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ghamer
distinguished member (312)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
06/21/2018 04:05PM
When we got our permit at the Grand Marais ranger station in May, the ranger told us that some rule changes may be coming for next year. Like further restrictions on plastic bottles. Also changing the distance from 150 ft to 200 ft behind camp for emptying dishwater, etc.
She also said we can look forward to a new and updated video.

Has anyone else heard anything about this?
 
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06/21/2018 08:44PM
Your post is the first I heard of it, Gary.
Savage Voyageur
distinguished member(13068)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished membermaster membermaster member
 
06/21/2018 09:17PM
Wow, I’m going to start stocking up on Nalgene bottles. Oh wait they are plastic too, hmmm.
06/21/2018 10:39PM
Meh - IDK, we're admittedly bonkers overly protective of how close we have any foodstuff near our campsite. I always hike our dishwater like 400 feet from camp and tie our URSAK like a 1/4 mile from camp anyways.

LOL.

Say "overly cautious much"?
gsfisher13
distinguished member(1439)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
06/21/2018 11:23PM
The outfitter we use in Ely mentioned there have been many more reported incidents of ignorant people washing dishes and disposing of leftover food in the lakes. I'm guessing they will update the rules and video and force hopefully everyone to watch it again. I'd rather not have my lake water tasting like Dawn or Ivory.
dew042
distinguished member (230)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
06/22/2018 12:40AM
gsfisher13: "The outfitter we use in Ely mentioned there have been many more reported incidents of ignorant people washing dishes and disposing of leftover food in the lakes. I'm guessing they will update the rules and video and force hopefully everyone to watch it again. I'd rather not have my lake water tasting like Dawn or Ivory."

There's a pretty saucy USFS comment from this thread that gave me a chuckle, I bet its related: http://bwca.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=forum.thread&threadId=1097142&forumID=16&confID=1

MooseTrack: "
• A bear who gets food from campers makes the connection. Campers are like pizza delivery staff on a college campus—follow the scent and they’ll find the party. Burning food waste or dropping fishguts behind the site is like throwing up McDonald’s golden arches over the site. Bears climb and they swim (very well).
Leaving a trace (and more) of soap in the water:
• Our crews have been finding a weird number of people washing their dishes and themselves in the lake. One group thought that as long as they didn’t use soap it was OK for them to scrub the coagulated potatoes and cheese into the lake. Wonder how their coffee tasted the next morning? Another group followed bath time (with a bar of soap) with dishwashing. What do we do? Hand them a scoop of bathwater with a straw in it? Yum. "
shock
distinguished member(3444)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
06/22/2018 12:52AM
having seen the current video many times , i welcome a new video .
i remember stopping at the old courthouse in Duluth and going up to the 4th floor ?? grab our permit and we were gone :)
riverrunner
distinguished member(1709)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
06/22/2018 07:57AM
People who are slobs are slobs not matter what the rules say,

Why punish all that obey with over regulations.
HowardSprague
distinguished member(2759)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
06/22/2018 08:01AM
gosh,....I thought it was 100!
06/22/2018 08:20AM
I find this interesting, as most of the people on here say that no one makes them watch the video anyway. In more than 25 trips over 43 years we ALWAYS had to watch the video! I guess we looked suspicious, or we had especially conscientious people at the places where we picked up our permits. A variety of places: Ranger Stations, some outfitters, etc. I have seen the video enough times that I knew every change they made in it down through the years!

:-) Once they have a new one, I'll have to look it up just for old times' sake!
06/22/2018 08:39AM
When I got my permit at the Tofte Ranger Station in May they didn't mention the new rules and video but she really emphasized some of the things a lot more than I've seen before. She said to make sure that you're more than 150 ft away go beyond the latrine to dump dishwater. She said that to dispose of fish remains that you should paddle away from camp and portages and then walk back into the woods more than 150 feet. She emphasized that walking back 150 ft from a campsite is too close for you and for the next group to camp there so don't do it. She also really emphasized fire safety because back then it was very dry so she spent a lot of time encouraging the other group taking the quiz with me to not have a campfire. The whole time I was thinking 1. I won't be having a fire (haven't had one in my last 10 trips) 2. I won't be cleaning/eating fish this trip (I only do that on daddy/daughter trips and only 1 meal) and 3. I won't have any dishwater because I won't have any dishes to do ;)
hobbydog
distinguished member(1983)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
06/22/2018 08:55AM
riverrunner: "People who are slobs are slobs not matter what the rules say,


