Mostly because I can't plan so far in advance, I have never applied for permits on the first day they are available in January. Of course, recently that has created a problem but now the Permit Alert System on this board is a god-send.

I now have three permits right around the time and EPs that I wanted, so thank you Adam for this wonderful set up.

Also, as the alerts come in - and they are frequent - I have noticed a few interesting situations:
1) Several times, a slew of permits comes available all on the same day, i.e. six on Saganaga or three on Snowbank and so on,

2) Sometimes I notice a bunch of availabilities at the same EP, but on several consecutive days like Moose R North on 6/20, 6/21, 6/22, 6/23.

It would seem our suspicions of those rookies hoarding permits in January are correct.

Finally, I have noticed permits coming available to EPs I have never even thought of trying and now my interest is piqued for some new adventures.

I wonder if this has something to do with it? Lifted this off the Facebook site.

Agree, OneMatch, the permit alert system is helpful. I was watching the Spice Lake closures carefully to see if we needed to change our route. Thankfully it won't be an issue and less than three weeks before we head out!

It seems a portion of the hoarding could be solved if they enforced the overlapping permits better. I suppose if a group is going and they each pull a permit for one day of the week, for example, then only one person keeps the permit when the group figures out when they are going...couldn't that be a retroactive punishment?

It's great you were able to get permits that work for you. Happy paddling!

That is interesting how a slew opens up all at once. I would be ok with having it non refundable. Like another stated, you are out 30-50 dollars if an emergency happens. Not that bad but would make permit hoarding a little more costly for whoever likes wasting money.

Yesterday I got about 4 alerts in less than an hour for LIS EP permits opening up over 4 consecutive days. Seems like someone had a slew reserved, then dumped them all. Seems to be a little too coincidental.

Something needs to be changed in the system. I’ve read of people reserving many permits in one area then canceling them at the last minute to almost guarantee that no one will be in the area at that time.

Savage Voyageur: "Something needs to be changed in the system. I’ve read of people reserving many permits in one area then canceling them at the last minute to almost guarantee that no one will be in the area at that time. "

Yeah buying an additional 10 would only cost you 40 dollars and guarantee no competition for camping (pending the lakes quota obviously).... I can see why one would do it. Even if you did per username... you can just create multiple accounts and if it was per name then you could have friends help donate their ID stuff.

Only way I could see to stop it is to make it like a 20 dollar non refundable or something like that.

x2jmorris: "

Savage Voyageur: "Something needs to be changed in the system. I’ve read of people reserving many permits in one area then canceling them at the last minute to almost guarantee that no one will be in the area at that time. "

...I can see why one would do it. "

You recently asked me in another thread why someone would do this, specifically what the benefit would be. Glad you've come around to understanding why someone, or some group, would do this.

I've been hearing this rumor so much over the last few years from many different people. The general claim is that permits and campsites on Recreation.gov are being purchased with the intent of not using them. A fishing guide last spring made this claim to me regarding a wilderness area in Montana. Two FS campground hosts in different states also made this claim to me when both times my family had entire campgrounds practically to ourselves at popular locations during peak season.

YaMarVa: "

x2jmorris: "

Savage Voyageur: "Something needs to be changed in the system. I’ve read of people reserving many permits in one area then canceling them at the last minute to almost guarantee that no one will be in the area at that time. "

...I can see why one would do it. "

You recently asked me in another thread why someone would do this, specifically what the benefit would be. Glad you've come around to understanding why someone, or some group, would do this.

I've been hearing this rumor so much over the last few years from many different people. The general claim is that permits and campsites on Recreation.gov are being purchased with the intent of not using them. A fishing guide last spring made this claim to me regarding a wilderness area in Montana. Two FS campground hosts in different states also made this claim to me when both times my family had entire campgrounds practically to ourselves at popular locations during peak season."

Haha yes I did. It was such a weird idea to me at first but since that comment I have read a little bit more about it and now it does make a lot of sense.

@x2jmorris - I do wonder if there is actually a systematic plan to do this, or just plain hyperbole based on data showing reserved permits not being issued. We might not ever know.

I swear I read the FS is aware of Permit Hoarding and it’s pretty easy to track. What are they going to do about it?

The easy fix is higher initial cost to reserve and no refunds for permits dropped within 4-6 weeks. Quetico had a serious issue with this hoarding problem until they made the penalty higher for cancelling. Probably early 2000’s. It doesn’t break the bank, but to do multiple days in a row/or multiple of the same entry it get’s expensive quick. It seems to have worked for the Q…pretty quickly.

The current system almost makes you hoard just to get a permit. Many people on this site talk about booking 3-4 permits when the final intention is to take 1-2 trips. If you don’t do that though you might not get a permit. The honor system simply doesn’t work.

T

After the season, we will see if we can mine the data for patterns. I don't believe an organization is behind this as some speculated. If it is happening, it is selfish groups of individuals who should be banned from the BWCA.

