothing/footwear was part of what I emailed you, but will send it soon. One decision you'll have to make is whether to be a "wet-footer" or "dry-footer". I started out as dry foot with tall "barn boots" or similar, but prefer to wet-foot now when possible for the simplicity. The second week of Sept., I'd likely be wet-footing. I wear wool socks with a pair of OTB water boots (they drain), no longer made, but look to be very similar to Altama boots in another thread here. Others wet foot in sandals, Keens, sneakers, jungle boots, Five Fingers, you name it. I prefer an ankle high boot to a low cut shoe - less likely to lose to "boot-sucking" mud. I prefer more foot protection than sandals or Keens provide. I tried Keens, but too much stuff got in under the foot. I have some Knee-high Chota boots - no longer made - but are similar to Muck Boots, which are popular in colder water/weather.

Either way you'll want dry socks and "camp shoes". I use old running/hiking shoes, some use "crocs", etc. Search footwear on here - it's a big topic with a lot of variations and personal preferences.

Clothing - layers of nylon, polyester, wool. NO cotton - it loves water, dries slowly, not a good thing in cool, damp, windy weather. I like my Under Armor and merino wool base layers, ExOfficio underwear, nylon pants and shirt, fleece, Goretex rain suit.

What does OTB mean? Are all otb shoes self draining?

Side note, pack is up to 25lb

My wife trips in wet suit booties with a thick sole. No worries about being cold when wet footing.

I use Chota Quetico Trekkers with the wet suit socks. They may only be available from Piragis.com. They give me more support and also keep me warm.

I’m thinking of switching to wool socks. I day trip in keen sandals (h2 Newport, iirc) and could wear socks with those too. I wade in and out of the water here with keens and wool socks and our water is pretty cold and I can do that all day and go out to dinner without switching to dry footwear. Wool works quite well.

No cotton in any of our clothes.

Weather extremes are all that matters when camping. We’ve had both swimming weather and ice in the morning in the first half of September. And that’s on the same trip.

Btw, you will get more input on clothes and gear in the gear forum.

quote Wick: "What does OTB mean? Are all otb shoes self draining?


Side note, pack is up to 25lb"

OTB was the maker, like Keen or Red Wing is a maker of footwear. I do not know what, if anything, OTB is an acronym for. Not all OTB footwear was self draining. The OTB Abyss was, it's what I have. Note the past tense. New Balance made the Abyss later. I also have a pair made by New Balance. You may find some used ones or something on Ebay, but I'd look for some other brand that makes portage shoes/boots - such as Chota, Five Ten, Baffin, etc. Many people use wading boots. Some people drill holes in the bottom of old non-waterproof hiking boots. As near as I can tell, people have tried just about everything. I like my Abyss boots, but soon they will wear out and I'll have to replace them with something else; I'm not sure what that will be. The Altama boots in
this thread appear to be almost exactly the same.

I sent you another email Wick.

BTW, what's in the 25-lb. pack and what's not?
Do you have any idea on what the maximum carry weights might be for you and your wife?

quote boonie: "I sent you another email Wick.

BTW, what's in the 25-lb. pack and what's not?
Do you have any idea on what the maximum carry weights might be for you and your wife?"

I got the email. That was a perfect example/explanation, just the mental image i needed to begin my canoeing wardrobe,,thanks. There will be a few cloths needed i did not anticipate. We both need footware for the trip. She likes the keens she saw at rei. I want more of a boot.

I have been editing the list of equipment in the 1st post to show what i am collecting. As i get the stuff in my hands i am stuffing it in the pack. This process makes you care about ounces! Both packs have been the same up to the tent. I put that heavy thing in my pack. We are thinking of a food barrel to be added to hers next. Then, the cloths are next.

From trying on this 25lb pack,,i am betting 45-50lb will be max. I may throw some dummy weight in this weekend and go for a walk. What is average pack weight for older people?

Are long sleeves and pants needed for protection on portages?