Why punish all that obey with over regulations."
I agree, the regs mentioned are very hard to enforce and those that wash in the lake or break them now will not change their habits. The way to change it is to really focus on the outfitters that cater to first time users. Once habits are formed, no changes to the law or the video will alter bad habits.
em8260
senior member (70)senior membersenior member
 
06/22/2018 10:17AM
Move the washing 50ft back? But its ok to build a mine....gotcha...delusional.
Pinetree
distinguished member(12562)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished membermaster membermaster member
 
06/22/2018 11:50AM
I see a lot of people when they pull camp they throw a lot of remaining food into the fire grill.
Thus inviting bear visits and it looks like heck.

I do and will say I think people in general are much better than years ago. I will also mention certain areas of the BWCA get a different clientele and there is a big difference of blatant ignorance and some of it is on purpose at a few sites.
mschi772
distinguished member (175)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
06/22/2018 01:15PM
em8260: "Move the washing 50ft back? But its ok to build a mine....gotcha...delusional."

Please understand that the people deciding what the cathole/gray water rules for camp sites and the people deciding if mining is allowed are VERY different people. Comments like this are helpful to neither the LNT rules nor the mining discussion. I understand how frustrating it can be, but flippant remarks won't solve anything. I get wanting to vent--I really do. However, and I can only speak for myself here, please try to be thoughtful, thorough, and constructive if you're going to weigh in on the subject as I believe that if everyone, on both sides of the issue, did their best in this regard, there would be more hope of settling the issue sooner and more satisfactorily.
tumblehome
distinguished member(1416)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
06/22/2018 02:46PM
He beat me to it! It might be different people making the rules for a sulfide mine and those not wanting me to wash in a Lake but you have to see the irony!

The USFS motto is "Caring for the land, serving the people".

But why should anyone care about soap in the water when the worlds largest copper mine is on the other side of camp? Help me understand. Help...

Tom
andym
distinguished member(4108)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
 
06/22/2018 07:49PM
It does sound like a good idea to reinforce the importance of not washing dishes or dumping food into the lakes. I wonder if the new video will discuss what goes wrong when people don't follow the rules. Some focus on the impact of breaking the rules might help drive home their importance. That might be more important than adding another 50' when people are probably pretty bad at judging distance. I like the idea of emphasizing as far from the water as the latrine. That's something people will have found at each campsite.
yogi59weedr
distinguished member(2005)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
06/22/2018 09:20PM
Who has dish water?wipe out with paper towel and be done with it.....im not walking 150 feet into the woods to dump water.
06/22/2018 09:53PM
yogi59weedr: "Who has dish water?wipe out with paper towel and be done with it.....im not walking 150 feet into the woods to dump water. "



Depending what I'm cooking. I have meals I do that with but washing dishes is an important task for many. One thing I practice at home is soap amounts that cut whatever I'm washing. Using a big squirt for a small amount of water is kind of part of the problem too. There are extremes... As far as the mine... We control what we can and hopefully the mine will do it's part... Maybe.
06/22/2018 10:30PM
Spartan2: "I find this interesting, as most of the people on here say that no one makes them watch the video anyway. In more than 25 trips over 43 years we ALWAYS had to watch the video! I guess we looked suspicious, or we had especially conscientious people at the places where we picked up our permits. A variety of places: Ranger Stations, some outfitters, etc. I have seen the video enough times that I knew every change they made in it down through the years!


:-) Once they have a new one, I'll have to look it up just for old times' sake!"


Yea I don’t know what my issue is but I have never gotten out of the video either :)
Whether picking up at the outfitter or at the Forest service always watch the video.