I think they should up the cancellation fee to $50 minimum. I realize this could create a hardship for some, but maybe we can provide some cancellation insurance as a group.

adam: "
After the season, we will see if we can mine the data for patterns. I don't believe an organization is behind this as some speculated. If it is happening, it is selfish groups of individuals who should be banned from the BWCA.


I think they should up the cancellation fee to $50 minimum. I realize this could create a hardship for some, but maybe we can provide some cancellation insurance as a group.




"

$100 pre-pay reservation fee. Refundable if cancelled more than 30 days in advance OR to be partially recouped when you show up to get your permit.

Re: organizations. I’d be curious to hear the trends in motor permits as there have long been rumors of activist orgs sabotaging those permits, with no proof I’ve ever heard of.

$38 non-refundable fee. That’ll do it. That is the magic amount as that’s the cheapest price for which a permit can be booked. It’s not so financially punishing but not cheap either.

scottiebaldwin: "$38 non-refundable fee. That’ll do it. That is the magic amount as that’s the cheapest price for which a permit can be booked. It’s not so financially punishing but not cheap either. "

I think that would be enough and seems fair enough

OneMatch: "It would seem our suspicions of those rookies hoarding permits in January are correct."

First, I agree that the permit alert system that Adam has created is wonderful!

That said, I am not sure why you are assuming the folks doing this are rookies. To me, I assume they have done it many times as it is easy, cheap and it works.

I can think of many better words than rookies to describe these folks...

scottiebaldwin: "$38 non-refundable fee. That’ll do it. That is the magic amount as that’s the cheapest price for which a permit can be booked. It’s not so financially punishing but not cheap either. "

This.

Ontario Parks solved this by making your initial reservation fee $100. And there is a penalty if you cancel, the fee increases as your date approaches. I can only assume there is a fair amount of politics involved in the fact that the USFS has done nothing to alleviate this problem. Here is Ontario’s penalty structure.

SNIP from their website….

If you cancel or shorten your stay before the arrival date, you will be charged a 10-50% penalty fee on the total value of the cancelled or shortened nights. The percentage penalty is based on how long your reservation has been held:

Reservation held Penalty fee
1 month or less = 10% of total campsite fees paid at reservation
Greater than 1 month up to 2 months = 20% of total campsite fees paid at reservation
Greater than 2 months up to 3 months = 30% of total campsite fees paid at reservation
Greater than 3 months up to 4 months = 40% of total campsite fees paid at reservation
Greater than 4 months = 50% of total campsite fees paid at reservation

Granted, my thoughts are assuming that there is a lot of funny business going on with the booking of permits. I hope we find out after they run the metrics for unfilled permits. A sneaky idea just entered my mind as I wrote that last sentance... Is the the forestry service OK with that and maybe looking the other way on this issue? Anyway, I like Adam's idea of an insurance/donation option to help members that cancel for emergencies. Maybe for medical issues... Not so much for schedule conflicts that just came up. I see going to the BWCA as a commitment. I think there should be a punitive aspect here. I'd like to see a $200.00 reservation fee that is refunded if cancelled more than 30 days in advance or when you pick up your permit.

A flip side to permit hoarding appears to be site squatting - although I don't know if this happens in the BWCA as much as state/national parks. "Fully Reserved" campgrounds are often half empty, so I think many people are now in the habit of just showing up without a reservation and grabbing an open site without paying a fee at all. When it's your site that's taken, the squatters will point to all the nice open spots down by the parking lot and garbage bins. Good luck if it's after 4pm and the staff has gone for the day. There's clearly zero penalty for this behavior either.

NotLight: "A flip side to permit hoarding appears to be site squatting - although I don't know if this happens in the BWCA as much as state/national parks. "Fully Reserved" campgrounds are often half empty, so I think many people are now in the habit of just showing up without a reservation and grabbing an open site without paying a fee at all. When it's your site that's taken, the squatters will point to all the nice open spots down by the parking lot and garbage bins. Good luck if it's after 4pm and the staff has gone for the day. There's clearly zero penalty for this behavior either.
"

This (sort of, with less drama) happened to us a number of years ago on a north shore camping weekend. We booked a walk-in site with 2 tent pads at Spirit Mountain's campground to share with another couple for that wife's first camping trip. We arrived from the cities just after dark to find our campsite taken and a group around the fire. We told them we reserved it specifically because we had two tents and needed them to move. Thankfully they didn't put up much of a fuss, and we already had a fire going for us.

The kicker was that as we carried our gear back and forth from car to campsite, we encountered a skunk that decided to bed down right next to the trail to our campsite. Not wanting to startle it, we decided to try to enter our campsite from the back-side through an adjacent campsite. When we got to the adjacent campsite, guess who we encountered? The same people we just evicted setting up their new campsite! Explaining to them the skunk situation, we asked if we could proceed through their campsite into ours. They let us come through, so I concluded they weren't all that bad. :)