They could be of help on some portages, but long sleeves and pants also provide protection from sun and insects. Anyway, by the 2nd week of September the average high is in the mid 60s, so I would wear them for warmth.

I would go with the long sleeves and pants for the reasons inspector13 stated. You can always roll the sleeves up - many of the shirts I wear have button tabs to hold them up. You can roll the pants up, too, or buy the ones with zip off legs, but I no longer buy bother with those. A warning (and don't ask me how I know this) - it's easy to burn the tops of your legs/knees sitting in a canoe paddling.

Besides the Altama and Chota portage boots already mentioned, here is another option

and another

I have no experience with these, but may get a pair of the Five Tennies at that price to try. They have a reputation for superior traction/grip, which is an important consideration for me as I get older. Besides the portages themselves with roots and rocks, the portage landings are sometimes rocky and awkward positions for getting packs in and out of the canoe. Remember, the wilderness is not a manicured city park. And the BW is a little different from WV and OH ;).

Yes, the process does make you care about ounces! And pounds too! And the actual experience will make you care about them even more!

You'll be glad you are paying attention to it now. I just can't remember a trip report from any first-timer who said they wished they'd carried more weight, but a lot of people say they are taking a lot less next time!

Taking your packs/canoes for walks/hikes would be a good test and on a continuing basis over the summer, good training for your trip. I think you are pretty close on your pack weight. Your wife may want less. My maximum load is about 40-50 lbs., but less is better. A quarter to a third of body weight is a general recommendation for pack weight, but the lower it is the better.

I may have some other relevant information I gave my sister and friends. I'll email it to you if I find it.

I would think 40 lbs would be average for packs. Sure you have your ultra light crowd, but you don't want your wife to hate it because you don't have enough to be comfortable. I didn't read ALL the posts but did anyone mention chairs? There are lightweight options out there. Use the search bar here. One other thing I recommend are more socks than you think. Dry feet= more comfort. I am still trying to get my wife on a second trip. Pete

quote Wick: "What does OTB mean? Are all otb shoes self draining?


Side note, pack is up to 25lb"

OTB is short for Over the Beach. It's a military term and has been used in connection to products that were designed for combat use. As I understand it, the original OTB Abyss boot was designed by former military personnel on a contract with the navy for use by SEAL teams, and then it was taken over by New Balance. New Balance discontinued making the boots some time later.

quote pswith5: I didn't read ALL the posts but did anyone mention chairs? There are lightweight options out there. Pete"

we thought we would use the seat backs from our river canoe, but these light weight canoes we are taking on this adventure do not use those. Hornbeck is a foam seat on the bottom, and my prism is the tractor seat, so I do not have the seating worked out yet.

My back likes me to stand up after being seated for any length of time, so i will be glad for the portages and setting up camp, but after dark, it would get boring just standing there!

My back doesn't do well with prolonged sitting either and the lower the chair the worse it is, so I prefer to just sit on the logs/rocks. The campsites almost always have log bench type arrangements around the fire pit and many have nice granite outcrops to sit on where I can stretch out my legs. I also find I don't really need any additions to the canoe seats. I did take a closed cell foam "butt pad" last year as a concession to my old age ;). Bear canisters also make a nice seat if you take one. Not taking a chair saves a lot of weight and bulk. Something to think about, although YMMV.

I have seen some pictures of campsites and noticed the logs and stuff setting around. I wondered if most campsites would have them. That would let me just attach a lightweight piece of foam to my pack. I have a waterjet shop. We cut some great foam the other day. I have 10 or so pieces that will make perfect seat pads, and i noticed chairs are heavy and expensive. I see some camp chairs are 25% off at rei right now if anyone else is looking.

I think i will save my pack weight for cloths and food right now. I am not looking forward to cloths shopping. I’m a “stuck in my ways” (boring) kind of guy when it comes to cloths.

I am semi excited about the boots! Everything so far looks like tennis shoes. The altima had a review, very first one, that warned people with wide feet that they would be tight. Naturally, i have extra wide feet. :)

Can’t find a place selling the Baffins