T
jhb8426
distinguished member(660)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
06/22/2018 10:44PM
Ummm, what would be an alternative to a plastic water bottle?
Canoearoo
distinguished member(2178)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
06/23/2018 12:17AM
timatkn: "Spartan2: "I find this interesting, as most of the people on here say that no one makes them watch the video anyway. In more than 25 trips over 43 years we ALWAYS had to watch the video! I guess we looked suspicious, or we had especially conscientious people at the places where we picked up our permits. A variety of places: Ranger Stations, some outfitters, etc. I have seen the video enough times that I knew every change they made in it down through the years!



:-) Once they have a new one, I'll have to look it up just for old times' sake!"



Yea I don’t know what my issue is but I have never gotten out of the video either :)
Whether picking up at the outfitter or at the Forest service always watch the video.


T"


Just bring some kids with you on a busy permit day. They want you out fast on those days. We haven't seen a video in 3 years. They tell the kids if they can answer all the questions on the back of the permit perfectly without help they can skip the video. They get them right every time.
proepro
member (33)member
 
06/23/2018 02:15PM
Is the video available online to show kids before we go?
shock
distinguished member(3444)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
06/23/2018 03:06PM
yogi59weedr: "Who has dish water?wipe out with paper towel and be done with it.....im not walking 150 feet into the woods to dump water. " +1
schweady
distinguished member(6687)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
 
06/23/2018 07:13PM
proepro: "Is the video available online to show kids before we go?"
Leave No Trace video
annlikesbass2
member (25)member
 
06/27/2018 02:59PM
There will be a new video and shorter. I welcome one too. The national LNT standard is 200 feet from water. I think they're just keeping up with the times. 200 feet has been a standard everywhere for a very long time. I asked the forest service about the plastic bottle thing - rules aren't changing, but getting clarified. However, the regulation has always been tied to using containers that are meant for reuse and not disposable. Unfortunately, people melt those that aren't reusable Nalgene bottles in the fire grates, throw them in the latrines, etc. I don't get it because once they are empty, they don't weigh a thing. Oh well.
annlikesbass2
member (25)member
 
06/27/2018 03:05PM
Multiple use-Sustained Yield Act and outdated mining laws. The Forest Service by law has to provide certain uses. And the BLM oversees the minerals. It's complicated. Those people talking to you about water quality from soap are just doing the best they can with where they can, and have nothing to do with mining of course. With sunscreen, deet, soap, leaking latrines, etc., I worry about water quality too. And maybe the mines won't happen...?
andym
distinguished member(4108)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
 
06/27/2018 05:24PM
I was wondering if they might want to cut down on not generally reused plastic bottles such as soda and beer. Interestingly, some ultralight campers use soda bottles to carry fuel for alcohol stoves. It works and they are very light. But I can imagine a lot get left behind.
Pinetree
distinguished member(12562)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished membermaster membermaster member
 
06/27/2018 05:41PM
andym: "I was wondering if they might want to cut down on not generally reused plastic bottles such as soda and beer. Interestingly, some ultralight campers use soda bottles to carry fuel for alcohol stoves. It works and they are very light. But I can imagine a lot get left behind."

I use a soda pop plastic bottle for my drinking bottle. Nice and ligtweight and I have a spare empty one in my pack if needed.
mjmkjun
distinguished member(2051)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
06/28/2018 05:43AM
riverrunner: "People who are slobs are slobs not matter what the rules say,


Why punish all that obey with over regulations."

Exactly my thoughts on the matter. "Slobs" are lazy types. Won't change that with 'new and improved' regulations. It will fall on deaf ears just like old regulations.
If ya keep pushing the perimeter further away from campsites you'll have the inexperienced ones turned around in the woods. More S&R on the horizon.
06/28/2018 07:22AM
Canoearoo: "timatkn: "Spartan2: "I find this interesting, as most of the people on here say that no one makes them watch the video anyway. In more than 25 trips over 43 years we ALWAYS had to watch the video! I guess we looked suspicious, or we had especially conscientious people at the places where we picked up our permits. A variety of places: Ranger Stations, some outfitters, etc. I have seen the video enough times that I knew every change they made in it down through the years!

:-) Once they have a new one, I'll have to look it up just for old times' sake!"

Yea I don’t know what my issue is but I have never gotten out of the video either :)
Whether picking up at the outfitter or at the Forest service always watch the video.

T"

Just bring some kids with you on a busy permit day. They want you out fast on those days. We haven't seen a video in 3 years. They tell the kids if they can answer all the questions on the back of the permit perfectly without help they can skip the video. They get them right every time. "

I did that! :) went to the FS center in Ely 2015, made the family watch the video and then quizzed the kids (5 and 8) afterwards...not a big deal, good education just surprised so many people get out of it. In 2015 Maverick and I picked up a permit entry from Canada at VNO and I swear Lynn had us watch the video...not complaining once again I think consistent enforcement is key to LNT education, but it doesn’t seem like they do that. Maybe they should focus on that before changing the rules?

T
aruthenb
member (17)member
 
06/28/2018 08:00AM
During our check in at the Kawishiwi Ranger Station in Ely a couple weeks ago they also discussed the 200 foot setback from water for washing dishes, etc. As previously said here, it is updated to follow the national Leave No Trace standards. They did not mention any other changes at that time to us. They recommended we try and follow the 200 ft rule on our trip which we did, not a big deal, most campsites have trails way back in anyways.

I was upset on Agnes Lake with campsites that had garbage in fire pits and the portages out of EP16 which were strewn with garbage. Every portage had a short trail that led to an area everyone used as a bathroom with toliet paper everywhere and nothing buried, it was very disheartening. It was nice to be further north and over on EP19 earlier in our trip where we saw none of this.
ozarkpaddler
distinguished member(5324)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
 
06/28/2018 08:45AM
aruthenb: " Every portage had a short trail that led to an area everyone used as a bathroom with toliet paper everywhere and nothing buried, it was very disheartening. "

I know I'm taking the thread in a mite different direction, but GOOD GRIEF when did people start thinking we all want to see their waste? I've noticed it worsening on the rivers here in the Ozarks AND up north. That's something that used to be rare, but it seems almost like our culture no longer cares about the next person walking past? It's one of my pet peeves and I wish there was a damn large fine for doing so!
heavylunch
member (34)member
 
06/28/2018 08:55AM
Pinetree: "andym: "I was wondering if they might want to cut down on not generally reused plastic bottles such as soda and beer. Interestingly, some ultralight campers use soda bottles to carry fuel for alcohol stoves. It works and they are very light. But I can imagine a lot get left behind."


I use a soda pop plastic bottle for my drinking bottle. Nice and ligtweight and I have a spare empty one in my pack if needed."


I have nalgene bottles but for the last few years I have switched to just old plastic water bottles and pop bottles too. Lighter, cheaper, and just more convenient in general. I would be bummed to have to go back to my nalgenes honestly.
pswith5
distinguished member(3288)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
06/28/2018 10:17AM
1. Option instead of nalgene? Bota bag! :) 2. This is not a mining thread! 3. More enforcement! If this means my permit goes up a few bucks ; I am ok with that. Plus you can fine offenders for revenue. 4. The current video is outdated, I welcome a new one.
pswith5
distinguished member(3288)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
06/28/2018 10:17AM
5. Double post :(
Canoearoo
distinguished member(2178)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
06/28/2018 10:37AM
schweady: "proepro: "Is the video available online to show kids before we go?"
Leave No Trace video
"

Just watch the video. Anyone notice it said hang your food 12 feet high and 6 feet from the tree but the example was no where close to 6 feet from the tree? And they don't give out those bwca garbage bags anymore.
Pinetree
distinguished member(12562)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished membermaster membermaster member
 
06/28/2018 12:57PM
Canoearoo: "schweady: "proepro: "Is the video available online to show kids before we go?"
Leave No Trace video
"

Just watch the video. Anyone notice it said hang your food 12 feet high and 6 feet from the tree but the example was no where close to 6 feet from the tree? And they don't give out those bwca garbage bags anymore. "


I think I asked for a BWCA bag last year and got one. I wonder if so many people didn't use them they slowed down giving them out. They use to write your permitnumber on them.
The Great Outdoors
distinguished member(5580)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
 
06/28/2018 02:42PM
em8260: "Move the washing 50ft back? But its ok to build a mine....gotcha...delusional."
Not to worry, by the time the USFS gets done with their new regulations the only thing left in the area will be a Mine!!
ghamer
distinguished member (312)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
06/28/2018 07:19PM
pswith5: " 1. Option instead of nalgene? Bota bag! :) 2. This is not a mining thread! 3. More enforcement! If this means my permit goes up a few bucks ; I am ok with that. Plus you can fine offenders for revenue. 4. The current video is outdated, I welcome a new one."

Thanks pswith5... especially #2... plenty of those already :-) !

I still use a Nalgene for my water, but I would consider a Playpus if I needed to cut down on bulk/ weight. The only potential effect of a tighter plastic ban on us would be our squeeze Parkay bottle.
We switched over to taking a 2 gal zip lock for garbage... it really cuts down on the odors. Even on our 12-day trip this May/ June with lots of warm weather.
The last couple years the ranger gave us a card that says we don't have to watch the video a second time after seeing it once earlier in the year.
Good discussion folks!
billconner
distinguished member(6640)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
 
06/29/2018 04:20PM
Just finished a trip in High Uintas Wilderness, situated in a couple of USFS forests. Rule is to pack out tp. Could come yo BWCAW i suppose. Wasnt bad. Red a tip to put some powdered bleach in the ziplock for used tp.

We still packed out a cans, paper, etc. left by others. No-no other tp.
bottomtothetap
distinguished member(749)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
07/09/2018 03:21PM
Will the new video still show people gently patting their poop into the ground with their fingers as is shown in the current video at 4:50?
Savage Voyageur
distinguished member(13068)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished membermaster membermaster member
 
07/09/2018 05:59PM
yogi59weedr: "Who has dish water?wipe out with paper towel and be done with it.....im not walking 150 feet into the woods to dump water. "

Might work for a solo trip. Our trips have between 6-8 guys. Dish soap is a necessity for more reasons than one.
mjmkjun
distinguished member(2051)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
07/09/2018 06:18PM
bottomtothetap: "Will the new video still show people gently patting their poop into the ground with their fingers as is shown in the current video at 4:50?"
LOL! I've watched the video several times and I have to admit that I had not given much attention to that segment till this past trip out of Sawbill. Why in the world would they encourage people to do that? I could understand a shoe but using one's hand is just plain gross.
yogi59weedr
distinguished member(2005)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
07/09/2018 09:34PM
Anyone heard any scuttlebutt about how the lottery will be replaced? I was having a beer in a guides garage couple weeks ago in Ely, and he had not heard anything about the lottery being replaced.
Pinetree
distinguished member(12562)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished membermaster membermaster member
 
07/09/2018 10:26PM
yogi59weedr: "Anyone heard any scuttlebutt about how the lottery will be replaced? I was having a beer in a guides garage couple weeks ago in Ely, and he had not heard anything about the lottery being replaced."

lottery
emptynest56
distinguished member(847)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
07/10/2018 09:19AM
I wish, Oh, I so wish, that mention would be made in videos to please not lay an axe to live campsite trees, and then show videos of the damaged trees by all the little, bored, Daniel Boone wannabes. Those little t**d monkeys are literally killing our shade. Don't encourage the FS to ban axes and hatchets.
Savage Voyageur
distinguished member(13068)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished membermaster membermaster member
 
07/10/2018 09:52AM
Pinetree: "yogi59weedr: "Anyone heard any scuttlebutt about how the lottery will be replaced? I was having a beer in a guides garage couple weeks ago in Ely, and he had not heard anything about the lottery being replaced."


lottery "


I can see the website crashing the minute they open the site. We shall see...
A1t2o
distinguished member(549)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
07/10/2018 12:37PM
What about my .75 of alcohol? Am I going to have to put it into a different container when the one it comes with is very light and exactly the right size? How about my plastic tea bottle that I always get on the way in? That's what I mix my alcohol in with water. I could see going without the tea bottle, even though it is so convenient, but the alcohol bottle might be one that I would have to bend the rules on until I was told otherwise by an officer. I don't think that is how they would intend the rule to apply and depending on how it is written it may not apply to it at all, so I'm not going to pay too much attention to it yet.
Soledad
distinguished member(1737)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
07/10/2018 01:53PM
Hope they can hire some more rangers to enforce the laws.
Pinetree
distinguished member(12562)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished membermaster membermaster member
 
07/10/2018 02:05PM
Soledad: "Hope they can hire some more rangers to enforce the laws."

The National forest budgets outside of firefighting are probably the lowest in 50 years. I know the 1960's they had more than double the staff they now have in Superior national forest.
VoyageurNorth
distinguished member(2550)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
07/13/2018 11:55PM
T"
"
I did that! :) went to the FS center in Ely 2015, made the family watch the video and then quizzed the kids (5 and 8) afterwards...not a big deal, good education just surprised so many people get out of it. In 2015 Maverick and I picked up a permit entry from Canada at VNO and I swear Lynn had us watch the video...not complaining once again I think consistent enforcement is key to LNT education, but it doesn’t seem like they do that. Maybe they should focus on that before changing the rules?
T"

That made me laugh! I think I have done that a couple times! :-) The rules are almost the same. But since it was a "from Canada" permit, it meant that you were camping in the BWCA for the end of your trip, so..............

The Quetico used to have us go over the rules & regulations with people & then issue those people a card designating that so they could get through the Ranger Station quicker & it was good for 2 years. We got a Quetico book with flip over pages and if you ever looked at it, it could almost be a BWCA reg book.

I must admit, I am a bit of a "stickler" for watching the video. After all, it is in my cooperator agreement that I make sure people do and if you haven't seen it in two years, then I make you do it again.
HowardSprague
distinguished member(2759)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
07/16/2018 09:59AM
nctry: "yogi59weedr: "Who has dish water?wipe out with paper towel and be done with it.....im not walking 150 feet into the woods to dump water. "



Depending what I'm cooking. I have meals I do that with but washing dishes is an important task for many. One thing I practice at home is soap amounts that cut whatever I'm washing. Using a big squirt for a small amount of water is kind of part of the problem too. There are extremes... As far as the mine... We control what we can and hopefully the mine will do it's part... Maybe."


YES! It bugs me at home, others in the household use up the dishwashing liquid - and even Softsoap for handwashing - so quickly. A few drops will take care of a sinkful of dishes, and hand soap doesn't have to cover the whole palm of the hand....I protest at home to no avail. On my own, a bottle of Dawn would last me months, now with me + wife + daughter + mother in law, it barely lasts a couple of weeks. The numbers don't work out!
07/16/2018 02:34PM
don't see how forcing people to watch a video is going to help whether it is new or not. One has to want to learn.

Personally I like the reminders and watch the video, but I want to learn, I want to LNT. Some people just don't care.

How about no alcohol and no music other than from headphones? IMHO, those 2 rules would weed out the majority of people who aren't interested in LNT. (not that everyone who drinks is a problem, but clearly alcohol is a major risk for bad behavior.)
A1t2o
distinguished member(549)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished member
 
07/16/2018 03:11PM
drnatus: "How about no alcohol and no music other than from headphones? IMHO, those 2 rules would weed out the majority of people who aren't interested in LNT. (not that everyone who drinks is a problem, but clearly alcohol is a major risk for bad behavior.)"

More like weed out a majority of people.

I think that both of those rules would be going a bit far. Sure some people head in, get drunk and don't respect the rules, but I think that people that are not going to respect the rules are going to do so regardless of if they are drinking. Plus there are a lot of people who DO respect and follow the rules that enjoy a drink or two in the evening looking at the view, fire, or stars.

Is playing music or a video on speaker with your phone really a problem? I get amplified with an external speaker might be an issue, but limiting to headphones only is pretty ridiculous.

Lets not try to control every little thing people do just because it could be abused or disrespectful, that's similar to banning axes because people could chop live trees. Getting carried away is just a good way to have all of your arguments ignored.
Pinetree
distinguished member(12562)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished membermaster membermaster member
 
07/16/2018 04:18PM
I am not asking for limiting radio,but there is zero reason what I experienced on Gabro,a radio basting wide open you could hear on the whole lake,like you were at a beach. I will admit that is rare and if Rangers caught them they would of been fined and better yet kicked out of the BWCA.
Your radio should never be heard by another party.
LuvMyBell
distinguished member(5033)distinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberdistinguished memberpower member
 
07/16/2018 06:38PM
Pinetree: "I am not asking for limiting radio,but there is zero reason what I experienced on Gabro,a radio basting wide open you could hear on the whole lake,like you were at a beach. I will admit that is rare and if Rangers caught them they would of been fined and better yet kicked out of the BWCA.
Your radio should never be heard by another party."


I agree that loud music in the BW is not something I'd want to experience, but Pinetree's observation that had rangers come by, they would have kicked the offenders out of the BW. Would they? Serious question.

I've just reread the official rules and regulations and don't see anything about noise, from radios, kids playing or any other kind.

At a minimum, I would think that noise ordinances enacted by almost everywhere I have lived, or state parks I've visited, 10pm silence....would be in effect.

Is there a BWCA noise ordinance in the official rules? I'm not talking about right or wrong or personal feelings, but an actual policy that can legally be enforced.
LuvMyBell
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07/16/2018 06:38PM
Pinetree: "I am not asking for limiting radio,but there is zero reason what I experienced on Gabro,a radio basting wide open you could hear on the whole lake,like you were at a beach. I will admit that is rare and if Rangers caught them they would of been fined and better yet kicked out of the BWCA.
Your radio should never be heard by another party."


I agree that loud music in the BW is not something I'd want to experience, but Pinetree's observation that had rangers come by, they would have kicked the offenders out of the BW. Would they? Serious question.

I've just reread the official rules and regulations and don't see anything about noise, from radios, kids playing or any other kind.

At a minimum, I would think that noise ordinances enacted by almost everywhere I have lived, or state parks I've visited, 10pm silence....would be in effect.

Is there a BWCA noise ordinance in the official rules? I'm not talking about right or wrong or personal feelings, but an actual policy that can legally be enforced.
07/17/2018 06:19AM
A1t2o: "More like weed out a majority of people."

Exactly.... at least those who aren't willing to abide by LNT principles.

I have zero problem with people who want to have a drink or two, it is just hard to make a ruling that would differentiate between those and those who go to party.

We just had a great trip tainted by loud music the last night. Didn't ruin our trip, just disappointing.

Would be interested in hearing your ideas as to how to "New rules" would make the bwca better.
inspector13
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07/17/2018 08:04AM
LuvMyBell: "Is there a BWCA noise ordinance in the official rules? I'm not talking about right or wrong or personal feelings, but an actual policy that can legally be enforced."
Sort of. The BWCAW is covered by the rules governing all Federal lands. The specific rule would be 261.4d (Disorderly conduct.) Obviously, it would be open to interpretation by the witnessing officer.

mutz
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07/17/2018 02:51PM
Can’t imagine anyone being kicked out because of noise without a warning first, a ticket on the second incident. As a law enforcement officer we went to many loud noise complaints always gave a warning the first time, Subsequent complaints would normally mean tickets issued.
Pinetree
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07/17/2018 05:05PM
mutz: "Can’t imagine anyone being kicked out because of noise without a warning first, a ticket on the second incident. As a law enforcement officer we went to many loud noise complaints always gave a warning the first time, Subsequent complaints would normally mean tickets issued. "

I think it would depend on the the situation and intent,if the radio was blasting like a beer drinking beach party I think they should because of the location(BWCA) the people would should of known better and do but just don't care.


If someone was blasting a radio inside a resturant or neighborhood at 3 am a situation they should know better and especially if people effected ask them to turn it down.

I know they have ticketed and kicked out people being obnoxious and using swear language at other canoe people as they passed.

As you know I think the attitude of the people and real intent would be a deciding factor many times.
 
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